24 replies to this topic

[random]

Honda revealed today the exact reason behind their lower performance has been known for many months. http://www.f1i.com/98.html

A valve system problem was discovered in November and lowered rev limit was the only way to run the new motors reliably.

Honda claims there was no quick fix. It had to inform the sub-contractor that made the suspect parts and give it time to fix the problem that resulted from the design flaw. The new part was only delivered in time for this weekends San Marino GP. The level they expected to be running at season's start, will not be realized until the Canadian GP.

My question is, what in a motor takes 5 months to build? I suspect some internal engine components require some very high-tech and slow fabrication processes, but 5 months?

[Jezztor]

It takes time to analyse the problem, redesign the part, test it, refabricate it. 5 months is quite a long time, especially in F1 where deadlines are quiteliterally dead lines for the contractor or party involved, if not met.

Jezz

[AdamLarnachJr]

It's much like Ferrari and their new braking system which they wont have for a while. It was developed earlier last year during the season, but the problem is that production of the brakes takes so long that it won't come into effect till later on down the road.

Just as Jezztor said, Honda seems to be subcontracting certain components from various third parties, thus there is a bit of a waiting period, no matter how much of a priority a Honda F1 engine may be. However, I side with random on the time debate because honestly Honda has the resources to manufacture every individual part in house, one must think if this is really whats going on... or is it a design flaw in the engine?

[Christiaan]

contracting is very very risky business esp in F1. Its however desirable because it increases the knowledge base (if your contractor is ino serious RnD) and lowers costs. One problem that frequently happens is that a contracters RnD pace/budget/logistics won't fit into the buyers one so you get a situation like Benneton's FTT where the contractor simply could not keep up with the pace of F1's demands. Conversely you could get a situation like the PS2 where the creaters games still cannot fully exploit the technolgy that Sony gives them.

[Ghostrider]

I think Renault had the same problem (or claimed to have at least) with some sub-contractors last year. Some of them had quality problems with their components, and when Renault wanted new stuff, it took a pretty long time for them to respond. Gascoyne said something like "some sub-contractors were not up to F1 development speed" in the early parts of the season. Hopefully Honda's progress will be more quick from here.

[Pioneer]

This sounds like nothing but 100% pure good old fashioned spin.
IOW, Honda is making excuses for their sorry underpowered lump.

[F1Champion]

Originally posted by AdamLarnachJr
It's much like Ferrari and their new braking system which they wont have for a while. It was developed earlier last year during the season, but the problem is that production of the brakes takes so long that it won't come into effect till later on down the road.

Could you elaborate on this? What was so special about the braking system?

[marion5drsn]

The problem in any engine, no matter who makes it, is the long, Long, LONG time it takes to develop the various parts and to debug the engine on the dynamometer. No matter how much money that you throw at the project it still takes a long time. I am at this time studying the engines made by Maybach in World War –II for the German tanks the Panther and the Tiger and the problems that Maybach had with this engine/project. Hitler had decreed that the development time was to be only 8 months. The engine continued to have problems for about 3 years and never did really achieve the reliability that a tank engine needs due to many factors.
#-1, the Engine was just too small, was 23 liters (1403 cubic inches).
#-2, the engine was just too complicated for a tank engine. A tank engine needs lots of torque and a broad power band between the maximum torque and the maximum horsepower point. In different words it needs a long distance in the area under the horsepower curve!
#-3, it doesn’t need Single Overhead Cams and Roller Rocker arms.
#-4, it doesn’t need Spherical Segment Combustion chambers.
#-5, it doesn’t need roller main bearing.
#-6, it doesn’t need to use oil as “thin as water” to save the ROLLER main bearing and destroy the journal TYPE connecting rod bearing.
#-7, it didn’t need four dual venturi downdraft Carburetors on a V-12 engine.
#-8, it likely needed better Quality Control!
#-9, and more due to the fact that I don’t have enough information to fully examine the problems of the “Disk” crankshaft and the roller main bearing.
#-10 it was fortunate for the Allies that the engine was a piece of junk as it saved a lot of Allied soldiers lives!

I could get into the problems of the General Motors Allison V-12 aircraft engine but that was primarily the problem of the Depression and the lack of money that the Army
was willing to spend on a V-12 liquid cooled aircraft engine and they spent an unduly portion on Radial engines of Pratt & Whitney and Curtiss-Wright. Also a lot of money on “Pie in the Sky “ engines that never did work out due to the fact they was just not enough money and not enough good engineers at that time to do the job. At that time of the Depression not very many men could go to college. This wasn’t fixed until the GI Bill Of Rights was applied after the end of WW-II.

#-1, guess as to what the problem is on the Honda engine, remember this is a guess and not to be given an unduly amount of authoritive take. The seal rings on the air springs are to my opinion the weak link of the air spring system and a poor guess on the material or the shape of the seal itself is going to be deadly to the whole system. I haven’t any idea of the shape of the seal but at the speeds that these seals are used it seems to be a very big problem to get it right the first time.
If they made a poor choice on the valve, valve cooling or any incorrect choice on the materials that would be just plain and hard to understand stupid. Things like this were understood and engineers fixed them years ago. The sodium cooled valve was developed about 1925 and a lot of other things of the valve system also. When they stated that the valve system was at fault I started to think about the weakest link in the valve system and the seal was the first culprit. But we will never know, as it will be slid behind a curtain of silence. M.L. Anderson

[AdamLarnachJr]

Originally posted by F1Champion


Could you elaborate on this? What was so special about the braking system?

While I cannot elaborate specificially on the braking system itself, it requires different dimensions for the carbon disc, which take months to manufacture with all the heating cycles, etc. etc., this is what I had meant by having to wait down the road. Just trying to pour some water in Honda's glass.

[random]

Carbon of course is dis-allowed for engine components. If it were allowed the delays would be more understandable.

My feeling is also that they got something fundimental to the motors operation terribly wrong. That they not only had to refabricate some new bits, but had to go through a full redesign process in advance of that.

[Top Fuel F1]

Possibly they were trying to use MMC (Metal Matrix Composites) pistons and ran into trouble. Some others have thought about these (not being procluded by the rules); but for some reason they have not been ready for prime time up until this time. Since Al/Be was banned everyone continues exploring materials to run the higher RPMs.

Rgds.

[random]

A few of Honda's newer cars use carbon reinforced cylinder walls, S2000 was the first I believe.

But from what I gather it's not terribly difficult to build. They produce a MMC lump then bore it out and sleeve it.

[marion5drsn]

I'am perplexed! What does the cylinder block have to do with the valve system? The manufacturer said it was in the valve system!!! ??? Yours M.L. Anderson

[Halfwitt]

Originally posted by marion5drsn
I'am perplexed! What does the cylinder block have to do with the valve system? The manufacturer said it was in the valve system!!! ??? Yours M.L. Anderson

Maybe the holes for the pushrods weren't straight

[AdamLarnachJr]

Lol...

There's nothing wrong with pushrods if you keep it under 10,000rpm:) It's a newere design then OHC's, but I think Honda has gone with the more tradition door hinge valve

[Marco94]

VW has designed a new pushrod engine for the Polo or Lupo some 18 months ago. And Ilmor has of course build their famous Mercedes-Benz 500i engine for the 1994 Indy 500.

[Croaky]

You say it's a sealing problem with the air-operated valve system.
Sounds as if they're using vacuum-operated inlet valves...

[Pioneer]

Ilmor built that engine to exploit a loophole in the rules regarding stock blocks. It was nothing to do with any inherent advantage or disadvantage of pushrods.

[Top Fuel F1]

Having a 2000 Honda with Vtec myself has caused me to think about Honda using such a scheme in their F1 engine. However the F1 requirements seem too demanding for a scheme only having two different cam profiles/at different angles to switch between. I know the commercial version of Vtec has VVT (variable valve timing); but am not sure if it has VVL (variable valve lift). I suppose it could have both. However my shop manual does not provide a side by side illustration of the profiles of the two cams involved so I might be able to see that. The BMW's Valvetronic (VVL) and Double Vanos (VVT), with their infinite points of ajustment, seem idea for a F1 engine. Could be Honda has tried some thing beyond Vtec, as is commonly known, that is more like the function of BMW's VVT and VVL. A problem with the required mechanisms could take a good period of time to fix.

[testarosa]

Honda's VTEC uses a separate cam lobe to achieve higher lift and duration as well as more performance oriented timing. iVTEC (the new VTEC) uses the separate cam lobe, but with a hydraulically adjustable cam gear to allow realtime optimization of the cam timing. I doubt they use anything similar to this system in racing motors because the hardware on the valvetrain is a huge amount of dead weight that would not become active over the rpm range seen in competition.

[Top Fuel F1]

Originally posted by testarosa
iVTEC (the new VTEC)

Honda iVTEC:

http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/

[Yelnats]

Originally posted by Top Fuel F1
Having a 2000 Honda with Vtec myself has caused me to think about Honda using such a scheme in their F1 engine. However the F1 requirements seem too demanding for a scheme only having two different cam profiles/at different angles to switch between. I know the commercial version of Vtec has VVT (variable valve timing); but am not sure if it has VVL (variable valve lift). I suppose it could have both. However my shop manual does not provide a side by side illustration of the profiles of the two cams involved so I might be able to see that. The BMW's Valvetronic (VVL) and Double Vanos (VVT), with their infinite points of ajustment, seem idea for a F1 engine. Could be Honda has tried some thing beyond Vtec, as is commonly known, that is more like the function of BMW's VVT and VVL. A problem with the required mechanisms could take a good period of time to fix.

I think Top Fuel is close to the target with his comment. Althought we can't know the specifics of the design, several manufacturers have been exploring variable valve timeing including BMW. If you get something wrong it's a long and complicated design and testing cylcle before an improvement comes onstream. If anyone thinks it's just a matter of correcting an obvious flaw when one of these 18k rpm designs malfunctions, then they had better think again.

[desmo]

I must agree with TFF1 and Yerlnats here. The pneumatic valve spring is now a very mature and well understood technology. It appears quite capable of handling the rigors of 18K high lift operation reliably. If indeed the problem is as reported my guess is as well is that thje alleged problem likely stems from a VVT/VVL issue. Al matrix MMC intake valves would be another- albeit less likely- source of potential development difficulty.

[random]

Interesting paper on Honda's engine technology

http://www.itepsa.co...07_CH1_MAIN.PDF

[marion5drsn]

While studying the V-2 diesel engine in the Russian T-34 tank I ran across this article about the problems in developing engines from scratch. This is in an article about making models and something about the engine itself. It isn't easy! M.L. Anderson

http://www.kitreview...ereviewcs_1.htm