64 replies to this topic

[Louis Mr. F1]

In the past 10 years, we had different teams fighting for the top position, Benetton (well long time ago now) Williams, McLaren and Ferrari. But it seems whenever it's Ferrari/McLaren, there would be a lot of controversy and intensed arguements on and off the track. While when it involved the other teams, the arguement between those teams would be less intensive. You agree?

Do you know why? when did it really start? I guess it started back in 1989, when Mansell and Senna crashed at the Portugal GP, the two teams' principals finished it with a pit lane argument and it continued into the 1990 season because Ferrari had lured away McLaren's diamond, Alain Prost, which irrated Ron Dennis badly. Certainly the accident in Suzuka 90 didn't help the matter, as Ferrari has lost a realistic chance of WC.

the situation quiet down for some years, when first Ferrari was off the top, and then it was McLaren's turn to languish in the wilderness. But as soon as they were both battling for the WC in 1998, the accusation started to fly again. Ron Dennis would say/protest anything to undermine Ferrari while Ferrari would push the rules to give them the best advantage. while I understand other teams have done the same thing, but it seems Ferrari/McLaren are always fighting it in a "negative" way.

Ron don't have problem with williams, and it seems Ferrari is perfectly okay with the fight with Williams, despite the clashes with Montoya this year. You don't see Frank and Jean Todt throwing punches to each other.

[palmas]

It started when Ron Dennis was born. He received a red car to play with. He loved it very much, but one day he found out that the red cars come from Italy. He was devastated, as he thougt all good cars came from England... And still today he gives his live to prove he was right!

[Thunder]

they will wait another 21 years before they repeat what they did in 2000.

wRONg, snob.

[Don Capps]

It easily goes back to the 1974 thru 1976 seasons when the two teams butted heads on a number of issues which include a number of rows over the technical regs, there being an especially nasty brew-up at the Spanish GP in 1976 which had Hunt initially disqualified and then reinstated as the winner and then there was the fuel issue at Monza later that year...

Plus, they were on opposite sides during the FIASCO War.

[dai_ferrari]

I think Don Capps said pretty much what I was going to say, but I'lladd one more thing to the equation, and not to try and stir up controversy, but I think to some degree it's also a English versus Italian thing.

British motorsport/press have always tried to say that you can't win in F1 unless you're based in England, or have english management, or english this, or that. A bit snobbish, but that's how they are to some degree anyways.

I also think Enzo had a bit to do with this as he often fought for changes that suited himself and his team more often than not, by throwing his weight around and threatening to withdraw at times.

I think then with Ron Dennis, it's an envy thing with him, as I seem to think he sees himself as the new Enzo and when he doesn't get his way, he shoots out at Ferrari which inevitably get the most exposure and press which he feels that his team deserves.

I think Ron Dennis has done a great job at McLaren, but I'd admore him even more if he didn't whine so often or point fingers with abandon. It is why I admire Frank Williams.

[Hawaiian Chicken]

Originally posted by palmas
It started when Ron Dennis was born. He received a red car to play with. He loved it very much, but one day he found out that the red cars come from Italy. He was devastated, as he thougt all good cars came from England... And still today he gives his live to prove he was right!

No, actually Ron Dennis loved and was obsessed with Ferrari road cars until the day he was banged very hard by a Ferrari while he was crossing the road looking that the sexy chicks. This idiot Ron Dennis got the biggest embarassing moment of his life to be banged by a cool Ferrari infront of some nice sexy lusty chicks!!!!!! Ron got nowhere to hide his humiliated face, he tried to reach his face into his arse but can't do it and the girls laughed at him!!

From then on, Ron's obsession for Ferrari turned into extreme hatred for the red car.

[BRG]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
it's also a English versus Italian thing.

British motorsport/press have always tried to say that you can't win in F1 unless you're based in England, or have english management, or english this, or that. A bit snobbish, but that's how they are to some degree

I am sorry, but this is really a load of nonsense. There is no anti-Italian feeling in Britain whatsoever. If you were to talk about anti-German prejudice, then regretfully, I would have to agree that it does tend to exist in Britain. Anti-french? Well, of course, we have had a love-hate relationship with France for centuries. But Italy? No, definitely not. And frankly I get a bit tired by the casual way that people accuse Britain and the British of such nationalistic practices. If you levelled such an accusation at other countries, you would (quite rightly) be bashed for zenophobia. But Britain is always fair game.

Go to the British GP and you will see the same sea of red that you see at every other GP. The British media (especially TV automobile pundits) remain convinced that Ferrari cars are the epitome of style, character and charisma. Whenever one of our TV reporters, Jeremy Clarkson, talks about cars, it always turns into an extended Ferrari advert. I do not remember ever reading any or hearing any serious anti-Ferrari stuff in the British media. Even at the height of the Hill/Schumacher rivalry, any bile was reserved for Schumacher himself, rather than directed at the team. But maybe the two have become synonomous these days?

In F1, Ferrari have always been the team to beat. It is inevitable that any challengers will clash with them at some point, I think Don Capps have correctly identified that the rivalry with McLAren goes back long before Ron Dennis's time. I recall that I was part of the crowd at Brands Hatch that threatened rebellion over the exclusion of James Hunt's McLaren after he was the entirely innocent victim of a first corner clash with Reutteman's Ferrari. And I am sure that Lotus and Colin Chapman had a few run-ins with Ferrari (both Enzo F. and the F. team) during earlier times, maybe epitomised by Enzo's contemptuous "garagistes" comment. As Don recalls, Ferrari were on the losing side in the FISA/FOCA power struggle, and going back even further there was the 1961 row over the new 1.5 lite formula when Ferrari came out on the winning side against the other (predominantly British) constructors.

[Don Capps]

In a sense there really is (and has been) an Anglo-Italian "thing" going on for some decades, if you will. However, that is probably another topic for another day.

[dai_ferrari]

BRG,

I never said in my post that the British Motorsport/Press was anti-Italian! Look again, please.

What I did say, and in case I didn't write it correctly, is that with Ron Dennis I think it's an English vs Italian thing. I think he is very much pro-british. But the post was about Ron Dennis, not the entire English people, or country. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but it's my opinion on Ron Dennis, and only Ron Dennis.

The other point I made, and it is true, is that the British media/F1 manufacturers often say you can't win in F1 unless you are England based, or run by English people. I'ts been said over and over again. No slam against England there, just what I've read and heard.

I hope this post makes it clear that I am not anti-english. I realize that there are thousands and thousands of English people that love Italy and Ferrari's. But I was talking about the F1 community only.

[Don Capps]

To some, F1 is just another example of Perfideous Albion at work, in this case using racing as a means to prop up its (sagging) prestige while at the same time undermining similar efforts elsewhere. After all, some say, look at the number of racing teams & constructors & support industries that Albion supports with those elsewhere -- particularly with 50, 40, or 30 years ago. Some wonder as to to exactly how this all came about. At least that is what some seem to think and even say....;)


However, for my part, I will say that the British racing press is pretty narrow in its world view and is borderline xenophobic when looked at from a perspective covering the post-WW2 period. By comparison, Americans come out as quite more cosmopolitan than you would imagine.

[BRG]

dai_ferrari

sorry, a bit of an over-reaction there. It sort of pressed one of my (jenson) buttons. Re-reading our post, I see what you mean.

Mind you, with the exception of Ferrari, there haven't been many really successful F1 outfits based outside Britain since the start of the kit-car era (I can only think of Renault and Ligier but with Sauber and Toyota maybe now threatening to join them). So maybe it is not such a "snobbish" thing for the British media to say. Especially with examples like Prost to prove their point...

But I think it is wrong to impute Ron Dennis with nationalistic views. If anything, he tends to view his team as an international one, not a British one, and has said as much in the past. His "problem" with Ferrari is not about Britain versus Italy, it is simply that he regards being beaten by anyone as unacceptable failure. Second is the first of the losers for Ron and in recent years it is Ferrari that have been the team that has stopped him winning. If his dislike of losing is more muted towards Williams, that is solely because of a very long-standing personal friendship with Frank. Yes, even Ron has warm feelings for his friends!

[HSJ]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari
I think then with Ron Dennis, it's an envy thing with him,

Hmm, isn't it interesting how you assume this? I mean, why not assume Ferrari being jealous of RD? He has won with McLaren more than Ferrari has in the same time frame, ditto FW and PH.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Thunder
they will wait another 21 years before they repeat what they did in 2000.

wRONg, snob.

Seems to me they only had to wait one year. :

[Oscar Jack]

Originally posted by BRG
[...]
But I think it is wrong to impute Ron Dennis with nationalistic views. If anything, he tends to view his team as an international one, not a British one, and has said as much in the past. His "problem" with Ferrari is not about Britain versus Italy, it is simply that he regards being beaten by anyone as unacceptable failure. Second is the first of the losers for Ron and in recent years it is Ferrari that have been the team that has stopped him winning. If his dislike of losing is more muted towards Williams, that is solely because of a very long-standing personal friendship with Frank. Yes, even Ron has warm feelings for his friends!

Hmmm - I think your comments are probably very true. However, I also suggest that there may be another reason for the McLaren/Ferrari antipathy (apart from the fact that for the past 5 years it seems they have really been keeping each other in check for the titles), namely the infamous technical arguments.

McLaren develop something, get it OK'd by the FIA, then it gets challenged by - guess who - at the track and declared illegal by the stewards. Ferrari do some creative measuring/electronics and it gets challenged by - guess who - at the track. And so it goes on. As part of the competition/rivalry between the 2 teams, an ongoing technical rivalry has caused both of them to expend vast sums of money to no avail and to lose points due to challenges (overt or covert) on legalities.

Both of them are very big, important teams and in the end their rivalry comes down an intense desire to win and their public expressions of this.

They also make the spectacle we all enjoy. Let's face it - if everyong else was as anodyne as Sir Frank can be (at times), it wouldn't be half as much fun...

[AgRacer]

There is no anti-Italian feeling in Britain whatsoever. If you were to talk about anti-German prejudice, then regretfully, I would have to agree that it does tend to exist in Britain. Anti-french? Well, of course, we have had a love-hate relationship with France for centuries. But Italy? No, definitely not. And frankly I get a bit tired by the casual way that people accuse Britain and the British of such nationalistic practices.

It is for these nationalistic practices that led me to stop buying Autocourse. They were so "pro-Britian" that it was sickening. While I would think they would for sure try to put some kind of positive light on there own countrymen being a British pub. , they were so obsessed with it that I got disgusted and quit buying there annual.

[dai_ferrari]

HSJ,

Obviously, since I don't know Ron Dennis personally, and I figure neither do you, of course I can only assume, as so can you.

I mean, why not assume Ferrari being jealous of RD? He has won with McLaren more than Ferrari has in the same time frame, ditto FW and PH.

Maybe precisely because he has won more than Ferrari in the same time period and still doesn't get the media hype, the fan interest, and the fame that Ferrari do. That's why I think he is in a way, envious. Not that it's wrong of him to feel so. I'd be envious too, if I had the record Ron Dennis has with McLaren, and not get quite the attention Ferrari do, but that's life.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
Ron don't have problem with williams, and it seems Ferrari is perfectly okay with the fight with Williams, despite the clashes with Montoya this year. You don't see Frank and Jean Todt throwing punches to each other.

Of course not they are both British teams, so Ron gets along well with Frank. Do you really think Ron likes anything Italian?

[Group B]

It is for these nationalistic practices that led me to stop buying Autocourse. They were so "pro-Britian" that it was sickening. While I would think they would for sure try to put some kind of positive light on there own countrymen being a British pub. , they were so obsessed with it that I got disgusted and quit buying there annual.

Have to agree I'm afraid, England is appallingly jingostic. The sad thing is that we're so obsessed with our own propaganda that we can't see what a bag of shite we are;

"So what if we have the worst health service in europe - we won Waterloo..."

"Shut up about crime, you can borrow my car. Now then, during the war....."

Put a German in an Italian car with a French boss and the rule Brittania mob don't know whether to sh*t or get off the pot, and if they actually start beating the Brits..."bloody cheating Johny foreigner"

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by HSJ


Hmm, isn't it interesting how you assume this? I mean, why not assume Ferrari being jealous of RD? He has won with McLaren more than Ferrari has in the same time frame, ditto FW and PH.

That's a logical assumption, Ferrari is jealous of RD/McLaren. That's why RD has constant critisism directed at Ferrari, why RD says he likes to see Schumi lose and why RD is implying that Ferrari are cheating.

[JForce]

Another thing about RD and his Ferrari views was discussed here in NZ a few years ago. A prominant NZ motorsport personality siad that in his view RD tried so hard to make everyone think that McLaren was a british team because he was british. He is envious because when people think of Ferrari they think of Enzo, and that when people think of Italy they think of Ferrari. RD wanted it so that when people thought of Britain they thought sof McLaren, and when they thought of McLaren they thought of him.

Of course they think of Bruce McLaren, a great son of New Zealand (ahem).

So that may have something to do with it. Never forget that RD didn't start McLaren...he bought it.

Not a RD bash post anyway, regardless of what I think of him, he has done a great job to turn McLaren into a top team!

[Darren]

Originally posted by Don Capps
In a sense there really is (and has been) an Anglo-Italian "thing" going on for some decades, if you will. However, that is probably another topic for another day.

Well, to make it today's topic and to rather neatly loop it back into the topic at hand, it's frequently forgotten that McLaren used Alfa Romeo engines at one stage and that Andrea de Adamich drove for them. There's no evidence at all that Teddy Mayer or Bruce McLaren were anti-Italian.

The irony is that it would not have simply been Ferrari causing angst in the Project 4 era of McLaren. The shared sponsorship of Marlboro with Alfa Romeo (a FISA team) was ceratinly a source for rivalry.

[luisfelipetrigo]

Originally posted by Don Capps
It easily goes back to the 1974 thru 1976 seasons when the two teams butted heads ...

Was this the times of Teddy Meyer or was Ron Dennis already in charge?
I ask because I would blame a lot of the situation to Ron's personality - not saying he is right or not, just saying he is that way.

[clipper]

Mrv said: Of course not they are both British teams, so Ron gets along well with Frank. Do you really think Ron likes anything Italian?

well with the new paragon project, i read somewhere that the tiles they use (floor tiles or wall tiles)are manufactured in italy, a place close to maranello????????
anyone confirm this???

[Ricardo F1]

More than likely - Ron has a thing for quality. The problem is, no doubt, as someone once said about the Italian steel that the English railways were made of :

"they look good, but last about as long as Italian clothing"

Which might be said of Ron's engines . . .

[HouseOfDesai]

They are the 2 most successfully teams in F1, of course they are going to bump heads, I mean hell even the colors now, you basically have the hero’s of F1 wearing red, Mac with its Black Darth Vader like look trying to dethrone Ferrari, its almost poetic.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by clipper
Mrv said: Of course not they are both British teams, so Ron gets along well with Frank. Do you really think Ron likes anything Italian?

well with the new paragon project, i read somewhere that the tiles they use (floor tiles or wall tiles)are manufactured in italy, a place close to maranello????????
anyone confirm this???

I heard the same think last year. Ferrari have thousands of tiles left over with the prancing horse logo. Wonder if Ron is interested?

[Tom R]

Originally posted by Scudetto
Seems to me they only had to wait one year. :

After axis Schu-Brawn-Byrne has left the building, they have to wait at least 10 years to win championships again.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by Tom R


After axis Schu-Brawn-Byrne has left the building, they have to wait at least 10 years to win championships again.

You forgot the most important man at Ferrari, and that is Montezemelo. As long as he is there, he will do his outmost to bring in the right people to take over for these guys once they pack it in. Ferrari have the $$$$ and resources to bounce back. It won't take 10 years but I can see them struggling for 2 or 3 years. Most of you also fail to realize that the same thing can happen to any of the top teams. Personal change can happen to anyone. Teams lose key people in important areas every year.

[Tom R]

Originally posted by Mrv
Most of you also fail to realize that the same thing can happen to any of the top teams.

Yep, it can happen to anyone. It has happened so many times before, that's the way it just is.

I think there will be williams-ferrari dominance for next 3-4 years and then it will be McLaren and maybe Renault or Toyota to take couple of titles. So I think that Ferrari will not dominate again before 2010....but it could take much longer though.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Mrv
Ferrari have thousands of tiles left over with the prancing horse logo. Wonder if Ron is interested?

I am sure that he would be delighted to walk all over on the prancing horse every day. He'd probably use them for the toilet floors...;)

[DoS]

I think this whole Mclaren vs Ferrari thing has expanded even more during the last years.....cause the FIA have been....ahem "friendlier" to ferrari than mclaren. I mean as far as tech regulations are concerned, FIA tried noumerous times to "take" away an advantage from mclaren and thats not the case with the reds....can you say "Beryllium" ban, "steering pedal" ban, "special differential" ban...and more. i am definetely not the most suitable person to say they were right or wrong....but it seems a bit wierd the least to an external observer. Also, the stewards have a tendancy to favour "the man" (i.e MS) in every "racing incident" and so on...
Now Mcalren are not exactly the best guys in the world either, but i think Dennis's ( and other championship rivals) fouls against Ferrari are justifiable ;)

cyas

[Tom R]

Originally posted by DoS
I think this whole Mclaren vs Ferrari thing has expanded even more during the last years.....cause the FIA have been....ahem "friendlier" to ferrari than mclaren.

FIA has never been "friendlier" to Ferrari! McLaren is bad team and all their innovations were just illegal. And ferrari in Sepang 99 was legal, even if judges said it wasn't and ferrari also admitted it after the race....

Just kidding.;) DoS

[Louis Mr. F1]

DoS

basically agreed with your "favouitism" anaysis. Ron feels that he is not just fighting against Ferrari, but the entire FIA, and their stewards. And Ron is not a person who hides his feelings or opinions, so everytime he doesn't agree with something, he'd say it out loud.

One more thing, someone mentioned about their team colors. Is it possible that Ron is still bitter that Ferrari took away his beloved Marlboro money since 97? and Ron wants to prove to Marlboro that they have backed the wrong team. He succeeded in 98, 99, but .......

[metz]

I was wondering when someone would get around to the FIA.
Ron must feel that Ferrari gets pref treatment on several rulings. The latest one was the disallowed new Michelins. There have been many more such cases over the years.
When Bernie makes a statement like "Michael Schumacher is the best thing that ever happened to F1" it upsets him. Bernie was only talking in a commercial sense and increased TV audience numbers. Still, F1 without Ferrari is hard to imagine while F1 without McLaren just might survive.
The bottom line is that Ron will not play second fiddle to anyone. He will be as hard nosed off-track as he expects his drivers to be on-track.

[lukywill]

Originally posted by luisfelipetrigo

Was this the times of Teddy Meyer or was Ron Dennis already in charge?
I ask because I would blame a lot of the situation to Ron's personality - not saying he is right or not, just saying he is that way.

Teddy Meyer

76 lauda-hunt duel

[magic]

it was started by old enzo looking down on the garagisti.

[Mrv]

Originally posted by BRG
I am sure that he would be delighted to walk all over on the prancing horse every day. He'd probably use them for the toilet floors...;)

Since he is not on the invited list for a Maranello tour, why not bring Ferrari to Ron?

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by magic
it was started by old enzo looking down on the garagisti.

Wow!!!

I have to give credit to magic for perhaps being bang on target with this observation. It has been danced around and hinted at, but perhaps there is much truth in what magic says. The relationship has gone from the normal sort of rivalry that one expects between hard-working, goal-focused teams -- as it was perhaps during the 1974 to 1977 period (they were tough to each at the track, but it was not personal), to where -- at least at a distance -- it almost seems like a very personal issue to Dennis.

Perhaps the attacks by Ferrari during the FIASCO War and its postbellum period -- which were very scathing and verypersonal in nature when directed at Mosley, Ecclestone, and Dennis -- really did touch a raw nerve woth Dennis. Upon reflection, this is perhaps more of a factor than we might usually accept, but then sometimes it is the burr under the saddle that you don't necessarily see that is the cause for things that seem a bit far-fetched.

Of course, Enzo Ferrari sneering at the FOCA (i.e., British) teams as 'garagisti' in the most negative sense of the word was a hoot to begin with and truly demonstrates the power of selective memory. After all, what really was Ferrari? A 'garagisti' like his fellows at Maserati, Abarth, and so on and on. He simply had better machine shop than the British teams was about it. Ferrari Automobili and Scuderia Ferrari (and SEFAC Spa Ferrari after late-1960) scarcely formed anything that could remotely be used to denote Ferrari as a 'grande' -- unless he was leaning on his ties to Fiat which only churns up another issue -- manufacturer. Ferrari may be many things, but it is scarcely a 'grande' manufacturer.

So, perhaps it is -- as magic suggests -- a spinoff from the not very nice things that Enzo Ferrari said and which Dennis has never forgotten.

As someone also mentioned, being dumped by Phillip Morris/ Marlboro for Ferrari could not have helped.....

[magic]

that's why i included ford-cosworth/keith duckworth.
the '67 ford dfv revolutionised f1 because it gave the lotuses, tyrrells, macs, brabhams etc a stick to beat the grand entrepreneur. those days dennis was a (chief)mechanic at mac(?).
it would take ferrari 7 years to get even again.

[tifoso]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, Louis.

Don, I too, think magic is right about the garagistias. I just finished reading The Piranha Club and it certainly makes a case for this period of F1 history being a source of bad blood between Dennis and Ferrari. What I can't remember is when did Enzo Ferrari first make this comment. Was it before, during, or after the FIASCO War?

magic, I assume on your last post, you're referring to the thread about the 5 most significant names in F1 thread, which I've found to be another interesting read. I'd agree with your inclusion of Cosworth/Keith Duckworth, too. Very influencial in an interesting time of F1 as the Cosworth engine provided the small teams the opportunity to be competitive.

[magic]

was it not when cooper put an engine in the back of his car and beat ferrari?

[tifoso]

Originally posted by magic
was it not when cooper put an engine in the back of his car and beat ferrari?

If so, wouldn't that make it in the 1959-1961 period...so before the FIASCO War, right?

[magic]

btw
dennis, first mechanic rindt's cooper-maserati, then joined rindt at brabham as chief-mechanic, in '71 set up rondel racing.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by magic
btw
dennis, first mechanic rindt's cooper-maserati, then joined rindt at brabham as chief-mechanic, in '71 set up rondel racing.

So Ron's history with Cooper could also be a factor in the bad blood between he and Ferrari.

[luisfelipetrigo]

Originally posted by tifoso This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, Louis.

For a change ...

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by palmas
It started when Ron Dennis was born. He received a red car to play with. He loved it very much, but one day he found out that the red cars come from Italy. He was devastated, as he thougt all good cars came from England... And still today he gives his live to prove he was right!

[mclarensmps]

Of course not they are both British teams, so Ron gets along well with Frank. Do you really think Ron likes anything Italian?

The tiling at the Paragon are of an Expensive Italian company ! Italian ! ITALIAN!

[Raelene]

>It is for these nationalistic practices that led me to stop buying Autocourse. They were so "pro-Britian" that it was sickening.

same reason we stop subscribing to Autosport....

[BRG]

Originally posted by Raelene
>It is for these nationalistic practices that led me to stop buying Autocourse. They were so "pro-Britian" that it was sickening.

same reason we stop subscribing to Autosport....

Just out of interest, can Raelene and Agracer tell us whose objective and non-nationalistic publications they now prefer? I have seen US, French, Italian Brazilian and Spanish newspapers and motorsport publications and amazingly they all concentrated on drivers and teams from their own countries, just like the British ones do.

[Frans]

I cannot see why we cannot put the blame on that one single dude........