73 replies to this topic

[Cinquecento]

www.turunsanomat.fi

Erja tells Mika sold the 360 3 days prior to
Imola GP. She says he didn't like the "F1
gear selector". The buyer, she says, is a
wealthy gentleman from Monaco.

I've always held Ferrari in high regard for
that they don't up their prices due to the
incredible demand of their products.
However, I've loathed the **** who buy a
Ferrari and sell it forward at an
unreasonable price. Mika, Mika shame on you,
the black market cat.

[Franco]

Quite interesting, I never thought you could buy a new car from Ferrari and then immediately sell it used for an ever higher price. I should get into that business it sounds good!

[This message has been edited by Franco (edited 04-25-2000).]

[mono-posto]

The wait for a new 360 Modena can be as high as a year. I've already seen many up for sale on the market from buyers who have taken delivery and immidiately resell at up to 50% greater than thier costs.

The sad thing is that people are buying because they don't want to wait a year. I saw one sell foe 220,000 USD. That is close to the cost of a 550 Maranello. Why would someone pay 220 for a 360 when you could have a 550?

[130R]

I guess he discovered what we have been calling Italian Trash for years.

[magnum]

130R anytime you wanna give your Italian Trash Ferrari, give me a shout. I'll pay for shipping

[Toxicant]

From a marketing stand point it was stupid for Mika to buy a Ferrari. He might have plenty of money but that is the last thing Mercedes wants to see is Mika Driving their main rivals car.

When he retires he can drive and buy anything he wants, in the mean time he better do as he's told and smile everytime he steps into his S-class.

Tox!

[vroom-vroom]

I think both Jacky Ickx and Nigel Mansell sold their F400's for astronomical amounts after essentially receiving them from Ferrari.

[BRG]

Sounds like a sweet deal to me - it's just a car not a religous icon and if some mug wants to pay over the odds to get one, then sell! Good for Mika, clearly he has more sense than I had given him credit for...

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Franco]

Hey where do I sign up for a Modena??

[Ricardo F1]

http://cgi.ebay.com/...&item=311982443

Anyone spare $200k+???

[mono-posto]

The 550 Maranello in the background would be my choice. I just don't really like the frontal view on the Modena.


And the 550 has that SWEET V-12!!!

(There isn't a sighing-in-envy smiley face.)

[Peeko]

He was pressured into selling it by Ron 'The Wuss' Dennis. That's why Mika was bitter all weekend.

------------------
Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[Ricardo F1]

. . . I'm sure. . . .

[Franco]

Ebay!!

Hey did anyone hear of the kid that sold his 'soul' for 10 US$ on ebay??

hahahaha

Bloody genius!

[journeyman]

Yes, apparently he got the idea from an episode of the Simpsons where Bart sells his soul (actually the word "soul" scribbled on a piece of paper) to Milhouse for $5.

Trivia question: Anyone know which episode of the Simpsons mentioned "a Formula One racecar"?

[PeaQ]

I bet that MS has at least one Mercedes...

[RedFever]

BRG, it's not about common sense, but exploiting one's celebrity for profit, quite pathetic.

Ferrari has waiting lists for its cars, because of excess demand. In cases of models like the F40 someone mentioned, but also other models, they even check your background, they want to see whether you are really rich, therefore likely to keep the car, or just another of those speculators (for the most part not Italian, contrary to what 130R believes).

When someone like Mario Andretti or Sylvester Stallone or Mika Hakkinen (all three Ferrari's clients) call because they want to buy one of their cars, unless it is a very limited model like the F40, of course, celebrities get a jump-ahead in the waiting list and get a car very quickly. Ferrari of course wants to keep its image by having celebrities go around with their cars.

Someone like Mika basically exploited the waiting list game, passed ahead of many legitimate buyers because Ferrari felt pretty sure that "here is a celebrity that loves cars and is not into the speculating business" and voila', they served him pronto. Only to find out that Mika was no better than the rest and sold it for profit within months.

PS. Actually, not only people buy cars at a much higher price from the original buyer, but people even sell their waiting list place. A friend of mine in Rome (wealthy guy) had his dad in the waiting list for a 550 when it just came out. As the waiting list had grown to over a year, since he was only weeks away from receiving the car (but he had no intention of buying it at the venerable age of 68), he sold his spot for $30,000 to someone who wanted the car without waiting. He basically made 30 grans just for getting on the waiting list in time.!!!!!

[SHIKANE 5]

JOURNEYMAN, THAT WAS THE ONE WITH NED FLANDERS AS SATAN. HOMER SOLD HIS SOUL FOR A DOUGHNUT, BUT HIS SOUL WAS LEGALLY MARGE'S.

[smarty]

Can we trust the source? (about the over-pricing)

RedFever,

Do you know if it's easy to join the list?
'Cause it's quite profitable

[mono-posto]

The F40 was quite ridiculous. Values jumped from the 250,000 list to well over 1 million in just weeks. This 'F1 car for the road' drove the value of Ferrari's to astonomical levels, across the board. Part of the insanity was fueled by the fact that no-one knew how many Ferrari would produce so everyone scampered to get one. As it turns out, they produced over 1000 F-40's and the values have now dropped to 'realistic' levels (250 to 300K).

So Ferrari got wise with the F50. They stated up front that they would only produce 349 cars and ALL of them would be sold by the factory via a two year lease with an option to buy. This lease was controlled by the factory so black-market crooks couldn't buy one for 350,000 and turn around and sell it tomorrow for 1.5 mil.

Universally, the 'collector Ferrari craze' has disappeared and you can get some great cars for 'realatively' little. 348 GTB/GTS's for 40-50K, Testarossa at 65-75K and 355's for under 90K. 308's/328's are the best bang for the buck. Ranging from <20K to 60K for a 1990 328.

Compare these prices to what some will pay for luxury SUV's (a stupid trend IMO) and you know what I would choose!!

[RedFever]

smarty,

I don't know anything about the source. If it is not true, then I apologize with Mika. But if it true, than he is no better than the slime that keeps speculating on Maranello's car to the point they had to hire people with the sole role of figuring out what chances are there that a buyer is serious.

It's not easy to join the list. You need money, contact and personal wealth. If you are poor, they won't accept you. My friend's ass-father is rich, so he managed to play the game (he thought about seriously buying the car at first, then he realized a Mercedes was more comfortable at his age). But maybe it's not that impossible, I am basing my statements on what Andrea told me at the time, he could have exaggerated the selection process to impress me. I dunno, contact Ferrari when they come out with the next hottie!!!

[mono-posto]

They've announced the 360 Spyder and people are seriously queing up for that car.

Go to a Ferrari dealer as an F1 fan and your bound to make some new friends. But if you start talking about buying then you better be prepared to shown some serious credentials!!

[Toxicant]

"But if it true, than he is no better than the slime that keeps speculating on Maranello's car"

Sorry, I fail to see how speculating with a Ferrari or any car is wrong.

Supply and demand, thats the story and a short supply of Ferrari's create the demand.

The sad truth is, even if you own one there is no place on public roads to actually use it to it's so called potential so in effect they are like a painting or any art piece. People buy them just to show off. There are tons of Ferrari's 5,10,15,20 years old with nexted to no miles on them ready to be driven.

People don't drive Ferrari's for the most part, they are unconfortable, poorly designed and very costly to repair. Besides those strikes against them if you do drive it, it's value goes down the toilet. Who the hell would want a Ferrari with 100,000 miles on it?? no one! well no one that can afford one in the first place.

The hype in the late 80's drove the prices up on some models to crazy numbers, a Daytona spyder could fetch as much as 1 million dollars and now you can buy the car for 225,000. Tell me Ferrari didn't love this speculation in their cars.

They try and keep them exclusive to justfy the price, no other reason.

Tox!

[Whatever]

As for Mika Häkkinen driving Mercs, he was promoting the S-class, I think it was, and he was asked what he thought about the car by a journalist. He said it's an old man's car and not really his style. So he obviously doesn't think too highly of Mercedes cars. What the man needs is a McLaren F1.

I'd say it's possible that Mika's 360 could be worth something just because he was the original owner. Be kinda cool to own a Ferrari Michael Schumacher once owned, wouldn't it?

[mono-posto]

Tox,

Any Ferrari owner and enthusiast would strongly disagree with you. Those who say Ferrari's are uncomfortable or poorly engineered have never owned one or driven one.

There are certain reliabilty problems for some models and they are costly to repair, but any highly tuned performance car is going to be the same way. And talk about unreliabilty, every time it rains my Austin Healey refuses to run!!!

Ferrari's newest models (550, 355, 360) are extremely good drivers, very reliable and performance to kill for!

Yes, some models are traded as if paintings or sculptures and that is thanks mostly to Sergio Pininfarina and his design frim who have clothed Ferrari's chassis in some of the most unique, individual and stunning designs in the automotive world. But poorly designed?
Hardly!!! The Ferrari V-8 is better engineered and designed then my VW Passat could ever dream of. (So much for German engineering).

Ferraris are inpratical as a basic form of transportation and that is why they can go 30 years with minimal mileage but if you've ever driven a 275 GTB in anger then you would agree that the experience is worth every dollar!! That's where the value comes in. Giving you a driving experience that no car has been able to match. It's more than just speed, power or agility. It is the specific note that the Lampredi V-12 makes at 6000 rpm. It is the feel of the pedals and shifter that only a Ferrari provides. It...

It just can't be explained.

It has to be experienced.

And that is what it is all about.

[Sudsbouy]

Ask Mr. Button what it's like to speculate in Ferraris.

My understanding is that he bought a used one and incurred the disfavor of the Bimmer people. Does anyone know if he resold it? If he hasn't, I'm sure the value's gone up based on his recent performances.

Thank you.

[Christiaan]

Hard to believe the who stayed down the road from me in Germany had two of those cars. A yellow and a red one. Then there was the F50 and the 348TS. Wanna know what he does for a living....he produced porno flicks.

For two F360s I think I could do it too

[Damop]

Actually, the reference to the F1 car was not in the actual Satan episode (which was part of the Hallowe'en special), but in the out-takes from the 137th episode special, which threw in so-called out-takes (actually just stuff made up in that episode). Geez I miss Phil Hartman doing Troy McLure and Lionel Hutz.

Sorry Skiane - close but no cigar.

[Dudley]

The reference is from "The simpsons 137th episode spectacular" as stated above. The particular hallowean ep in question it was supposed to have been swiped from is "Treehouse of Horror 4".

[RedFever]

Tox

"they are unconfortable, poorly designed and very costly to repair". You must have never driven one!!! OK< no sport car will be as comfortable as a Mercedes or a Rolls. It can't be and it shouldn't be. Poorly designed? Pininfarina has produced for 50 years some of the most elegant, innovative and classic at the same time designs ever produced by anyone anywhere. I am stunned by reading a statement like that. Why do you think the 1957 250 Testa Rossa prototype is at the Smithsonian musem??? Have you ever seen it?

Finally, they are costly to repair. No ****, Scherlock. But why? Mercedes are cheap to fix? and Porsche? and what about Jaguars, that until Ford taught them some quality control spent more days with mechanics than on the road (ironic considering what Jaguar is going through in F1!!!). A sport car is an extreme car. Some of Maranello's car today have 70-80% of the car derived from their F1 experience. They are not built to drive 150,000 miles, that is a job for Hondas and Toyotas. But if you had ever driven one, you would know how far from reality you are.

[This message has been edited by RedFever (edited 04-25-2000).]

[Toxicant]

I'm home right now and don't have the time, but tomorrow I will reply to my Ferrari slam.

Just to let you know, I have driven Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes, just to name a few. I also own more then a dozen of those marks.

Poorly designed had nothing to do with the dress they wear.

Tox!

[RedFever]

well, I leave you with your Porsches and Mercedes, I'd take a Ferrari over them anytime, anyday, anywhere.

[gray_cat]

What are the Ferraries, Porsches and MBs among dozens you own, Tox ? Just curious

[bigblue]

I got to drive a 308GTB and it wasn't the most comfortable car I ever drove , could hardly fit my shoulders in the seat but let me tell you. It was a thrill for me and I enjoyed every minute of it. especially when I put my foot to the floor for a run up the gears. Would I buy one for everyday use, no way. Was it awesome, YES!!! It was a friggin Ferrari

[Cinquecento]

The source (Turun Sanomat / Erja) did not
mention how much the wealthy gentleman paid
for the car. It was yours truly who thought
Hakkinen might have made dough in the
process. Nothing to back it on except the
"possibility" that there are people who'd
pay a lot of dough to get a F1 WDC's car.

Anyone seen the Auto Motor & Sport article
from 1994 or 1995 where Michael Schumacher
test drove and compared sports cars? I don't
recall the models, but Ferrari won while
Porsche ended dead last. Have to dig it up.

[Toxicant]

I suppose I should tone down my blanket statement that all Ferrari road cars are poorly designed, uncomfortable and expensive to repair before I receive a fish rolled in newspaper on my door step

When Ferrari first started making road cars they were pretty much racing machines for the street. Some of the models produced in the late 50’s into the early 70’s were some of the most beautiful cars ever built but were they uncomfortable, temperamental and expensive to repair? Yes.

For years Ferrari lived off their name and produced poorly engineered automobiles. Simple things like fuel injected were not incorporated into their models until the middle 80’s while Mercedes had been using it since the 50’s. Trying to tune three weber carburetors was an act of futility, get them perfect on a nice warm sunny afternoon only to have the car sputter, cough and spit the next time the temperature was 20 degrees cooler. Driving position was another major flaw in their design, not until the late 90’s did Ferrari finally decide that the proper steering wheel position shouldn’t be truck like and offered an adjustable steering wheel. If you’ve been around these cars to any degree the list is endless of poor panel fit, misplaced switch gear and poor quality engineering of such simple things as door handles. The next time you’re near a 308 GTS, open the drivers door and tell me you’re impressed with the way the door handle operates. Try and fire up a carburetored V8 308GT4 turning the ignition key with your right hand as you reach around with your left hand, inside the center consul to adjust the choke. Tell me why they insist on having a gated shifter to this day? Have you any idea how many transmissions have needed overhaul to the tune of $12,000 dollars because of the poorly designed gated shifter and weak syncronizers?

Competition has forced Ferrari to finally enter main stream sports car production. The build quality on newer models has improved considerably but to a certain degree they are still “quirky”, perhaps that is just the Italian way. I think the 456GT is a beautiful automobile, the lines are very reminiscent of the 365 Daytona, one of my favorite Ferrari’s but considering it’s price tag, is it that much of a better car then say an Aston Martin DB7? What about a Porsche turbo, a far more advanced automobile for half the money.

I grew up in the car business and have been around all types, models and years. At the age of 14 I learned how to drive in a 65 4.2 litre E-type. I drove my first Daytona at the age of 16 and spent quite a lot of time in a 308GT4. This just happens to be a benefit of being in the car business.

One early Sunday morning as I stood on the corner of 2nd and 34th street in midtown Manhattan. A blue F355 GTS rolled to a stop, a few blips of the throttle, the light turned green and I watched and listened as it rocketed through 3 gears, the sight, the sound will be with me forever. Did it make the hair stand up on the back of my neck? Damn right! Would I want that car in my garage? With so much out there to choose from probably not.

Tox!

[DJS]

The last I heard (and it was a while ago!) those nice men at Mercedes had given Mika and David a shiny new Merc each!! Pity they were A class'...

If BMW are upset with Jenson having a 2nd hand Ferrari maybe they should give him somthing better to play with... like an M5 or a nice Hartge 540 estate!! or maybe one of those 'Sebring' GTP M3s... or an M1 Procar et al...

[stoopid]

Cinquecento: For some reason, I don't think Mika bought/sold the Ferrari to make $20k, $50k or even $100k... it certainly wouldn't be worth his time and effort... he makes a lot of money ya know.

Maybe he was just doing a favour for a collector friend, who wanted a Ferrari that was originally owned by Mika Häkkinen, WDC.

Not that I think that's true either, but until you know the facts, I don't think it's fair to ridicule him either.

[DJS]

"...Mika didn't like the F-1 style gear change..."


Hmmm maybe it didn't have a special button to help help his starting

[Cinquecento]

Stoopid,
never meant to ridicule the man. Just
wondering why he didn't test drive one
before purchasing. None of my business, of
course. I doubt he set out to make a few
K's, but I bet he eventually profited.

[130R]

Tox - I agree completely. I have driven several ferrari's from 308's, 328's Testarossa's, a Dino etc. Again, I agree.

I will only add thatif you go out and pound around in a Ferrari, the next day the car will need tuning, or more!

If you go pound around in a 911 it runs the same day after day after day (i've owned one) Now the Porsche doesn't have the cachet of a Ferrari - but does it matter? To some I guess. LOL!

[Toxicant]

To me the most important consideration in an automobile is how it performs and functions. I refuse to look past poorly designed and engineered automobiles just because they happen to have some sort of perceived mystique. Unfortunately many people own and drive Mercedes, BMW and Porsche’s based solely on their status seeking agenda, thank God the engineers that design and build them have a different objective.

You are spot on regarding the Porsche, I have a 928 S4 that will out perform 90% of the Ferrari’s ever made and do so without constant attention. Every time I twist the key the engine starts the same and everything functions in the car whether it’s been sitting for two weeks or 6 months.

I get a kick out of these people with their Gucci this and Prada that and things that come in little blue boxes. My girl friend to a certain degree happens to be like that, I jokingly call her Manhattan trash

Tox!

[Ellen UK]

Tox, you are knowledgeable about cars, but obviously ignorant about leather, shoes, etc.

Of course Prada shoes are over-prized, they have been the hottest brand in the past 2 years. However, if you look at them carefully, the way they are stitched, the quality of the leather, the design, well, I am sorry to inform you that Gucci and Prada are to fashion exactly what you claim Porsche is to cars. Top designs combined with top quality, leather work or tailoring you can only get in Italy (not surprisingly, Donna Karan's couteur/signature clothes are made in Italy!!!). I guess you better don't piss out of your territory, you'll just mess your pants!!!

[Ellen UK]

I want to see you outperform my dad's F40 with your Porsche, Tox, by the way.....

[Toxicant]

Well hello Ellen, I didn’t give it much thought to you not being here to defend Ferrari , considering we touched on this topic once before about a year ago, but I should have known better when I mentioned Gucci and Prada.

I’m somewhat guilty as charged regarding the perceived quality of such, although I have purchased bags, wallets, belts and what not signed with names such as Ferragammo, Gucci, Prada and Hermes, I do question at times the quality but then again I am no expert. Like you said the stitching on the Gucci bags and Prada shoes is without match as far as their womens lines go but I find the men’s shoes to be lacking in quality. I much prefer shoes made England over anything Italy has to offer. But like my girl friend always says, there’s no accounting for taste.

Ahhh the F40, considering the cost of that car the poor Porsche is no match, if you consider only 9/10’s of a second slower to 60 and 35 mph less top speed no match. Frankly the car should perform leaps and bounds better then my Porsche, but if you were to match it up against the same year Porsche Turbo the gaps between the two would be less. I guess the reason for this is that it’s not a true Ferrari, considering it doesn’t have a V12.

Be honest with me though, doesn't it kind of look like a kit car? LOL

I'm just teasing you Ellen, maybe

Tox!

[Ellen UK]

No, Tox, I really love that car and would never exchange it for any Porsche. I understand your rationale, but see, there is something about a Ferrari like the F40 that you cannot explain. I don't care if a Mercedes is more comfortable or if a Porsche needs less tuneup. I never felt the same magic feeling I feel in that car with anything else (and I drove Rolls, Jaguars, Mercedes, Porsches, etc). The only time I felt a similar feeling was in a Lamborghini. Driving a few inches from the asphalt, the way the car looks, whatever it is that makes me feel an incredible rush, it's not rational I know, but there is no Porsche that comes close to that.

I don't know anything about Prada male shoes, sorry. The women's stuff is way superior to anything I have seen around, including Hermes, Channel or any other French brand. Even better than Gucci for sure. I particular there is a pair I bought last year, the finishing on the sides of the bottom of the shoe, every detail, it was a masterpiece, i almost felt guilty wearing them.

I agree that for men there are some great quality tailor made suits and shoes made in the UK, but the classic old fashioned style makes me cringe. The eye wants its part too and there is nothing coming to the UK (I am British!!!!) that even comes close to what Minuccia Prada or Tom Ford for Gucci are doing. It's like cars......the UK produces clothes for men that are like Porsches, perfect and reliable, but Prada and Gucci are the Pininfarina/Ferrari of fashion, one step over everybody else. And heads turn when a Ferrari passes by, hardly noticing the Porsche following it........ I guess it's the practical side in the American in you. My Italian hald is dominant over my Irish half, creativity and beauty are more important than rational practicality to me!!!

[Ellen UK]

RedF mentioned the 1957 250 Ferrari Testa Rossa. I guess he saw the poster in my office from the Smithsonian museum. Tox, have you seen it? Porsche never produced anything like that, it's not a red car, it's a Monet, a Picasso, a Van Gogh, a Raphael masterpiece of the 20th century.

[Ricardo F1]

Ferrari's are just magical. I've had the pleasure of riding and driving a few - being in an F50 around Silverstone was a joy. That said it was a bit dull compared to my Griffith 500 - the F50 didn't roll or slide at all. No fun!

[Ellen UK]

Ricardo, some guys know how to make it slide, trust me!!! Give it to Michael....

[Ricardo F1]

I actually went round in it first with a friend and then one of the BTCC guys - it's very smooth, the Griff just drifted beautifully!