124 replies to this topic

[Tech_Nut]

There's a very short piece in today's Autosport stating that the Italian authorities are at last releasing Senna's chassis and returning it to Williams.

I could never understand why Head & Newey were never allowed to do a thorough check of the car at the time of the accident. Anyway, now all these years later, does anyone think the team should conduct their own investigation on the car? After all, the inquiry's results were released years ago. There are hundreds (thousands?) of F1 forums on the web, and every one of them contains some kind of conspiracy/cover-up thread concerning the accident.

Myself, I would like to see the team do a proper examination (with independent observers present) to show once and for all that there was nothing wrong with the car itself. But maybe that would just stir up another hornet's nest?

[Breadmaster]

best to just brush it under the carpet i think....too many painful memorys......

[LittleChris]

IIRC Williams had the telemetry readouts so any examination would be purely physical. Given it's been the best part of 8 years since the accident and also that the car was locked away in a garage at Imola for sometime after the accident I would imagine that there would be a fair bit of corrosion etc , so how much valid information could be obtained is open to question.

[Pieter]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut

I could never understand why Head & Newey were never allowed to do a thorough check of the car at the time of the accident. Anyway, now all these years later, does anyone think the team should conduct their own investigation on the car? After all, the inquiry's results were released years ago. There are hundreds (thousands?) of F1 forums on the web, and every one of them contains some kind of conspiracy/cover-up thread concerning the accident.

This is what happens when authorities look for offenders in stead of causes.

The same kind of thing was pointed out by aviation weekly, on the crash of the Concorde in France, on why the British had found more information on the crash then the French, who were more busy conduction a legal investigation.

[rtcoman]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut

Yes, I know, this thread should be put in the RC forum


I disagree. I believe, just like another poster here, magic (?), that Ayrton Senna belongs to The Nostalgia Forum nowadays.

[Brian O Flaherty]

Frankly if there was anything found that they didn't want us to know about, then we would never hear about it. I dont trust anyone to do an internal investigation and publish un-edited results. I dont believe Williams would let independant observers in while they performed it, and any details released would be taken with a bucket of salt. Unfortunately futile. Weren't they given the chassis in the immediate aftermath at the time anyway ? Where they could have done many things to the car ? I thought I heard that before.
I'll take MS's account of what he saw as the cause, and what is generally believed to be the cause. The formation lap lowering the pressure of the tyres, thus lowering the ride of the car so that it tabogganed (sp?) off the track at the critical point. Something Senna had pointed out that weekend as a potentially dangerous situation. I'll stop now, I'm waffling

[fines]

Well, yes, a driver error.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut
There's a very short piece in today's Autosport stating that the Italian authorities are at last releasing Senna's chassis and returning it to Williams.

I could never understand why Head & Newey were never allowed to do a thorough check of the car at the time of the accident. Anyway, now all these years later, does anyone think the team should conduct their own investigation on the car? After all, the inquiry's results were released years ago. There are hundreds (thousands?) of F1 forums on the web, and every one of them contains some kind of conspiracy/cover-up thread concerning the accident.

Myself, I would like to see the team do a proper examination (with independent observers present) to show once and for all that there was nothing wrong with the car itself. But maybe that would just stir up another hornet's nest?

PH already said years ago there was no point in them looking at it because it would just be a pile of rust.

[614david]

If this is true, then i am gald that the car is being returned to the Williams team.
I sincerely hope though, that they treat it properly, and preserve it in it's current condition- not letting it disintegrate entirely, but not to restore it either.
Ayrton was killed a long time ago.
People are better left with their memories of him as they are now.
It has taken the best part of 8 years to get people to remember Ayrton for his immense talent, rather than his tragic death.
To publicise that car in any way would be entirely disrspectful.
Fortunately, i believe Frank Williams thought enough of Ayrton, to be discreet in his handling of this situation.
The car is returning to the people and the place in which it belongs.
So then too, is Senna's memory.

At least if this happens, his final moments are not locked away in some shed in Italy.
But it is better if they do not analyse the car, or at least not to release the findings if they do.
Can you imagine the torrent of emtions that would be swept up again?
It doesn't bear thinking about.

[POLAR]

My oppinion about the accident: too much load over the rear right suspension colapsed it. It caused the front left tyre to loose contact with the ground. That, added to the bottoming made the car steer violently to te right.
The rest is history.

Polar

[pRy]

Gosh, that arriving back at the factory is going to be a very sad moment for alot of people.

[AMD]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut
Myself, I would like to see the team do a proper examination (with independent observers present) to show once and for all that there was nothing wrong with the car itself.

if they do an examination how do you know what they will find? You want them to do a proper examination, and you also hope that the results will show what you want them to find, two different things. When there is tragedy we always want to know why. It doesn't change anything but it helps to find closure. Anyway that chassis belongs back at Williams where it will be respected.

[AMD]

Originally posted by fines
Well, yes, a driver error.

The investigation in Italy couldn't determine what happened exactly but their report wasn't a 5 word sentence like yours.

[AlesiGOD]

Originally posted by fines
Well, yes, a driver error.

Are you serious???

[MONTOYASPEED]

Originally posted by fines
Well, yes, a driver error.

Fines!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well I think it was a driver error, sort of. In that it wasnt a mechanical failure. I think the car just skipped over the bumps and ran wide

[AlesiGOD]

Et tu Rossus? :

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well I think it was a driver error, sort of. In that it wasnt a mechanical failure. I think the car just skipped over the bumps and ran wide

Rubbish.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Why is that so far fetched? Tamburello was notoriously bumpy in 1994. If the bottom of the car hit the ground the suspension would have unloaded slightly and he'd have had steering problems. Its the equivalent of hydroplaning.

[Jhope]

Guys...

Many times over that weekend, Senna would report back to the pits over the radio that Tamburello was very bumpy on the inside. He even advised Hill to take the outter line of Tamburello during the race in order to save his car and potential accident. The reason Ayrton was taking an inside line, was to try and get away from Michael at any cost. At the biggining of lap 7, Ayrton went into Tamburello much tighter than he had the whole weekend. The rest as they say, is history. I don't know if it was driver error, or I don't know if the bumps caused some mechanical component to fail over the course of the weekend, and finally make it snap on Sunday.

[bira]

I can see how this might be a very touchy subject to many, but why is it so blasphemous to suggest the accident was perhaps caused by a driver error?

There's a difference between what caused the accident and what was the cause of Senna's death. I believe the cause of Senna's death was already established. What the Italian authorities tried to figure out was why the steering column snapped, whereby the prosecution claimed it was engineering and construction negligence.

In any event, that isn't the reason for the accident. What caused Senna to go off track, at such high speed - that could well be a combination of over-bumpy piece of road, a car that is bottoming and a driver who was going over the limit.

In any event, I don't think that reaching the conclusion it was a driver error diminishes Senna's memory.

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Why is that so far fetched? Tamburello was notoriously bumpy in 1994. If the bottom of the car hit the ground the suspension would have unloaded slightly and he'd have had steering problems. Its the equivalent of hydroplaning.

I have to agree with Ross S
If the accident wasn't caused by mechanical failure it has to be classified as 'driver error'.

'Driver error', if nothing on the car broke through Tamburello or before, you have to think about the rideheight having caused an aquaplaning effect.

Something else. In a way I think displaying the wreck isn't necessarily inethical or inapropriate.
The wreck can be included in a Williams museum since that specific chassis has become a very significant object in Williams's an F1's history.

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by bira
... There's a difference between what caused the accident and what was the cause of Senna's death ...

In any event, I don't think that reaching the conclusion it was a driver error diminishes Senna's memory.

[Jhope]

You're absolutely right bira. Many people tend to mix up the reason for the accident with the reason for his death.

[BuzzingHornet]

BH's Devil's Advocate Corner:
One thing you have to remember about the May 1 crash is that Senna's actual injury was a freak injury, he was just damned unlucky to be hit by the wheel. If it had missed him he would have stepped out of the car and walked away, he only had a single injury caused by the wheel. And then people might be saying that he'd been pushing too hard and gone off...

-----------------

For what its worth, I personally think that something went wrong with the car. I've watched the video time and time again and there is something strange about the way the car snapped to the right. Ayrton drove over those bumps all weekend, he would surely have been expecting the possibility of what they might do but the way the car got away from him in a flash, he obviously (to me) was totally caught by surprise. This is one of the cleverest, most cunning racing drivers ever to have lived... he knew about those bumps enough to warn Damon about them so to my mind they were not the cause.

[wati]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


PH already said years ago there was no point in them looking at it because it would just be a pile of rust.

Pile of rust? Where? Carbon fibre doesn't rust, I think.

Watite

[joachimvanwing]

question: is it true that after the accident they found a austrian flag under Senna's seat. A flag that he intended to wave after the race? Can someone comment whether this is true or just a fictif story?

[Jhope]

Didn't Senna's Williams slow down to a speed of 90 to 100MPH by the time he hit the wall? If that is the case, an accident at those speeds, even in F1 cars from 1994, would have been very survivable. I even remember reading some type of coroners report which said that is was a very freak accident, and that the angle the car hit at was not considered very critical, or overly dangerous. Like Buzzin said, he would have walked away. This I'm sure of. If you consider other accidents that have happened in the years prior to Senna's, you would have to agree to some extent.

[Jhope]

Originally posted by joachimvanwing
question: is it true that after the accident they found a austrian flag under Senna's seat. A flag that he intended to wave after the race? Can someone comment whether this is true or just a fictif story?

I think the rumour was that the flag was found in his overalls.

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by Jhope


I think the rumour was that the flag was found in his overalls.

thanks for the confirmation, I wasn't sure about it. so many was written about the accident in the days after that often I didn't know anymore what was reality and what was fiction.

You still call it a rumour

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by Jhope
Didn't Senna's Williams slow down to a speed of 90 to 100MPH by the time he hit the wall? If that is the case, ...

between 210 km/h and 240km/h. Travelling at 90m/s he only had 1 to 1,5s to correct or to compensate.

[joachimvanwing]

Originally posted by Wolbo
... a driver the caliber of Senna would make such a mistake in a corner that was not very difficult at all.

Tamburello was a real corner in dry conditions. Going through Tamburello, it was important for a driver not to lose speed trough the corner and take this extra speed with him all the way to Tosa. Therefor Tamburello was always taken on the limit, at all time.

In 1993 (-/+ lap 10) Coming out of varianta Bassa, Prost was chasing Senna for 2nd place. He simply powered by with his superior traction in the wet. He took the inside line going into Tamburello and lifted his foot. Senna kept his foot to the floor and 4wheeldrifted at 300km/h around the outside of the frenchmen.

[Williams]

Another possible contributing factor: the car may been riding closer to the ground because of cold (underpressurized) tyres because of the slow pace of the pace car. In combination with the bumps this may have caused the car to bottom, lose downforce (a condition Patrick Head described as "underbody stall"), and plane off the track.

IIRC correctly, Berger commented after the tragedy that Senna probably would not have simply "walked away" from the accident if the freak tyre trajectory into the cockpit hadn't occurred. Hittting the wall at the speed and angle he did, there probably would have been at least some sort of severe injury from the G-forces alone. But that's all speculation.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Wolbo
I do think it is blashemous to suggest that driver error was the cause for the accident. There is no way that a driver the caliber of Senna would make such a mistake in a corner that was not very difficult at all. The cause of the accident can only be mechanical.

So what was Monaco 1988? Canada 99 with Schumacher, Indy 00 again with Schumacher? These guys make mistakes.

Having said that I dont feel Imola 94 was a 'mistake' nor was it a mechanical. The car left his control and there was nothing he could do about it. I dont blame drivers if they aquaplane in the wet, thats just the way it is

[AMD]

Originally posted by bira
I can see how this might be a very touchy subject to many, but why is it so blasphemous to suggest the accident was perhaps caused by a driver error?

to a driver it is important, like it was the first thing that Hakkinen asked after waking from the coma from his crash at Adelaide '95.

[David M. Kane]

Senna would have easily survived the accident if his visor hadn't been penetrated by a piece of the front suspension which caused the mortal wound to his brain, or am I missing something very basic? That to me falls into the area of freak accident. Who cares whose fault it was at this point? The chances of that happening today are very slim as a result of
the safety changes made. That is the natural evolution of safety in the sport, always been that way, always will be the way. That's the simple
cold pattern.

[John B]

Has head whip, the injury which has plagued auto racing, been ruled out as the primary cause of injury? Like everyone else I've heard about the suspension piece, but always wondered if it was the fatal blow...

[Ross Stonefeld]

When bira asked me to write that HANS article after Dale E's death in some of the research I saw that Ayrton Senna had a basalar skull fracture in addition to his other injuries. Never found it anywhere else though

[SB]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Senna would have easily survived the accident if his visor hadn't been penetrated by a piece of the front suspension which caused the mortal wound to his brain, or am I missing something very basic?

That is the reason why the F1 suspensions are connected by additional wires now and also the cockpit is heightened (you can see the drivers' arms in pre-94's car while you cant even the whole helmet now) to prevent similar accidents to happen again.

SB

[stevew]

How many drivers have gone off at the old Tamburello corner simply because of driver error?

I remember watching on TV that fateful day as Senna's car stopped turning so abruptly, it almost appeared to turn to the right.

I still think it was a mechanical failure. Something, somewhere, broke...

[Mr. Stay Puff]

It was a mechical failure. Senna was my favorite driver. To bring this up again makes me very sad.

[AMD]

Originally posted by bira
. What the Italian authorities tried to figure out was why the steering column snapped, whereby the prosecution claimed it was engineering and construction negligence.

In any event, that isn't the reason for the accident. What caused Senna to go off track, at such high speed - that could well be a combination of over-bumpy piece of road, a car that is bottoming and a driver who was going over the limit.

here are some pictures of the broken steering column. Either it broke during the curve or when the car hit the wall. If you say "that isn't the reason for the accident", then you say the steering column broke when the car hit the wall?

http://www.ayrton-se...s/evidence.html

[Simioni]

Originally posted by bira
I can see how this might be a very touchy subject to many, but why is it so blasphemous to suggest the accident was perhaps caused by a driver error?

There's a difference between what caused the accident and what was the cause of Senna's death. I believe the cause of Senna's death was already established. What the Italian authorities tried to figure out was why the steering column snapped, whereby the prosecution claimed it was engineering and construction negligence.

In any event, that isn't the reason for the accident. What caused Senna to go off track, at such high speed - that could well be a combination of over-bumpy piece of road, a car that is bottoming and a driver who was going over the limit.

I think such suggestion isn't as blasphemous as it is uneducated. Afterall, how can a driver go over the limit in a flatout kink? Over years and years of watching many races and qualifying sessions in the old Imola and I can't remember one single time in which a driver lost control there by any other reason than a mechanical failure - be it wet or dry. It just wasn't a corner that demanded anything from the drivers, as many of them have already attested.

The theory of Senna losing contact with the road due to the combination of cold tires and a bumpy surface would make a bit of sense if Senna had gone off on his first flying lap. But he went off next time round, after setting a laptime that would incidentally turn out to be the 3rd fastest of the race - it's very unlikely that such pace wasn't enough to get the tires up to at least acceptable temperatures. There just isn't anything in the dynamics of the accident that suggests that the car had just plainly lost grip - only if Senna had hit a foot-high bump could he be launched towards the wall over about 70 meters of tarmac and concrete without the slightest change of direction whatsoever.

Besides, the investigation of the accident concluded among many other things that the piece of steering collumn that was still attached to the wheel after the accident (pic provided by AMD in the post above) had fissures that could only have been caused by material fatigue rather than an impact, something that even a williams engineer was forced to agree with. If that isn't one piece of damning evidence I dont know what is, and I'd love to know how williams managed to get around it.

[Tech_Nut]

Bira I sort of expected the stuff I've been reading here. Which is why I started the thread over in the TNF, as posts tend to be more sober and sensible over there. (It's a pity you edited my post as well as moving it, as others would understand.........)

Myself, I think that Frank Williams, Patrick Head and Adrian Newey are very honourable people, and I would like the Wiliams team to do their own in-house investigation of the car. But I can see that the results would be disregarded by many. Seems to me, that people have already made up their minds that it was IMPOSSIBLE for a deity like Senna to have made a simple driving error.

I reckon that cold tyres (low tyre pressures) + chassis bottoming out + driver trying just a fraction too hard = car going off at high speed. The fact that the driver was fatally hurt was just bad luck. If the car had hit the barriers at a slightly different angle, Senna would have walked away.

[AlesiGOD]

Originally posted by Mr. Stay Puff
It was a mechical failure. Senna was my favorite driver. To bring this up again makes me very sad.

Me too...

It wasn't an driver error. Something went wrong with the car...

[Simioni]

Originally posted by Tech_Nut

I reckon that cold tyres (low tyre pressures) + chassis bottoming out + driver trying just a fraction too hard = car going off at high speed.

can you expand on the "trying too hard" bit? You mean Senna shouldn't have been hanging to the inside, which happened to be the normal line, or that he was somehow pushing the throttle further than flatout which was the speed he was supposed to be going at?

Ironically enough, after posting here I took a few looks at the mpeg of the accident and for the first time I could spot a bit of oversteer right before Senna left the track. Yet oversteer round tamburello could only show up if Senna and williams had done an illogical ****up in the setup, or if there was a failure in the rear of some sort. The reason for the possibility of a mere loss of grip being so unlikely is because the curve didn't take the tires nowhere near its limit of adhesion, whatever the circunstances. A wobble as the collumn broke while car went over the bumps seems like the most logical explanation, given all other evidence.

[random]

I strongly suspect Williams will have the remains of the car suitably disposed of. Either burial or more likely incineration and then burial at an anonymous location.

Why? Because It's not the sort of thing Williams would ever want to be displayed anywhere, anytime in the future. Frank will not live forever and this sort of relic is highly sought by morbid curiosity collectors. Many years from now, it's possible an unscrupulous exhibitor could get a hold of the car and display it for the shock value. Frank Williams does not want his legacy in Formula One to be associated with those sort of exhibits and the easiest way to prevent it is by giving the car a proper burial.

Williams will likely contact the Senna family to discuss the matter, but I think they would agree. I hardly think Senna's family would like to see that car on display any more than Frank would.

There is precedent for this practice. As I understand it, many of the cars that drivers have died in have been similarly destroyed.

[josh.lintz]

I presume the car will be destroyed after some sort of internal investigation. Nothing more can come from keeping or displaying it. I would hate to see it become a "circus side-show".

I believe that the steering column broke. Senna could make mistakes, but Tamburello was not a very difficult corner. Alboreto went off in '91 (wing failure?), Berger in '89 (also wing failure), and Piquet in '87 (tire failure).

I believe that Senna was killed by the suspension upright piercing the helmet's visor. I have seen a photo or two of Ayrton's helmet after the fatal accident, and it is very clear that quite a bit of blood was lost. I have seen the pictures on the internet; please search for yourself, I didn't wish to bookmark the site after seeing them (it was about 18 months ago).

[Ross Stonefeld]

You guys are still making the mistake that thinking if the car bottomed out, its driver error. If the car bottoms/hits a bump, thats as good as a mechanical. He can no longer control the car, no one can. Why is that blasphemous or uneducated?

[random]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
You guys are still making the mistake that thinking if the car bottomed out, its driver error. If the car bottoms/hits a bump, thats as good as a mechanical. He can no longer control the car, no one can. Why is that blasphemous or uneducated?

I'd have to disagree. Running a car over a bumpy area and crashing is driver error. I investigate all parts of a track before I take them full out, F1 drivers have 2 days of practice before a grand prix to do just this. If I hit a big bump on the track and crash, the fault would firmly be mine for failing to investigate the surface. I'm not saying this is what happened Senna, but there's never been a satisfactory concensus as to what actually happened.

Fundimentally one of two things occured, a component of the car malfunctioned, or the driver made an error. Williams didn't build perfect cars and Senna wasn't a perfect driver, so either theory is valid. Believe what you will, but the truth will probably never be known.