Recent contraversy over Micheal's problems with passing of backmarkers brought back memories of Senna's ferocious tactics when confronted by backmarkers.
Early in his career he made it obvious that he was passing, whether the backmarker yeilded or not. A few bunps and close calls and voila! He had a very educated bunch of rearview mirror watches who, when they saw his yellow/green helmet in their mirrors, magically parted like the Red Sea before Moses.
This allowed him to build unasailable leads in traffic and in particular he was far superior to Prost who other drivers knew was a more tempered passer and they could afford to balk for a while without too much risk. By the end of the race he would be in an unasailable position and Prost would be forced to turn fastest laps when traffic thinned out, to make up for traffic holdups.
Unfortunatly this technique didn't serve Senna so well with determined frontrunners like Prost and of course we all recall the unfortunate consequences of his behaviour.
But anyone who feels like acuseing present day drivers of overly aggressive passing tactics should recall Senna, the most aggressive passer of all and consider how F1 could use some of his fire to heat up the processions that pass for F1 races these days.
Who was the most aggressive passer in F1? Senna!
Started by
variocam
, Apr 26 2000 07:22
18 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
The RedBaron
-
- 6,593 posts
- Joined: April 99
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 09:05
I would say Schuey was almost as intimdating
in the early part of his career. I think in the last 2-3 years he has toned down that
aggressivness and replaced it by using his head more. You can't win WDC's by risk punting yourself off....I think he has realised that now.
in the early part of his career. I think in the last 2-3 years he has toned down that
aggressivness and replaced it by using his head more. You can't win WDC's by risk punting yourself off....I think he has realised that now.
#3
5150
-
- 1,008 posts
- Joined: July 99
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 09:13
No Red, I disagree, while Shumi is a quite a brave passer, noone will ever come close to Senna, the difference doesn't really have anything to do with Talent or Desire to win, it's just that Senna would rather not finish a race to have somebody beat him, and worts to have a backmarker "disrespect him" by not leting him by inmediately......I know that state of mind well.
[This message has been edited by 5150 (edited 04-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by 5150 (edited 04-26-2000).]
#4
MN
-
- 978 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 09:15
How about Mansell, I thought he was quite aggressive passer and good doing it.
#5
HartleyHare
-
- 1,388 posts
- Joined: November 98
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 09:33
Senna and Mansell were superb, although Ayrton was a bit too aggressive sometimes. We've seen loads of drivers who make aggressive attempts at passing, but Ayrton and Nige were the best at making passes stick.
I suspect Jacques is the most aggressive of the current bunch but is hampered somewhat by his BAR. And the Williams boys don't muck about. But of the top contenders, I'd venture that Mika has looked best over the last few seasons.
From what I have read, Moss and Clarke just drove past people without much trouble at all. Didn't really need too much aggression!
I suspect Jacques is the most aggressive of the current bunch but is hampered somewhat by his BAR. And the Williams boys don't muck about. But of the top contenders, I'd venture that Mika has looked best over the last few seasons.
From what I have read, Moss and Clarke just drove past people without much trouble at all. Didn't really need too much aggression!
#6
tak
-
- 354 posts
- Joined: November 98
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 10:23
Definitely agree that Senna was the most agressive passer--the king of "Pass or Crash" Also realize he was doing it in a day when it was easier to overtake--no traction aids, no semi-auto gearboxes, fiddle brakes, or other mumbo jumbo. He was simply more skilled at controlling a car on the edge AND more willing to take the risks...
#7
pa
-
- 4,233 posts
- Joined: January 00
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 11:31
I remember that Gilles Villeneuve pulled some pretty spectacularly aggressive passing moves in his career. I just wish they'd drop the shitty grooved tires and let the boys get back to racing again so we'd see more than a couple of passes a race. Maybe that way maybe we'd stop hearing MS whine about how he couldn't get past JV at Silverstone. His brother certainly had no trouble in a Williams with a lot less power...
[This message has been edited by pa (edited 04-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by pa (edited 04-26-2000).]
#8
Yelnats
-
- 2,026 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 13:52
Gilles was pretty aggressive but was always very respectfull of his competition except when provoked. His car was rarely of the quality that Senna enjoyed through most of his carreer so he had less oppourtunity to demonstrate his passing prowess than Senna.
#9
Daemon
-
- 5,452 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 14:06
These days I think the most agressive passer is Coulthard. When he's right behind someone, hes constantly darting back and forth trying to force a mistake or find a gap. He's not the best, but definately got my vote for most agressive...
#10
Witt
-
- 3,308 posts
- Joined: November 98
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 15:16
Daemon, you have got to be bloody joking, right? Coulthard as the most aggressive? HAHAHA!
This guy i rate as the second worst out there (ahead of fissi). All that weaving is just because he doesn't have the balls to outbreak someone. He thinks he's gonna force a mistake out of them, but even the drivers in front know that he isn't going to pass them, thus that's probably where he loses out in the respect game. Look at all the passing attempts he has tried to make over the last few years, and most end up with him pulling out of the move at the last minute or punting someone off (or banging wheels).
It's always a disapointment to see that guy chasing someone so close (he is kinda good at that) because you just know he ain't going to pass them on the track. Like in Austria last year, after punting Mika off the road, he chased Irvine to the point where he should have been able to pass (look at how easy Mika was outbreaking people in that same race), but he failed to do so. That's just one example, i could reel off many, many more.
When he mentioned Mansell during the press conference i promptly shouted at the TV that he is not a tenth the man Mansell is when it comes to passing people on the track. Mentioning Coulthard and Mansell in the same breath is a sin!
I rate Mansell as the best passer ever in F1. He had superb calculated aggression and new exactly when, and how to pass the guy in front, even if it meant the hard way. He usually took the first oportunity to pass a driver rather than wait, because in some circumstances it was probably going to be his only chance, like in Hungary 89, where he caught out Prost and Senna whilst lapping backmarkers.
Senna was respected and feared by all when he came up behind them. Like Schumacher, he gained the respect by crashing into people if they didn't move for him. This approach is stupid when they do actually crash into someone, but look how most drivers just let him past easily after all his crashes with other drivers.
Today i rate M Schumacher as the best passer out there. You just know he's going to get past when he starts weaving around behind. The guy in front is usually ******* his pants just having him in his mirrors. Schuey only got that kind of fear and respect from his "crash or pass" reputation. A carbon copy of Senna.
Mika Hakkinen is a good passer, and when most see him in their mirrors they panic, but not so much as when Schuey or Senna were there, simply because Hakkinen does not have the reputation as a "crash or pass" driver.
This guy i rate as the second worst out there (ahead of fissi). All that weaving is just because he doesn't have the balls to outbreak someone. He thinks he's gonna force a mistake out of them, but even the drivers in front know that he isn't going to pass them, thus that's probably where he loses out in the respect game. Look at all the passing attempts he has tried to make over the last few years, and most end up with him pulling out of the move at the last minute or punting someone off (or banging wheels).
It's always a disapointment to see that guy chasing someone so close (he is kinda good at that) because you just know he ain't going to pass them on the track. Like in Austria last year, after punting Mika off the road, he chased Irvine to the point where he should have been able to pass (look at how easy Mika was outbreaking people in that same race), but he failed to do so. That's just one example, i could reel off many, many more.
When he mentioned Mansell during the press conference i promptly shouted at the TV that he is not a tenth the man Mansell is when it comes to passing people on the track. Mentioning Coulthard and Mansell in the same breath is a sin!
I rate Mansell as the best passer ever in F1. He had superb calculated aggression and new exactly when, and how to pass the guy in front, even if it meant the hard way. He usually took the first oportunity to pass a driver rather than wait, because in some circumstances it was probably going to be his only chance, like in Hungary 89, where he caught out Prost and Senna whilst lapping backmarkers.
Senna was respected and feared by all when he came up behind them. Like Schumacher, he gained the respect by crashing into people if they didn't move for him. This approach is stupid when they do actually crash into someone, but look how most drivers just let him past easily after all his crashes with other drivers.
Today i rate M Schumacher as the best passer out there. You just know he's going to get past when he starts weaving around behind. The guy in front is usually ******* his pants just having him in his mirrors. Schuey only got that kind of fear and respect from his "crash or pass" reputation. A carbon copy of Senna.
Mika Hakkinen is a good passer, and when most see him in their mirrors they panic, but not so much as when Schuey or Senna were there, simply because Hakkinen does not have the reputation as a "crash or pass" driver.
#11
Daemon
-
- 5,452 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 15:31
Witt - I didn't say he was the best or anything, just that i think him one of the most aggressive. One thing that DC seems to do differently to other drivers, is jinking left and right, consistently looking for a gap or trying to unsettle his opponent. Remember his move on MS at Sepang last year. That was a dangerous move, but a ballsy one, and DC made it stick. You could just tell by the way he was all over the back of MS, he wasn't staying put.
Now like I said, not the best or most consistent passer, but I think one of the most agressive.
Now like I said, not the best or most consistent passer, but I think one of the most agressive.
#12
variocam
-
- 251 posts
- Joined: November 99
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 07:22
Senna and Mansell. You will never see a batle like the tow of them had at...hmmm...I forget where it was, but they were wheel to wheel for an entire lap passing eachother in every corner. The best lap in F1 history. Get rid of those barge boards and bring back the sparks 
#13
dingledell
-
- 57 posts
- Joined: April 00
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 07:33
Mansell's move on Berger in Mexico driving the Ferrari was one of the best - if not the best - manouvres I have ever seen.
I can't remeber the details, but I think it was 1990 on the bend leading onto the start - finish straight (something like the peraltada). He just drove around the outside.
I remember Murrary saying that there was no way he could overtake coming into that bend, but he did, and Murray went inter-galactic.
Awesome.
Then there was Barcelona, wheel to wheel with Senna (mutual respect), Monaco '92 - OK, so he didn't pass Senna, but lapped within inches of him for 10 minutes.
Top entertainment value.
I can't remeber the details, but I think it was 1990 on the bend leading onto the start - finish straight (something like the peraltada). He just drove around the outside.
I remember Murrary saying that there was no way he could overtake coming into that bend, but he did, and Murray went inter-galactic.
Awesome.
Then there was Barcelona, wheel to wheel with Senna (mutual respect), Monaco '92 - OK, so he didn't pass Senna, but lapped within inches of him for 10 minutes.
Top entertainment value.
#14
magnum
-
- 1,061 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 26 April 2000 - 20:32
Yes Mansell was tough and determined. I think it was called the paralta.
And Jacques move round the outside of schumacher at Estoril was the best move of the last 6 years (sad, hey?) - in fact, it is one of the ONLY moves I have seen worth even remembering.
Folks are always saying that passing is tough in F1 - for me, it was the same then too. That's why these guys did the most outlandish and foolish things to get by. Now they wait for the pitstop.
And Jacques move round the outside of schumacher at Estoril was the best move of the last 6 years (sad, hey?) - in fact, it is one of the ONLY moves I have seen worth even remembering.
Folks are always saying that passing is tough in F1 - for me, it was the same then too. That's why these guys did the most outlandish and foolish things to get by. Now they wait for the pitstop.
#15
Yelnats
-
- 2,026 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 28 April 2000 - 08:08
I recall Prost valiantly chasing Senna through traffic before the era of blue flag rules. I calculated that Senna was gaining over a second for each backmarker he passed!
No wonder Prost held the record for fastest laps as that was the only opportunity he had to make up time. Meanwhile Senna could cruise around, confident that traffic would supply him with more opportunities for picking up time.
As I mentioned earlier, Senna definitly had the field trained to move over for him. They knew he was coming through on the first corner. There was no dodging and feints for Senna. It was slam, bang and past he went.
No wonder Prost held the record for fastest laps as that was the only opportunity he had to make up time. Meanwhile Senna could cruise around, confident that traffic would supply him with more opportunities for picking up time.
As I mentioned earlier, Senna definitly had the field trained to move over for him. They knew he was coming through on the first corner. There was no dodging and feints for Senna. It was slam, bang and past he went.
#16
Rogue
-
- 1,323 posts
- Joined: December 98
Member
Posted 28 April 2000 - 08:41
Senna was the best overtaker I have seen, but the most agressive was definitely Mansell - I never had the pleasure of seeing Gilles, but I'm sure he would have been pretty ferocious too.
With relation to comparisons above to drivers in todays cars compared to drivers of even Senna & Mansells era, I do not think that these comparisons can possibly be considered valid due to the differences between the cars where overtaking (and strategy) are concerned. This would be like trying to rate todays drivers on their ability to drive a race while conserving fuel, relative to those of the "fuel economy" era - completely different strategy and rules, not a valid comparison.
Regards,
------------------
Rogue
f-1@ihug.com.au
With relation to comparisons above to drivers in todays cars compared to drivers of even Senna & Mansells era, I do not think that these comparisons can possibly be considered valid due to the differences between the cars where overtaking (and strategy) are concerned. This would be like trying to rate todays drivers on their ability to drive a race while conserving fuel, relative to those of the "fuel economy" era - completely different strategy and rules, not a valid comparison.
Regards,
------------------
Rogue
f-1@ihug.com.au
#17
westendorf
-
- 815 posts
- Joined: March 99
Member
Posted 28 April 2000 - 08:42
Senna for sure in the modern era. The pass of MS by JV at Estoril was great because it was high speed and on the outside. I believe that after the race MS said that over here we don't pass on the outside. I think Jac just thought it was Michigan at probably 70 mph slower. Great pass by Nige on Gerhard at Mexico as well!!
ciao GFW
ciao GFW
#18
vroom-vroom
-
- 1,847 posts
- Joined: January 00
Member
Posted 28 April 2000 - 08:43
Absolutely true, Stanley. Senna trained them well in his first F1 years. Jean-Louis Schlesser, however, missed school until his first F1 race. I thought that one incident was the stupidiest mistake Senna ever made.
#19
Fast One
-
- 600 posts
- Joined: October 99
Member
Posted 28 April 2000 - 10:06
Guys I'll tell you that Senna was great, Mansell was brave, Hakkinen is outstanding, etc. But the absolute bravest passer I ever saw was Jack Brabham, who, if left a one inch opening, would somehow manage to shove a car through it. I know most of you never saw him race, but take it from someone who saw him plenty: when Black Jack wanted by, he was willing to do things that would have terrified even a driver like Jim Clark. He was fantastic to watch!
