40 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Well we've discussed the fastest corner now how about the most dangerous... This is a stickler for the circle boys as it is often a last stand is elevating NASCAR above F1....

"Oh well your F1 drivers are too affraid to race on ovals"

After watching the 1995 GP of San Marino last night I reflected back on both Gerhard Berger's and Ayrton Senna's accidents there and wondered if we could compare the ovals to such corners as Tamburello and Eau Rouge?

[lateralforce]

Nascar corners have bank angle thus elevating the neutral speed much higher than most corners in F1 circuit.

[dai_ferrari]

How can you compare Nascar with F1 speeds???

Nascar cars on the ovals aren't slowing down for chicanes, or 2nd gear corners, or hairpin turns taken in either 1st or 2nd gear. They are constantly traveling at anywhere between 170-200 mph, not on the short tracks of course, so of course through the banking they're gonna be real friggin fast, what do you expect?

When a Nascar driver comes up on a banked curve, remember he's already traveling at top speed from the straight he's just been on, and more often than not, he's got to lift just a bit.

Now an F1 driver coming up onto a fast corner no doubt, has had to first go through some stupid chicane or tight corner and gradually build up the speed before he gets to that corner, like Eau Rouge, or Blanchimont.

I suppose the only place where there might be some sort of evaluation done would be at Monza coming down the back straight through the parabolica. But even that is tighter than the old banking used to be. So how can you compare???

[palmas]

It seams the most dangerous corner in F1 IS THE FIRST CORNER!

[dai_ferrari]

Originally posted by palmas
It seams the most dangerous corner in F1 IS THE FIRST CORNER!

[Locai]

Are you defining dangerous as "most accident prone" or "most likely to result in serious injury"?

It's difficult to single-out a corner as being most dangerous in NASCAR since they are oval tracks. Most of the tracks have symetrical corners.

With that said, I would say that the following NASCAR tracks have some pretty dangerous corners:

1) Darlington - The front and back stretches are not parallel and the corners are all different radiuses and different bankings. It makes it very difficult to get a rythm.

2) Pocono - The track is triangular shaped. I believe that the front stretch is the longest of any oval, but it goes into a corner that's more than 90 degrees (almost a hairpin). Also, all three turns are different.

3) Indianapoli s - Very fast, very tight, very flat. Plus, the track really has 4 distinct turns instead of the usual oval that has 2 180 degree turns that are big sweepers.

4) Bristol - Half-mile high banked oval. Qualifying speeds of 140mph. Very fast, very tight, high G forces, lots of traffic, lots of bumping and banging.

5) Martinsville - Half-mile flat oval. Qualifying speeds less than 100mph. VERY tight, lots of traffic, lots of bumping and banging. Very hard on brakes. Dale Earnhardt once spun his car on purpose because his brakes caught on fire and he couldn't stop any other way.

6) Honorable mention goes to North Wilkesboro - Unfortunately, it's no longer on the schedule. It was 3/8ths of a mile. Extremely tight, especially with so many cars! It's most interesting quirk was that it actually was higher on one end than the other.

[dai_ferrari]

Originally posted by Locai
Are you defining dangerous as "most accident prone" or "most likely to result in serious injury"?

It's difficult to single-out a corner as being most dangerous in NASCAR since they are oval tracks. Most of the tracks have symetrical corners.

With that said, I would say that the following NASCAR tracks have some pretty dangerous corners:

1) Darlington - The front and back stretches are not parallel and the corners are all different radiuses and different bankings. It makes it very difficult to get a rythm.

2) Pocono - The track is triangular shaped. I believe that the front stretch is the longest of any oval, but it goes into a corner that's more than 90 degrees (almost a hairpin). Also, all three turns are different.

3) Indianapoli s - Very fast, very tight, very flat. Plus, the track really has 4 distinct turns instead of the usual oval that has 2 180 degree turns that are big sweepers.

4) Bristol - Half-mile high banked oval. Qualifying speeds of 140mph. Very fast, very tight, high G forces, lots of traffic, lots of bumping and banging.

5) Martinsville - Half-mile flat oval. Qualifying speeds less than 100mph. VERY tight, lots of traffic, lots of bumping and banging. Very hard on brakes. Dale Earnhardt once spun his car on purpose because his brakes caught on fire and he couldn't stop any other way.

6) Honorable mention goes to North Wilkesboro - Unfortunately, it's no longer on the schedule. It was 3/8ths of a mile. Extremely tight, especially with so many cars! It's most interesting quirk was that it actually was higher on one end than the other.

Aren't all 6 of these tracks, and perhaps all Nascar ovals dangerous because Nascar drivers don't like finishing a race with a pristine looking car? Don't they all like to have dents, scrapes, pieces missing, etc. when they finish a race? Plus, where's the manhood if you can't at least involve yourself with at least one accident on race weekend, totally smash up another car and your own, and walk away from it?

You know I've watched Nascar from time to time, even this year's Daytona. But driving around and around again, over and over for 200-250 laps is not my idea of exciting racing, sorry. Besides, they say F1 is processional?? Ever seen Nascar, they sometimes get up to 15-20 cars coming down the straight all lined up one behind another, or side by side, it sure looks like a procession to me.

[aportinga]

Bottom line...

I've seen plenty of NASCAR/IndyCar wrecks and none of them looked as bad as Senna & Berger in Imola.

The danger of those accidents was the direction that the cars went into the wall - and I might add that corner is(was) flat - out.

[Locai]

Originally posted by aportinga
Bottom line...

I've seen plenty of NASCAR/IndyCar wrecks and none of them looked as bad as Senna & Berger in Imola.

The danger of those accidents was the direction that the cars went into the wall - and I might add that corner is(was) flat - out.

Point well taken.

[D. Heimgartner]

Well then, aportvagina, you haven't seen the first CART race in Rio, when one of the.... (ok, so I don't remember what driver it was) went straight into the wall because he had manoevered onto the grass. It was one of the nastiest impacts into the wall ever. I'm also reminded of Indy a few years ago, when another driver when down onto the grass to avoid a crash and ended up being shot up into the wall at an obscene angle. (Both driver injured their lower extremeties severly.)

I also think Maricio Gugelmins crash at Texas had the highest ever g load recorded.

Heck, in 1994, Emerson Fittipaldi hit turn 4 of Indy at the same angle that Senna had hit at Tamburello. Emerson later said that had he been in a F1 car, we would have also been dead.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get across is that there have been some really bad crashes in CART, as well as Nascar in the past 10 years.

[Jerry Lee]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
Well then, aportvagina, you haven't seen the first CART race in Rio, when one of the.... (ok, so I don't remember what driver it was) went straight into the wall because he had manoevered onto the grass. It was one of the nastiest impacts into the wall ever. I'm also reminded of Indy a few years ago, when another driver when down onto the grass to avoid a crash and ended up being shot up into the wall at an obscene angle. (Both driver injured their lower extremeties severly.)

I also think Maricio Gugelmins crash at Texas had the highest ever g load recorded.

Heck, in 1994, Emerson Fittipaldi hit turn 4 of Indy at the same angle that Senna had hit at Tamburello. Emerson later said that had he been in a F1 car, we would have also been dead.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get across is that there have been some really bad crashes in CART, as well as Nascar in the past 10 years.

The one in Rio is the one I was going to mention too. It was Mark Blundell. Hurt his back pretty badly IIRC.

Indy is notorious for hard impacts with the wall. One the sticks out in my mind was Jeff Andretti in 92. He lost his right rear tire (as in it came off the car) and hit the wall head on. He was lucky to live but his feet were a mess as were many other drivers that year including Nelson Piquet's.

[aportinga]

aportvagina

Excuse me?

So you're turning this into a CART vs. F1 thing by utilizing massive accidents as the determining factor???

I could have mentioned those as well but I had already mentioned Imola in my opening post.

What do I need to do - draw up a map to keep u on tagret?

[Scudetto]

F1 certainly has had its share of horrific accidents. However, given the speeds at which Champ Cars and NASCARS are travelling when disaster strikes, and the general lack of impact-absorbing barriers, the frequency of fatalities and life-threatening injuries are far higher than in F1. Consider:

Greg Moore (killed in 1997 following impact with infield concrete barrier)
Alex Zanardi (lost both legs)
Scott Brayton (killed at Indy in 1996 during practice after tire deflation at speed)
Gonzalo Rodriguez (killed during practice in 1997 at Laguna Seca Raceway after car becomes airborne).

A timeline of autoracing fatalities during the last ten years can be referenced at this link.

[dai_ferrari]

I don't think the old Tamburello was all that dangerous IMO. I think the two major accidents there, besides Piquet's were due to mechanical problems on both Senna's and Berger's car. Should there have been more runoff area, yes, but because there's a river just beyond the fencing at the spot where the accidents took place, there was no way to add more area. Still didn't make Tamburello dangerous, which is why I've said all along it was nothing but a stupid knee-jerk reaction to the accidents as to why that corner is all screwed up know with the addition of the silly chicane.

I will agree that there are far more dangerous corners, not to mention circuits in both Nascar and Cart, and IRL, but mainly because so many of their straight and corners are lined with concrete barriers, which are as we all know, very unforgiving.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by palmas
It seams the most dangerous corner in F1 IS THE FIRST CORNER!

good one, palmas

[Jerry Lee]

Originally posted by aportinga
...wondered if we could compare the ovals to such corners as Tamburello and Eau Rouge?

OK, I'll try to stay on target.

I think Indy's corners (all of them) compare to Tamburello. They're all basically flatout lefts. That's one thing that I think makes Indy unique, and why I like is so much, is the 4 distinct highspeed corners.

Nazareth, PA is also another Oval that has some interesting corners too. The last turn is looked at as 1 or 2 turns depending on which driver you talk to.

That's all I can think of right at this minute.

[Liam]

If your car is driven by Jacques Villeneuve, then Eau Rouge is the most dangerous corner in F1.
The old Masta Kink was a bit interesting too. Speaking of old, the corner at the end of the long straight on the Nordscleife, wher you go under the bridge, is pretty scary too.

[D. Heimgartner]

Sorry, aportinga, I didn't have my glasses on earlier in the morning when I replied to your post.

Anyway, I just wanted to give instances where cars struck a wall at a very high angle... the way the F1 vs CART thing factor in was because you seemed (note that I'm not implying anything) to be ignoring severe crashes in CART.

By and large, I think that in Formula 1 the corners are not very dangerous--partially because of the lack of speed and partially because of the run-off and tire barriers. We can look at R130 at Suzuka. Kimi spun going flat out through there (or just about as fast as possible in a F1 car). This is an instance of a car travelling on the racing line and then going off. Now R130 has a good reputation of being a bad corner. The result, however, was not very bad. If a car travels at normal racing speed and looses it at Indy, like what happened to Scott Brayton, the impact will be more dangerous.

Now I know these are selective instances...

In my opinion, it is the unexpected offs that are the most dangerous. Turns themselves, especially in F1 since 1994 have been made to be very undangerous. That being said, I wouldn't want to loose it going up Eau Rouge... other dangerous corners are at some of the tighter race tracks, like Montreal and Suzuka.

[rtcoman]

Originally posted by Scudetto
Greg Moore (killed in 1997 following impact with infield concrete barrier)
Alex Zanardi (lost both legs)
Scott Brayton (killed at Indy in 1996 during practice after tire deflation at speed)
Gonzalo Rodriguez (killed during practice in 1997 at Laguna Seca Raceway after car becomes airborne).

Actually, Gonzalo Rodriguez and Greg Moore died in 1999.
Zanardi`s accident took place, of course, in 2001.

[Locai]

Originally posted by dai_ferrari


Aren't all 6 of these tracks, and perhaps all Nascar ovals dangerous because Nascar drivers don't like finishing a race with a pristine looking car? Don't they all like to have dents, scrapes, pieces missing, etc. when they finish a race? Plus, where's the manhood if you can't at least involve yourself with at least one accident on race weekend, totally smash up another car and your own, and walk away from it?

You know I've watched Nascar from time to time, even this year's Daytona. But driving around and around again, over and over for 200-250 laps is not my idea of exciting racing, sorry. Besides, they say F1 is processional?? Ever seen Nascar, they sometimes get up to 15-20 cars coming down the straight all lined up one behind another, or side by side, it sure looks like a procession to me.

You're basically just NASCAR bashing here. The question was raised about the track corners themselves, not about the drivers.

I don't view the corners at Daytona (or Talladega) as being the "most dangerous" because they are high banked superspeedways. The corners at these tracks (and at most of the cookie cutter 1.5 mile ovals) don't require much effort or skill to get through.

Anyway, we get the point - you don't like NASCAR.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by rtcoman


Actually, Gonzalo Rodriguez and Greg Moore died in 1999.
Zanardi`s accident took place, of course, in 2001.

You're right, thank you. Mea culpa.

[davioissimo]

Ummm right then first things first imagine a corner like Blanchimont with a concrete wall awaiting the driver ! that instantly makes that corner look terrifying there is far more chance in F1 of hitting a wall head on for god sake you cannot do that in ova racing its virtually impossible to hit a wall at 90º to it F1 corner would be lethal without the tyres and sand traps when was the last time you saw sand at an oval ?

[Pete Stanley]

I have a firm belief that the oval at Winchester, Indiana is the most dangerous racetrack in the world.

But that's subjective, of course.

[MONTOYASPEED]

Eau Rouge.

I can't understand why you hang out with NASCAR fans. :

[Schummy]

"some of the tighter race tracks, like Montreal and Suzuka" (?)

[Ali_G]

Originally posted by aportinga
Bottom line...

I've seen plenty of NASCAR/IndyCar wrecks and none of them looked as bad as Senna & Berger in Imola.

The danger of those accidents was the direction that the cars went into the wall - and I might add that corner is(was) flat - out.

Did you see Senna's accident. It wasn't really that bad. Fairly tame if you ask me. It was just a stray suspension wishbone that did the damage.

If you want to see sheer carnage from a crash here are some of the contenders.

1. Gilles Villeneuve - Zolder 82
2. Geff Kroznoff - Toronto 96 ? (this is the worst I've ever seen, car was literally in pieces)
3. Alex Zanardi - Lauzitzring 2001 - Whole front end torn off, most should remember this one
4. Tom Pryce - Kyalami 77 - Worst crash i've ever seen, disturbing footage IMO
5. Greg Moore - Fontana 99

Niall

[Ricardo F1]

Back to the subject - as someone said you can't compare Nascar to F1, especially in this case as the corners are banked. Makes an enormous difference.

In F1 - well I'd say any high speed corner was dangerous it all depends how you go off. Gene's crash at Silverstone this past week happened at probably one of the SAFEST high speed corners in all of F1. I'm still puzzled how on Earth in ended up where he did. The run off if you lose it IN the corner is enormous. He seemed to lose it coming out.

Eau Rouge is incredibly dangerous because of the vertical loads on the car as well as the horizontal loads the car is going through at very high speed. Blanchimont also qualifies. In theory the Indy last bank could be dangerous (what with the wall and all) but in actuality (coming back to the CART/NASCAR comparison) the car is extremely well balanced through that part of the circuit.

[nordschleife]

If I may inject some perspective into this discussion, has anyone seen "The Rally of the Incas" circa 1970 on Speed? Gravel roads in the Andes, no guardrail, Wily Coyote drops, rescue response time: don't ask, in fact why bother? Thirty years before this Juan Manuel Fangio was making a name for himself on what preceded these "roads" in a hot-rodded American sedan that wouldn't pass scrutineering at a figure-eight event today.
Ahem, thanks for your attention.
Wonder if Matlock's on?

[John B]

The recent CART fatalities demonstrate how vicious crashes can occur on any type of circuit - Krosnoff died on a street course, Rodriguez on a pure road course, and Moore on a superspeedway. The New Hampshire track has received some attention, most notably in the form of NASCAR instituting restrictor plates, for its tight angle corners where Irwin and Petty died in 2000.

[random]

There are a lot of old tracks in the US and Europe that host few (or no) major series races and are rarely (or never) shown on TV. But these tracks are still used quite heavily by car clubs and amateur racing groups.

One of these tracks undoubtedly holds the honor of having the most dangerous corner in racing.

One of these I occasionally drive on looks like something out of a 1950's "legends of motorsports" retrospective. The track has little armco and huge boulders planted in the runoff areas of very high speed corners. People have and continue to die at these tracks, albeit in lower series and without much fanfare.

These tracks are far more dangerous than anything F1, CART or Nascar races on.

[stevew]

Originally posted by Pete Stanley
I have a firm belief that the oval at Winchester, Indiana is the most dangerous racetrack in the world.

But that's subjective, of course.

I've only seen Winchester once, about 10 years ago and there wasn't a race that weekend. I have to agree that Winchester looks very dangerous. Hey, if you go "out of the park" on the backstretch, you've got all of those trees to stop you...

I won't go to a race there.

[jloehs777]

eau rouge isn't really that dangerous anymore, with the tyre war it's now easy flat in qualifying and in the race although I think some drivers still do a "confidence lift" during the race. The only danger in eau rouge now is a mechanical failure, but even then it's still only as dangerous as a mechanical failure at the end of a straight just before the braking zone, ala hakkinen at hockenheim 99

[Mr. Stay Puff]

Originally posted by aportinga
Bottom line...

I've seen plenty of NASCAR/IndyCar wrecks and none of them looked as bad as Senna & Berger in Imola.

The danger of those accidents was the direction that the cars went into the wall - and I might add that corner is(was) flat - out.

If you want a horrific accident, then look no further than Gordon Smiley's qualifying accident from 1982. Head on at around 200 mph. He was decapitated from a 90 degree angle of impact. And the Indianapolis Motor Speedway actually suspended qualifying for two hours while they repainted the walls white. And Greg Moore's crash was a very close second. I was sitting in turn four with 8mm video camera taping Smiley's crash and it wasnt pretty. As for worst corner, I would give it to Eau Rouge.

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by D. Heimgartner
I also think Maricio Gugelmins crash at Texas had the highest ever g load recorded.

A whopping negative 127 G-Forces,
It's amazing he survived...

[POLAR]

I think that Blanchimont is the scariest. Not really difficult, but soooooo fast, that any contact or mistake can be really ugly. You can try it on the PS2 and get a very vague idea of what i'm talking about.

Polar

[aportinga]

I can't understand why you hang out with NASCAR fans.

Well I'm not go to sell my house and move to an area just to hang out with F1 fans. Have you even been to the States???

[K-One]

Originally posted by palmas
It seams the most dangerous corner in F1 IS THE FIRST CORNER!

with MS...

[Mila]

Originally posted by aportinga
"Oh well your F1 drivers are too affraid to race on ovals"

I would counter this quote by pointing out that, at the first Indy GP two seaons ago, the F1 boys practiced on a wet track, as well as raced on a damp track. and they didn't pussyfoot through turn 13 (Indy turn 1).

would those oval whimps have done the same?;)

and, as Locai mentioned, the two tighter turns at Pocono are very dangerous.

[Inness]

Oval racing is by far more dangerous than F1. Anywhere you have concrete vs. tire barriers and gravel traps -the concrete will always win. F1 superstars Mario Andretti, MS and others have alluded to this in different interviews. Ovals are unforgiving -Greg Moore, Gordon Smiley, Scott Brayton, Earnhardt, Adam Petty, Clifford Allison. Mark Blundell is one of the luckiest racers ever- Brazil in the RIO 400 a few years ago. Nobody has perished in F1 in a while(Thank GOD), not the case in ovals.

[catseye_55]

Watkins Glen - the whole track
Laguna Seca - turns 1&2: corkscrew
Sears Point - uphill 'S"
Road Atlanta- last corner before "bump" in straight where Mercedes became "Air Mercedes"
several times

[JDeRosa]

Originally posted by aportinga


Well I'm not go to sell my house and move to an area just to hang out with F1 fans. Have you even been to the States???

Move to the UK, anywhere near the M40 motorway and you'll be just a stone's throw away from most of the teams.