32 replies to this topic

[rgagne]

Just reading the post about a possible return of Jos Verstappen in F1, i came to wonder this:

Why has not Mika Salo have an F1 drive in the last few years?

He is a good driver, and was even chosen by Ferrari to replace MS when he got hurt. He is doing well so far with Toyota... so why no teams wanted him before???

RGagne

[tombr]

I believe that he had been driving for many seasons until last year when he opted to take the development seat at Toyota rather than take a racing seat. I think that he was highly enough rated that he would have found a seat last year. In retrospect, his year off of racing looks like it worked out. It could have been that Toyota turned out to be another BAR but they look like they could help keep Salo in the points regularly. Maybe even a podium this year with a few breaks.

[tombr]

"Borrowed" from www.forix.com ...
1994 - F1: Lotus Mugen-Honda, 2 races
1995 - F1: Tyrrell Yamaha, 15th, 5 points
1996 - F1: Tyrrell Yamaha, 13th, 5 points
1997 - F1: Tyrrell Ford, 16th, 2 points
1998 - F1: Arrows, 13th, 3 points
1999 - F1: BAR-Supertec (3 races); Ferrari (6 races as substitute driver for the injured Michael Schumacher), 10th, 10 points (2 podium finishes)
2000 - F1: Red Bull Sauber Petronas, 11th, 6 points

--------------------------

In the year he subbed for MS, he had a win in the bag but gave it to Irvine on team orders. Salo can drive.

[karlth]

Originally posted by rgagne
Why has not Mika Salo have an F1 drive in the last few years?

He is a good driver, and was even chosen by Ferrari to replace MS when he got hurt. He is doing well so far with Toyota... so why no teams wanted him before???

We held a long and friendly discussion about Mika Salo's merits as a driver in this thread some
weeks ago:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=36560

[POLAR]

Why did'nt Mika Salo get more F1 seats ? Because he only got one butt.

Polar

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by karlth


We held a long and friendly discussion about Mika Salo's merits as a driver in this thread some
weeks ago:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=36560

There was quite a strong argument in that thread that Salo wasn't at all quick.

Toyota finished a lap behind in Brazil. They are gaining, now they seem only 1-2 seconds off the pace. Which of course is a huge amount to make up. Given some aero work, the due 7 speed gearbox, they might be within a second. If that was the case, I think they would regret Salo's on track performance, but not his development skills. But McNish is slower anyway it seems, although a rookie.

[logic]

Toyota used the same car in Brazil they used in Australia. The have many improvements to Imola and I hope they can be nearer top teams and catch Renault.

Mika Salo said that thei launch control is not good at all. He losed four positions in the start so it's frustrating to qualify top ten if you know you'll lose many positions.

Thay also planned to take new , more hydraulic, engine to Brazil but due to the problems they had in testing it was moved to later. Kope they bring it with reliability to San Marino.

Toyota is doing big improvements ad I hope Salo can be regularly in the points
Definitely he has now better changes than ever to score points.

I don't know why top teams didn't before want him as regular driver. But very luck he's now in the best team that f1 has nowadays

[malc]

this thing about Salo being slow is robbish. Irvine had all the experience about a car and a team and he was driving for WDC. He had four races together with Salo and in two of them Salo was a way faster than Eddie, in Hockenheim and in Imola. Not bad at all to me.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by malc
this thing about Salo being slow is robbish. Irvine had all the experience about a car and a team and he was driving for WDC. He had four races together with Salo and in two of them Salo was a way faster than Eddie, in Hockenheim and in Imola. Not bad at all to me.

And Salo was in the BAR at Imola too!

Salo at Imola was BAR's first ever finish, ands their best finish of 1999.

[Viktor]

The rumers back in 1996/97 was that Ferrari wanted Mika to replace Irvine but Tyrrell did not want to release him from his contract so he never got a chans at Ferrari. I think he got the Ferrari drive in 1999 so Ferrari could test him and se if he was the driver to take over from Irvine at the end of the season but thay selected Barrichello insted.

/Viktor

[K-One]

Originally posted by Viktor
The rumers back in 1996/97 was that Ferrari wanted Mika to replace Irvine but Tyrrell did not want to release him from his contract so he never got a chans at Ferrari. I think he got the Ferrari drive in 1999 so Ferrari could test him and se if he was the driver to take over from Irvine at the end of the season but thay selected Barrichello insted.

/Viktor

I heard that reason why Salo couldn't get Ferrari seat was that Barrichellos deal was done prior Silverstone...Don't know if that's true though...

[TT6]

Originally posted by malc
this thing about Salo being slow is robbish.

Me thinks that too. If Salo is as slow as Karlth thinks, then McNish is awfully slow.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by K-One
I heard that reason why Salo couldn't get Ferrari seat was that Barrichellos deal was done prior Silverstone...Don't know if that's true though...

According to Salo himself that was the case. But Rubens is way faster than Salo will ever be, so Ferrari did the right choice anyhow.

[logic]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
But Rubens is way faster than Salo will ever be, so Ferrari did the right choice anyhow.

: You forget to say that it is your opinion :

[malc]

Sorry about Salo being at Imola, of course I meant MONZA! But he would´ve been a good Ferrari driver. Perhaps Michael didn´t want him afterall, who knows....

[K-One]

Originally posted by Ghostrider


According to Salo himself that was the case. But Rubens is way faster than Salo will ever be, so Ferrari did the right choice anyhow.

Although Salo might be way slower than Rubens, I guess Salo would bring Ferrari in front of confused Pele at least once in 3 races...

[karlth]

Perhaps Salo would only have been lapped once in Hungary next year.

[K-One]

Originally posted by karlth
Perhaps Salo would only have been lapped only once in Hungary next year.

Don't think so, 'cause I saw Salo&McNish testing with Toyota at Hungaroring 4.9.2001 and Salo was way faster than McNish...And yes - testing means everything.

[maclaren]

Salo is excellent driver for middle field team. He gets the job done, unlike many higher rated drivers.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by K-One


Don't think so, 'cause I saw Salo&McNish testing with Toyota at Hungaroring 4.9.2001 and Salo was way faster than McNish...And yes - testing means everything.

Yes especially when one knows what they are testing!

From what I've read, Toyota wouldn't have given McNish the F1 drive unless he had shown he had the pace of Salo. But it seems to me mcNish hasn't the race or pole pace of Salo, although McNish is while old, still is a rookie.

[Mellon]

One thing that makes some underrate Salo is that he usually is a lot better in races than in qualifying, although it appears that he has improved in qualifying over the past year. And he is very good at keeping a steady pace through a race, fuel and tires allowing of course, unnlike some that will turn in demon laps and balance them with some filled with small mistakes. This not only improves reliability but usually helps him get more out of the tires, and in addition is invaluable for a new team like Toyota as the telemetry is more useful when driving steady laps.

[Toyoter]

Salo has two top 10 quals and two points finishes in a car that most here said wouldn't even qualify or finish a race. I think that's easily proof enough that he's doing a damn fine job with Toyota. He's quick, he's incredibly consistent, and you can tell he has a fire in his belly.

This talk about Rubens being quicker than Salo is a joke. Am I the only one who watched him qualify 8th at his home frigging track last Sunday? Sure he lost his top time due to a penalty, but I believe that even with that top time he still would have been 8th! Rubens is losing it. I'm wondering if he'll even have a drive at all in 2003.

[tombr]

Salo has two top 10 quals and two points finishes

Note that these were 2 out of only Toyoto's first 3 races.

[jimmy mike]

Salo has never been much of qualifier. He's racer who brings vital points to team. At Brasil, i think he overtook at least Heidfeld, Massa and Irvine and really again showed why midfield teams are hiring this guy. Salo has amazing gift of keeping out of trouble. When ever there is bizarre race with lot of retirements, Salo somehow can keep himself out trouble. Again at Brasil, Salo was able stay out of flying pieces of Monty's front wing, but his teammate McNish who followed Salo ruined his race by running over depris. How wrong karlth and his friends were!;)

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Toyoter
... Salo has two top 10 quals and two points finishes in a car that most here said wouldn't even qualify or finish a race. ...

There were some stirrers who doubted Toyota, but many who didn't. So what, forget about what people hypothesised, its not pleasant having someone complain about comments made by biased and argumentative stirrer type posters here at AtlasF1. The topics should be the focus, not errors that people made, deliberately or not. There was much comment from experienced journalists including at Atlas who predicted much from Toyota. Also don't forget that Toyota themselves downplayed their potential to a more than significant degree. So Toyota have got some points - great. They need to get two seconds closer, that's the real issue for many around here.

[karlth]

My criticism was never directed at Toyota, apart from choosing Salo that is, they have developed a brilliant car for this season. It is simply my opinion that Toyota is underperforming because of Salo, i.e. Toyota would be more competitive with a faster driver.

[Mellon]

Originally posted by karlth
Toyota would be more competitive with a faster driver.

Really?

Seriously, I think Salo was an excellent choice. He has loads of F1 experience from many different cars including the '99 WCC Ferrari. In addition he was willing to take a year off from competitive driving. I don't think Toyota could have found a better qualified driver. At this time he is also outperforming McNish quite comprehensivly. If a faster driver was available, I think Salo would still be pretty secure in his seat.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by karlth
My criticism was never directed at Toyota, apart from choosing Salo that is, they have developed a brilliant car for this season. It is simply my opinion that Toyota is underperforming because of Salo, i.e. Toyota would be more competitive with a faster driver.

Karlth I thought you argued that Toyota chose Salo because Salo was a viewed by Toyota as a good developer. I thought you did not really criticise Toyota for choosing Salo for that role. I thought you were saying he was overall a below average racer. Since Toyota have developed a good car (although for all we know they have not got the best out of it) then I think Toyota's choice of Salo for his development role should have won your approval. As to his race ability, adding up the best race sector times in Malaysia had the Toyota 5th fastest car. But since their race performance was well below that, maybe one could argue that the drivers are not consistent. But then the team is so new, one can hardly criticise inconsistent sectors, especially when the team may be fiddling between numberous stops. I don't think the Brazil sector differentials made Toyota look so fast either, they were not fifth fastest, more like 8th or 9th I think. The real problem though with your attack on Salo is McNish, who seems much slower. He's making Salo look fast, which hurts your argument somewhat.

It does make me wonder though what a young MS would do with a couple of years at Toyota though. Still I think Toyota itself has an agenda; I suspect they want to gradually get better, rather than be suddenly fast and then maybe slower a year later. If that's the case, slower development type drivers maybe just what Toyota really want for the first year, or two.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I thought you argued that Toyota chose Salo because Salo was a viewed by Toyota as a good developer. I thought you did not really criticise Toyota for choosing Salo for that role. I thought you were saying he was overall a below average racer. Since Toyota have developed a good car (although for all we know they have not got the best out of it) then I think Toyota's choice of Salo for his development role should have won your approval.

I never really commented on Salo's qualifications as a development driver. He might well be excellent in that role, it's his race credentials I've been questioning. I can understand Toyota considering Salo to be good enough to develop their first Formula 1 car but I fail to see what part of his blotted CV could have made Toyota hire him as their season driver as well.

I think. The real problem though with your attack on Salo is McNish, who seems much slower. He's making Salo look fast, which hurts your argument somewhat.

Alan McNish, although an excellent GT driver, is an unknown F1 quantity. When teamed up with experienced F1 drivers Mika Salo has failed to impress.

[Melbourne Park]

From Karlth's Thread Intro: The reasons for Toyota opting for Mika Salo were probably that he is considered a good test driver. Toyota of course needed to build a car from scratch and feedback from an experienced Formula 1 driver was necessary.

Ok that's not a comment I guess its an observation...

... What is difficult to understand is that Toyota who is pouring
hundreds of millions of dollars into the F1 program should have chosen Mika Salo as their race
driver as well. What good is if the Toyota engine proves to be 0.2s a lap faster than Honda's?
Villeneuve and Fisichella are driving for Honda and they are much faster than Salo will ever
be. That Toyota with all its resources didn't sign a top Formula 1 driver for their first season
instead of the slow Finn will cost Toyota dearly this season.

My presumption is that Toyota did not see a good reason to have a top driver until they have a top car. And despite Salo's possable slowness, Toyota have even scored some points from him. One can certainly question how much better Toyota might be with a top driver. We saw last year how in the first half of the year, JPM was 0.7 seconds slower than Ralf (in my and other opinions at the time). Its quite reasonable to see half a second difference between drivers. Maybe a top driver can improve the package as well, to add up to a second if the car is properly set up. I'd imagine that Toyota were much averse to the BAR situation, where the brand will be criticised because the driver is not able to perform, which has been the case with Vileneuve. I recall MS being quite unhappy about the early Ferrari, and Ferrari copped quite a bit at the time. By having Salo and McNish, all that has been avoided.

As to the topic, I am not sure whether Salo's any good; he looks OK at the moment. McNish looks out of his depth, but if he can add the 0.7 seconds that the more talented JPM did last year, then McNish might be the equal of Salo.

[Mellon]

Originally posted by karlth
I can understand Toyota considering Salo to be good enough to develop their first Formula 1 car but I fail to see what part of his blotted CV could have made Toyota hire him as their season driver as well.

I think it would have been impossible for Toyota to employ Salo as a test driver without signing him for additional years as their regular driver. And I don't think they would have, even if it was possible, continuity is very important when developing a new car. New developments on the car can be evaluated more efficiently and conclusivly if the driver is the same as when test data was gathered for the old model.

[Locai]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


There was quite a strong argument in that thread that Salo wasn't at all quick.

Toyota finished a lap behind in Brazil. They are gaining, now they seem only 1-2 seconds off the pace. Which of course is a huge amount to make up. Given some aero work, the due 7 speed gearbox, they might be within a second. If that was the case, I think they would regret Salo's on track performance, but not his development skills. But McNish is slower anyway it seems, although a rookie.

One thing to keep in mind -- Since Toyota is a new team they are not as fully developed as a team like Ferrari or Williams. It would be less difficult for Toyota to make up 1-2 seconds per lap than it would be for Ferrari to gain another 1-2 seconds per lap.

Since Toyota has only actually raced 3 times they have probably uncovered some areas where they need to improve.

I'm not saying that it will be easy to make up the time, it just won't be as hard as a front runner gaining the same amount.

[palmas]

The choice of Salo came partly from the need to have a decent experient driver, that would take a year to test and not race, betting his carreer on a car that could be a slow Minardi! Salo took the bet and deserves credit for it.
I shure MS and other would (now) make the car look faster, but they then were not options for Toyota.

The point is Salo is doing his job quite well, and the have been no sign of his pranks, so Toyota will most certainly keep him for next year.

McNish, well, we'll see, as the blind man used to say!