98 replies to this topic

[dai_ferrari]

I am a long standing Ferrari tifoso, have been now for over 25 years. I've been following almost everything they do religiously, try to read as much as I can about them through various media outlets, internet sites, magazines, newspapers, etc. Year in and year out, I follow the build up to their new F1 cars and the performaces of them, the reactions from the drivers, engineers and media. From all of this, I do sense that maybe, just maybe, Ferrari aren't exactly thrilled by the performance of the F2002 to date.

Mind you, it apparently is faster than the F2001, but apart from finding the most optimal setup on each track they've tested on so far, and testing various components, unknown fuel loads or doing tire tests, I am concerned that the times so far don't indicate that much more of an improvement over the F2001. Granted, the car has a totally new back end, and of course the transmission/engine package is also new, and therefore they might be struggling to find an optimal setup, but I don't know, maybe call it a lingering doubt, or maybe just chalk it up to a slight worry about the challenge from the Williams/BMW pacakge.

From certain reports I've heard that apparently they are lacking straight line speed in the new F2002, while on the twisty portions of the track they seem to be fine. Also, it's my opinion that yes they are concerned about the reliability of the new machine, but that they are actually more worried or concerned about the pace of the car. Some people hace called this car, "revolutionary". When I think of "revolutionary" I think of something brand new, something radically different that no other team has done so far. Something that should be quite a bit faster than the previous car, while yes, maybe somewhat less reliable.

One other thing, while I was impressed with the back end of the F2002, I have to admit I was less than impressed with the front end, and I would've expected that by know we might have seen some new aerodynamic piece or front end to compliment that great back. At least that's what Bryne implied in some of the interviews he'd done.

Of course with Ferrari, there is precedent with "revolutionary" designs. Remember back to the 89 season, the semi-automatic transmission? That car was slow out of the box, and took quite a bit of time to gain competitiveness and of course reliability. It finally did prove to be a great innovation, of course that coupled with the great design of the Barnard car that year, saw Ferrari win a few races, of course their engine that year, IMO was no match for the Honda powerplant. I hope that even though Ferrari could and should win the aerodynamic contest, that they also win the power contest with BMW.

Sorry for the long post, make of it what you will.

[Brian O Flaherty]

Sorry for such a short answer to such a long post but the simple response is - We'll have to wait and see.

[Ghostrider]

Good post dai_ferrari !! Haven't followed Ferrari that close this year to be able to appreciate how correct you might be, but interesting observations.

[lateralforce]

I'm sure if there's a team which can resolve the fastest track-specific tuning it should be Ferrari given their long history (and huge database) of F1 cars and F1 racing.

But by how fast they can do it, it still remains to be seen. F2002 is a great addition to the 2002 championship and I hope it will do Ferrari well.

[AMD]

if the car lacks speed in a straight line then either the engine is down on power (not yet 051 full power yet, like the Honda) or the aero is no good. The car came from a windtunnel that is the best in the business so I doubt the aero can be that bad, it is impossible. This is Maranello not some Jaguar rental windtunnel in California.

[Mrv]

It doesn't lack straightline speed. It is quicker than the F2001.

[dai_ferrari]

I agree that if there is any team that can make quick adjustments, replace parts quickly, react faster than any other team, it is Ferrari. I also agree they have a great wind tunnel, and great aero engineers, and that the F2002 is no doubt a great aerodynamically sound car.

But of course for a car to be great, it must be the whole package that makes it so. Engine, aero, electronics, driver, tires, staff, etc. And of course, time. Right now, I wonder why they don't have Burti testing either the 3rd F2002, or the F2001, and let Badoer test the 3rd F2002. Seems to me if you have 4 test drivers, and you're concerned about reliability/pace, and you have 3 F2002 cars at your disposition, why not use this to your advantage?

[Mrv]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
I agree that if there is any team that can make quick adjustments, replace parts quickly, react faster than any other team, it is Ferrari. I also agree they have a great wind tunnel, and great aero engineers, and that the F2002 is no doubt a great aerodynamically sound car.

But of course for a car to be great, it must be the whole package that makes it so. Engine, aero, electronics, driver, tires, staff, etc. And of course, time. Right now, I wonder why they don't have Burti testing either the 3rd F2002, or the F2001, and let Badoer test the 3rd F2002. Seems to me if you have 4 test drivers, and you're concerned about reliability/pace, and you have 3 F2002 cars at your disposition, why not use this to your advantage?

There are only 3 F2002's and limited parts for the F2002. Not a good idea to run all three at once. You don't need 3 cars running. 2 cars are more than enough to get the data they require.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Mrv
It doesn't lack straightline speed. It is quicker than the F2001.

The question is of course, compared to what does it 'lack straightline speed' probably compared to BMW. But if the car can close the gap in straightline speed that the F2001 has to the Williams, and is even quicker on the rest of the track it's still going to be the hottest things since uh ..the F2001

[dai_ferrari]

Mrv,

I agree it's faster than the F2001. As for straightline speed, I don't know, only what I've read on a couple of sites that say in Barcellona, Ferrari haven't been near the top in terms of straightline speed, that's all I have to go on. As to how accurate these reports are, I don't know. Still, I'd like to see the new car more than just 2/5 tenths faster than the F2001. Yeah, Badoer is over a sec behind in the F2001, but of course we don't know how the car is setup. In past comparison testing, the F2002 wasn't terribly quicker than the F2001. Let's just hope they get the optimisation of the car down quick and soon, as well as the reliability, so we can see it soon racing!

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Its normal for you to have some doubts, especially since its taking so long to field it. The longer it takes, the more time for doubts to arise. I must admit that I'm not too thrilled about the delay. However, there is a few things u have to take into account:
1) The F2002 IS and WILL be quicker than F2001, they just do not need to prove it so much in tests every single time (BTW it did break the Fiorano and Mugello records!).
2) MS cares about one thing and one thing only since he moved to Ferrari......RELIABILITY. They will solve it, they are the best in the business. The speed is there, not to worry. Straight-line speed is not that important compared to speed in corners and that is were it is excelling according to RB. But the new nose is a little less curved meaning that they have found enough downforce w/ the F2002 with less of an arch design than before (F2001). There has also been no testing at Varano yet, Italy's straight-line speed testing circuit, so those reports may be erroneous or speculation for now.
3) Ferrari is secretive. Ferrari tends to hide the real potential of its cars until it hits the GPs, and thats important because they do not want to show there cards.

Its gonna be tough season, but expect to see them fighting for poles and wins every GP

[Mrv]

Straighline speed is good. I don't know who is saying this because the 051A in the F2001 set some good trap speeds in Malyasia. The full version of the 051 in the F2002 is a better and more powerful engine than the F2001, The only concern is reliabilty and nothing more at the moment. The pace will improve even more with development along the way.

[AMD]

I don't think the straightline speed gap between Williams and F2001 is huge. At Hockeheim they were destroyed but at Monza they were nearly able to win.

[dai_ferrari]

Mrv,

Yes, I understand their are only 3 F2002's and supposedly limited parts available. But why? It all sounds last minute to me. This car went into design last April/May. Ferrari had the championship wrapped up by August, why do they only have "limited" parts available? I wonder if somewhere along the line during design, they changed on something dramatically, which is why they are "behind" schedule, and late on parts? Maybe you could answer that.

I admit, it might sound as if I'm very worried. I'm not, if Ferrari (and it's a big if) don't win the WC, so be it, I'm enough of a tifoso to endure that, after all us tifosi have been through quite a lot of dry times. I do think Ferrari will make it 4 in a row, and MS 3 in a row this year. I'm just speculating on the F2002, besides I'm not at work today, and have nothing better to do with my time right now, so bear with me here.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
Mrv,

I agree it's faster than the F2001. As for straightline speed, I don't know, only what I've read on a couple of sites that say in Barcellona, Ferrari haven't been near the top in terms of straightline speed, that's all I have to go on. As to how accurate these reports are, I don't know. Still, I'd like to see the new car more than just 2/5 tenths faster than the F2001. Yeah, Badoer is over a sec behind in the F2001, but of course we don't know how the car is setup. In past comparison testing, the F2002 wasn't terribly quicker than the F2001. Let's just hope they get the optimisation of the car down quick and soon, as well as the reliability, so we can see it soon racing!

For one thing. Ferrari are not going to show everyone there true capabilty in Barcelona, why should they? When Michael says, I want it now that means one thing to me. It is quicker and better than the F2001. Ferrari is a very conservative team, and plan things out slowly so that when they are ready, it will be as close to 100% as possible.

[AMD]

yes they changed to make it more revolutionary. Why, because they knew there was no regulation changes, so they could bring the F2001 to the races. They built 3 new F2001B for this, and this took the pressure off F2002 development, and they deliberately lengthened the time of development to make a bigger step forward in every single department.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
Mrv, Yes, I understand their are only 3 F2002's and supposedly limited parts available. But why? It all sounds last minute to me. This car went into design last April/May. Ferrari had the championship wrapped up by August, why do they only have "limited" parts available? I wonder if somewhere along the line during design, they changed on something dramatically, which is why they are "behind" schedule, and late on parts? Maybe you could answer that.

Look at the car today and compare it to the launch car. Ferrari are always developing parts for it, and are trying to make it even better than it is. They have the luxury because the F2001 is fairly competitive still. All along since last year, they have been saying that it is quite possible that the car won't run before Imola They are on schedule. We will just have to wait and see how it does. All I know is that it is better than the F2001 so they have a good chance to win both titles once again.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by AMD
yes they changed to make it more revolutionary. Why, because they knew there was no regulation changes, so they could bring the F2001 to the races. They built 3 new F2001B for this, and this took the pressure off F2002 development, and they deliberately lengthened the time of development to make a bigger step forward in every single department.

They are F2001-C's

[AMD]

Mrv, the car Schumacher drove at Suzuka is the T-car but all cars have been updated since then, so F2001B is Schumacher Suzuka Special and F2001C is F2001B updated with better engine, electronics but same aero, same chassis?

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by Mrv


Look at the car today and compare it to the launch car. Ferrari are always developing parts for it, and are trying to make it even better than it is. They have the luxury because the F2001 is fairly competitive still. All along since last year, they have been saying that it is quite possible that the car won't run before Imola They are on schedule. We will just have to wait and see how it does. All I know is that it is better than the F2001 so they have a good chance to win both titles once again.

Nice one MRV
Another point which is being lost in these discussions, is the the F2002 base-design, is probably gonna be carried over into the 2003 and mebbe 2004 seasons. The FIA has confirmed no chassis changes for the next 2 years and I guess Ferrari kinda knew this and thus wanted to develop F2002 as the future design for 2-3 years as as opposed to 1 year at a time. Bigger project=more testing time needed.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by AMD
Schumacher Suzuka Special

Sounds delicious.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by AMD
Mrv, the car Schumacher drove at Suzuka is the T-car but all cars have been updated since then, so F2001B is Schumacher Suzuka Special and F2001C is F2001B updated with better engine, electronics but same aero, same chassis?

F2001C has a different chassis. For one thing it is lighter than the Suzuka spec.

[dai_ferrari]

If you believe what the Autosport website says, they say that the morning time set by RB was on low fuel load. Don't quite know how Autosport would know this however.

One thing I do know, and it's in agreement with Mrv and posts he's made over time. Ferrari do tend to do more practices and tests concerning race day setups, and looking at the overall picture for race setups and not concentrate so much on qualifying laps or putting in the fastest laps or fastest trap speeds.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


Nice one MRV
Another point which is being lost in these discussions, is the the F2002 base-design, is probably gonna be carried over into the 2003 and mebbe 2004 seasons. The FIA has confirmed no chassis changes for the next 2 years and I guess Ferrari kinda knew this and thus wanted to develop F2002 as the future design for 2-3 years as as opposed to 1 year at a time. Bigger project=more testing time needed.

Exactly this base car being new, has a few years of development yet.

[AMD]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
Ferrari do tend to do more practices and tests concerning race day setups, and looking at the overall picture for race setups and not concentrate so much on qualifying laps or putting in the fastest laps or fastest trap speeds.

Rubinho was caught out by this more often than Michael because he needs time to prepare. In Malaysia they wasted a lot of time tire testing to make sure they chose the right one, and the answer was not easy because there was no Bridgestone tyre to beat Michelin. So RB and MS spent a lot of time, they were not working on setup and on Saturday conditions changed enough that when Rubens went out to qualify he discovered the car wasn't as he would like it. Michael got it right, with the same minimal preparation, because MS is much better and much quicker at getting it right. In qualifying it was damage control for Rubens to improve the car enough to get ahead of Ralf and not look like a total idiot. Lucky for him Ralf had a shocking qualifying.

[wati]

No need to worry, IMO. The new car will do fine.

Wattie

[KinetiK]

If Williams scores another 1-2 in Brazil you'll definitely see the F2002 at Imola, reliability woes be damned.

[Mrv]

For sure there is nothing out there that would get the F2002 on the track faster than another Williams 1 - 2

[palmas]

Originally posted by Mrv
For sure there is nothing out there that would get the F2002 on the track faster than another Williams 1 - 2

Yes there is: a Wiliams 1-2 and Mac 3-4

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by palmas


Yes there is: a Wiliams 1-2 and Mac 3-4

haha, yup! (what's this cat thing supposed to symbolize anyway?)

[TAB666]

Just a question , since i dont remember the answer my self : What was the fastest speed during last years GP at Barcelona ? and does anyone know what top speeds they have during the tests there ?

[John]

Rubens should take the F2002 to Brazil. It's his home GP and if it is that fast, he can do what MS did all of 2001: Race like mad, cushion your lead to allow an alternate pit strategy, then coast at the tail end of the race to preserve the car.

It will be a damn sight better than driving the F2001 yet again and falling on the same bad luck.

What difference would it make for the F2002 to break down vs. the F2001?

[StickShift]

My opinion on the F2002 is that it will be an improvement to the F2001. However, it will not be as great as people were hailing it. They said this thing could be a second to two(!) seconds faster then the F2001. I don't know what F2001 they were testing, but it certainly doesn't sound like it was with the current spec's speed. It will be faster then the F2001, but it will not be one to two seconds faster.

[TAB666]

Originally posted by John
Rubens should take the F2002 to Brazil. It's his home GP and if it is that fast, he can do what MS did all of 2001: Race like mad, cushion your lead to allow an alternate pit strategy, then coast at the tail end of the race to preserve the car.

It will be a damn sight better than driving the F2001 yet again and falling on the same bad luck.

What difference would it make for the F2002 to break down vs. the F2001?

With RB in a F2002 ferrari could try a super strategy.
First RB sprints away like crazy and laps the entire field. Then if MS isnt second he slows down and enable MS to overtake the guys between them. When this is done RB will drop down the field , and while doing so he will try to take out the other drivers
So that would give us these point scorers :

MS
MS
AM
MW
AY
EI

MS,AM,MW,AY and EI where all in the pits when RB started the crashing frenzy

[pRy]

It will be the same speed as the F12001.

[cormac]

TAB666 : MS won the pole last year at Barcelona with a 1:18.201.

Ferrari's best time this year testing at Barcelona is 1:18.112 by Rubens back in Jan.

Yes, I know testing times are meaningless, but still no one has topped Wurz's 1:17.328 in last year's Mac also back in Jan.

[se7en_24]

Mrv,

When has Schumacher said "I want it now"? I have only seen quotes saying he is happy with running the old car.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by se7en_24
Mrv,

When has Schumacher said "I want it now"? I have only seen quotes saying he is happy with running the old car.

La Gazzetta Dello Sport.

[TAB666]

Originally posted by cormac
TAB666 : MS won the pole last year at Barcelona with a 1:18.201.

Ferrari's best time this year testing at Barcelona is 1:18.112 by Rubens back in Jan.

Yes, I know testing times are meaningless, but still no one has topped Wurz's 1:17.328 in last year's Mac also back in Jan.

I was thinking about top speed down the main straight.

[lenny]

whoever quoted Adolf Hitler in his signature

[dai_ferrari]

Obviously we don't know what Ferrari had planned today for testing, in terms of objectivity, but I'd have to say the number of laps is quite disappointing to me. Only 43 laps for RB, some 85 for MS. Yes, MS did enough to complete a race distance, but I'd love to see him doing RS lap numbers, like over a 100 or so, but again, it depends on what strategy Ferrari had for testing today.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
Obviously we don't know what Ferrari had planned today for testing, in terms of objectivity, but I'd have to say the number of laps is quite disappointing to me. Only 43 laps for RB, some 85 for MS. Yes, MS did enough to complete a race distance, but I'd love to see him doing RS lap numbers, like over a 100 or so, but again, it depends on what strategy Ferrari had for testing today.

You are answering your own question.
Why would 100 laps make u more tranquil than 85?
As long as the reliabilty is there and a GP distance is covered, then things are looking good. But thats all we can infer because no one except for Ferrari knows what they are trying to achieve in these tests.

[Zmeej]

Lenny
I know exactly how you feel, but shouldn't you have sent your post as a message directly to the person who quoted AH? Please don't let your justifiable anger overwhelm an otherwise excellent thread.

John
Rubinho in Brazil in an F2002 would be good marketing (something Ferrari might impose on him), but I'm not sure he'd enjoy it. It's my impression that he prefers the F2001 so far (Yes? Am I wrong? Please lemme know).

Very informative posts dai, Mrv, BBC, AMD...

Seem to remember reading Schumi's call for the 2002 immediately reprinted elsewhere too. Also remember being quite surprised that he would make his sentiments in this regard so public.

Given that he's usually patient and very onside in terms of pronouncements about what the team is doing, methinks this one was meant for Williams/Mac consumption.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Mrv


La Gazzetta Dello Sport.

Any reliable sources then?

or perhaps a link, arent they online?

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by se7en_24

Any reliable sources then?

or perhaps a link, arent they online?

You can't get more reliable than that, MS/RB and Ferrari give precedence to La Gazzetta dello Sport's journos, Italy's No.1 sports paper.
But its in Italian, thats why MRV is not linking it (unless u read Italian?)

[AMD]

Originally posted by cormac
TAB666 : MS won the pole last year at Barcelona with a 1:18.201.

Ferrari's best time this year testing at Barcelona is 1:18.112 by Rubens back in Jan.

Yes, I know testing times are meaningless, but still no one has topped Wurz's 1:17.328 in last year's Mac also back in Jan.

What difference does temparature make to testing times at Barcelona? The Winter test times seem hard to beat.

[AMD]

Originally posted by TAB666


I was thinking about top speed down the main straight.

At Barcelona big topspeed is a sign of weakness but remember Toyota set the topspeed numbers back in testing, which sent a signal of their strenght (and weakness) I suppose

[AMD]

Originally posted by pRy
It will be the same speed as the F12001.

already it is quicker, so are you saying it is running light to attrackt sponsors???

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


You can't get more reliable than that, MS/RB and Ferrari give precedence to La Gazzetta dello Sport's journos, Italy's No.1 sports paper.
But its in Italian, thats why MRV is not linking it (unless u read Italian?)

I doubt Mrv reads the gazzetta every day in england, I called a few mates from over the border and they heard nothing similar, same for most worldwide F1 press, I am sure they have some italian translators too that might read the gazzetta?

I just wanted confirmation of Michael saying 'I want the F2002 now'.. still waiting

I'd be happy to translate an Italian link by the way, Mrv?

[The RedBaron]

I think that F2002 is still in it's infancy, they still need a couple of weeks to further develop and tweak it's performance. In it's base form (a few weeks back) it was already quicker than the f2001, so I'm confident that it will be at least a second quicker before it hits Imola.
We probably will only see the true potential of the F2002 in the last 1/3rd of the season....that's when MS (or RB) will need a performance advantage to chase those titles.