28 replies to this topic

[Redliner]

Before I begin, what sad news about the dear old Queen Mother. She will be sorely missed.

In leafing through my TV times this Saturday morning I came across a soon to be screened documentary or Steve McQueen and the preview imparted some interesting news. McQueen's fatal lung cancer was apparently caused by him inhaling asbestos fibres while wearing fire retartdant racing gear. Any truth to this? If so most drivers fromt he 60's and 70's could sue on public health grounds. Also, to what extent did Steve McQueen's racing career extend (apart from that 2nd at Sebring)?

[Richard Jenkins]

Without wishing to be too cyncial, I think the awesomly talented McQueen's sad death was more to the heavy boozing & smoking (if not drug taking as well) that he reguarly indulged in.....
Still I will watch the documenatry nonetheless...

[Redliner]

Hmmm probably very true there Richie, sad though it is. Still stranger things have happened to race drivers, the mysterious Ultrasonics episode springs to mind. . . .

[Dudley]

Before I begin, what sad news about the dear old Queen Mother. She will be sorely missed.

Off topic and inappropriate.

[Gerr]

This link describes McQueen's cancer as a rare form associated to asbestos poisoning,
http://www.inventors...com/mcqueen.htm
Started racing Porsches in 1959 in SoCal at Santa Barbara,Del Mar,Willow Springs,Riverside etc.,later a Lotus XI. Raced at Oulton Park,Aintree and Brands Hatch'61 or '62 and took home an ex-works,ex-Maggs Cooper FJ. Teamed with Moss,Ireland and Rodriguez at Sebring in '62 for the 3hour production race. Started bike racing in 1963 and was part of the US team in International Trials.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I read somewhere that Andretti was less impressed by that 2nd place at Sebring, as Revson did all the driving. Especially when the speaker shouted out how fantastic McQueen was driving when in fact Revson was in the car.

Surely a half-decent driver but no Andretti.

[jondoe955]

Dear Post Police:
Just relax. While the Queen's death may have been off topic (it was news to me), it wasn't any more inappropriate than the topic of Steve McQueen - or did you find that equally inappropriate?
I guess you weren't a fan, nor interested in someone's feelings about her. Sad.
(as a Yank, I am totally ignorant about her politics and policies. But I am sure many will be upset with the news)

[Ray Bell]

What racing suits included asbestos?

None I ever heard of, except perhaps some home made ones in early jet drag racing...

Nomex and Proban were the first regular fire retardent materials used.

[Redliner]

Off topic and inappropriate

Dudley, what an overwhelmingly sickening attitude to the passing of a woman who did more good than you will probably ever do in your own meagre existence. Also it is not generally know but the Queen Mother did indeed attend, and was an entusiastic supporter of the first World Championship Grand Prix to be held at Silverstone in 1950. I can only assume that you are not only totally ignorant of British history, Motorsport history and morals. You also have no emational bone in your body. People like you absolutely sicken me.

Well sorry about that rant at an ignoramus the rest of you. I hope you do not take offense as I have discovered that most people on this messageboard are very warm, friendly, knowledgable and welcoming. Jondoe555 thankyou for your words of support. Not all you Yanks are a bad bunch then .

Interestingly, reguarding Rainer's post, I heard differently, apparently McQueen did his fair share of the driving in that race, it would be interesting to know if anyone has a breakdown of changeovers. To dispel a popular myth about him though, if any of you have seen "The Great Escape", the famous motorcycle jump over barbed wire at the end was not actually performed by him. Though it has to be said a great many others were, including the garotting of a German motorcyclist at high speed by a trip wire (ballsy).

In reguards to his racing career, he was a competant journeyman then? Did anyone see him race?

[Gerr]

Re: Sebring 1970.I remember reading that McQueen started and he and Revson were on 2-hour shifts. McQueen got the car to second place overall during his last stint,handed over to Revson who led during the final shift. McQueen's left foot had six recently broken bones from a motor-cycle race(which he finished)and the cast dissolved during his first shift.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Steve McQueen was a much better driver than people - then and now - want to give him credit for. He acquitted himself very well at Sebring in 1970.

Obviously he was not as fast as Revson - Revson was a world class driver - at or near his peak. At the same time McQueen was more competitive than many other wealthy owners - before and since - who have driven alongside one or more professionals at top international endurance races. McQueen drove more than 4 hours - I'm not certain of the exact total but I know it was more than 4 hours.

It was a race of attrition otherwise a Porsche 908 never would have expected to be as high as 2nd - and nearly pull off the win. Revson qualified the Solar 908 15th. McQueen drove the first full two hours and turned the car over to Revson in 10th position - attrition had already set in but McQueen did a good job. McQueen finished his last stint with about two hours left - so Revson was in the car at the finish.

The last hour was pretty wild. The Andretti/ Merzario Ferrari 512 was leading with the Rodriguez/Kinnunen/Siffert Porsche 917 2nd, the McQueen/Revson 908 3rd, and the Giunti/Vaccarella Ferrari 4th. The lead Ferrari broke its gearbox - Ferrari Team Manager Gozzi called Giunti in and put Andretti in the 4th placed car. With 15 minutes to go the leading 917 pitted with a collapsed front suspension and with 10 minutes to go Revson was in the lead! It was short-lived - Andretti had been lapping the Ferrari faster than its qualifying times and swept in to the lead on the next lap. He continued to go flat out even after the pass - the reason was that he knew he had to make a stop for a splash of fuel on the last lap - he came out of the pits as the 908 came by and regained the lead to win by 23.8 seconds.

Andretti has been quoted often as saying that he drove at the absolute limit - there was no way he was going to allow a film star to win this race. McQueen and Revson could hold their heads high.

By the way - McQueen broke his left ankle on a motorcycle two weeks before Sebring and drove with his foot in plaster. A pretty gutsy deal. In practice he was only 2 to 3 seconds a lap slower than Revson - which I think is pretty impressive - if you look at the differential between most owner/patron drivers and the hired pros - you will see a bigger gap than that. Sometimes much bigger!

Gerr has summarized above some of his early race experience. I would only add that McQueen also raced in the 12-hour race at Sebring in 1962 in addition to the 3-hour race he mentions.

The disease that killed Steve McQueen is mesothelioma - a particularly virulent (and seldom curable) form of cancer most commonly associated with persons with exposure to asbestos. The statement above that his death can be attributed to other lifestyle choices is highly speculative and not supported by the facts.

Ray asks what race suits contained asbestos. It is thought that his exposure to asbestos was probably from breathing through the asbestos material used in the masks that many motorcycle riders (and some race car drivers) used in that era.

This past summer I shared a car (the Brumos RSR that won the 1976 Daytona 24-Hour) at Lime Rock with Steve McQueen's son, Chad, at the Porsche Rennsport Reunion. Chad is a really fine guy and out of loyalty to him and his obvious devotion to his father - I wanted to bring some accuracy and fairness to this exchange.

[Kerb Bouncer]

Steve McQueen did die of mesothelioma, a cancer of the lining of the abdomen, I believe. It is strongly, and almost solely, associated with asbestos exposure, but I believe McQueen may have been exposed to it in either one of two ways. 1) He may have worked in construction jobs in shipbuilding where it was commonly used. 2) I cannot remember for certain, but he may served in the Navy and been exposed to ship-based asbestos. Not a racing related death. Ray is right, Nomex doesn't fit the bill.

He was not the greatest driver, but it seems that it was something he took seriously.

BTW, and off topic, a few months ago, I saw Paul Newman being interviewed about a movie. He was asked what he would steal, if he thought he could get away with it. Without a moment's hesitation or blinking an eye, he said " A Formula One car."

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Redliner
Before I begin, what sad news about the dear old Queen Mother. She will be sorely missed.

Redliner - I'm with you, and anyone doubting the wonderful old duck's historical stature or 20th Century significance, or majority respect within our country deserves corrective training. On the narrow front of TNF's subject matter, when she, KGVI and their two daughters attended 'Royal Silverstone' in 1950, the visit that was arranged on their behalf with the Royal Automobile Club and the British Racing Drivers' Club probably did more than any other single act to elevate world-class motor sport to a truly prominent level here in Great Britain...

As such it provided another click of the ratchet on this country's route to the dominance which subsequently endured for so many years.

The drivers and officials presented to Queen Elizabeth that day were surprised at the level of knowledge as well as interest that she, in particular, seemed to show. And as a lady who, I have just heard on the radio, remained convinced lifelong that Dubonnet was absolutely non-alcoholic and did best combined with liberal amounts of gin, and who had the capacity to drink most men under the table without ever coming even close to turning a hair, she was pretty special...

Perhaps I'm biased, the management here is also a Scot, sharing the same birth date...if not the year.

On the point of this thread - my old friend Andrew Ferguson - Team Lotus manager - ran the Solar Productions team at Sebring with McQueen and he rated him highly indeed as a driver - as Mike says, obviously not a match for Revvie, but decidedly a cut far above the average SCCA middle-aged ego who had misspent his youth merely making money, and now in middle-age was spending it on recapturing lost youth...

DCN

[David M. Kane]

Dudley:

I guess I should apologize for mentioning Uncle Miltie and Dudley Moore in
my Bob Said posting the other day? Lighten up and eat another Easter chocolate.

[Gary C]

I always thought he contracted his cancer thru working on a film somewhere where there was an asbestos plant nearby and everyone inhaled the stuff through the air!

[Ray Bell]

Yes, that's the only way either asbestos or plutonium can harm you, if breathed.

I now understand the video refers to getting it from a polo-neck garment in his racing days... silly.

[Vitesse2]

Well the asbestos accusation was allowed to pass without comment ... no evidence was presented that race suits had anything to do with it.

[rdrcr]

Steve McQueen was for me, one of, if not the most prominent "idol" if you will, when I was growing up. I mean, I must have seen Bullitt, The Great Escape and Pappion at least 20 times before he died and Le Mans half that many times since it's release. Not to mention his featuring in Bruce Brown's "On Any Sunday"...

Upon hearing of his death, I was very interested in knowing why he passed away. The report of lung cancer was enough, thinking that his smoking was to blame. Then I heard of the asbestos related problem. Little known at the time, but obviously a serious determent to longevity.

In the years following his success as a film star, McQueen's predilection for fast cars, fast women and the potential lethal combination of cigarette smoking, hard drinking and hard drugs probably did little to aid him away from his cancerous end.

I doubt that auto racing, by itself, had anything what-so-ever to do with his demise. His addictive personality was at the route of his imbibing. And his inhailment of Asbestos particles was what lead to his tragic early death.

Thanks Mike for your recalling of your memories of the actor / racer. I too thought he was a pretty fair driver who took his challenges seriously but never lost the "fun" aspect of racing... As portrayed in On Any Sunday.

Not that you're going to look in here again Dudley, but in TNF we go about things a bit differently... Civility is at the forefront of communication and I found nothing wrong with the mention of observance of the Queen Mum's passing in this thread. I believe it's your comments that are inappropriate.

[Option1]

It really does help if we all know what we're talking about here. So just in the interests of accuracy I thought it best to check and confirm my understanding of mesothelioma. The following comes from http://www.mesothelioma-facts.com/ and while it's an internet source it does accord with my previous understanding of the disease.

What is mesothelioma? Mesothelioma is a cancer of the cells that make up the lining around the outside of the lungs and inside of the ribs (pleura), or around the abdominal organs (peritoneum).

What does asbestos have to do with mesothelioma? The only known cause of mesothelioma in the United States is previous exposure to asbestos fibers. Asbestos manufacturers knew about the hazards of asbestos seventy years ago - but they kept this knowledge to themselves. The first warnings given to workers exposed to asbestos were in the mid-1960s, and they were terribly inadequate. Even today, workers are not always told they are working around asbestos and are at risk for asbestos disease.

What happens when asbestos is in the air we breathe? (from http://www.kmesa.com...thappens2.shtml ) Asbestos fibers enter the body in the air we breathe. Most of the asbestos fibers we breathe - like other dust particles - are stopped long before they enter the small airways of the lungs. For example, when we enter a dusty room or sprinkle powder, we sometimes choke. We literally cough up the mucus that contains most of the irritating substances. However, because asbestos fibers are so small and thin, many of them pass all the way down to the small airways and alveoli (or air sacs.)

Once the fibers are inside the lungs, the body's defense mechanisms try to break them down and remove them. Despite these attempts, many fibers remain in the body and are potential disease-causing agents. Each fiber is a foreign body, rather like a splinter in a finger. Inflammations develop as the body tries to neutralize, break down or move the sharp, irritating fibers. These processes lead to the development of the various kinds of asbestos-caused diseases.

Although all of the different kinds of asbestos fibers can be inhaled and become lodged in the lungs, some fibers (amphiboles, like amosite and crocidolite) seem to accumulate to a greater extent than others (such as chrysotile.) This might be because some chrysotile fibers, being long and curly, get stuck higher up in the lungs rather than transported all the way into the small airways. Or it might be because chrysotile fibers, being fragile and unstable, break up in the body within a few months and are transported away from the lungs into the pleura or lymph system.

Once fibers are inside the body, they can move around. How this happens is not fully understood. It might be because they are thin and sharp. The fibers can move from the lungs into the pleura and into the lymph nodes, and this means that they can move into other parts of the body.

Finally, asbestos can be swallowed (ingested) as well as inhaled. For example, when mucus and sputum that contain a lot of fibers are swallowed, some of those fibers can stick in the intestinal tract and from there they can move into the lining of the abdomen (peritoneum.)

What are asbestos diseases? (From http://www.kmesa.com...s/whatare.shtml ) There are several different kinds of diseases that are related to previous exposure to asbestos fibers, and they can be categorized in various ways:
Some are malignant (or cancerous), such as mesothelioma and lung cancer. Others are benign (non-malignant or non-cancerous), such as asbestosis, pleural plaques, diffuse pleural fibrosis, and benign pleural effusions.

Some are increasingly and severely disabling, often leading to death, like mesothelioma, asbestosis and lung cancer; and others are less so, such as pleural plaques and thickening, which rarely produce symptoms or disability.

Some are very clearly and directly attributable to exposure to asbestos, such as asbestosis and mesothelioma. For others, such as gastro-intestinal tract cancers, the causal connection to asbestos exposure is one that appears probable but has not yet been proven with certainty.

The diseases for which asbestos exposure is a generally accepted cause are mesothelioma, asbestosis, small airway fibrosis, scarring, pleural plaques, pleural fibrosis, pleural effusion, and many lung cancers. Diseases for which asbestos exposure is not at this time generally accepted as the cause, include cancers of the kidney, GI tract and ovary.

Some claim that all it can sometimes take is the inhalation of a single fiber of asbestos to start a patient down the road to things such as mesothelioma. (See: http://www.elslaw.com/news_wsj.htm ) However, a somewhat more reputable source, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) at http://cis.nci.nih.gov/fact/3_21.htm says:

Who is at risk?
Nearly everyone is exposed to asbestos at some time during their life. However, most people do not become ill from their exposure. People who become ill from asbestos are usually those who are exposed to it on a regular basis, most often in a job where they work directly with the material or through substantial environmental contact.

Since the early 1940s, millions of American workers have been exposed to asbestos. Health hazards from asbestos dust have been recognized in workers exposed in shipbuilding trades, asbestos mining and milling, manufacturing of asbestos textiles and other asbestos products, insulation work in the construction and building trades, brake repair, and a variety of other trades. Demolition workers, drywall removers, and firefighters also may be exposed to asbestos dust. As a result of Government regulations and improved work practices, today's workers (those without previous exposure) are likely to face smaller risks than did those exposed in the past.

Although it is known that the risk to workers increases with heavier exposure and longer exposure time, investigators have found asbestos-related diseases in individuals with only brief exposures. Generally, workers who develop asbestos-related diseases show no signs of illness for a long time after their first exposure. It can take from 10 to 40 years for symptoms of an asbestos-related condition to appear.

There is some evidence that family members of workers heavily exposed to asbestos face an increased risk of developing mesothelioma. This risk is thought to result from exposure to asbestos dust brought into the home on the shoes, clothing, skin, and hair of workers. This type of exposure is called paraoccupational exposure. To decrease these exposures, asbestos workers are usually required to shower and change their clothing before leaving the workplace.

Interestingly, the NCI also goes on to say slightly confusingly:

Many studies have shown that the combination of smoking and asbestos exposure is particularly hazardous. Smokers who are also exposed to asbestos have a greatly increased risk of lung cancer. However, smoking combined with asbestos exposure does not appear to increase the risk of mesothelioma.

Anyway, I hope this mass of information helps just a little.

Neil

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Dudley


Off topic and inappropriate.

Not to say this too loudly, but I think that as the Marshal in these parts of the territory that I didn't & don't have a problem with the comment about the Queen Mother.... I also don't have much of a problem when a few maverick remarks stray from the herd. Sometimes they are as interesting as the point being discussed. However, there is no such thing as a herd of mavericks.....

[MattC]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
...

Ray asks what race suits contained asbestos. It is thought that his exposure to asbestos was probably from breathing through the asbestos material used in the masks that many motorcycle riders (and some race car drivers) used in that era.

...

That is indeed what the film attributed the cancer to. (Though they made no mention of how many other racers were exposed in the same way.)

Steve McQueen - like the Queen Mum, a great character, much missed!

[MarkWRX]

Steve McQueen was a heavy smoker and cigarette filters in the 50's, 60's and 70's contained asbestos. Firesuits of that era were either non-existent, boron based (soak a pair of cotton overalls in a solution of boron) or Nomex. I have never heard about asbestos being used in motorcycelist face masks, but I guess that's possible.

The type of cancer he had is "associated with asbestos" but nothing I can find says that's the only cause. So I doubt his family could sue.

And God Bless the Queen Mum. Even as a yank, I always enjoyed watching her very apparent spirit and love of life. There, I said it. Ban me.

Mark

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
And God Bless the Queen Mum. Even as a yank, I always enjoyed watching her very apparent spirit and love of life. There, I said it. Ban me.

Sigh.


Mark, I'm the Marshal here and I have zero problems with this, and even if a varmit or two do, their opinions are merely opinions -- only Bira, Paschal or myself determine what should or shouldn't be posted, not Dudley Donewrong.....

[Redliner]

I think it has to be said that the only person who has stepped out of line on this one is Dudley the King of killing culture . Perhaps he would like it better if we all just listed statistics rather than opinions.

[Carlos Jalife]

Well, Steve certainly was good but Bell and Siffert (hope memory is right) had him covered while filming Le Mans and sandwiched between them and went at racing speeds and the guy held on, he was no casual Momo owner/driver.
On the other hand, Mario insists Steve didn't drive that much and was badly off-pace compared to Revson and that was the reason he pressed so hard, not to let a star win because he felt Steve hadn't done his fair share, something like 6 seconds off-pace per lap.

And about Dudley, if he doesn't like the Queen Mum, hey, he has a right to say it, maybe he is a Cromwell republican or something, just let's see what he has to add in racing terms which is what counts. He should be having a bad day after all these answers. Just leave him alone (and I never heard from him before so I'm no friend of his), I bet he already regrets it.

[fines]

Originally posted by MarkWRX
The type of cancer he had is "associated with asbestos" but nothing I can find says that's the only cause. So I doubt his family could sue.

excuse me, but this is SO American! Can anyone imagine someone outside the USofA saying such a ****?

[Doug Nye]

Michael - I'm really warming to you...tell it like it is, mate....

(And I never intended ever to use these things)

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines

excuse me, but this is SO American! Can anyone imagine someone outside the USofA saying such a ****?

I guess one needs to live here to appreciate that, sadly, it's degenerated to the point where legal action is the only way to accomplish any positive change. Approaching someone and attempting to talk to them and ask them to change something usually is met with a flurry of expletives (if not the threat of physical harm). Used to be there were times you could approach someone and say, "I don't think this is such a good idea because..." and they would listen to you and sometimes even make a change!

Just out of curiousity, how is it handled on the Continent when there is a situation that needs changing? Do discussions with entities still work there?, do they actually *still* listen? (I find it hard to believe that they all would)...or, change not occuring, do vigilantes exact their pound of flesh (I can assure you that's done here sometimes as well )


Jim Thurman

[Jim Thurman]

For a quick sidelight on topic,

I certainly think it's a possibility that asbestos from racing could have affected Steve McQueen (and other racers as well)...and his lifestyle could have also.

In the small town of Alviso, California (the Southern end of San Francisco Bay), the site of a 1/4 mile dirt oval (Alviso Speedway) that operated off and on from the 1930's through October of 1965 sits vacant.

The track site is on land that is essentially the delta area between two rivers that flow from the Coast Range mountains down to the Southern tip of San Francisco Bay.

In the late 1970's, a reservoir built on one of these rivers was found to be heavily contaminated with asbestos. It was determined that the contamination was naturally occuring, coming from the serpentine rock that is common in the area. This was a big story on local news in San Francisco and San Jose.

Cut to the mid 1980's and San Francisco TV stations are in a tizzy over a heavy contamination of asbestos laden soil in the Alviso area. They wonder where it came from and "who dumped it there?"...of course forgetting the reservoir story from seven or eight years earlier. Where did the soil come from?...how about silt coming down from where the reservoir had been built, building up the delta in Alviso?.

I've often wondered if there were higher rates of asbestos related illnesses suffered by drivers or spectators at Alviso Speedway. From what I understand, it was usually a heavy (wet) track, but undoubtedly there were many nights when it dried out and dust was a problem.

Similarly, one wonders about cases of Valley Fever from exposures at dirt tracks in the San Joaquin Valley and Mojave Desert.


Jim Thurman