72 replies to this topic

[Richard Jenkins]

Hello again fellow doyens!

I got a e-mail today from someone wanting to know as much as possible about the crash in which Juan Manuel Fangio suffered serious injuries, ruling him out of the 1952 season. In particular, what lap, what the race positions were & the race situation, the "fault" or reason for the crash, the precise injuries sustained, as much about the crash as possible.
I can fill out some of the gaps, but not all, so I've put it to your yourselves to try & get a full an answer of the event as I possibly can


and, if this has already been discussed, would someone be kind enough to point me in the general direction of the said thread?

Thanks in advance,
Richie

[fines]

From memory, he crashed at the first (?) Lesmo on either the first or the second lap, somewhere in mid-field since he started from the back of the grid. Reason was driver error because of fatigue, and injuries included some broken bones in his neck.

[Geza Sury]

Let me see what Mike Lang has to say about this accident: (I finally bought the first three volumes of Grand Prix! for 80 GBP )

The Maserati factory revitalised their attack during the season by introducing their A6GCM. This 6-cylinder car had an engine capacity of 1960cc (75x75 mm) capable of developing 165 bhp and incorporated a simple tubular chassis with rigid rear axle, similar in desing to the 'San Remo' Formula 1 cars. Their European debut was in the non-championship Autodrome Grand Prix at Monza but unfortunately Fangio, who was driving one of these cars, crashed on the second lap of the race breaking his neck and as a result put himself out of racing for the rest of the year. The accident, however, was not blamed on the car for Fangio was suffering from exhaustion following a 500 mile drive from another race meeting.

[Wolf]

Well, I have a question too... I know Fangio attended a race in Ireland and had arrangements with another driver who was to give him an air-lift to Monza. The driver-pilot forgot and took off w/o Fangio who then had to drive all the way from Paris (IIRC) where his plane had to land. WHo was the driver who forgot him?

[ensign14]

Bira.

[Roger Clark]

Bira left early because his car retired on the first lap. Fangio caught a plane to London and another to Paris. Finding all the flights to Italy cancelled he drove to Lyon with Louis Rosier. Rosier lent Fangio his car to drive on to Monza. He arrived at Monza at two in the afternoon, at half past two he was racing and at three he was in hospital.

The accident happened at the second Lesmo, he hit a straw bale and was thrown out. He was unconcious for many days. For six days he lay in bed with traction applied to his spine by means of a weight. After three weeks he was able in change position in bed. At this point they put a plaster cast on him making him completely immobile. On 3 September they removed the cast. On 7 September he was starter at the Italian Grand Prix.

[Geza Sury]

Found it! This is the whole story of the accident:

Fangio signed to drive for Maserati in 1952, but the car wasn't ready for the season opening Swiss GP. Fangio started two non-championship F1 races driving BRMs, he retired from both. He desperately needed some success that's why he decided to go to Monza. As Roger said, all flights had been cancelled due to bad weather, so Fangio went to the railway station. After studying the timetable, he came to the conclusion that it's not possible to arrive to Monza by train. Then he asked himself a question: 'Are you Fangio or what?' So he decided to drive to Italy by Rosier's Renault. He arrived to Monza two hours before the start. Having missed qualifying he had to start from the back row. My source says that Fangio lost control of the car at Serraglio, the slight kink after Lesmo. 'It lasted only three or four seconds - but it seemed to be an eternity' - Fangio quoted later. 'The sound of sreaming tyres, straw-bales, trees. Light, shadows. I was thrown out of the car and hit a tree. That's how it feels like when someone dies, I thought. I could smell the scent of grass and ground. It reminded me of my hometown, where I spent my childhood. Then I lost my consciousness.'

This is my rough translation from German to English. Boy, it was tough!

[Ray Bell]

With reference to the Nuvolari v Fangio question in another thread...

Was his start on Sept 7 against doctors' advice?

[Doug Nye]

Roger's quite right - and Ray, Fangio was THE starter (man with flag) at the Italian GP, not A starter as in competing.

Back in May 1952, Maserati had just completed its latest A6GCM Formula 2 team cars and entered them relatively late for the Monza Autodrome GP on Sunday June 8, 1952. Fangio was already committed to drive the BRM V16 in the Libre race at Dundrod, Ulster, on Saturday, June 7. 'B.Bira' was already intending to compete in both events. Fangio agreed with 'Bira' that the Prince would fly him in his private aeroplane to Milan, departing Belfast immediately after the conclusion of the Ulster Trophy race.

'Bira' was a splendid little chap in many ways - but reliability was not one of his strong points. 'Bira' was left without a drive I believe pre-race, so he upped and went early to Italy. Fangio's BRM then folded early in the race, and he cadged a lift with Louis Rosier to the local airport and they caught a flight to London. Fangio tried desperately to find a London-Milan flight, London-Turin, London to anywhere in northern Italy - there were none, all cancelled due to bad weather conditions.

London-Paris was the only available option. They did that, flying through some fantastic storms over the Channel and northern France, and touched down in Paris around 6am, nerves a'jangle. Fangio sought a Paris-Milan flight. Nothing available. Rosier then offered him a lift as far as Lyons, from where he (Rosier) could get a lift to his home in Clermont, leaving his car - a Renault - with JMF who could then drive himself to Monza in it.

The only meal JMF managed to snatch was when they swopped the car at Lyons or at Clermont, I'm not sure which. JMF then blitzed his way over the Mt Cenis Pass into Italy and as Roger has related was always fond of explaining how he got to Monza around 2pm, by 2.30 he was racing and by 3pm he was tucked up in a hospital bed with a broken neck...

In his biography he recalled that he took a shower, changed into his overalls, took some aspirins (!) and climbed into his car on the starting grid - the other drivers having signed an agreement to let him (as reigning World Champion) start from the back of the grid, sans practice. He claimed to have passed 6 cars on the opening lap, and then n lap 2 at the second Lesmo Corner - I'm pretty sure this is correct,not at the Serraglio - he misjudged his line, clipped an apex barrier and ricocheted wide on the exit where he let his car hit the straw bale barrier, thinking it would be soft enough to bounce him straight.

Sadly, those bales had been in place for ages, alternately soaked and compacted by rain, then baked rock hard by the sun. His car simply smashed against the rock-hard bales and began to somersault. He landed on his head - fortunately protected by his new crash helmet, just made compulsory by the FIA.

He broke his left thumb, compressed the vertebrae and discs in his neck and an X-ray revealed a previous neck injury which he thought had been inflicted during the 1948 BA-Caracas race (see below). He reckoned the thumb fracture left a permanent mark - his left thumb moved through a strange-looking orbit - while treatment to his neck absolutely cured him of the post-race headaches which had plagued him prior to the Monza accident.

The experience convinced him NEVER to race again without a decent previous night's sleep - and no nookie.

His only really serious previous accident had been that suffered in the 1948 Gran Premio de la America del Sur when he was driving while, frankly, knackered - and at altitude and in fog in the village of Huanchasco, Peru, he rolled his Chevrolet and his co-driver Daniel Urrutia was killed. Urrutia had been thrown out in the roll-over, and he died from a cervical fracture and basal fractures to the skull. Urrutia left a wife and two daughters, and his wife was in a maternity ward in BA at that time, about to give birth to a son...

JMF took this very hard, very hard indeed. He only continued racing after deep agonising - and after the '52 Monza accident would never ever race again when already tired out.

DCN

[lustigson]

I've just started reading in a nice little book covering all the F1 seasons from 1950 until 2002. For the 52 season I stumbled upon Fangio's accident. That made me think: what if Fangio hadn't survived that crash? Who would have taken the titles in 54 through 57?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by lustigson
I've just started reading in a nice little book covering all the F1 seasons from 1950 until 2002. For the 52 season I stumbled upon Fangio's accident. That made me think: what if Fangio hadn't survived that crash? Who would have taken the titles in 54 through 57?

Interesting. 54 is the joker really - very tight between the Farnham Flyer and the Pampas Bull for 2nd there - I'll let my head rule my heart and say that Gonzalez could've been Champion ;)

Moss would've certainly been in a Merc for '55, so let's chalk that one up to him with minimal fuss.
56 - well, that boils down to SCM vs Collins vs Behra, the rest really were nowhere that year - I would like to think Collins was at his peak that year and might've pipped Stirling... 57 is less clear-cut, Vanwalls coming good against new Ferraris though so probably SCM again.


So in my version of history, Gonzalez adds a championship, as does Collins; Moss gains two.

[Ray Bell]

Beg to differ...

Fangio's death in '52 wouldn't have prevented Mercedes-Benz having a first class driver in '54... and Moss wasn't yet in the running.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by lustigson
I've just started reading in a nice little book covering all the F1 seasons from 1950 until 2002.

What's the title of that book?

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Fangio's death in '52 wouldn't have prevented Mercedes-Benz having a first class driver in '54... and Moss wasn't yet in the running.

So, Ascari to Mercedes, then, for another two championships. He'd probably have rejoined Ferrari for yet another in '56. 1957 not so clear cut, but probably Ascari again. Six championships in a row . . .

[RSNS]

Regarding Fangio’s Monza accident, there is an interesting follow up. After the accident, Fangio had serious doubts about being able to cope with racing cars.

In Argentina, Fangio was in the paddok during a race. He was having serious doubts about his nerve when one of the Galvez brothers suggested he drive a couple of laps in his car. Fangio accepted, and found he could still do it.

When Fangio stepped out of the car, Galvez just asked him ‘still goes, he?’. It was not clear if he meant the car or the driver. But Fangio understood it quite well. Their handshake was so strong it actually hurt. Fangio never forgot the tact and sympathy of Galvez.

I’m writing all this from memory. Don’t remember the circuit or the car.

.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
What's the title of that book?

Formula One, Unseen Archives. 382 pages. Written by Tim Hill, photographs by the Daily Mail. Published by Parragon, 4 Queen Street, Bath, BA1 1HE, United Kingdom. ISBN 1-40541-122-8.

I bought it at an English Book Store in Amsterdam.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Tim Murray
So, Ascari to Mercedes, then, for another two championships. He'd probably have rejoined Ferrari for yet another in '56. 1957 not so clear cut, but probably Ascari again. Six championships in a row . . .

I might well be wrong, but I get the distinct impression that Ascari was too much of a patriot for that. And that he was welded to the Ferrari marque...

Maybe I was too hasty in my post, perhaps Moss would have started to shine. Let's look at what Maserati might have done that might have elevated the Englishman to a higher plane in time to attract the attention of the M-B crew... and to be attracted by them.

There is the prospect, of course, the M-B might have done what they did pre-war and had a session at the Nurburgring with a bunch of cars and a number of invited hopefuls. Would, perhaps, the British arm of the company have noted the popularity and evident skills of Moss and put pressure on for him to be tried out.

Then there is the question of how Moss might have developed had he come forward that little bit sooner into the team, moderated by the question of how much he really did learn from following closely in Fangio's wheeltracks during 1955.

Overall, I don't see Ascari in a Mercedes. Taruffi is much more likely, Marimon and Gonzalez would have gone back to the Argentine after Fangio's death, maybe Behra or Schell?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by lustigson

Formula One, Unseen Archives. 382 pages. Written by Tim Hill, photographs by the Daily Mail. Published by Parragon, 4 Queen Street, Bath, BA1 1HE, United Kingdom. ISBN 1-40541-122-8.

I bought it at an English Book Store in Amsterdam.

Before you ask, Geza:

Some good pics, but some of the text leaves a little to be desired in terms of accuracy Some of the dating of the pictures is a year or two out too, but I had fun checking them!

Lots of "behind the scenes" pictures too - drivers at play etc.

[Geza Sury]

Thanks Lustigson and Richard, I really appriciate your help. Those who live in Western Europe (especially in the UK of course) have the opportunity to go to a bookshop and browse through a book before they purchase it. I don't have this kind of opportunity, because you can't buy English books in Hungary. So please be patient with me if I come up with new questions again and again

[lustigson]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Some good pics, but some of the text leaves a little to be desired in terms of accuracy.

Indeed the pics are quite good. The text might nog always be accurate, but it tends to be a little bit concise. I would have liked a bit more detail, but I imagine that's quite hard when you write about 50 years plus of racing.

[fines]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


I might well be wrong, but I get the distinct impression that Ascari was too much of a patriot for that. And that he was welded to the Ferrari marque...

Maybe I was too hasty in my post, perhaps Moss would have started to shine. Let's look at what Maserati might have done that might have elevated the Englishman to a higher plane in time to attract the attention of the M-B crew... and to be attracted by them.

There is the prospect, of course, the M-B might have done what they did pre-war and had a session at the Nurburgring with a bunch of cars and a number of invited hopefuls. Would, perhaps, the British arm of the company have noted the popularity and evident skills of Moss and put pressure on for him to be tried out.

Then there is the question of how Moss might have developed had he come forward that little bit sooner into the team, moderated by the question of how much he really did learn from following closely in Fangio's wheeltracks during 1955.

Overall, I don't see Ascari in a Mercedes. Taruffi is much more likely, Marimon and Gonzalez would have gone back to the Argentine after Fangio's death, maybe Behra or Schell?

What about Farina? He was lined up with Benz in 1951, before Perón insisted on Fangio getting the drive. If Ascari wasn't available (and I concur that's entirely possible) Farina would've been first choice, no doubt. And I believe he would've been World Champion, again. Then Moss in 1955, and 1956 as well. 1957? Hmm, that's another question...

[Doug Nye]

I think any reports of Farina being seriously considered by Daimler-Benz as a driver for 1951 or '52 are deceptive nonsense.

Their marketing people might have seen some merit in employing the reigning World Champion but marketing, schmarketing...

Neubauer, Uhlenhaut, Caracciola, Lang etc were very familiar with the ageing and rugged Italian - and with his reputation not only as a driver but also as an often disruptive and intensely selfish influence within a team. The organisation was also very keen upon promoting (in an albeit low-key manner) a postwar resurgence of German motor sporting achievement.

Farina was pretty much all-Latin...and would have provided little that they required. They would have been fully aware of that.

DCN

[Ray Bell]

If that's the case, Doug, who do you reckon would have got the lead seat?

Do you see anyone else on the horizon of the time who could have replaced Fangio?

[RSNS]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
[...]Farina was pretty much all-Latin...and would have provided little that they required. They would have been fully aware of that.
DCN

Well, Fangio was a Latin too: he was just an Italian born in Argentina (a Latin country). Or do you mean his driving skills overcame that whereas Farina's didn't?

[paulhooft]

If that's the case, Doug, who do you reckon would have got the lead seat?

Do you see anyone else on the horizon of the time who could have replaced Fangio?


Another argentinian:

Froilan Gonzales??

[Ray Bell]

I've already hypothesised, Paul, that this couldn't happen...

Did not Gonzalez retreat to the Argentine after Marimon died? How much more quickly would he and Marimon done the same if the same fate had befallen Fangio?

I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that a Brit would have taken the seat, possibly Collins, while Taruffi remains a likely candidate. But my question about a massive Nurburgring test day remains unanswered...

[D-Type]

Remembering Mercedes only entered for half of the 1954 season. And assuming that everything else panned out much the same and Ascari went to Lancia anyway which ruled him out of 1954 and 1955.

Without Fangio, would Mercedes have pushed Lang, who could have regained his form by the end of 1954 and taken the 1955 title and then retired along with Mercedes.
This would have left Gonzalez in a Ferrari take the 1954 title and then retire after Marimon's death.
Then 1956 would have been between Moss in the Maserati and Collins in the Ferrari.
Ferrari would still have been out of it in 1957 and Moss in the Vanwall would have won from Behra in the Maserati.
And 1958 would have been the same as it was.

As we're in the world of IF, there are other if's around, principally if fatal accidents hadn't occurred.

If Hermann hadn't had his Monaco crash how would he have developed? Particularly if you couple this with if Le Mans 1955 hadn't happened could we have seen Hermann as 1956 champion in a 4WD Mercedes?
If Ascari had survived, would he have taken the 1956 and 1957 titles in a Lancia?
Gonzalez taking 1954 in Ferrari and Mercedes and 1955 in Mercedes from Ascari in a Lancia?
Castelloti taking 1956 in a Lancia-Ferrari?
Marimon taking 1957 in a Maserati?

[scheivlak]

Forgive me my ignorance - I don't know that much about the fifties; why isn't the winner of the 1953 French GP, a top five finisher in the WDC of 1952, 1953 and 1954 and a WDC-to-be mentioned at all in these speculations?

[Doug Nye]

Remember that Fangio was a double-plus for Daimler-Benz - already, plainly, a dazzlingly capable driver, a past World Champion, an extremely sober, discreet character, and one whose promotability offered an influential key to unlocking a potentially extremely attractive South American market.

DCN

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Remember that Fangio was a double-plus for Daimler-Benz - already, plainly, a dazzlingly capable driver, a past World Champion, an extremely sober, discreet character, and one whose promotability offered an influential key to unlocking a potentially extremely attractive South American market.

DCN

Wouldn't the influx of rich German-speaking gentlemen a few years before have aided D-B's penetration of the South American market in the early 50s anyway?

True and somewhat politically incorrect story follows.

I worked in an Internet startup in the mid 90s. The directors were a pair of bright young lads who'd pretty much been given their chance by BT to do web and E-Commerce work for their big customers, but the "real" money behind the business came from two sources. One of these I'd rather not talk about at this point (but let's say that if those guys liked racing they would've loved IMSA, and leave it at that?). The other was the fiancee of one of the directors. She was a rather Teutonic sort of lady, related to the former Bavarian Royal Family in fact.

At the wedding reception one of the staff, drunk, approaches her.

"von Wittelsbach - that's not an English name is it?"
"No, it's a German name."
"And you're German then?"
"No, I've got an Argentinian passport."
"Oh, did your family emigrate there?"
"Yes"
A pause as he digests the information. He's not exactly a history graduate.
"Er, Was it in 1945?"
"Yes"
"Cor - was your grandad, er... you know?"
"Of course....."

Some pints later the groom thanks the hapless inquirer for "clearing the air"...

[dmj]

Without Fangio Mercedes wouldn't be able to put dream duo in the same car for 1955 Le Mans. Looking for another solutions, and with someone other as lead team driver, maybe Levegh's crash wouldn't happen. Then MB maybe wouldn't withdraw from racing and through their fundings and technical brilliance they would probably dominate F1 in late Fifties. Conservative as they usually are, they would stick with front engined cars but power and reliability would postpone success of mid-engined garagistes. Dissapointed with lack of success, Jack Brabham would go back to Australia without single WDC win... Looking for the most lucrative US market, MB would sign both Dan Gurney and Phil Hill as works drivers and both would become champions. Their success would trigger interest in F1 in USA, Indy 500 would remain in calendar and races would be split fifty-fifty between North America and Europe. As MB would simoultanously dominate sportscar series and Le Mans, Ferrari would bankrupt around 1960, not able to achieve legendary enough status to sell enough road cars to finance competition. Actually it would be bought by tractor manufacturer Ferruccio Lamborghini, who would immediately withdraw Ferrari from any kind of competition. Meanwhile, without Fangio's influence, no South American would ever put a significant impact on international racing scene, although Karmann Ghia and other souped up Beetle races in Brasil and Argentina would be very exciting, with Fittipaldis, Pace, Reutemann, later Piquet and Senna competing. After all, Mercedes would withdraw from racing after rising German star Taffy Von Trips was killed at an early Sixties Monzapolis race... Thus leaving F1 to fierce competition between Porsche and a few other (Ford?) factory teams. Small teams, privateers, Cossworth brigade? Never heard of it... And yes, Foyt would win a championship or two. And Amon would never win a WDC race... call it destiny!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by dmj
And Amon would never win a WDC race... call it destiny!

Blimey, that's a pretty radical alternative history.

Wouldn't Amon start driving a secondhand W196 in NZ at the age of 16 and come up to Europe to drive a clapped-out old Lotus 16 with a Borgward in the front before joining the BRM team just before the Wilks brothers took it over after Alfred Owen gave up in disgust in '62 - his first championship in the Rover gas turbine car in '64 was one of the greatest of all time! (Er - where's the Fantasy Thread gone...)

[dmj]

Don't forget that America vs European factory teams nature of F1 would force small British entrants out of it... That way, pop music would remain only profitable UK industry... So young people would switch from racing to music. JYS would skip this transition and win Olympic medal in shooting but James Hunt would certainly make a great pop career, with at least 6 US top 20 singles... he even wouldn't have to change appearance for that! For Mansell I'm not so sure he would succeed, although if Scatman John eventually did, than all is possible...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by dmj
Don't forget that America vs European factory teams nature of F1 would force small British entrants out of it... That way, pop music would remain only profitable UK industry... So young people would switch from racing to music. JYS would skip this transition and win Olympic medal in shooting but James Hunt would certainly make a great pop career, with at least 6 US top 20 singles... he even wouldn't have to change appearance for that! For Mansell I'm not so sure he would succeed, although if Scatman John eventually did, than all is possible...

Noooo, Young Master James would've ended up in a prog rock band full of public schoolboys smoking Camberwell Carrots. Early stint in Soft Machine playing trumpet (he'd've fitted in beautifully alongside the likes of Kevin Ayers - two peas from a pod really!), possibly a move to vocals for Genesis after Gabriel left... then back to the trumpet playing bizarre fusion alongside Miles Davis in the 80s.

[oldtimer]

The 'what ifs' are interesting if not a little wild, but I think it emphasises how much Fangio carried the MB team in 1954. Without him, in the circumstances that arose in the season, their results would have been much less stellar. He had to carry the car at Silverstone, Monza and Spain.

[Ray Bell]

Nobody listens!

Remember, if Fangio had died in '52, Gonzales would have gone home! Marimon too...

And Ascari stood little chance in '54 because the Lancia's handling was pretty evil. Maybe they wouldn't have fixed it by '55 either, unless they changed tyre companies... which I suppose they would have done.

Some fanciful stuff here... but regarding the question on Hawthorn, Mossy reckons he had some off days, maybe everyone else agrees.

'57 would probably have gone to Maserati, but probably with Moss at the wheel. If he hadn't been put into a Benz in '55 (surely he would have, because somebody would have given him a chance in '53 while casting around for a Fangio replacement?), he'd still be chasing his first win and would rather the proven Maser to the up and coming Vanwall, no matter how persuasive Tony V was.

[dmj]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Noooo, Young Master James would've ended up in a prog rock band full of public schoolboys smoking Camberwell Carrots. Early stint in Soft Machine playing trumpet (he'd've fitted in beautifully alongside the likes of Kevin Ayers - two peas from a pod really!), possibly a move to vocals for Genesis after Gabriel left... then back to the trumpet playing bizarre fusion alongside Miles Davis in the 80s.

Pete, I have to disagree here. He'd certainly start with a Cantebury stlyle group, maybe even Soft Machine but soon he'd find a good producer and enjoyed a brief stint as a pop star, until punk appears. And, once realizing how much more chicks he could get that way, he would never look back, recording from time to time. No big chart success anymore but faithfull audience, mostly female. Genesis? No way, to glamourous, too fancy dressed for him... And in 80s instead of album with Miles Davis he'd have a critically acclaimed comeback (even mildly commercially successful), recording an album together with that cult Irish folk singer John Watson... (produced by Ron Dennis, of course.)

[Ray Bell]

What makes you all so sure that the rear engined revolution would have been stymied?

M-B's next trick for '56 was to be variable length inlet trumpets, not 4WD, and who's to know if they'd have come back anyway, Le Mans notwithstanding.

Their decision to pull out of that race was based on more than just the accident. They had been in the lead for some hours and thus had a moral victory under their belts. Having dominated '55 in GP racing with whomever they put in the saddle, they might have taken the same view. Wasn't it mentioned in their decision that they wanted to get the proficient engineers back into the production area?

And had they continued anyway, isn't it reasonable to conclude that efforts to beat them would be redoubled, especially by the Brits? Maybe there would have even been some development work done on the Godiva?

And I think Jack Brabham has shown clearly that he wouldn't have gone back to Australia without any fish in his basket. In fact, looking at a post here last night I was further reinforced in my view that he's always been underrated. By me as well as others...

Lemme see... that was about he and Rindt somewhere... it's in the Chinese circuit thread.

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
What makes you all so sure that the rear engined revolution would have been stymied?

IMHO, the rear-engined revolution was greatly aided by 300km races run on Avgas

[Roger Clark]

Ray may be right about Gonzales and Mairimon, but he is wrong about the Lancia's tyres. They used Pirellis, which were the best available at the time. The problem with the D50's handling stemmed from its weight distribution which made for a very twitchy car with sudden breakaway. Ferriari sorted it out in 1956.

I think you can rule out Hawthorn as a Mercedes driver. He made no secret of his anti-German feelings.

The Mercedes driver trials before the war to find promising newcomers, not the leading driver for the team.

I'm not sure about Ray's statement:

Their decision to pull out of that race (Le Mans) was based on more than just the accident.

Taking it literally, the decision to withdraw from Le Mans was based wholly on the accident. If he meant the decision to withdraw from Grand Prix racing I thought that is was taken before Le Mans.

If Fangio had been unavailable, Mercedes would surely have stuck with Karl Kling as their leading driver for 1954. It would have been portrayed as a learning year. Kling would have done better than he actually did, and if he failed to win the championship it would not matter as he'd only raced for half the season. For 1955 they would have strengthened the team.

[Doug Nye]

Creative writing lecturers should be shown this thread as a master-class in what can happen if the right stimulus is applied to bright, interested and knowledgeable people! Fantastic....

DCN

[dmj]

Ray, don't take me too serious... I just made a scenario where MB continued to race after 1955. As for British constructors, there were (with exception of Vanwall and maybe BRM) fundamentally underfunded to compete against real professional outfits like MB. Both Cooper and Lotus would have had much tougher task if MB would be still involved in F1.
As for Jack Brabham, I don't think I undervalued him - actually, I had to put him off the scene if I wanted my alternative history of F1 to sound at least somewhat logical. What better praise I could give to someone? Basically I agree with you that Brabham wouldn't give it up easily but in the world of factory teams he might not be given a proper chance - his skills are sadly still sometimes doubted, as you said, and back then he surely wasn't regarded as much of a future champ... I don't believe he would be given a seat in any major team. In reality he built two teams around himself and won championships in both, not too unlikely to what admirers of a certain German driver so highly praise nowadays... So doubts of his greatness are still mystery to me, especially if we compare Hulme and his status in Team Brabham with status of Herbert, Irvine or Barichello...

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I think you can rule out Hawthorn as a Mercedes driver. He made no secret of his anti-German feelings.

Interesting! Any other drivers with the same feelings/opinions?

[fines]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I think any reports of Farina being seriously considered by Daimler-Benz as a driver for 1951 or '52 are deceptive nonsense.

No sir, he was actually signed to drive the No. 1 Benz in the Argentine! At first, the three cars were to be driven by Caracciola, Lang and Kling, but Carratsch declined the offer and Farina was contracted. There was a lot of ink spilled over these things in the German press of the time, but right now I don't have the time to dig it all up in a sensible way

Having said that, I believe you're right with your perception of Farina's potential influence within D-B. But he still was a great driver, and would've carried the day imho. Perhaps, like Fangio and Ferrari, this marriage wouldn't have lasted for very long though...;)

[marat]

After the refusal of Caracciola after he tested the cars in Germany, Farina was taken in the team and entered in the Buenos Aires race.
One explanation for his non appearance is that there were political pressure from Argentina to
have an argentine driver in the Mercedes team.
Fangio was originally entered in a Ferrari which was finaly driven by Oscar Galvez.

[doc540]

"The experience convinced him NEVER to race again without a decent previous night's sleep - and no nookie."

I had no idea the term was used internationally.

My provincial horizons continue to be broadened on TNF.

[marat]

Farina versus Mercedes.
The story became an "affront" for all the Italian press and when Farina asked a lot of money from
Mercedes, the german became angry...

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

I think you can rule out Hawthorn as a Mercedes driver. He made no secret of his anti-German feelings.

Where were these feelings expressed, and are there any records of them?

I have heard of nationalistic opinions being expressed by Hawthorn in the Jaguar/MB 1955 battles at Dunrod and Le Mans.

[Doug Nye]

I'm darned sure Uhlenhaut told me the press stories regarding Farina joining the team seriously were nonsense. I happen to suspect he was right. He had a habit of being so.

Whatever published reports might have appeared, I really don't think Farina was ever seriously considered by the racing department....by anybody there, in fact, other than Daimler-Benz's promotions people.

DCN

[marat]

Doug, Neubauer also tells the story in his memoirs.
He says that Mercedes payed 10000 Deutsch Mark to end the conflict, despite the fact that there was no contract with Farina.