197 replies to this topic

[Macca]

Ted Rollason's Cooper looked as green as green can be to me at the Revival, and came out green on my 35mm pics exactly as I saw it - but it looks a lot darker as well as a lot bluer in the pics above.


In the first picture, is that Brian Horwood's Lotus 18/21 in the background? Is that the ex-Tony Shelley car?


And in the last picture, do we have DCN's version of Yeoman Credit green in the background?



Paul M

[Ted Walker]

There was a very interesting book published by MAP Technical publications in 1967 written by John Baxter called MOTOR RACING TEAM COLOURS AND MARKINGS in which all the major and minor team colours are identified. COOPER CAR COMPANY. GREEN ICI REF No P030-152 with 2.5 inch White Stripes.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Macca
In the first picture, is that Brian Horwood's Lotus 18/21 in the background?

Looks like it (without having my programme to hand)

Is that the ex-Tony Shelley car?

No - but it is the ex-Tony Shelly car (sorry)

[Barry Boor]

I have the book Ted mentioned. It is very interesting and would be REALLY useful if the ICI paint references in it were of any use when I go to my local Halfords to have some spray paint mixed for one of my models. But as Halfords seem to have nothing that cross references with these numbers, they remain merely interesting.

Back to the Cooper....

It would appear to me that people fall into 4 basic groups:

1. Those who believe the car was always green.
2. Those who believe it was painted blue at some point.
3. Those who are unsure but think that we are all getting fooled by the different light/film from old photographs.
4. Those, like myself, who are just puzzled by the whole business!

Asking Sir Jack might be on option (as I suggested some time ago) but given that the dear old chap had forgotten that he even owned a Lotus 21 in the early 60s, I would doubt that he would be awfully sure about the Cooper. Indeed, he would probably simply assume that it was dark green because all works Coopers were. Which of course, is what several of us have assuming about the T.54 for years!

I fear that the truth may never be known, and that there is a danger that we could finish up going round and round in ever decreasing circles, eventually to disappear up our own exhaust pipes. Should we ask Twinny to wrap this thread up?

It may have to go along with Jack Lewis' Cooper and Charlemagne Tower as unsolved conundrums (or should it be conundra?)

BTW, I won't be making an Indianapolis Cooper slot car (green or blue) - what would I do with it?

Finally, during a visit with my wife to the home of her daughter and her partner last night I brought up the subject of colours in Welsh. All three of them are first language Welsh speakers. Sure enough, to confirm what Pete said, they do indeed use the word 'glas' (meaning blue) for grass or any other growing greenery. Also, grey horses are described as blue in the Welsh language.

I think I need to lie down.....

[Pedro 917]

In the first picture, is that Brian Horwood's Lotus 18/21 in the background? Is that the ex-Tony Shelly car?
Yes, it is :





And in the last picture, do we have DCN's version of Yeoman Credit green in the background?
Yeoman Credit green

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Also, grey horses are described as blue in the Welsh language.

I think I need to lie down.....

And grey greyhounds are called "blue" as well.

[Doug Nye]

DCN Innocent on all Charges... The photograph above shows John Harper's quite extraordinarily wrong 'British Racing Cardboard'-coloured Cooper - the supposed Yeoman Credit Cooper upon which a Pantone colour code I had provided turned out to be a ghastly shade of canal-**** green was the car briefly raced and then comprehensively crashed by 'Danger Mouse' - Martin Stretton...not this one.

DCN

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
...... when I go to my local Halfords to have some spray paint mixed for one of my models.

Barry do you really get Halfords to make paint up rather than just buy an aerosol of (say) BLMC 'Tartan Red ', Ford 'Modena Green' or whatever Tamiya or SMTS tell you? ....
It would appear to me that people fall into 4 basic groups:

1. Those who believe the car was always green.
2. Those who believe it was painted blue at some point.
3. Those who are unsure but think that we are all getting fooled by the different light/film from old photographs.
4. Those, like myself, who are just puzzled by the whole business!
I'm a 3.5, logic points both ways
.....
Should we ask Twinny to wrap this thread up?
I think so, it can only be causing distress to T54 who found and restored the car, and in good faith picked the closest colour he could
.......
BTW, I won't be making an Indianapolis Cooper slot car (green or blue) - what would I do with it?
Photograph it in different light, then throw it across the room in frustration
......
Also, grey horses are described as blue in the Welsh language.
Well, in English white horses are described as grey, yellow or light green wine is described as 'white', the grass in Kentucky is blue, black treacle is green, red chessmen are black, and Shakespear writes of 'blood-red gold'
.....
I think I need to lie down.....
Good idea

Pedro 917,
A great set of pictures to illustrate the problem - cars that photograph as blue at one end and green at the other.

[Barry Boor]

I know this is getting O.T, but to answer D-type, if you look at the Halfords rack, you will be surprised at the colours that are not there!

The main one being light green, of course!

In fact, apart from red , blue and silver, it is quite often difficult to get anywhere near the required colour, hence the mixing.

[Ted Walker]

Barry I do have a set of ICI Paint chips some where that my late father used for colour matching.From these you can see the exact colour you need.We sorted out the correct green for the early works Brabhams from these(green ICI refP031-2248 and gold P031-4389)

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by rdrcr Many hundreds if not thousands of I.Q. points partaking in this thread, and not one assemblage of them has called Sir Jack yet.

If he can't remember, perhaps he can turn those interested to the painter - though lord only knows if he's alive, his brain is fried by the vapours now and his recollections just as worthless.

We'll never know, if that first call never gets made!

Blackie himself, 26-10-04, 11:14am (UK) - "It was a very dark green. It was a different green to our Formula 1 cars. It was an even darker green - can't remember why - maybe it was something to do with our sponsor, Jim Kimberly - he paid the money so he could tell us what colour to paint it, I suppose, but I don't really remember. Jim Kimberly - fantastic bloke - very wealthy, went through six or seven wives, used up all his money and just as he ran out of wives and money...he died. Paced himself, I suppose..."

DCN

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
".....used up all his money and just as he ran out of wives and money...he died. Paced himself, I suppose..."

Now there's a lesson we could all learn...

So it wasn't the regular colour, surely that will satisfy some?

[rdrcr]

Well, I'm satisfied... Thank you Doug for bird-dogging that detail. I can only surmise at this point, Sir Jack's interpretation (to his eye) is correct.

The original (crushed) panel may have been new prior to that damage, thus, no original paint to see. Or, the body was suitably finished so none of the original paint remained. In any case, the original color was a very dark green with deep bluish undertones to achieve that hue.

Funny anecdote about Kimberly... Must have been a time prior to the realization that you don't have to buy the cow, to get milk(ed).


earlier T54 photo (retouched)



Shall we agree to call it a deep, deep teal? ...and that the car is painted close enough?

;)

[Barry Boor]

Sorry, Richard, but no, I cannot accept your last statement. I say this with no desire whatever to upset T.54 - that's the last thing I would want to do to a fellow slot racer, but....

....if the car at Indy was green, as most of us on this side of the pond thought it was and Jack confirms it, there is NO question that the colour it is now painted is incorrect. It is now BLUE - pure and simple. Not greenish blue, or blueish green, it is out and out BLUE - I have stood beside it and looks superb.

But it is not green!

[rdrcr]

Yeah, I suppose... I've seen the car up close too, and in all sorts of different lighting, inside and out.

...it is blue.


I was just trying to find some common ground...

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
...if the car at Indy was green, as most of us on this side of the pond thought it was and Jack confirms it, there is NO question that the colour it is now painted is incorrect. It is now BLUE - pure and simple. Not greenish blue, or blueish green, it is out and out BLUE - I have stood beside it and looks superb.

But it is not green!

I think "blue" is one reasonable description of the car's color. However:




So the restored Kimberly Cooper can easily be "green," depending upon the incidence, intensity and frequency of the ambient light. Meanwhile, cameras don't really "lie," at least not like people think. Cars really do change color relative to light, while the camera will simply tend to tell the truth of that moment. Even pantones and tint charts wil not provide accurate color-matching unless the light source is also carefully controlled.

I say again, in this case we have a much more subtle difference in color than many perceive. "Blue" vs. "green" is a gross oversimplification in my view. As one very clever poster of an anthropolgical bent pointed out, many cultures do not even recognize a distinction. Which is not as backward as one might suppose, as these colors reside in overlapping portions of the visible light spectrum.

Meanwhile, I have noticed the car's owner has departed this discussion. I am thinking of a word here...boundaries. He detailed for us here his considerable efforts to establish the car's true color, only to have his judgement openly challenged by people who clearly went to a lot less trouble in making up their minds -- guesswork, really.

If there were someone I called a friend, or even respected in the slightest as a fellow enthusiast, and I honestly, truly believed that when he reconstructed this unique, historically important car with heart and soul literally from a pile of scrap, he then painted it the "wrong" color, here is what I would do:

First I would gather some halfway convincing proof to support my belief, trying to include some material he probably doesn't already have. Then I would offer the information to him unprovisionally and privately, instead of banging my tambourine on an Internet message board. But that's just what I would do, and I'm sure my ways are terribly quaint.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by McGuire
If there were someone I called a friend, or even respected in the slightest as a fellow enthusiast, and I honestly, truly believed that when he reconstructed this unique, historically important car with heart and soul literally from a pile of scrap, he then painted it the "wrong" color, here is what I would do:

First I would gather some halfway convincing proof to support my belief, trying to include some material he probably doesn't already have. Then I would offer the information to him unprovisionally and privately, instead of banging my tambourine on an Internet message board. But that's just what I would do, and I'm sure my ways are terribly quaint.

A fair point, McGuire
However, if you look back to the first polite questionings of the owner, you will see his reponse was hardly designed to encourage further calm discussion. Instead of questioning the observations of others, he plumb told them they were wrong. Hardly surprising that people took positions on the matter

[Ray Bell]

When did short fuses become the order of the day on TNF?

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
When did short fuses become the order of the day on TNF?

Never, I hope. For whatever I have contributed to any bad feelings on anyone's part, my apologies. Meanwhile, we seem to have run off a member who no doubt had much to contribute, but I'm sure it was the furthest thing from anyone's intent.

[Frank S]

Nice picture of the bleen or grue Cooper, from the Johnson collection:

[Dave Wright]

I think the debate has come to an end, but it wasn't really neccessary to contact Jack. In his book "When the Flag Drops" published in 1971, Jack wrote the following in a chapter entitled Green Cars in Gasoline Alley

Our car, when it was finished, was nothing like any other car they had had at Indy before. It was small, lightweight, rear engined and - for the Americans the worst thing of all - it was painted British racing green (emphasis in the original text). The old superstitions are now beginning to break down a little, but there were three things that struck terror into the hearts of the die-hard Indy people - the appearance of women in the pits or in Gasoline Alley, where all the cars are garaged; the colour green; and eating peanuts! Women, in fact, were completely forbidden to be anywhere near the cars until 1971; I broke the 'green' barrier in 1961; and I suppose you still can't eat peanuts.

[Ted Walker]

The Kimberley mechanics appear to have green writing on their overalla as well !!!!!!!

[willy.henderickx]

Interesting thread.

Someone mentionned that the blue reference panel shows underneath polished aluminium.

Don't forget that the colour and the texture of the surface under the paint (polished or hand beaten metal, primed or not) will affect the rendering of the color.

Regards

Willy

[brickyard]

what's wrong with you guys?

The car is ... RED.




(... just kidding. Sorry but I couldn't help it.)

[T54]

Blackie himself, 26-10-04, 11:14am (UK) - "It was a very dark green. It was a different green to our Formula 1 cars. It was an even darker green - can't remember why -

That was some fascinating reading, with so many different opinions and suggestions. I have immense respect for DCN's opinion, but cannot come to the conclusions drawn. I believe that my wife was correct after she was presented with all the evidence and made the color swab in oils, no less. Indeed, the car changes color with the light and responds precisely to the various descriptions. It is green in the sunlight, blue under clouds, black in the garages. Just like described by the folks who were at the race. I discounted the "BRG" generalities simply because the witnesses, from Paul Page to Frank Falkner to John Cooper to Sir Jack, ALL told me that we got it "just right", and photographic evidence was unsurmountable.
I am not repainting the chameleon at this time, sorry!
But I am still listening... because I know that indeed, I do not know it all, and I was not there.
Barry, please paint the car any color you fancy. How about like this:



;)

[T54]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but at last we have a clear point of comparison from an interesting picture taken in May 1962 by Roy Spencer, posted on Facebook:

"I attach an image of this influential car sitting in our driveway in May 1962 awaiting a trip to the Hillsborough Concours. It's surrounded by my father's LWB California Spyder, a Sebring Sprite, Jaguar SS100 and an MG Magnate. Cool lineup."

The MG is painted in a typical medium-dark "BRG", and the contrast with the Cooper's color strongly pushing on blue could not be more evident. The car is shown here as just purchased from Jim Kimberly by Kjell Kvale, without either engine or gearbox since those were long gone, serving over time, a total of four other Coopers.




 

[bill p]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but at last we have a clear point of comparison from an interesting picture taken in May 1962 by Roy Spencer, posted on Facebook:
"I attach an image of this influential car sitting in our driveway in May 1962 awaiting a trip to the Hillsborough Concours. It's surrounded by my father's LWB California Spyder, a Sebring Sprite, Jaguar SS100 and an MG Magnate. Cool lineup."
The MG is painted in a typical medium-dark "BRG", and the contrast with the Cooper's color strongly pushing on blue could not be more evident. The car is shown here as just purchased from Jim Kimberly by Kjell Kvale, without either engine or gearbox since those were long gone, serving over time, a total of four other Coopers.

But why would the Cooper team finish the T54 in any other colour than Dark Green unless Jim Kimberly asked for blue due to the superstitions about green race cars at Indy?
By the way, "Cooper Green" was a lot darker than British Racing Green shown on the MG

Bill P

[D28]

I have seen quite a few photos of the restored Indy Cooper, most notably in Road & Track some years ago, and it appeared blue to me. That doesn't say anything about how it appeared in the 1961 500. One person who should know and whose word I accept is Jack himself. Thus from When the Flag Drops he has this to say:

 

"It was small,lightweight, rear-engined and_ for the Americans worst of all_ it was painted British racing green."

The title of Chapter X is even  Green Cars in Gasoline Alley. Three things that alarmed Indy insiders were women in pits, the colour green and peanuts, according to Jack.

Edited by D28, 26 July 2016 - 18:02.

[bill p]

I have seen quite a few photos of the restored Indy Cooper, most notably in Road & Track some years ago, and it appeared blue to me. That doesn't say anything about how it appeared in the 1961 500. One person who should know and whose word I accept is Jack himself. Thus from When the Flag Drops he has this to say:
 
"It was small,lightweight, rear-engined and_ for the Americans worst of all_ it was painted British racing green."
The title of Chapter X is even  Green Cars in Gasoline Alley. Three things that alarmed Indy insiders were women in pits, the colour green and peanuts, according to Jack.

Thank you, D38

I've seen T54 over the years and was puzzled by it being painted blue when it should GREEN!

Bill P

[Doug Nye]

It appears to have been an exceptionally dark rendition of the normal Cooper green - like a works Jaguar or darkest Bentley BRG.  I can only assume that paint deterioration or some chemical reaction had altered its remaining layer towards the blue end of the spectrum by the time paint matches were made for restoration.  Matching a repaint to a faded or deteriorated decades-old paint sample will always be misleading...

 

Evidence here of a faintly French predilection for a blue shade perhaps?  (Entirely understandable in Philippe's case, of course)

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 27 July 2016 - 09:05.

[Robin Fairservice]

I did an Internet search for the 1961 Indy 500, and there were several pictures of the Cooper painted a nice dark green.

[T54]

Robin, could you post these pictures here?
I posted that picture taken in May 1962 in northern California to show the contrast between the standard BRG and that very dark color. Michael Cooper tells me that "all the cars" were painted "Connaught green", but I remember seeing the works Cooper F1 race when I was much younger and they definitely were not the same color and nowhere near as dark as what shows on that very telling picture.
The car as it is today, lost a lot of its original green due to fading over the past 25 years, but before any "repaint" is considered, I would want to make sure to see every possible period documents. Michael told me that he will show me what he has on hand at the Revival next September (the T54 is currently on its way to the event).
Outside of the description made to me by John Cooper, Sir Jack and others who "were there", we have plenty of witnesses who were at the '61 Indy-500 who have reported that they thought the car was... black! 
Hence I can accept Doug Nye's description of a darker color, as that May 1962 picture shows.
 

[Robin Fairservice]

This is the link to one of the photos.

 

https://en.wikipedia...r_indy_1961.jpg

[Collombin]

That shot won't help much, that's a 2003 pic of a T53 rather than a 1961 pic of T54!

Edited by E.B., 31 July 2016 - 21:36.

[Robin Fairservice]

Sorry, but I found that picture on a site apparently about the 1961 Indy 500 cars.  I did see some pictures in a link to a Motor Sport report on the race, but they are too dark to be definite about the colour.  Have you seen their report in an original print edition?

 

I would have always said that it was a dark green, from my memory of the race reports that I read in the UK at that time.  (I was old enough to be a flag marshal then!).

[dbltop]

I was at the Indianapolis museum in 2002. While I can't remember what colour the car was that they had there, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the car that Brabham drove in 1961. 

[D-Type]

The car in the Indianaapolis Museum is the backup car, a standard F1 Cooper, a T53 I think.  It has been repainted several times since Indianapolis so its present colour ( or should I say "color") is at best a guess.  Remember that the Indianapolis Museum is not known for scrupulous accuracy - rather, in best US tradition it "gives the public what they want to see".

[Collombin]

or should I say "color"

No.

[eldougo]

In my Indianapolis 500 chronicles by Rick Popely in the results it's listed like this.

No17 - JackBrabham -  Cooper-Climax -  Cooper car co - Cooper Chassis - Green & White color. page 161.

[Spa65]

There appears to be some talk in this thread about checking old photographs to get the "correct" original colour. But surely any original slide or colour print would also have deteriorated from the original colour. Possibly more so than the original car.

 

So, unless some foolproof colour spectrum check against the original car had been done at the time (and I don't know whether that was possible either then or now) or some defined colour was used (e,g. from German RAL standards, or similar, and I don't know if that is foolproof either) then there is no possibility of knowing the original colour.

 

Christ they even got the colour of the Mars landscape wrong on the first lander using all the best technology. Someone noticed an electrical wire in the lander picture was the wrong colour so they fudged everything to make it look right as best they could.

 

So let's stop trying to prove the precise colour. That will never be known. Sounds like it was dark green, but who knows how dark or how green. My old mate saw green as red and it helped me murder him at snooker. (Aided by his other incapabilities about recognising the pink or brown.) I was, and still am, a ruthless bastard. Now piss off y'all,

 

Have a nice day.

 

P.S. Hope your site doesn't use a desanitising spellchecker.

[T54]

Spa65, I like your attitude! 
There are many experts and some vocal ones, but few "were there". The few I met or who contacted me, that saw the car in period and are still around are apparently of the same opinion, as they remember seeing "a black car", something likely enhanced by a sunny day. I have now about a half dozen such testimonies on file. Hence if we have learned one thing, it is that the car was painted in a rather dark shade of... something.
I was not there either, but when we brought the long-lost car to life, we did the best we could with all the elements we had and the testimonies of the ones who "were there". The controversy has been going on ever since... 

I uploaded the picture above (post # 177) to show the contrast between a "British Racing Green" (whatever that means) typical car, VS the Cooper. It is the first I have seen in which the Cooper "Indy" has been pictured next to another green car. Most old pictures are faded, colors deformed... this one less than others. That's all I am pointing out here, that the car could not have been painted in the standard "Connaught green" used on the Cooper F1 cars, because it looks much too "blue" compared to that very green MG . 

And Doug, please, my mom was a true Brit and the great-great-great granddaughter of the second most famous British Navy admiral in history, a Lord of the Admiralty and one who sunk no less than 46 French line ships in his days. How "French" would you like me to be?
Blue is really not my color, white with blue stripes is.
 

[eldougo]

Looks dark green to my eyes.

Edited by eldougo, 03 August 2016 - 09:51.

[bill p]

...........at the Revival next September (the T54 is currently on its way to the event)..........

T54

Looking forward to seeing the Cooper at Goodwood Revival and maybe some slot car chat too

Bill P

[D-Type]

Philippe,

I hope the Goodwood Jinx doesn't strike again and the car behaves herself this time.

[T54]

Duncan, thanks! She does not like fuel of less than 110 octane rating, and needed a bit of fiddling after Indy. Done, and she's back to be the sweetheart she was before 2011. 
 

eldougo, that's in sunlight, and before the color faded, this is pretty much how she was.





 

[arttidesco]

 

In case there is still any doubt remaining I found this race day pic of the Cooper T54 by Mr Ed Arnaudin earlier today I believe he used Kodak slide film.

[eldougo]

On it debut at Indy, in day light a green CooperT54 as listed in the book.

[cooper997]

The USAC Technical Committee Data sheet for the T54's 1961 Indy race states 'COLOR OF CAR (printed)  GREEN (handwritten)'

 

I recall over 20 years ago a friend restoring an Australian-built Morris Cooper S,with the original BRG colour being of the dark spectrum of the many BRG's out there. In the roof cant rails, normally hidden by the headlining on Australian cars, it appeared dark blue where some factory overspray hit this area. Almost enough to think that the factory painter had started to paint the car Marine Blue (an official colour for them), before changing to the BMC Australia shade of BRG.

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 06 August 2016 - 07:00.