312 replies to this topic

[Bob Nomates]

Who is the dirtiest driver in F1?

Here is my top Five:

1.M Schumacher
2.E Irvine
3.R Schumacher
4.J Villenuve
5.D Couthard

What do you think?

[Smooth]

?

[Bob Nomates]

what?

[mono-posto]

Last I knew, ALL drivers bathed on a regular basis so I don't understand your question?

[Samurai]

Nobody's ever accused me of being PC
so I will answer Bob's post---

1. M. Schumacher
2.
3.
4.
5. Fissi? (rather should say dangerous than dirty, should mature with age)

[Andy]

Bob - Don't mind the no-minds here!!

Here's my list:

1.)MICHAEL SCHUMACHER (Way out in front!!)
2.)Eddie Irvine
3.)Damon Hill (Retired now but he will go down in history as having stuck his nose out a few too many times!)
4.)Mika Hakkinen (Not the angel he'd like to be!)
5.)Jean Alesi

But that's just my humble opinion!

------------------
The More People I Meet... The More I Like My Dog
JETPLAST Custom Displays

[RedFever]

1) Every Japanese driver that ever made it to F1

2) Senna

3) M. Schumacher

4) Alain Prost

5) Damon Hill

6) Olivier Panis

7) Mika Hakkinen

[This message has been edited by RedFever (edited 04-25-2000).]

[130R]

Senna
Schumacher
Arnoux
Johannson
Irvine

[Samurai]

RedFever my my my,,,
you don't like those Japanese guys do you?

[Bob Nomates]

Actually I will Make some changes:

1. Prost
2. Schumacher
3. Irvine
4. Senna
5. Mansell

[Todd]

Senna is the only driver I know of who went into a GP planning to take out an oponent at a particularly dangerous part of the track. Most of his numerous moves were more wreckless than dirty.

Jacques Villeneuve's entire Suzuka '97 weekend defined dirty. He went into the race under a baseless appeal so that he could adversely effect Schumacher's race. Then he tried to crash Schumacher out twice and blocked him for laps in the hope that another competitor would do it inadvertently. He was fortunate for what happened in Jerez. Otherwise, everyone would remember that he is a smudge.

Damon Hill's '95 ramming show was more of a display of crummy driving than dirty driving, possibly. His '98 season was dirty. He didn't just try to take off and slow down Schumacher, he also threatened his own team and teammate with crashing both cars if they wouldn't give him team orders.

DC/Ron Dennis. I'm sure DC didn't take it on himself to do Mika favors in Spa '98, Brazil '99, and Suzuka '99. That still doesn't mean that most other drivers would do the same for Ron Dennis.

Schumacher sunk to extremely dirty Jacques' level in Jerez '97. The difference is that Schumacher just made an extremely clumsy spur-of-the-moment lunge at JV, while JV had a calculated race that he knew he couldn't score points in just to try to crash Schumacher out.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Bob Nomates]

Todd, generally I agree with your last post, but I don't think Damon would really have rammed Ralf off the track had he passed him, I think Damon just wanted to finish the race without any pressure from Ralf, it was more likely that Ralf would have taken Damon out as he was behind rather than Damon taking Ralf off since that would be quite difficult and pointless if you are already infront of the guy....your point assumses that Ralf would have got passed Damon and then Damon just crashes into the back off Ralf ending both there races and handing Victory to Alesi, pretty unlikely I think and not really the sort of trick Damon would do.

Villenuve may have intended to be dirty in that race but he wasn't really, he didn't affect the outcome of the race at all and Schumacher still won.

[RedFever]

I like the two driving in CART now, but most Japanese drivers in F1, there because Honda or another huge sponsor placed them, where mostly a danger to themselves and everyone else. I am generalizing, a couple showed some talent in por cars, but other were a disgrace for F1.

[Todd]

Bob Nomates,

Just to clarify, I don't assume Ralf would have gotten by at all. Despite Schumacher's performance in Jerez '97, the easiest time to take both cars off is mid pass just by closing the door while the passing car is along side. I assume Damon meant he would do just that.

[404KF2]

1. M. Schumacher
2. A. Senna
3.
4.
5.

These two are/were so far ahead of their peers in questionable driving tactics it's amazing.

Todd, nice revisionistic history lesson. I don't recall Suzuka 1997 as being quite the way that you describe it.

[Frans MSH]

Oh my, what a question is that?

Number one, THE GREATEST IN THIS KIND OF ALL TIMES, HALL OF FAME FOREVER, Unbreakable record with it:

MICHAEL SCHUMACHER

A record!

Kind regards,

Frans MSH

------------------
This message was written by Frans Bijkerk.

Webmaster of
http://www.Anti-Schumacher.com
and http://Come.to/F1Babes
-------------------------
"Go to the outer space of your inner mind."

[Todd]

Originally posted by 404KF2:
Todd, nice revisionistic history lesson. I don't recall Suzuka 1997 as being quite the way that you describe it.

Then get yourself a tape of the race. I'm not revising a thing. JV withdrew his appeal after the race, just to show that he didn't try to hide why he was there. He was spared receiving the censure he deserved only because of Jerez. When you watch the tape, you will see the two attempts he made at crashing into Schumacher. The world feed replayed them repeatedly. They were that obvious. You're the revisionist, not me.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Bob Nomates]

I think that a pretty negative way to interpet what Damon said to his engineer....I don't belive that Damon would have left the door open then taken Ralf out, it's more likely that Damon wanted to avoid an incident like Argentina 97 between Ralf and Fissy.
Ralf had nothing to lose, Damon had lead most of the race and Ralf had been given the opertunity to win because of the saftey car.
Damon is a fair driver but I don't think he was about to move over and let Ralf by and happly come second, just so that both cars could finish 1-2, he wanted to win and disevered to.

[RedFever]

404KF2, I don't understand how you leave Prost out of your list, considering he showed Senna how to punt someone out for the title!!!!

[This message has been edited by RedFever (edited 04-25-2000).]

[StuffedBeaver]

The Beave's scoundrals listing

1. Arnoux without doubt the nastiest and dirtiest
2. Prost
3. Big Schuey
4. Senna
5. Swirve

Ralfie is a different beastie from 2 seasons ago. I don't believe that he would get involved in any of the shenanigans as he used to.



------------------
The Beav

[Bob Nomates]

Good post Redfever, why is it that people forget that, but always remember Senna's?

[Brackets]

Todd,

with regards to Suzuka '97, even Michael Schumacher - a driver who is not too hesitant to accuse drivers of "trying to kill him" - said that JV's move looked more dangerous on TV than it actually was.

Do you really think that JV is so bad he wouldn't actually succeed in taking out Schumi after having gotten two chances?

BTW, Mika Hakkinen is the dirtiest driver: he blows his nose in his balaclave, then whipes his tears away with it .

Jimbo.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Do you really think that JV is so bad he wouldn't actually succeed in taking out Schumi after having gotten two chances?

I think Schumacher is a great driver and when he tried to take someone off, he only managed to look like a jerk and get his own car stuck in the kitty litter. Maybe Senna and Prost really were better drivers...


------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Samurai]

404KF2 good post!

[This message has been edited by Samurai (edited 04-25-2000).]

[mtl'78]

Todd, sorry but only 1 current driver has a consistent record of punting off competitors, it wasn't Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve... Or Ralf.

[Linus27]

1 M Scumacher
2 A Senna
3 J Hunt
4 G Berger

That is my list of dirty drivers but Michael Schumacher is miles ahead of the rest because he really is a cheating, dirty bastard and he knows it. Senna did some dirty tricks and is not to far behind Michael. Berger I put in my list because I have seen and read about some of the things he has done and one that I remember is his move on Hill at Suzuka 96 at the chicane. Ok not to dirty but a bit of a cheap shot.

As for aggressive, have ago drivers I would say,

1 Jacques Villenuve
2 Jean Alesi
3 Eddie Irvine
4 Giancarlo Fischella

and if Mika repeats what he did at the start of Silverstone this year then he can join my list.

Anyway, it makes me laugh how some people defend Schumacher and distort what actually happened in some of his races.

M SCHUMACHER IS NOT A GOD BUT A BLOODY GOOD DRIVER BUT ALSO A DODGY CHEATING BASTARD.

[Brackets]

Originally posted by Todd:
I think Schumacher is a great driver and when he tried to take someone off, he only managed to look like a jerk and get his own car stuck in the kitty litter.

But at least there was *contact*. Just how hard do you think it is to hit another car? You even want me to believe DC could manage it by just going slower than normal with non other than MS as the target, so surely JV should have been able to *hit* MS, no?

Jimbo.

[mtl'78]

Oh and here's a lesson in revisionism, for my friend Todd, it seems that MS was pretty much unimpressed with JV's attempts at "offing" him:


"M. Schumacher: "It is a long time since I had so much satisfaction from a win, mainly because it brings me closer to the Championship. We knew Jacques would try and make my life difficult and try to get other cars to pass me. Initially I made a good start but then I had too much wheelspin. Jacques did brake a bit harder than usual a few times and I nearly touched him. Before the race, Eddie told me he might try and pass me at that point and it was quite funny when it happened. It was a very good manoeuvre. After the pitstops, when Jacques came out of the pits he moved right across but I managed to dive inside him. Thanks to Eddie we were in a good situation and he took care when he let me pass. It is thanks to him that I have this victory. I have always said he is a great driver and a great team-mate. Hill made life very difficult for me. There were a lot of blue flags and he should have let me through. In Jerez the situation is open. Whoever is in front will be the Champion. I am looking forward to it. I hope to perform in the same way and win the Championship"

[Samurai]

well whadayaknow!! I misread Todd's post!!!
I thought Todd post that Schumacher was a big jerk to try to take JV off at Jerez and ended up in the gravel.
And I thought it was strange such reasonableness coming from Todd (that's why i put the smileyface above, which is GONE now).
Oh gosh he can't have meant JV trying to take Schumacher off. That's unreal! what planet are you from?

[Todd]

mtl'78,

when Jacques came out of the pits he moved right across but I managed to dive inside him.

So MS slipped the noose, how does that change JV's intent? The run to the first corner was not much more dangerous than usual, unless you open your mind enough to see that JV had only one purpose in Suzuka. It was one of the dirtiest tactics ever used to run in a race where he knew he wouldn't score points just to adversely effect the outcome for another driver. There was no precedent to justify the little creep's actions. I'm going to guess you are one of the people who claims to be too simple to understand the meaning of the conversation JV had with his pit before pulling over for McLaren in Jerez too, huh?

At least I can live with what my favorite driver has done. You seem to need to stick your head in the sand and pretend you don't understand actions that even the ESPN commentators could wrap their minds around.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[Samurai]

I'm beginning to think revisionism is the wrong term for Todd. When you're fooling nobody but yourself, that's delusionism man.

[magnum]

I notice that Todd gives an explanation for Schumacher's move in Jerez, while hanging out the rest to dry.

So here's Senna's explanation. He went to the stewards of Suzuka before qualifying and asked them to move the pole position slot to the "correct" side. The stewards agree. He then goes out and captures pole position.

Later that afternoon, Prost phones his French buddy Balestre and tells him to keep the pole position on the wrong side. Senna, the next day, hears about this and asks the stewards why they lied. They tell him the decision was made by Balestre and all bets are off.

Senna, angered by what he feels is Prost's manipulation, coupled with the fact that prost had taken him out before at suzuka, gets angry and decides on a course of action: if Prost gets away in front, because he is 2nd and yet, because of his and Balerstre's manipulation, on the right side of the grid, he will end Prost's race there and then.

Cold blooded determination and anger. Absolutely. But I think many people would have done the same thing (if, that is, they had the guts to shunt into someone at 140mph!)

Schumacher? Different story. Whereas Senna's dirty deed was done with foresight and anger, Schumacher did his in the heat of the moment - not once, but twice. It is his nature to be "dirty" - when he put it into the wall in Australia (the first time we saw his achilles heel), his only ambition was to thwart Hill - and Hill, silly as he was, fell straight into the trap. Who can forget that smug look on Schumacher's face after as he stood beneath the "stop" sign knowing he'd won the World Championship. In Jerez, 97, same thing - his instinct was to try and take Villeneuve out. There was no anger, here, no the world is against me and i'll show em - no, this was just an instinctive move by an instinctively dirty player. And this time, as he stood at the track, his look was very different as he watched and waited for Villeneuve to break down.

Senna's instincts were of a racer - but he was a strange one, Senna. He truly believed, as his outburst at Suzuka the year AFTER the Prost incident makes clear, that Balestre and Prost were out to get him. For Senna it was him fighting against the world - and don't forget that Prost had ended his championship challenge in a way that had never happened before ... Prost and Senna had a history. But it was never his instinct to be dirty - he was just a very hard driver and his willingness to go over the edge unnerved Prost. And he felt that he had been done an injustice - and he reacted accordingly.

Schumacher is a different animal. When placed in a position of having a choice between taking someone off or not, Schumacher has chosen the former, twice in his career. And I personally am in no doubt that he would do so again, if the situation arose.

With this in mind then, the list would read:
1) Schumacher (instinctively dirty)
2) Prost (started this whole take out your opponent for the WDC)
3) Senna - not instinctively dirty, but when he did it, he made sure it was effective. All the same it tainted a driver whose talents were far above any mortal before or since (with the exception of Fangio).

No other drivers have ever come close to these three, not yet, anyway. And hopefully never again.

[RedFever]

coming from Samurai, delusionism.....yeah, he should know, he is the world's #1 expert.

Mtl'78, I doubt Ralph and Trulli would agree with you on your assessment of Damon Hill and even Schumi in Montreal probably would have a word or two to add......

[mtl'78]

Ouch.

Why didn't MS make a bigger stink about it? That's the point. The FIA put JV in that situation of the only point to JV's race was to slow MS, which he did. You are turning this into a friggin' Watergate when the main "victim" was more upset at Damon Hill refusing to be lapped!!!!


"It was one of the dirtiest tactics ever used to run in a race where he knew he wouldn't score points just to adversely effect the outcome for another driver. There was no precedent to justify the little creep's actions"

Hahahahahahahahaha! what was the dirty part, him swerving at the start?

(MS does it every other GP)


Was it brake testing him a couple of times?

Malaysia 1999???? WhaAAAAIIIIIIIT??????

Was it perhaps cutting across the track coming out of the pits?

Canada 1998??????

Hold on, I need to laugh again....

Ok, I'm better now.

[Todd]

mtl'78,

The difference is that Schumacher was really participating in the races you mentioned. He was there for points. Not just to keep others from scoring. Are you still claiming to not get it? Good bye. You are not worth the effort.

------------------
Forza Michael Schumacher,
Todd

[mtl'78]

Bye!

[jaxfan]

Todd I'm beginning to think that you never even watch the whole race you just check on JV to see what he's doing wrong, give it a rest! You don't watch Schuie because with your outlook he's always right & the downtrodden, I'm a Jax fan but that doesn't mean I can't see his faults.
Remember the commandment, something about worshipping false idols, I think you better quit the Church of Holy Racing Michael.

[Williams]

Magnum

I didn't know that Prost went to Balestre before the race to rearrange the grid. I don't disbelieve, I just hadn't read that in any of the accounts I've read.

What I really wanted to comment on, though, was your choice of putting The Schu as #1 on your list of dirty drivers, the difference between him and Senna, being that Senna's sin was "non-instinctive" and Schu's was "instinctive".

IMHO the non-instinctive, i.e. pre-meditiated act is much worse than the instinctive or "crime of passion". And, for what it's worth, I believe the law in most conuntries agrees with me on that.

In which case my list would look more like:

#1 Senna
#2 Schumacher
#3 Prost

I don't know if Prost pre-planned his crime, in which case he would move into the slot behind Senna and ahead of Schumacher.

[Franco]

Todd Ive only read your 1st post, but congratulations already on reaching a new low.

[HappyDude]

Hey magnum nice take on Senna and Schuey, I agree. And Williams, although you're correct that in the "real" world a pre-meditated act is generally felt to be worse than an instinctive one, I think things are different in the world of F1. I think the point magnum was trying to make is that Schumacher is "instinctively dirty" and that Senna wasn't, but there was this special situation where he did something unbelievable when he felt he had been wronged. That's still a pretty horrible thing to do, but it was a weird circumstance where Senna decided to "up the ante" so to speak. I think his ego just couldn't accept being the victim of what he perceived to be a fast one by Balestre and Prost. I don't think it equals Scumacher's consistent philosophy of "If I can't win I can stop the other guy from winning." Or look at it another way:

A) Put Schumacher in Senna's schues (pun intended) at Suzuka and I'm not sure he wouldn't have done something similar.

B) Put Senna in Schumacher's spot in Jerez and I highly doubt he would have done the same. He would have just driven like a maniac to regain the position.

1) Schumacher
2) Senna
3) Prost



[This message has been edited by HappyDude (edited 04-25-2000).]

[vroom-vroom]

Senna and Schumacher. Prost only did dirty dancing when Senna was around. Did anyone ever watch the last lap of the French GP at Dijon when Gilles Villeneuve and René Arnoux battled for second? A classic - Arnoux lost.

[Franco]

Magnum and Happydude great posts

Id like to emphasize that the Prost/Senna offs where largely a consequence of a personal and heated rivalry between them, with both of them resorting at desperate times to extremely dirty tactics. They hated each others guts, in a word, a situation that developed after being team-mates at McLaren. I seriosuly doubt that either of them would resort to ramming other drivers just to guarantee victory, alas MS. JV and MS never really raced much at all in '97, and if there was a rivalry it was a long-distance one, because they didnt share a podium at all the whole season. Hence I have to assign no.1 to Schumacher, who has rammed off 2 different drivers not for personal reasons, but only for pure selfishness to win at all costs. As for the question "would Schumacher do it again?" I believe he wouldnt, not because hes now a saint, but because doing it a 3rd time would (I hope) open the worlds' eyes and show what a bastard MS really is. But this is what I thought at Jerez 97, "nah he wouldnt risk his public image by ramming JV off ala Hill", but he proved me wrong. As for a 3rd time opening the worlds eyes, I fear even if it happened a 3rd time that delusional morons like Todd would ever wake up and smell the coffee.

Somebody get that bastard off our beloved Ferrari!!!

[Ross Stonefeld]

They race to win. There is pressure from the team, the sponsors, the fans, national patriotism and of course their own will to win. You have to do EVERYTHING you can to get the best possible result in a race. You have to push every regulation, in the sporting code and tech guidelines. To do otherwise would be selling yourself short. I've got no problem with "dirty" drivers as long as they do one thing. When you get busted? Own up.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec Group Motorsport

[Smooth]

Jeez, what a load you guys are.... I am clearly a Schuey fan, but I am not going to try to justify his actions w/JV.... he F-ed up, he paid for it. The Damon thing, I am not 100% on...... Damon showed his lack of racing prowess, MS may or may not have known his car was terminal, but I guess you guys know everything. (I was at that race...) But to say Senna doing the same, or worse, is ok is ridiculous!! Senna was a supremely talented racer in every respect, but the guy bordered on psychosis at times, as has been pointed out, with his me against the world crap. So if he was a little wrong in the head, it was ok? He said he was guided by God, so that must have made it ok..... and as far as his problems being only with Prost.... well selective memory.

Schuey, Senna, Prost, and any top level talent, with huge expectaions and pressures, probably do feel a bit above it all. They are constantly handled with kid gloves, catered to at every whim (Well, except Prost now!), and are told by the masses how great they are everyday. How can this not have cause and effect? Hell, even Button thinks his own **** smells like roses already. An Autobiography @ 20 years old? Jeez, I bet he will be the same as all the 'Prodigies' before him.

So dirtiest 3 of the last twenty years? In no particular order:

Senna, Schuey, and the ****er who ran me off the road on my motorcyle a couple of weeks ago!!

[This message has been edited by Smooth (edited 04-25-2000).]

[vroom-vroom]

As much as I admire Senna and hate to defend Schumacher, there is no doubt in my mind that Senna would have closed the door on Jacques had he been in the same situation as MS was in Jerez '97. Senna was famous for his 'assertiveness' - for lack of a better word. It was particularly obvious when he dealt with Prost and Mansell; I remember quite a few starts when one or the other got pushed by Senna to the extreme edge of the track. It was Senna's trademark and other drivers knew it - well except for Eddie. I would have loved to watch a WDC battle between MS and AS. I'm sure it would have ended up in controversy.

[HappyDude]

Well vroom-vroom, at the risk of starting up an old arguement again...:

Schumacher did not "close the door" on JV in Jerez '97. Closing the door in my mind is the situation where someone is having a look to get past and you aggressively defend your line, removing the opportunity to pass without a shadow of doubt, perhaps indicating "if you go with this move we will collide." Schumacher did not do this to JV. JV was *in the act of passing him*, the move was already made, and Schumacher rammed him. There was nothing JV could have done to avoid it - it wasn't an aggressive move to force him to back down. If you really want I can go find a video of it, there's several up on the net that show it quite clearly. Byt the time the collision occured JV's front wheels where ahead of MS's car and MS's front wheel hit the side pod of JV's car. Closing the barn door after the cow's already escaped if you ask me...



[This message has been edited by HappyDude (edited 04-25-2000).]

[AlesiGOD]

Irvine dirty!

------------------
www.colorquiz.com

[Duane]

I agree with Todd about Suzuka. JV pulled a very dangerous move at extremely high speed on the straight, a move that should have earned him another race ban and was very similar to that stupid and dangerous move Senna made on Prost in Portugal 88. I f he raced in Japan, he should not have raced at Jerez, yet the FIA wanted a big season finale so they let the Williams team withdraw their appeal after the fact.

MS made a stupid move in Jerez and beached the Ferrari - served him right. He should have let JV slide on by, but he didn't.

Both drivers let it be known that dirty tactics would be allowed against each other ; MS had done it in past and JV with the dangerous move in Japan.

Neither is an angel.

The one point about that whole season that amazes me, and is rarely discussed, is the race fixing employed by Williams and McLaren at Jerez. Compared to contact between drivers who actually racing each other, conspiring to fix a rece (especially between tewms) is unforgiveable. Yet, the governing body and the press took a blind eye and chose to concentrate only on MS, when Mac and Williams and their drivers were quite clearly bringing off the first race fix in modern F1. The whole lot of them should have kicked out for that, instead Jerez is remembered for MS-JV. What went on at the end of that season cheapened F1 for good, and I've no respect for any of the drivers or team managers involved.


[This message has been edited by Duane (edited 04-25-2000).]

[MercMan]

How anyone can defend MS's moves on JV and DH is beyond me(well DH is a bit iffy). What MS did was wrong, the fact that other 'great' drivers had done it before him does not make it any better. Trying to justify the AS/AP incidents, is equally insane.

It is probably impossible to rank the dirtiest drivers(well MH supposedly wore the same set of underwear for most of his F1 career ). We can probably rank the first 5 in no specific order, Prost, Senna MS, etc.

--Smooth
Don't want to be pedantic but 'F' comes before 'S' and 'C' before 'E' so it should be ****er.., Schumacher and Senna.
I will have net access during my vacation, we have 3 computer at home, and 2 permanent residents!!!


Regards

MercMan

[Smooth]

MercMan.... , I meant to type 'In no particular order'. But you have to forgive me, I am handicapped mentally by my 'Blind Devotion' to the devil that is M. Schumacher!
And remember, I went to Tech as well... 'I used to be unable to spell ENGINEER, now I are one!!'

Interesting the lengths people will go to to justify their fav. drivers.... it is quite amusing really!