8 replies to this topic

[Hotwheels]

Looking at the 2001 / 2002 season, one wonders if the Williams / Mclaren team - Frank + Patrick , Ron Dennis +AN - have the fire in them now?

These people have achieved what they set out to do 20 years or so ago - make a name for themselves, make a small fortune , live their entire lives in a sport they love - but now they are middle aged men with really nothing new to prove - i mean 8 or 9 or 10 WCC - at the end are just numbers.

Ferrari on the other hand uses F1 as the main marketing tool and hence needs the glory etc - hence they buy the most expensive driver , do what ever is necessary to win, and maintain that at all costs . For Ferrari , it's not a personal gain or loss - it's a faceless corporation .Now it,s Luca
+ Jean today and some hired top cats tomorrow.

The point i am trying to make :

F1 is becoming a car manufacturers sport - Ferrari / Renault / Toyota / - i am sure tomorrow if BMW / Mercedes decide to build the entire car - they will just either
buy out or simply walk away from the present ties and build .

So - have we seen the last of the Williams / Mclaren as we did in the 1980's ??

Is the new equation- Ferrari / Renault / Toyota ????

I would think so .

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

No

[fillern]

I think you are right about the car-manufacturer part, but I think Frank and Ron will hang on until somebody boots them out of the paddock.

Without a doubt do big companys (like daimler-chrysler and toyota) have more money to maintain a successfull F1 team then a F1 team on it's own.

I believe we see more manufactures-teams in the future, but run be the same people like today, just under a different name.

VW will only get part credit if they join i.e. Jordan. On the other hand, if VW buys Jordan, names it VW and gets some victories, it's VW!

[ZenonMark]

To be honest you could be correct about Williams and McLaren but I really hope you are not though .Williams is hardly a young man and would like to safe guard his family should be pass ,so I beleive if BMW were to open their cheque book wide enough FW and PH would sell to them.I know FW and PH are racers and love to race but the fact remains in a season where they really must have thought they had a chance are being soundly beaten at the hands of Ferrari.

FW will not enjoy the Ferrari domination that is about to commence now the Rubens has an F12002 and the current FIA Micheal Schumacher bias and Montoyas castration cannot have left a good taste in FWs mouth.If Williams are beaten again this year soundly by Ferrari and FW feels they have done all they can ,lets face it they have tested every minitue of every day and have good reliabliity now what more can they do.
Mclaren are already 40% owned by Mercedes and if BMW bought Williams Mercedes would probably buy the remaining 60% from Ron Dennis and Mansohor Ohjor[Tag boss].Really all Mclaren need are a more powerful Mercedes and they would be right there, but that is easier said than done.

[BRG]

This boils down to constructors versus manyfacturers.

Ron Dennis and Sir Frank Williams (and Jordan, Walkinshaw etc) are in the sport because it is what they want to do. Not to sell cars or cigarettes or mobile phones. They are highly competitive people who hate losing. So if they lost last year and if they lose this year, they will just try harder next year. They will be around for a while yet - remember Ken Tyrell was very elderly before he finally sold up.

By contrast, Ferrari ( and Renault, Jaguar and Toyota) are only there to sell cars. No-one in the team has a personal stake - Luca is just a corporate suit and Jean Todt, although he may perhaps see the F1 team has his baby, is really just another employee. It is far more likely that a manufacturer will walk away if they fail to win - if you look carefully, you can still see Peugeot walking away over there in the far distance!

The constructors have a much better record of loyalty to the sport. If they leave, it is generally due to financial problems rather than losing interest.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by BRG
By contrast, Ferrari ( and Renault, Jaguar and Toyota) are only there to sell cars. No-one in the team has a personal stake - Luca is just a corporate suit and Jean Todt, although he may perhaps see the F1 team has his baby, is really just another employee. It is far more likely that a manufacturer will walk away if they fail to win - if you look carefully, you can still see Peugeot walking away over there in the far distance!

The constructors have a much better record of loyalty to the sport. If they leave, it is generally due to financial problems rather than losing interest.

So tell me again why Ferrari even started selling road cars to begin with? It was to finance the racing. They are not at all in the same situation as Renault and Toyota. Luca is a businessman, sure, but no more so than Ron Dennis. Ferrari will not bail when they start losing, like every other manufacturer has in the past. The current climate in F1 is very different with manufacturers actually becoming more than engine suppliers, so the next 5 years will be interesting. I must say, thought, it is very fullfilling to see Ron Dennis forced to bite his tongue and stick it out with Mercedes/Ilmor becuase he can't just jump ship to the hotter engine as he could in the past.

[dai_ferrari]

Originally posted by BRG
This boils down to constructors versus manyfacturers.

Ron Dennis and Sir Frank Williams (and Jordan, Walkinshaw etc) are in the sport because it is what they want to do. Not to sell cars or cigarettes or mobile phones. They are highly competitive people who hate losing. So if they lost last year and if they lose this year, they will just try harder next year. They will be around for a while yet - remember Ken Tyrell was very elderly before he finally sold up.

By contrast, Ferrari ( and Renault, Jaguar and Toyota) are only there to sell cars. No-one in the team has a personal stake - Luca is just a corporate suit and Jean Todt, although he may perhaps see the F1 team has his baby, is really just another employee.

Ferrari are not in F1 to sell cars, period. I suppose that during all those years that they didn't win, their road car sales suffered, right? Wrong! They happen to build really good cars as a matter of fact, irregardless of the racing they do in F1. They are some of the most beautiful, if not the most beautiful automobiles made, and very fastas well. The connection between their F1 involvement and their road cars is in the fact that they learn new technology from F1 that they then can incorporate into their road cars. So in answer to your post, Ferrari are no where near like Toyota, Renault, or Jaguar. Just like Ferrari are no where near like Mercedes, BMW, or Honda either. They are unique.

As for Ron Dennis and Sir Frank Williams having personal stakes in their company while Montezemelo doesn't. To some extent that maybe true, but let me remind you of something.

As an Italian, I would in Montezemelo's place, take it personal, as I'm 100% positive that he does. A vast majority of Italians take Ferrari personal. Ferrai is Italian, no matter if it's a Frenchman that runs the F1 team, no matter if a South African designs the car, no matter if a Britian is the technical director, etc, etc. I really don't think Montezemelo takes it any less personal than Mr. Dennis and Mr. Williams do, honestly.

[Inness]

Originally posted by ZenonMark
To be honest you could be correct about Williams and McLaren but I really hope you are not though .Williams is hardly a young man and would like to safe guard his family should be pass ,so I beleive if BMW were to open their cheque book wide enough FW and PH would sell to them.I know FW and PH are racers and love to race but the fact remains in a season where they really must have thought they had a chance are being soundly beaten at the hands of Ferrari.

FW will not enjoy the Ferrari domination that is about to commence now the Rubens has an F12002 and the current FIA Micheal Schumacher bias and Montoyas castration cannot have left a good taste in FWs mouth.If Williams are beaten again this year soundly by Ferrari and FW feels they have done all they can ,lets face it they have tested every minitue of every day and have good reliabliity now what more can they do.
Mclaren are already 40% owned by Mercedes and if BMW bought Williams Mercedes would probably buy the remaining 60% from Ron Dennis and Mansohor Ohjor[Tag boss].Really all Mclaren need are a more powerful Mercedes and they would be right there, but that is easier said than done.

Montoya's castration? How long have you been watching F1? It goes through cycles. Review Williams goals for the year. Another thing about racing, Anything can happen-ANYTHING!

[Liam]

Frank and Ron will have to be dragged, kicking and screaming away from GP racing. They do it because they love it, always have done. If Frank Willaims was in it for money or glory, he'd have probably left when Alan Jones won the championship, indeed, he'd probably have packed it in in '69 when Piers Courage was killed.

Enzo Ferrari sold road cars in order to finance the F1 team. It's true Luca de Montezemelo is a businessman, but he was the manager of the F1 team in the 70's, under Enzo's supervision.