145 replies to this topic

[RedFever]

2 drivers have been head, shoulders and maybe more above the rest in wet conditions:

Gilles Villeneuve and Ayrton Senna.

Many others have shined, Schumacher, Alesi, etc, but I don't think anyone comes closer to GV and AS.

The worst drivers in wet conditions among top drivers I can remember are: Alain Prost, Niki Lauda and jacques Villeneuve (this last one could improve ebing so young)

[magnum]

Was it at the Glen when Gilles went out and set a time 8 seconds faster than the entire field including Scheckter? I seem to be having a problem with history today so ... but I'm sure it was at the Glen(!?)

I'm not too sure about Lauda being so bad in the wet - Fuji was an exception with many extenuating circumstances.

[goGoGene]

The safty car ;)

[Peeko]

Magnum, it was the Glen in 79, but the gap was 11 seconds .

Best wet weather drivers GV, AS, MS, with honourable mention to Jean Alesi, and Ralf.

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[RedFever]

no, magnum, trust me, Lauda, at least after his Neurburgring crash, was not great under wet. Most times he lost positions, sometimes he hang in there, but from being a top driver on dry, he would plummet to complete average in wet

[RedFever]

ah, and yes, it was Watkins Glen 1979 when Gilles gave 11 seconds to everyone else!!!

[Diffuser]

Apart from that lap at Watkins Glen did Gilles have any other amazing wet weather performances? In my opinion is Gilles Villeneuve one of the most overrated drivers ever (sorry if I offended someone).

[Peeko]

You tell that to Lauda, Prost, Laffitte, Mansell, Arnoux, Jones, Schekter, etc...

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Ron Dennis is a Wuss

[RedFever]

Diffuser, you just made a fool out of yourself. Of course you never saw Gilles racing, but yet feel an incontrollable need to flap your lips.

I watched 66 out of 67 of Gilles races, several live.

Has he done anything other than that lap in the wet?

First, maybe you don't realize what 11 SECONDS are in f1, particularly when you leave behind WCs like Lauda and SCheckter!!!

Second, of course you didn't see Montreal 81, when Gilles after a contact had a damaged front wing and eventually lost it but managed to arrive third under torrential rain and with the less stable car of the year. When asked how he drove with the front wing bent over the cockpit, he replied: "turning right was easy, because I could see the ground on my right. Turning left, well, I still looked on my right and checked the trails left by the cars that had passed before me, so I knew when to turn. Then the wing flew off, so I had no more problems seeing"

Besides these, pretty much any time it rained, no matter where Gilles was, he immediately started gaining position after position, clearly the fastest driver in the wet until a certain Ayrton Senna appeared a few years later.

Judging someone you never saw racing only makes you look very foolish. Don't.

[cjs f1]

Ayrton Senna, Jacky Ickx and Pedro Rodriguez were the best drivers in the wet.

Other excellent wet-weather drivers: Jackie Stewart, G. Villenueve, Michael Schumacher, and a few others I can't think of at the moment.

[John B]

I remember the 1981 Canada race when GV managed a podium in the rain with half the front wing blocking the cockpit and the car sideways every corner.

Question: Did Senna ever lose a wet Grand Prix that he finished running on the track? (not counting Monaco 1984)

[RedFever]

you can't count monaco 84 because they shortned it to allow Prost to win.....

[Nuno]

I have watched every single F-1 race since the beginning of the 1970 season and, in my humble opinion the two best drivers in the wet I ever saw were Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher . I can't say honestly which one was the best in this matter .

[Eric McLoughlin]

Since the question did ask who was the best wet weather driver EVER, surely Rudolph Caracciola must be included too. He was not called "Regenmeister" (Rainmaster) for nothing.

Motor racing didn't begin sometime around 1991 you know.

[Yelnats]

Jackie Ickx also shared the "Reigenmeister" title for a while. His stirring performances in the rain attracted much favourable comment early in his carreer.

[The RedBaron]

Well they call Schuey that now......remember
Barcleona 1996

[vroom-vroom]

Jacky Ickx was always stunning in the rain. He was the "rainmaster" of the seventies. Another often overlooked rainmaster was Jean-Pierre Beltoise whose light touch and buttersmooth flowing style were an asset in the rain. He beat Jacky Ickx under the rain at Monaco, no less. Curiously, Jacky Ickx was also the race director during that fateful (and wet) Monaco GP when the race was shortened to let Prost win from a charging Senna in a Toleman.

[Alfisti]

All i can remember is that race in Spaina few years back where MS was on another level alltogether.

Alesi is over rated..... he's never done anything like that.

[Daemon]

Schumacher over both Senna and Alesi. Senna was clearly above the rest by a mile in his day, but never looked as under control and impressive as Schuey does, when he pulls out consistently 1-3 seconds a lap, a la Spain '96 and Spa '98.

Also, little Schummi does ok and although before my time, I've also heard Jackie Stewart was superb on a damp to drying track, belting out impossible lap times, while the rest of the pack treaded around cautiously...

[selena]

Spot on, Nuno. The best drivers in wet conditions are definitely Senna and Michael Schumacher. Others worth mentioning are Jean Alesi and Ralf Schumacher. Hopefully, we can see more wet-weather skills this weekend.

[Samurai]

Senna and Alesi.

A race that also impressed me was Damon Hill at Suzuka.

[magnum]

Daemon, uhm, Senna never pulled away at over 3 seconds a lap in the wet? I don't recall one wet race where Senna didn't do exactly that.

[Don Capps]

As Eric pointed out, THE BEST EVER surely was from surely this bunch (in no particular order, only as I thought of them):

Rudi Caracciola
Tazio Nuvolari
Bernd Rosemeyer
Juan Fangio
Stirling Moss
Jim Clark
Jackie Stewart

Also, as Eric once again pointed, there is quite a bit of history to Grand Prix ("F1" ) before this era of racing. The lack of rain tires worthy of the name, incredible track surfaces - most of the surface of the Bremgarten circuit was cobblestones! - and longer races in cars that had to be driven by the driver, not "optimized" by some electronics geek. Consider the skill needed to properly shift a car in the rain on a cobblestone surface that has skinny little tires (you get wheelspin in 4th at 220 kmph when it's dry) and about 550+ bhp at your foot....

Sorry, but as challenging (and it is challenging) as a wet race is today, it doesn't even come close to what Caracciola and Rosemeyer and others had to contend with.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 04-21-2000).]

[Daemon]

You are of course right magnum, but I never really saw that much of Senna's early races, which is where people tell me he had his best wet weather drives. So my vote goes for Schummi, I've seen each race hes been in and nothing was more captivating to watch than THAT race at Spa '98 until he and Mr Cubehead had their disagreement...

[champion]

Noway Jim Richards is the rain man no one will ever out do Jimmy all the others are lossers bar Ayrton Senna...

[Steve]

I've never seen Gilles race, but if he opened an 11 second advantage in one lap then I think that just about says it all. That would've been entertaining to say the least.
Daemon, if you never saw any of Senna's earlier wet races then surely you saw Donnington 93? If you haven't seen it, I suggest you do! Arguably his best, but a case can be made for Portugal 85 too, his first win. Imagine taking your first ever win in the way Senna took it. Those who were there that day said the conditions were worse than Monaco 84, but one person completely anhilated the opposition.
Schumi's best ever performance IMO was Spain 96, he was just awesome!
Having said all that, Don Capp's post puts everything in perspective. The drivers of today couldn't compete with what the "old" guys in the 30's-50's had to put up with.

[Daemon]

na you got it wrong champion. Jimmy Richards is ok, but Garth Tander is the man now. Hey does Richo even still race???

[Vicster]

Jackie Stewart at the 'ring back in the late '60s. Something like a 50 second lead by the first lap??

Gilles Villeneuve in '81 at Montreal in the pouring rain with the front nose blocking his view and then completely falling off.

Senna's first win, in the rain, followed by his almost win at Monaco when the race was stopped.

[mtl'78]

The best part of Montreal '81 was that the nose was pointing straight up, from having run into the back of someone. His front view completely bloked, he could only look at the road BELOW the wing. Fearing that the marshals would black flag him (they would have NEVER black flagged Gilles in MTL!) he started to DELIBERATLY run hard into the kerbs and retaining wall to knock it loose!!!! Eventuall it came loose and he ducked as it rolled over his head. He finished the race 3rd with the front of the car a total disaster, metal and wires hanging out...

[HP]

Altough Gilles was awesome with his broken wing stunt, keep in perspective that first he bumped into someone, which isn't that great at all. And in rain a broken front wing doesn't matter much.

What really matters is your eye's ability.
I believe that racing in rain is more of a visibility thing combined with quick reflexes. I should know, it always amazes me that with my 900cc motorcycle I'm faster on the normal road than almost any car when it rain's. Even in turn's! But rain doesn't disturb me much.

And those F1 "rainmasters" certainly have good eyes too. Those who don't, well to them anything can happen, as I have seen in F1 and on the road.

[RedFever]

Mtl'78, the wing actually rolled under Gilles Ferrari, causing him to get sideways just when approaching the u turn before the long straight, but as with great skill Gilles regained composure of the car, turned and zoomed away!!!

[MichaelL]

Nuno,I share your view.

Originally posted by Nuno:
I have watched every single F-1 race since the beginning of the 1970 season and, in my humble opinion the two best drivers in the wet I ever saw were Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher . I can't say honestly which one was the best in this matter .

[Uncle Dave]

Wet weather masters (in no particular order):

Ayrton Senna
Gilles Villeneuve
Jackie Stewart
Jim CLark
Niki Lauda
Michael Schumacher
Jean Alesi
Johnny Herbert
Rubens Barrichello
Ralf Schumacher
Jonathon Palmer
Nigel Mansell
Ronnie Peterson
Mario Andretti

[AlesiGOD]

Ayrton,Schumi,Jean,Rubinho and Jan

[Fast One]

You guys have the modern ones covered, but from the early 3 liter era, no one has mentioned John Surtees legendary drive at Spa in '66, when most of the fiels, including alleged rainmasters like Jackie Stewart, never made it through the first lap. Racing at Spa (the real one)was no joke. Racing at Spa in the rain was in deadly earnest. Another fine drive in that race came from Jochen Rindt, who I normally have little use for, who came in second. Check out the movie Grand Prix to see how bad it was.

Another great drive was by Jack Brabham in near-monsoon conditions at Mosport in '67. Third, I would mention Jacky Ickx, who beat Surtees in the rain at Rouen in '68, when Surtees' teammate was killed.

Great rainmasters all.

[Fast One]

Originally posted by Fast One:
You guys have the modern ones covered, but from the early 3 liter era, no one has mentioned John Surtees legendary drive at Spa in '66, when most of the field, including alleged rainmasters like Jackie Stewart, never made it through the first lap. Racing at Spa (the real one)was no joke. Racing at Spa in the rain was in deadly earnest. Another fine drive in that race came from Jochen Rindt, who I normally have little use for, who came in second. Check out the movie Grand Prix to see how bad it was.

Another great drive was by Jack Brabham in near-monsoon conditions at Mosport in '67.

Third, I would mention Jacky Ickx, who beat Surtees in the rain at Rouen in '68, when Surtees' teammate was killed.

Great rainmasters all.

[Fast One]

Don't know what happened there. I was just trying to edit a typo.???

[Todd]

1)2'01.437
2)2'11.029
9.592 seconds from Gilles to Jody in the 1st qualifying session at Watkins Glen 1979. Don't forget that several drivers, including HJ Stuck, sat out 1st round qualifying, as the conditions couldn't get worse. The other drivers with confidence in their wet weather driving waited for the next session. After all, if it couldn't get worse, their time would be the same or better. Why risk the car unnecessarily when there would be another session? Only Ferrari had the budget to really risk cars like that in 1979.

Michael Schumacher's performance in Spain is the single most impressive wet drive I've seen in the last 24 years. He took the lead on lap 11 and pulled out 73 seconds in the next 23 laps until his cracked exhaust header threatened to end his ride and he had to back off. Simply mesmerizing. I never saw Senna do that without traction control.

[The Sleeper]

Best in the wet I've seen or read about:

Bernd Rosemeyer
Jackie Ickx
Gilles Villeneuve
Ayrton Senna
Michael Schumacher

Best wetweathermen in the current field:
Michael Schumacher
Heinz-Harald Frentzen
Jean Alesi
Rubens Barrichello

[SpaRCo]

Todd,that shuey drive in spain was great but u like most people tend to forget that shuey was on a wet weather setup unlike most of the field,so his performance was eggagerated by that.If the other drivers had wet setups he wouldnt of won by that much.

Most of sennas wet wins were when everyone was on wet weather setups as well.

And you say senna never pulled out that much in his races....without traction control

I doubt they had traction control in 85 when senna blew off some of the greatest F1 drivers of the last 20 years buy 1.09min at portugal......

[Rogue]

That may be the case Sparco, but he has repeated that performance (at least to quite a close degree) on a few other occasions at least, so I think it is fair to say that perhaps a reasonable portion of the talent displayed that day was his - not to mention the fact that one of the marks of a great driver in any weather or situation is to accurately judge the conditions around them to the greatest possible benefit.

Regards,



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Rogue
f-1@ihug.com.au

[Bob Nomates]

I don't think that traction control had been invented in 85, but it was definatley around in 96.

[Zepeteus]

Saw last night 'Dr. Pepper Swamp Classic' on Eurosport. Now that was really wet driving! Don't know though if the strange vehicles were cars or boats or both.

[BuzzingHornet]

Damon Hill might not be the greatest ever, but he is arguably one of the two or three best wet weather drivers of the last decade in F1

Spa 1998, Suzuka 1994, Interlagos 1996, Imola 1995 were all good drives

Of the drivers I know about, I would say Senna, Schumacher, Hill, Mansell, Alesi


[This message has been edited by BuzzingHornet (edited 05-03-2000).]

[Buzzin]

DAMON??
Surely thats one name that should never be mentioned in the same breath as those other greats!!

[Harald]

Sorry, RedFever. I just can't go there with you on this one.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen's memorable shootdown of Dan Quayle, I saw the drivers you named. In that sense, I sort of 'knew' them and, with the exception of Ayrton, I wouldn't put Gilles in Michael's class. (Interestingly, going by what he has said about driving in the wet, apparently neither does Gilles' own son.)

I'll stop there, though, because I respect your opinions, and ask which specific races you saw Gilles in that led you to your ranking; and why you don't rank Michael higher.

For what it is worth - right now, about 4 cents in Colombian money - I would say

• Michael Schumacher
• Ayrton Senna
• Jackie Stewart (he has to go somewhere in the - well, my - Top 5 just for that matchless drive in the rain and fog at the (old, genuine, 14 kmslap) Nürburgring, if for no other drive in the wet)
• Sir (!;) ) Stirling Moss, KBE
• Jacky Ickx
• Sleeper's post here just jogged my memory: Bernd Rosemeyer was widely reputed - and even acknowledged by Nuvolari himself - to be the 'Regenmeister' of the interwar grand prix era (and, no: I did not see him in person. . . )

What do you think?

Quick! Answer before I have another Long Post attack and probably crash the entire web site. . .

Happy Knew Year.
;) And let's you and I get a lunch schedule together for Luca di and Gianni Agnelli, with Fisichella, Trulli and Paunchy Juancho in the top three time slots.;)

The Faithless Elector (until Nov. 2004 anyway)
Shrub Nursery Services-East (formerly Washington DC)[p][Edited by Harald on 01-05-2001]

[Richard Jenkins]

Others which haven't been mentioned, Stefan Bellof & Masahiro Hasemi, who didn't get the fastest lap in '76 as it turns out but was still bloody quick in the wet. Patrick Depailler wasn't too bad either.

[RedFever]

Harald -

Gilles won his first and second GPs, Canada 1978 and South Africa 79 with wet races. Both races were not entirely wet, but Gilles gained his advantage, particularly in SA while it rained.

Canada 1981 is another example, USA 79 another. In 1980 and 1981 when Ferrari had dog cars, it was a well known fact among Ferrari fans that the only good chances for a good result were wet conditions, where Gilles shined above everyone else at the time. Don't forget his background....as Gilles himself explained, he emerged from racing on ice back in Canada. He said that taught him to eventually control also a car sideways and to be used to follow others without visibility (imagine the ice and snow those guys go through, as opposed to rain).

Gilles was excellent under wet and Jody, who had also gone out in US 79 for the first session told this story (please remember this was the WDC!!!! "I went out and the circuit was flooded, there were puddles everywhere. I pushed very hard eventually and on my final lap I scared myself shitless. Coming back into the pits I was satisfied and I thought 'no way anyone can go faster than that, I was at the limit the whole time'. You can imagine my surprise when I read the times and found out that Gilles was 11 seconds faster than me". Says it all........

[DangerMouse]

BnH, true I'm purplexed that Ralf Schumi has had so many nominations in this thread, Button is quicker than Ralf in the wet. And Damon was the only driver about to match (and sometimes beat) Michael in the wet since Senna.

Clark and Moss were exceptional as was GV.

Button will become the next rain master.

[RedFever]

Ralf did exceptionally well in GP of Europe in 1999, he was all over the 2 much more powerful McLarens and passed one on the straight...............too bad his rear tire exploded, he deserved to win that race.