40 replies to this topic

[arthurive]

I'd like to start a thread regarding my admittedly favorite driver, Fisichella, and expand
into the fortunes of Italian drivers in F1.
As most of you that follow F1 are aware, Fisichella has done a magnificent job versus his
teammates since 1996. He's had Lamy, Ralf, Wurz and Button, through 2001. Without
going into specifics (I know what they are but it's not necessary).
I mean, simply put, what's a guy have to do? We saw the way that team principals were
salivating over last year's darling, Kimi Raikkonen. But did Raikkonen really show any more
in 2001 than Fisichella did in 1997? I know Fisichella did 8 races in '96, but you get the point.
Now the latest craze is surrounding Massa. The kid's quick, but I don't see "Senna".
Yet, we have Massa linked to Ferrari and Fisichella likely to be overlooked again, should
Barrichello leave at the end of 2002.

What's the deal here? Over the last 20 years, we've had 3 stand out teams; McLaren, Williams
and Ferrari. Two of these teams will NOT employ Italians.
Is there a bias in F1 against Italians? Ron Dennis' loathing of Ferrari is well known, and I suppose
that loathing could/has manisfest itself in a general dislike of Italians and Italy.
Ferrari is something different, or is it? Is Jean Todt preventing an Italian driver from competing
at Ferrari? The "No Italian driver policy" at Ferrari is myth or fact?

Then there is the general British media nonsense, which is easliy illustrated by the Jenson Button
story: They loved him in 2000, all but called him a tosser in 2001, and are now praising the young
lad once again. In case they haven't noticed Jenson's the same kid. The CAR has changed.
And accordingly, a driver's performance changes along with the car. Why is it that the British
media love to build up an individual and then tear them back down? All the time overlooking
the obvious, which is the CAR. And finally, the David Coulthard phenomenon. A driver that has
never made a serious title run and has always had top drawer drives, yet NEVER seems to
receive any criticism? If an Italian had spent 5-6 years in top teams with Coulthard's level of
performance, the "British media" would have castigated the guy year's ago as "non-deserving"

[Mrv]

Ron Dennis would never hire an Italian. Too bad, he made a big mistake, and should have took Fisi instead of Kimi due to experience. I am glad it never happened. Fisi my man at Mclaren would have been too much for me to stomach. Luca wake up at smell the coffee it is time......

[davioissimo]

Excellant reading I totally agree and you put it extremely factually, directly but true and fair. Your dead right about the British press I wish everyone would ignore them I'm afraid though all the media hype works almost as well as direct propaganda and I just hope that team managers see through it all but like you said it does seem they haven't, Jenson was the only real showing of Fisichella's driving, mind there was ecuses for Wurz, Lamy, early Ralf, but yeah Ron should've had him I hope it was just an assumption Ferrari would want him by Ron and Fisichella feeling awkward about competing against Ferrari and the Italians would surely slate him.Go Fissico !!!

[JDeRosa]

being Italian...one thing I must see before dying is an Italian WDC at Ferrari. I'm sure there are many more out there who feel the same. I am a Ferrari fan first and foremost, then drivers.... but an Italian WDC @ Ferrari would just fill my heart with an unspeakable passion!!!

[Mrv]

Originally posted by JDeRosa
being Italian...one thing I must see before dying is an Italian WDC at Ferrari. I'm sure there are many more out there who feel the same. I am a Ferrari fan first and foremost, then drivers.... but an Italian WDC @ Ferrari would just fill my heart with an unspeakable passion!!!

Mine too. But don't bet on it

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by JDeRosa
being Italian...one thing I must see before dying is an Italian WDC at Ferrari. I'm sure there are many more out there who feel the same. I am a Ferrari fan first and foremost, then drivers.... but an Italian WDC @ Ferrari would just fill my heart with an unspeakable passion!!!

You speak the truth paisan.

If I recall correctly - and this is somewhat ironic - while Barrichello call Brazil his home country, he is of Italian ancestry, with his father having gone to Brazil after WWII. I believe I read that somewhere back when Barrichello joined Ferrari, but I don't recall where.

[SennasCat]

I would be so 'appy to see Fisi replace Rubens. They the rest of the team bosses could work out that he is probably the equal second quickest driver in the game. On raw speed I would rate Montoya just, thenSchumi and Fisi equal second and the rest a damn long way away. I saw Fisi in Melbourne and even with that third-rate Jordan, his driving really spoke to me. PS I would probably rate Ralf as best of the rest

[Ghostrider]

Arhurive, your post is one of the best I have read in a long time on this BB.

I totally agree 100 % with what you are saying. What does Fisi have to do to get a top-ride? He has dominated every team-mate, and these guys have not been any slouches either. Still, no calls from the top teams. He seems cursed in some way. The top English teams don't want him because he is Italian, and the top Italian team does not want him for the same reason. Crazy.

And the British press, just read this from Autosport today:
"After a tough season spent in Giancarlo Fisichella's shadow in 2000, 22-year-old Button has bounced back in style this season, scoring two fourth places (equalling his best F1 result) and generally getting the better of his highly regarded team-mate Jarno Trulli"

generelly getting the better..that is crap talk...1-2 in qualifying and 1-2 in races when Trulli's car has broken down...is that generelly getting the better..

I have nothing against Button, but I can't stand this unbiased press, very annoying.

Go Fisi!!

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Scudetto


You speak the truth paisan.

If I recall correctly - and this is somewhat ironic - while Barrichello call Brazil his home country, he is of Italian ancestry, with his father having gone to Brazil after WWII. I believe I read that somewhere back when Barrichello joined Ferrari, but I don't recall where.

His Grandparents were born in Italy. I am not sure if his parents were born in Italy or Brazil. Any way it doesn't matter he is Brazillian. Did you see him at Hockenheim in 2000? What a proud moment for him as he held that Brazillian flag.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Mrv


His Grandparents were born in Italy. I am not sure if his parents were born in Italy or Brazil. Any way it doesn't matter he is Brazillian. Did you see him at Hockenheim in 2000? What a proud moment for him as he held that Brazillian flag.

Yeah, maybe his grandparents. Whatever the case, "Barrichello" is an Italian name.

[Turbo]

Hmmm, Fisi leaves Jordan on poor car performance clause and replaces Barrichello next year. Michael damages his ACL playing soccer. Full team resources go to Fisi. Fisi WDC for Ferrari in 2003!

Stranger things have happened. Not MUCH stranger, but stranger.

[baddog]

I only wish that ferrari would see whats in front of their face and make a real offer to Giancarlo. Maybe they have a plan... I cannot imagine anything in F1 that would make me happier than seeing my favourite driver in a Ferrari.

Shaun

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by baddog
I only wish that ferrari would see whats in front of their face and make a real offer to Giancarlo. Maybe they have a plan... I cannot imagine anything in F1 that would make me happier than seeing my favourite driver in a Ferrari.

Shaun

Your favorite driver winning the WDC for Ferrari, maybe?

[baddog]

well.. Im not one for making predictions.. just seeing him in the car will do for now ;)

Shaun

[tania_walesuk]

Arthurive... A very good thread much thought put into it and I totally agree with you on the subject fisi is such a wasted driver at jordan he is not getting his high in that car ... Lets just hope he take RB's place in the ferrari

[Mrv]

In the lastest news Ferrari would like to re-sign Rubens, but Rubens is talking to other teams it seems. He is keeping his options open. Ferrari are interested in a few drivers on the grid that would replace him if things don't work out. Fisi would be a bonus, right LUCA!!!

[Rene]

Fisi in a Ferrari would make me very happy!!! (the only thing which would make my happier is to see JV in a Ferrari)

[Mrv]

JV would be my second choice behind Fisi.

[TimC]

Good post arthurive. It is a true shame that Fisichella is so often overlooked. Here is a guy who, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to prove in F1. He has beaten every teammate put against him. Yet when it is time to hand out the good seats, he is always overlooked. On what rational basis do you choose Raikkonen over Fisichella? Or keep Coulthard or Barrichello in leiu of hiring Fisichella? Coulthard and Barrichello in particular are known quantities, drivers we know are not capable of carrying a World Championship challange for an entire season. Both excellent drivers to be sure, but neither look capable of championships. And while Raikkonen has potential, did he do anything to earn a ride in one of 6 potential winning cars? If so, I never saw it. Meanwhile, this exceptional talent is forced to waste another year in a horrible car. And while at first glance your premise that a bias against Italian drivers exists at Ferrari and McLaren seems wide of the mark, I can't think of another reasonable explaination why Fisichella wasn't even CONSIDERED for the open seat at McLaren. I admit that we don't know that Fisichella is more capable than a Coulthard or a Barrichello in sustaining a World Championship challange, but there certainly is evidence to support the argument that he is. Yet it seems that his career is destined to be one of untapped potential. All the talent in the world, but always in the wrong car at the wrong time. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, as like you I admire the hell out of Fisichella. There is something right about Fisichella piloting a Ferrari. Here is hoping that Michael Schumacher will allow that to happen in 2003.

[The First MH]

Originally posted by Rene
Fisi in a Ferrari would make me very happy!!! (the only thing which would make my happier is to see JV in a Ferrari)

I'll second that

[HardRock]

To see Fisico driving for Jordan this yeas has been the hardest thing so far.
What a waste of talent. I would love to see him driving for Ferrari and that would
be a dream come true. My second choice for Ferrari Villenueve.
Go Fisico don't give up.

[HardRock]

Originally posted by Mrv
JV would be my second choice behind Fisi.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by TimC
Good post arthurive. It is a true shame that Fisichella is so often overlooked. Here is a guy who, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to prove in F1. He has beaten every teammate put against him. Yet when it is time to hand out the good seats, he is always overlooked. On what rational basis do you choose Raikkonen over Fisichella? Or keep Coulthard or Barrichello in leiu of hiring Fisichella? Coulthard and Barrichello in particular are known quantities, drivers we know are not capable of carrying a World Championship challange for an entire season. Both excellent drivers to be sure, but neither look capable of championships. And while Raikkonen has potential, did he do anything to earn a ride in one of 6 potential winning cars? If so, I never saw it. Meanwhile, this exceptional talent is forced to waste another year in a horrible car. And while at first glance your premise that a bias against Italian drivers exists at Ferrari and McLaren seems wide of the mark, I can't think of another reasonable explaination why Fisichella wasn't even CONSIDERED for the open seat at McLaren. I admit that we don't know that Fisichella is more capable than a Coulthard or a Barrichello in sustaining a World Championship challange, but there certainly is evidence to support the argument that he is. Yet it seems that his career is destined to be one of untapped potential. All the talent in the world, but always in the wrong car at the wrong time. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, as like you I admire the hell out of Fisichella. There is something right about Fisichella piloting a Ferrari. Here is hoping that Michael Schumacher will allow that to happen in 2003.

Fisi wasn't considered by McLaren because he was under contract to somebody else - Flavio. Now there is a man unlikely to deal with Ron Dennis and vice versa. I would love to see Fisi in a Ferrari, just not under the same circumstances as Rubens/Eddie.

Give MS a Sauber!!
Give Fisi and Massa a Ferrari!

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Just my .2 cents about a certain aspect about Fisico at Ferrari.
I am an Italian citizen from Rome, just like "er' Fisico".
He is loved in Rome and Italy and is a fantastic driver. it would be nice too see him in red one day, however, I will not loose sleep over it if he doesn't.

HOWEVER i want to elaborate on certain views about teamorders w/ an Italian at Ferrari (and how this can be catastrophic according to some).
Here is an insight on ITALIAN, not press, but Ferrari fans in Italy.

Many years ago, at the San Marino Grand Prix, Patrese was leading comfortably, being chased by Tambay in a No.27 Ferrari. Patrese was looking good for a home win until his engine blew up in white smoke at Aque Minerali (fantastic corner BTW).

The crowd goes ultra wild and CHEERS Patrese's retirement, whilstles a him, and goes crazy for Tambay's win for Ferrari. The Ferrari win was in memory of the recently decesed Canadian, GV.

This is how hard Ferrari fans in Italy can be on Italian drivers. Think about it!

So if Fisico is asked to move over for MS one day,yeah Rombo Motori, Autosprint, Gazzetta and Corriere will go crazy, but the Italian fan will always say, sorry, Ferrari WDC first and foremost, no matter who has to move over.

Cheers

[Jackman]

Although I don't support Ferrari, I do support everything else Italian, including Fisichella. I would love for him to have a competative drive, including Ferrari, and would be smiling from ear to ear to see it.

He currently has a 3 year contract with Jordan, although apparently there are opt out clauses if they do not perform. I can only hope that Barrichello goes looking for money and Montezemolo is able to snatch up Fisico for the drive.

If that happens, I may even buy myself a red cap

[JDeRosa]

Originally posted by Mrv
JV would be my second choice behind Fisi.

right on bro!!

[Ghostrider]

JV and Fisi at Ferrari. Would be almost to good to be true.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Fisi wasn't considered by McLaren because he was under contract to somebody else - Flavio. Now there is a man unlikely to deal with Ron Dennis and vice versa. I would love to see Fisi in a Ferrari, just not under the same circumstances as Rubens/Eddie.

Give MS a Sauber!!
Give Fisi and Massa a Ferrari!

Fishi's contract with benetton and flavio ended in 01.He was a free agent and mclaren would of been fully aware of that.
The Italian driver, who has not won a Formula One race yet, was overlooked when McLaren chose Finn Kimi Raikkonen as a replacement for the departing Mika Hakkinen last year, and he admitted that upset him.

"Of course it did," Fisichella said. "He hasn't got the experience yet as a driver and they paid a lot of money to Sauber to have him. So I don't understand why, after Mika Hakkinen, which is one of the best drivers in Formula One and with more experience, they went for a very young driver. But that's life


This isnt the first time hes displayed his dismay at getting overlooked for that mclaren drive.
if he wasnt available why would he be so annoyed that he was overlooked.

Dennis has seen a lot of fishi over the years and he obviously has not seen enough to swayed in hiring him to drive his cars.
He instead paid 16 million (8 to kimi+8 to sauber) for a raw inexperienced rookie.

[Mrv]

Ron doesn't like anything Italian that is quite obvious. This is his team and he can do what he wants to. If he thinks, throwing away 20 million on Kimi is the right way to go then he will have to live with that decision.

[Ghostrider]

If Fisi comes to Ferrari, Mr Dennis will have to live with regretting that decision. He should have snapped up Fisi when he had the chance, after all he was prepared to give Wurz the seat, and we all know Fisi is faster than Wurz.

And as said above, Fisi wasn't under any future contract last year. His manager phoned McLaren, but they didn't seem interested.

[Garagiste]

1-2 in qualifying and 1-2 in races when Trulli's car has broken down...is that generelly getting the better

Erm, yes it is! What do you want them to say "Jenson has two more points finishes than his team mate, so is generally doing worse? Honestly! I can see why people slate the British press - it is very bad very often (particularly the generalist press), but I can't see what's wrong with the above.

I think BBC above has it about right regarding the pressure cooker atmosphere that an Italian driver would experience at Ferrari, and can you imagine the split loyalties and politicing that would result if one were to join whilst the big shoe is incumbent? I'm not a fan, so I wouldn't mind watching the fur fly, but some of you Tifosi want to be careful what you wish for IMO...

Edited out apostrophe abuse.

[BRG]

Oh yes, a great post, arthurive Congratulations - you have managed to combine in one post:-

* the myth that Fisichella is some sort of superstar
* an attack on Ron Dennis
* an attack on the British media
* and of course the compulsory sideswipe at David Coulthard

With that selection of prejudices, you will fit in real well here!

Firstly, let's get it clear that Ferrari has long been reluctant to employ Italian drivers since way back. After getting his fingers burnt a few times, Enzo Ferrari himself positively avoided Italians. Why? Because the Italian media and the tifosi made his life a misery - if Ferrari's Italian driver didn't win every single race, they would be baying for his head. Latterly, they did employ Michele Alboreto of course.

Secondly, just because you don't like Ron Dennis. to imply that he is anti-Italian is a low blow. I cannot recall McLaren employing an Italian driver, but then, McLaren has always sought to employ the very best drivers, and for some reason there haven't really been many top-line Italian drivers for a very long time. In the last 20 years or so, I can only recall Naninni, Patrese, Alboreto and Fabi who were real contenders. And when you had the likes of Lauda, Prost and Senna on your books, none of those looked like realistic alternatives.

Then you come out with the old chestnut about the British media. Exactly WHY do you think that the British media shouldn't be interested in British drivers? No-one expects the Brazilian , German, Italian, French, Finnish etc etc media not to back thier own drivers. So why the double standards when it comes to the British media? Just another handy stick to beat the British with, I guess. there's a simple answer - if you don't like our media, then get a better one of your own.

And finally, the traditional anti-Coulthard comment. Why should the British media criticise this guy. He wins races and he has been 2nd or 3rd in the WDC for several years, which is more than your favourite Mr Fisichella has ever looked likely to do. After Brazil, Coulthard became the second highest British F1 points scorer, behind only Nigel Mansell. And he may yet beat Mansell's total. What exactly should the British media be criticising him for? And incidentally, we have already discussed an Italian driver who spent years in top teams (Ferrari) without achieveing much - Alboreto. But I don't hear anyone (Italian or British) uttering a word against him. Funny that!

[AMD]

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
Many years ago, at the San Marino Grand Prix, Patrese was leading comfortably, being chased by Tambay in a No.27 Ferrari. Patrese was looking good for a home win until his engine blew up in white smoke at Aque Minerali (fantastic corner BTW).

didn't Patrese spin off, not an engine failure, in the 1983 San Marino Grand Prix?

[effone2k]

Originally posted by arthurive



What's the deal here? Over the last 20 years, we've had 3 stand out teams; McLaren, Williams
and Ferrari. Two of these teams will NOT employ Italians.

Alboreto drove for Ferrari during the 80's-Ivan Capelli in the 90's (if anyone wants to remember-in fairness to him the car sucked mega!!!); Patrese drove for Williams in '92 (NIgel's championship year). I can't think of any Italians at McLaren in the last 20 years.

I agree with your post-I like GF and hope he gets out of his Jordan GP deal.

Forza Fisi!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dazed and confused]

Originally posted by JDeRosa
being Italian...one thing I must see before dying is an Italian WDC at Ferrari. I'm sure there are many more out there who feel the same. I am a Ferrari fan first and foremost, then drivers.... but an Italian WDC @ Ferrari would just fill my heart with an unspeakable passion!!!

Well, you just have to get rid of MS then. Can you imagine what would happen if Fisichella was to lead Italian GP in a Ferrari, with MS on second spot also driving a Ferrari...and then Todt would make "the call" to Fisi to let MS by I can guarantee you that tifosis would kill some people at Ferrari. I guess MS has to retire someday and then your dream may come true.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by BRG
I cannot recall McLaren employing an Italian driver,

How can anybody forget Andrea de Cesaris in 1981?
But then, he totalled about one car per GP weekend on average that year!

OT, as I have much respect for Fisi and Andrea did better afterwards - but could'nt resist.

[metz]

Originally posted by JDeRosa
being Italian...one thing I must see before dying is an Italian WDC at Ferrari. !

How much time you got?

[JDeRosa]

Originally posted by metz


How much time you got?

as long as it takes I guess!!!;)

Originally posted by Dazed and confused


Well, you just have to get rid of MS then. Can you imagine what would happen if Fisichella was to lead Italian GP in a Ferrari, with MS on second spot also driving a Ferrari...and then Todt would make "the call" to Fisi to let MS by I can guarantee you that tifosis would kill some people at Ferrari. I guess MS has to retire someday and then your dream may come true.

You may be right, I'd rather see Ruby get the boot and Fisi replace him. I won't lose hope.

[BRG]

Originally posted by scheivlak
How can anybody forget Andrea de Cesaris in 1981

Thanks - I might have known that there was an Italian somewhere in McLaren's history! How could I have overlooked Andrea!!?

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by AMD

didn't Patrese spin off, not an engine failure, in the 1983 San Marino Grand Prix?

Sorry, mebbe' u are right, I forgot

[holiday]

Originally posted by JDeRosa
being Italian...one thing I must see before dying is an Italian WDC at Ferrari.

Hope you are young then.

Fisi yet has made unrivalled bad career choices and Trulli is outing himself more and more as Quali-prodigy without enough stamina in the races. IMO both are potential multiple race winners, but not WDC material. I mean, how long have they been around now and still not got a top seat? Are all team principals blind or rather their fans? To me, both Fis and Trulli belong to the lost generation, the one which never really made the impression they could threaten Schumacher. Cheers to Panis, Frentzen, DC and Barrichello by the way.