22 replies to this topic

[chriso]

Greetings from the Frozen North!

I'm new to Atlas, so please forgive me if this topic has been dealt with before.

I'm an ex-F3 driver ('71 and '72) and GPL addict who is interested in making my sim experience as realistic as possible (and thereby relive the Good Olde Days!).

I recently acquired a shifting mechanism from ACT Labs in Canada and, using it with my three pedal setup, I can now can shift just like I used to back in the '70s. Naturally, I am using the heel-and-toe method for braking while blipping the throttle, but a question has arisen recently among GPLers about whether F1 drivers in 1967 skipped gears when downshifting (e.g. going from fifth to second). In a recent issue of Motor Sport, it was stated that Graham Hill preferred to shift this way, but wasn't able to do so during the 1967 season because the Lotus 49's ZF gearbox didn't allow it. I'm sure Hill was very pleased when Lotus switched to a Hewland 'box for the 49B in 1968, as the Hewland did allow one to skip gears while downshifting.

Anyway, if the Lotus 49 didn't allow gear-skipping during the 1967 season, what about the other cars? I could swear I read somewhere that under the slotted top of the Ferrari 312's shift mechanism there lurked some sort of sliding plate that was meant to prevent a driver from accidentally shifting from fifth to second (instead of fourth) or fourth to first (instead of third) so as to avoid catastrophically over-revving the engine. As I did in the '70s, I am presently going down through all the gears when downshifting, but it would obviously be very handy to be able to skip gears sometimes, especially when there is a lot of downshifting to be done in a short time (i.e. in a short braking area). At the 'Ring, I shift 108 times per lap, so things get very busy.

Can anyone enlighten me on this topic? Thanks in advance for any information.

Chris O'Brien
Yellowknife, NWT

[Don Capps]

Chris,

First welcome to the forum.

Second, I personally don't recall gear skipping to even be mentioned until sometime after 1967 when it came up in a Denny Hume interview, the Bear mentioning that the Hewland allowed him to skip gears on the downshifts. I know that my few ventures into motor sports at the time, skipping a gear would never have crossed my mind!

Maybe some others can be of more help, but your thoughts are in line with what I remember.


PS: Brabham BT35? Diners Club GP Racing?

[Christopher Snow]

Hi, Chris....another Chris here (Snow)....:

I did see your recent thread on this topic over at GPLEA forum but didn't really have a chance to reply there.

I'm the one from there who has (most recently perhaps) been over here picking the brains of Doug Nye and some others--I think those threads might be the ones you had seen.

Things got rolling intially here:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38033

...and Doug kindly followed up with answers to some of my queries here:

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38671

One of those I'd hoped to hear more on was the question of whether or not that gear skipping mechanism actually did exist in the 49's ZF (in the upper four gears as well as between second and first).

Doug did say he'd taken the opportunity to drive 49R3 back when he oversaw the rebuild, but it was about 20 years ago now....

They didn't fire up the car on his most recent trip, and it would have taken quite a bit of effort to get it out on a track just to answer those questions, so I suppose the article you found has the best answer as we can hope for at the moment. Maybe someone can find out more the next time one of the cars is raced? Let's hope.

BTW, you might find my last addendum to that first thread interesting. I had stumbled across your "in car" video and put up the link in here (good stuff, btw).

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38033

----

Last..that Ferrari shift mechanism--you might also have seen the description I dredged up a while back from Niki Lauda's first book, "Art and Science" (1975--he seems to have been referring the the 312T).

There were a couple of photos of the small shift lever and gate-set there, and he wrote a bit about that internal slider between second and first. Very much like the one the ZF box Lotus had it seems--second gear had to be engaged before the slider opened up to let the lever into first.

I have the impression, however, that the method used by Ferrari was to use a slider in the levergate-set and not the gearbox, while the Lotus's ZF box might have used a detent mechanism inside the gearbox itself. Had it been a funtion of the lever or the linkage that "skip-preventing" feature would have ported right over to the later Hewland gearbox equipped car (or so it seems to me anyway).

There was also a simple lifting lockout for the reverse gear slot--Lauda demonstrated how he would lift the lockout with one hand and then shift into reverse with the other. Need to add that to your ACT, I think...

I'm not aware of any similar sliders or lockout between the upper four gears at all, so I suspect a downskip or two was at least possible by then.


Christopher Snow

[chriso]

Hi Don

Thanks for your reply. Your PS was absolutely right! In what obscure data bank did you find that information? I thought I was irrevocably lost in the "round file" of motor racing history. As I am now 56, this nostalgia forum is definitely the one for me. As you can imagine, GPL has me hooked, and I'm having great fun visiting all my old crash sites. I've even learned a new skill, trail-braking, which I never used in F3 and was actually unaware of until I saw Peter Revson using it at Druids in an Alfa sports car in the BOAC 1000 at Brands ('71? '72?).

Anyway, like you, I never even considered skipping gears when I raced, but I can see how it would come in handy now and then. I do believe, however, that going down through all the gears (gently, of course) does have some benefits, e.g. there is probably a touch of engine braking (thereby saving a bit of brake wear), and there is less likelihood of selecting the lowest gear in the sequence too soon, thus averting over-revving or/and causing sudden loss of adhesion of the rear tires.

Anyway, I'm hoping someone will have the information I'm after, especially for the Ferrari 312, my favoured mount in GPL.

And hello again, Christopher Snow.

Thanks for all that info, and for mentioning the Rouen video in another thread. So my memory wasn't completely faulty about the Ferrari shift mechanism, although the slider thingy may only have worked between second and first. Hmm... Obviously a mis-shift into first would be the most likely to do real damage to the engine or cause a spin (although fifth to second instead of fourth would certainly result in lots of screaming, and not just from the engine!). But come to think of it, as I remember, the shift pattern of the Ferrari had first gear over to the left and back, putting fifth and fourth in the same plane, and therefore less prone to a mis-shift. Trouble is, the ACT Labs shifter doesn't allow for such a pattern, so fifth is off on its own to the right and forward, and on a few occasions when whipping it left and back into fourth, I have found myself in second. What a naughty boy! The little red tell-tale tells all!

Well, I might try out fifth-to-second, or at the very least, fifth-to-third and see how it works out, but I must say that using all the gears is certainly a real challenge, and as I'm still working on perfecting my shifting technique (practice makes perfect!), I'll probably continue to go down through 'em all until I get the definitive word on the '67 312. The reverse lockout is something I'd like to add to my shifter one day when ACT Labs makes the right shift pattern available, but right now, reverse is in a relatively fool-proof location!

BTW, I was very interested to see that Doug Nye had not seen GPL until you introduced him to it, which would lead me to believe that a lot of other knowledgeable people in the historic racing world have not seen it either. I think they're all in for a very pleasant surprise at Goodwood in July (I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the demo happens!). GPL, the cure for the ache of motor racing nostalgia!

Thanks again, lads!

[Christopher Snow]

I certainly do hope too that more interesting info comes out of Goodwood too.

Your memory of the Ferrari shift pattern does agree with the photos in Lauda's book--three "slots, with reverse left and forward, and first left and pulled back. The same pattern as with the original ZF box on the Lotus, as it turns out--this from Doug Nye's recent stop to see the car (thanks again, Doug).

After posting last night I found again a small bit on that ZF that might tend to confirm the statement in the article you found. In Michael Oliver's book "Lotus 49, Story of a Legend" [ISBN 1-901295-51-6] there is this line: "The [ZF] box also had a mechanism on it for preventing missed changes, which meant that drivers could not go 'across' the box by accident."

Two things leap out to me here: "ON" and not "IN" [the gearbox] might indicate that the "miss-protector" was a part of the linkage or "gating"and not integral to the gearbox after all. But also a feature which might then have been disabled or reworked when the Hewland was added later.

And the other was the bit about "going 'across' by ACCIDENT...." I've wondered (and was therefore prompted to ask Doug) if it still wasn't possible to go across by deliberate intent--perhaps using a pause or some sort of forceful pull to the right to allow a direct move from 5th to 3rd or from 4th to second..or even from 5th to second. But again, he couldn't remember, assuming he ever tried it at all.

I do note too that Tiff Needell did NOT make any reference to this when he drove the car more recently (R3 also I think). He did mention in a short article that he was advised how to address the second-to-first lockout ("first find second, then find first"), so one might be tempted to conclude that a lack of reference to a similar mechanism higher up in the box means that it wasn't there after all--but it was a short article and the editor might have chopped that out--or perhaps Tiff never discovered it because he never tried skipping shifts either. One wouldn't "experiment" willy-nilly on a such classic car without a definite agenda...and also without clear approval to proceed....

----

BTW, I can see a couple of ways that the proper patterns might be implemented on the ACT shifter, but I won't go into them here--they really belong over in the sim-racing realm (GPLEA forum). I did just want to let you know that I'd seen your query and was pursuing a similiar line of investigation.

I'll hunt up your thread over there if I can.


Christopher Snow

[karlth]

Originally posted by chriso
I think they're all in for a very pleasant surprise at Goodwood in July (I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the demo happens!).

Highly interesting discussion.

What GPL event is planned for Goodwood?

[Keir]

GPL ROCKS

[chriso]

Karlth

There is a reference to the planned GPL demo at Goodwood at the end of this thread: http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=38671 . There is a group of GPL enthusiasts planning it now. Doug Nye's reactions to information about GPL from Christopher Snow are very interesting.

Although there is a separate forum for GPL (and maybe technically I'm being a bad boy talking about it here), I feel that the nostalgia forum is the perfect place to at least mention the existence of GPL, because it really is an excellent motor racing simulation which will allow a lot of enthusiasts the chance to get some of the feeling of what it was like to drive an F1 car in an era which today is so saturated with nostalgia. In a number of ways, 1967 was the end of an era of motor racing, and so thick with heroes.

Anyway, Keir is right. GPL doth rock indeed!

[AlesiGOD]

GPL is the king of racing sims..

There's a new Ferrari 312 on the way:

http://gplea.racesim...errari_312.html

[AlesiGOD]

[oldtimer]

Stuck in my head from a totally forgotten source, is reading of Clark changing from 5th to 2nd at the old Gasworks hairpin at Monaco, and this was in the 1.5l formula days. Velvet touch indeed.

[Bernd]

Velvet touch indeed if you got the timing even slightly wrong doing that you'd be backwards through the haybales. Just think he 'only' had to do it 80 or so times during the race...

[merlyn6]

Interesting, I have always skip-shifted, but then I have always had a Hewland of one type or another. I have read, don't remember where, that downshifting and braking , as a means of slowing the car down was not as effective as simply braking, and the most effecient method was to go directly to the corner gear as soon as the revs allowed. I think this is particularly true when the tires allow really hard braking.

[chriso]

I just remembered something I witnessed once that might add a bit of fuel to the discussion. I attended the 1976 Canadian Grand Prix at Mosport as a spectator, and while standing on the outside of the circuit beside the braking zone going into corner 5A, I tape-recorded all the cars (a much-cherished tape which I still possess). The most impressive bit of gear-changing I recorded in that braking zone was James Hunt in his McLaren (presumably Hewland-equipped). Lap after lap, he downshifted three times in very quick succession and with incredible precision. No other drivers were doing that, and some of them were only shifting once. I think it's safe to say that Hunt wasn't skipping any gears, but what about the others? And if gear-skipping was acceptable at the time (as presumably it was), why did Hunt go down through the gears like that? Unfortunately, I didn't do any recording in any of the other braking zones, so I can't say if Hunt was doing the sequential thing at all the other corners that required going down more than one gear.

Hmm...

[merlyn6]

When I was doing FF, I asked other drivers how they shifted, some skiped, some didn't, it didn't seem to effect lap times too much. I kind of think its just what you do naturally. I just started out skiping, so I still do it, except on slow laps, then I go through the box. I think skiping is harder on the dogs though, as I go through a set in one or two weekends.

[Ray Bell]

The sound of Mike Hailwood going down through the gears from fifth to second at Creek Corner stick in mind... while FJ in the same car at the previous meeting had skipped the intermediates...

I believe there may be some confusion in the Hill interview. Though, of course, I cannot be certain, Graham may have been harking back even further, to the 'queerbox' and its progressive change.

I also think the reference to Clark's downchange at Monaco may have something to do with the car getting stuck in two gears at once - putting him out of the race. Of course, I have been wrong before...

[bobdar]

Interesting comments. I race a vintage Formula Ford with Hewland and always downshift sequentially. This is done without clutch, as I left-foot brake and can blip the throttle quickly and accurately; my dog rings are still in good shape after 10 seasons of use.

There are corners where this gets a bit "busy" (hard braking, downshifting from 4th to 1st), and I would guess that race cars with real tires and brakes might run out of time. Nonetheless, it's part of my timing mechanism, is fun to do quickly and correctly, and sounds zoomy.;)

[Doug Nye]

When Jackie Stewart first appeared at Monaco in the BRM P261 he quite surprised seasoned observers - DSJ included - by the apparent 'savagery' of his driving, the car's attitude responding visibly to his leaping instantaneously from flat-throttle to floored-brakes and back again - continuously demonstrating that he had the reflexes to correct the car's dynamic protestations at such treatment. There was no question of Frank Gardner-like "...always give your animal warning of what you want it to do".

Into the Gasworks Hairpin JYS buried the brakes and changed direct from 5th (I believe) to 1st, whereas team-mate Graham Hill seemd to brake just as hard, though with a somewhat less violent initial application, and then flurried down through the gearbox 4-3-2-1. But while Stewart tended towards understeer on entry into the Hairpin, then kicking the tail round under power at the exit, both Hill and Jack Brabham had their cars oversteering into the hairpin, and they had the power on earlier on the exit perhaps gaining some time on the long return run towards Ste Devote.

DCN

[chriso]

Interesting stuff about Jackie Stewart, Doug. I always thought he was Mr. Smoothness. Wasn't that what he taught all his pupils? I seem to remember something about him teaching braking and cornering techniques using a specially-modified saloon car with a football rolling around in a little tub on the bonnet so pupils would learn to avoid overly abrupt transitions . Do you suppose his "savagery" in the late 60s was just youthful exuberance?

Chris O'B

[Doug Nye]

Different times, different cars, so much less precise than the cars to come for the last 3-4 years of Jackie's career...different solution to the problem of lapping a circuit in the briefest passage of time.

Dick Scammell, one-time Team Lotus mechanic, opened my eyes when he explained how on one very rare occasion he and some of his mates had the opportunity to watch their cars out on circuit at the Nurburgring (I think they'd gone out to collect a broken down car), and peeking through the bushes they were absolutely aghast to see the manner in which all leading drivers - their own included - were so sorely abusing the jewel-like machines that they, the mechanics, had so carefully and lovingly put together. Think of the children today slamming cars with microscopic ground clearance over high sloping kerbs...plant trees on the apex, that would sort out the men from the boys...as would a few more trees right on line at the exit, preferably with claymore mines attached. Then perhaps I would find myself being truly impressed, again...

DCN

[chriso]

A fellow GPLer introduced me to this quotation:

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." - Jim Clark

It seems that the fear factor isn't what it used to be, with predictable results. When I raced F3 back in the '70s, cars coming into contact with each other was a much less common occurence. Banging wheels just wasn't done. I remember the first time someone made an ugly dart at me (an American driver at Silverstone who shall remain unnamed), I simply couldn't believe it. I don't even remember there being much hogging of the inside line to force someone to go the long way round (there probably was, but I guess back then I was still under the impression that motor racing was a gentlemanly sport). Nowadays, there seems to be no fear at all amongst the drivers of single-seaters, given that the cockpits are so much safer than they used to be. Pushing other drivers around, often literally, seems to be the norm now. It is amazing what these guys can get away with, but I can't help feeling that one day there is going to be a monumental accident between two or more single-seaters with cars leaping into the crowd.

But that's just me!

[Doug Nye]

Re JYS and his driving style at Monaco in the BRM P261 - particularly that first year 1965 - yesterday I asked him about it and about Jenks's description of his 'savage' driving then and he was a bit fazed at first but then admitted that perhaps that first year he did have some rough edges to knock off his approach:

"You must remember I'd raced at Monaco before in a Formula 3 and here I was in a Formula 1 car just a year later and everything was happening so much faster, you arrive at the corners faster, braking occupies less time, the straights seem shorter, the corners tighter - I was still learning my trade, and believe me I had a lot to learn. I was not then anywhere near a fully developed driver. But I was the absolute disciple of Jimmy's style of driving and he was Mr Smooth and I tried everywhere to model myself on him...but Jenks was a good guy, he'd for sure have been writing about what he saw, the way he'd seen it"

Regarding the downchanging into the Gasworks Hairpin:

"We had a six-speed gearbox in those cars and changing down 6-5-4-3-2-1 the way Graham preferred seemed to me an awful lot of work and it didn't give much engine braking. I tried going 6 or 5 down to 2 or 1, but ended up going 6-4-2 then picking up first if it was necessary for the Hairpin, but we sometimes geared the cars so we only used five there. I felt it was the quicker technique, to skip gears like that...."

OK?

DCN

[Roger Clark]

This is Denis Jenkinson on the 1961 Monaco Grand Prix:

"As practice neared its close...Clark was beginning to look fast as well as go fast. He did a terrific lap in 1min 39.6, looking almost wild, and on the next time round he lost it at Ste. Devote corner and crashed heavily, wrecking the Lotus but excaping injury himself".

The truly great drivers have something in common.