65 replies to this topic

[nmansellfan]

Im a child of the 80's. So my favourite F1 memories have been of the turbo era. Im also a sucker for facts and figures. But so far one has eluded me; does anyone know what the most powerful turbo car between '77 and '88 was?
I've read many accounts of people saying the BMW in the back of the Brabham BT53 had more than 1400 BHP for qualifying, but no one could say for sure because the Bavaria's dyno only went up to 1400 anyway. I have also heard that the Renault that powered Senna and Dumfies's Lotuses in '86 was shockingly powerful, but again no one could say for sure. My personal opinion is that the BMW used by Benetton in the same year was the most powerful, surely it was after three years of development following its drivers championship win in '83? Did anything make over 1500 for qualifying? And what was the most powerful for a race? If anyone could quote some actual figures, I would really appreciate it.

Ps apologies if this has been asked before, i only joined the forum 'bout 1/2 an hour ago.

Thanks

[Rainer Nyberg]

I am not sure if anyone really knows, I think BMW estimated 1300hp at some point

The estimate was due to the fact that their dyno could not handle more than 1000hp.

[AndreasF1]

I read in an interview with Berger once where he said that the BMW engine of his 1986 Benetton was the engine with the most HP ever built. In qualifying he mentioned 1600hp. Obviously it was a very strong engine as the Benetton handeled like a dog yet he was extremley fast in a straight line speed at Monza and Hockenheim at the former even breaking the F1 speed record for a short period. Even hist Teammate Fabi who has since been swallowed by F1 history took pole on the superfast Oesterreich Ring that year.

[Breadmaster]

I remember an article in Motorsport magazine (think it was jan 2001 coverstory) about turbos that quoted over 1300hp in qual and just 800 odd for the race...???? unfortunately I've since lost my copy.....anyone?

[DOHC]

I remember BMW quoting the estimate 1300, as Rainer mentions. But at that output the engine was under a lot of stress. IIRC, BMW built these engines with used blocks from road cars, as only these had "settled;" the material had less residual stress and could take greater mechanical and thermal stress without failing.

In F1 Racing, April 2001, Peter Warr from Team Lotus mentions the huge output of the Renault engine in the 1986 Lotus 98T. He quotes the highest charging pressure reading as "5.7 bar, which equated to between 1250 and 1275bhp, though there were rumours that the four-cylinder BMW was getting up over 1300 in the same [qualifying] trim."

If you look at the way the 98T and the B186 had their rear wings set up, you also see that these wings and cars must have had a rather high drag. To make such settings for downforce useful, I'm sure that they had a few bhp to spare.

[dmj]

Slightly OT, during their CanAm dominance Porsche tested a turbocharged flat 16, "just in case". Of course, they were unbeatable even with lesser flat 12s so that engine was never raced, AFAIK. But its power output was estimated to be around 1700 BHP.

[Rainer Nyberg]

I read stories about BMW leaving their blocks outdoors to rust for some time before they used them to build the F1-motors, because that extracted the residual stress.

[Bozothenutter]

not only leave them outside, but even encourage ppl to pee on them........

[GunStar]

What BMW did was take old engines from used 2002s, nominally with about 80,000km and build those into their turbo engines. They found that the heat cycles used in normal use would lower the stress levels of the block, and increase the thermal tolerances. Later, when BMW started to build fresh blocks, they ran them through a low temp heating cycle regimen to get the same properties. Word has it that Gordon Murrey used a stick to put a extra stess member in the sand mold when they kept blowing the motors.

And when the Turbo flat-12 that Porsche put in the 917-30k did over 400kph average speed at Talidega, they felt they had no need for the 1700bhp flat-16.

Now, just open up the rules again for unlimited boost, multi-turbo systems with ground effects, slicks, manual trannies........................

[cheesy poofs]

Mmmmm...
One can only imagine those engines in todays cars

[dmj]

What BMW did was take old engines from used 2002s, nominally with about 80,000km and build those into their turbo engines.

Shouldn't it be 1502 or 315 engines, because of capacity?

[Treeface]

OT as well. The pushrod "stock" 209 cid that Mercedes/Ilmore built for Penske for Indy only are another turbo monster and a fine example of unintended rulebook consequences.

[Jeroen Brink]

Originally posted by Breadmaster
I remember an article in Motorsport magazine (think it was jan 2001 coverstory) about turbos that quoted over 1300hp in qual and just 800 odd for the race...???? unfortunately I've since lost my copy.....anyone?

They worked with qualifying engines at some point. These only lastet a good stint. You really saw those coming (due to the atypical smoke, noise).

Basically a scary situation when other drivers were on a slow lap and not paying sufficient attention to their rear view mirrors.

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by Jeroen Brink
Basically a scary situation when other drivers were on a slow lap and not paying sufficient attention to their rear view mirrors.

We all know what this can lead to...

RIP Gilles - May 8th 1982

Twenty years...where did the time go?

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by dmj
Shouldn't it be 1502 or 315 engines, because of capacity?

Don't have the bore figure for the BMW turbo nearby now, but IIRC the engine was short-stroked. The 2002 had a 89 mm bore.

[GunStar]

BMW took the motors, destroked them, increased the revs, kicked on a turbo and let it wail. They got the idea from their IMSA GT motors they were building.

Gotta love the old days of qualifying engines. Life expectancy, 3 laps. Warm up, Hot, and Cool down. Junk afterwards.

[Frank de Jong]

The bore of the BMW turbo engine was 89,2 mm, combined with a stroke of 60 mm. So yes, a 2002 block would do.

[dmj]

I stand corrected...

[Uwe]

Originally posted by Breadmaster

We all know what this can lead to...

RIP Gilles - May 8th 1982

AFAIK GV's death is the wrong example. Had Jochen Mass not looked into his mirrors he may not have tried to give way to Gilles by swerving to the other side - with all the sad consequences.

Uwe

[FEV]

Patrick Tambay in a TV show where he was doing comments of of on-board cameras sequences in F1s talked about "way over 1200 HP in qualifying trim". And that was, IIRC, about his 1984 Renault...

[Doug Nye]

The highest kind of believable figure that I recall hearing - without trawling through reams of notes and team reports etc to check - was 1340bhp from one of BMW's finest, and that was merely extrapolated by Paul Rosche, the chief engineer, by extending the power curve beyond the final point at which they could measure it, and calculating from the lap times returned and gear-chart speeds etc.

At Monza Nelson Piquet's Brabham-BMW ran with direct water sprays onto the intercooler matrices, the turbo wastegate blanked off, the merest fuel load and Nelson freshly insulted and angry beyond words, with steam coming out of his ears. Then with great ceremony Parl Rosche would summon forward one of his engine fitters who would open a small padded box, from which he would take the ultimate engine management chip. Paul announced to Gordon Murray that "It is time to use the Hitler Prom" - the chip was installed, Piquet told that he was incapable of driving his way out of a paper bag, and away he went into final qualifying, to do 220mph across the timing line on acceleration away from the 180-degree Parabolica...

DCN

[david_martin]

I recall reading an interview with Rosche where he estimated that Nelson had a shade under 6 bar absolute boost at his disposal that day

[dmj]

"Hitler Prom" story is one of my favorites, since it was in Motorsport some time ago... Did they use it just in that occasion?

[AndreasNystrom]

I love the Turbo-era too!. Ive made a 3d-model of my favourite turbo-era car, the Brabham BT52
(yeah, i know thats now Piquets helmet,, its MS :/ )

http://w1.131.telia....579/bt52-40.jpg
http://w1.131.telia....579/bt52-39.jpg

I've read that it produced likely 1500hp, but the dyno only went up to 1200hp. So, maybe..

I wonder how the turbo-lag was?, i know that Ferrari used some "unburned" fuel, or whatever to rotate the turbo, when it wasnt on high throttle. But i dont know how well it worked.

[bobbo]

QUOTE:

"I recall reading an interview with Rosche where he estimated that Nelson had a shade under 6 bar absolute boost at his disposal that day "

--David_Martin

David:

Was that a shade under 6 bars for the car or for Nelson??

Bobbo

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The highest kind of believable figure that I recall hearing - without trawling through reams of notes and team reports etc to check - was 1340bhp from one of BMW's finest, and that was merely extrapolated by Paul Rosche, the chief engineer, by extending the power curve beyond the final point at which they could measure it, and calculating from the lap times returned and gear-chart speeds etc.

At Monza Nelson Piquet's Brabham-BMW ran with direct water sprays onto the intercooler matrices, the turbo wastegate blanked off, the merest fuel load and Nelson freshly insulted and angry beyond words, with steam coming out of his ears. Then with great ceremony Parl Rosche would summon forward one of his engine fitters who would open a small padded box, from which he would take the ultimate engine management chip. Paul announced to Gordon Murray that "It is time to use the Hitler Prom" - the chip was installed, Piquet told that he was incapable of driving his way out of a paper bag, and away he went into final qualifying, to do 220mph across the timing line on acceleration away from the 180-degree Parabolica...

DCN

Doug,
great story! I presume it's from 1984. Strange thing how Piquet outqualified Prost's supposedly much less powerful (in qualifying trim) McLaren Porsche by only 0.087 secs...

Hrvoje

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by Uwe

AFAIK GV's death is the wrong example. Had Jochen Mass not looked into his mirrors he may not have tried to give way to Gilles by swerving to the other side - with all the sad consequences.

Uwe

you are right, i got a bit carried away what with the 20 year anniv. and all....

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
The highest kind of believable figure that I recall hearing - without trawling through reams of notes and team reports etc to check - was 1340bhp from one of BMW's finest, and that was merely extrapolated by Paul Rosche, the chief engineer, by extending the power curve beyond the final point at which they could measure it, and calculating from the lap times returned and gear-chart speeds etc.

At Monza Nelson Piquet's Brabham-BMW ran with direct water sprays onto the intercooler matrices, the turbo wastegate blanked off, the merest fuel load and Nelson freshly insulted and angry beyond words, with steam coming out of his ears. Then with great ceremony Parl Rosche would summon forward one of his engine fitters who would open a small padded box, from which he would take the ultimate engine management chip. Paul announced to Gordon Murray that "It is time to use the Hitler Prom" - the chip was installed, Piquet told that he was incapable of driving his way out of a paper bag, and away he went into final qualifying, to do 220mph across the timing line on acceleration away from the 180-degree Parabolica...

DCN

I love this story!

fantastic....does anyone have a more detailed version for perusal?

[mat1]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Paul announced to Gordon Murray that "It is time to use the Hitler Prom" - the chip was installed,

DCN

Nice story.

But what does "Prom" mean in this context?

mat1

[david_martin]

P rogammble R ead O nly M emory - the ROM chip onto which the ECU parameters are stored (recalling that there were no in-situ programmable engine ECU in 1984 as there are today).

[mat1]

Originally posted by david_martin
P rogammble R ead O nly M emory - the ROM chip onto which the ECU parameters are stored (recalling that there were no in-situ programmable engine ECU in 1984 as there are today).

Of course. thanks, david.

mat1

[nmansellfan]

Doug, first i gotta say that its a pleasure having you reply to my thread. Secondly, thats one of the best stories i have ever read about Grand Prix racing, the 'Hitler Prom'.

I've read an account of Thierry Boutsen explaining that wheelspin in sixth gear was possible coming out of the Ascari chicane at Monza in his Arrows-BMW, and that in Monaco qualifying in '86 Nelson touched 197 mph coming out of the tunnel. At Monaco! I think todays cars struggle to hit 180 at that point.

Just to ask another question to everyone, AndreasF1 said that Berger broke the F1 speed record with his Benetton-BMW for a short while. What was it then and what is it now? You really hear quotes about top speeds in grand prix racing, but i have read that Arnoux and Piquet (Him again!) touched nearly 230 mph at Paul Ricard in '83 during qualifying. Hmmm, the modern era just isnt as good im afraid...

PS thanks for everyones replies, this is a really great forum.

[DOHC]

Didn't Montoya hit 309 kph at the tunnel exit last year? IIRC that was the figure mentioned. That's 192 mph, not a far cry from 197...

[Duck]

DMJ, I believe you're spot-on re the Porsche 917 Can Am rigs spooling upwards of 1700 bhp. I believe that figure was was quite accurate re the 917 Mark Donohue drove at Talladega when he broke the closed-course speed record. Actually I believe it was Porsche's ability to create TONS of grunt which inevitably ended McLaren's domination of the series.

[GunStar]

Yep, the grunt killed Can-Am. McLaren's attempt at a 9.3L V-8 didn't work, and they just couldn't hack it. Even with a lighter and cleaner car, you just can't beat a deficiency of 300HP. Moving chicane in the corners and Flash Gordon on the straights. Only chance was out of the turn because they were still figuring out turbo lag and they weren't compensating.

Whatever Ron Denis said about the Porsche engine during qualifying was B.S. Probably only running about a 100 HP less, and with no wing. Remember, drag hurts on the straights and BMW wasn't the greatest aerodynamically.

[LCA]

This is fascinating stuff. I was a bit too young to catch F1 in the 80's but I am fascinated to learn the incredible amounts of HP the turbos produced. Sadly, my F1 consciousness really begins with the NA cars of the 90's.

I am particularly interested in Mansell and his 1986 Williams-Honda - any ideas to how much HP that beauty produced?

While I'm here, and I apologize for being a little off-topic, are there any books or online resources that give a history of Honda racing, particularly in F1? I am a bit of a Honda fan and would like to learn more.

-Lane

[slipstream]

I remember an interview with Patrick Head talking about the Williams Honda V-6 Turbo in 1986. He said that the Williams had over 1200 HP for qualiying and they could spin the Wheels in 6th Gear He also said that after a qualiying run with 1200 hp the Drivers were acting like they were high on cocaine as they were shaking with excitment and fear. I also remember hearing that Ayrton Senna hit over 190 mph in Monaco in his Lotus Renault during a qualiying run with 1400 HP

[BRG]

Of course all this horse-power stuff depends rather on how big your horses are. Being of a sceptical turn of mind, I suspect that the F1 pits in the 1980s had some herds of Shetland ponies in them...

Over-optimistic and inflated HP figures have always been common in motor-sport. It is partly a macho thing ("I've got a bigger one than you") and partly engine builders talking up their products. I recall that some years back a friend of mine had a 2-litre Ford Pinto rally engine that his rolling-road man recorded at some 180bhp and reckoned was the most powerful that he had seen. But at the time, a lot of others were claiming 200-220bhp from similar units. Maybe their engine builders were keen to sell more engines?

Perversely, in rallying the imposition by the FIA of the 300bhp limit and the 34mm intake restrictor that ended the Group B era means that all the WRC teams claim only a 300bhp output, year after year. Yet they also often report power gains from new management systems, better intake tracts and turbo set-ups, etc etc. This suggests that they are really pushing out 350-400bhp but they dare not admit it. And as long as they don't, the FIA simply turns a blind eye. A case of those 300 horses growing a bit bigger each year, perhaps?

[GunStar]

Ah, but you can have a thousand ponies on tap, but if you can't get it to the ground....
Remember, the F1 boys back then could only extrapolate how many horses they had.

Where are they quoting the power from¿ Flywheel of tires¿

In WRC, as long as everybody looks equal, why bother with arcane regs. The fights go down to the wire often. They don't have such dominance as in F1. And power doesn't always have to be just HP, it could be making the power curve much smoother, increasing fuel efficiency, dropping a little lag time, whatever.

[LCA]

Originally posted by slipstream
the Drivers were acting like they were high on cocaine as they were shaking with excitment

Well that is certainly appropriate for the 80's, huh? I wonder how many drivers actually were high on cocaine?

[RDV]

...had the pleasure to be taken around Hockenheim in a 917-10 CanAm , most fun I have had out of a bed! compares only to a ride I had in a Mirage 2000 , & can well believe 1700 horses of any size, outstanding! it could smoke those 22" tyres in 5th despite pulling the biggest wing I have ever seen on a racing car....

[GunStar]

But it only had about 1000-1100HP. It wasn't even a dash 30.

[RDV]

...sorry GunStar just checked my files and it was Willy Kauhsens Interserie 917-30 and slightly down from the Penske CanAm as less $$ availiable in Europe...

[Frank de Jong]

Let me first say that I'll envy anyone who has been driven in ANY Porsche 917, let alone a 917/10.
As far as I know, the 917/30 has only been raced in the States by Penske. In Europe, some lookalikes popped up (like Elford's 1973 works car, 917/30 body and 917/10 engine). In 1974, engine size was restricted for the interserie at 4.5 litres (in view of the oil crisis ), including Müller's Martini 917/30 lookalike. In 1975, this ban was lifted, and 4.9 engines were used. As far as I know, a 5.4 turbocharged engine was never used in Europe.

[LCA]

Originally posted by slipstream
I remember an interview with Patrick Head talking about the Williams Honda V-6 Turbo in 1986. He said that the Williams had over 1200 HP for qualiying and they could spin the Wheels in 6th Gear He also said that after a qualiying run with 1200 hp the Drivers were acting like they were high on cocaine as they were shaking with excitment and fear. I also remember hearing that Ayrton Senna hit over 190 mph in Monaco in his Lotus Renault during a qualiying run with 1400 HP

Just giving a read through Mansell's autobiography and he puts the HP figures for the 1986 Williams Honda in the 900HP range. He made no distinction between qualifying and race engines but...

This is in agreement with another source that I read suggesting the same HP range - sorry, can't recall the other source.

[S8 Booster]

Do not know which one that were the most powerful but I know quite precisely about the 1.5 liter V6 Honda motor in the late ´80s from an interview (after the turbo era ended) that the engine (at not restricted boost) produced 1000 hp in race (later 770/race with restricted boost) and that the engine had a development potential of 1500 hp in race. This info was available from teh chief enginer of Honda in an interview in Auto Motor & Sport in the ´90s.

All the data & technical information of their Turbo & natural aspirated V12/V10 engines up to 1992? were available in their own book "10 years of continous challenge" which I once borrowed but never got hold of.

This book appeared to be a complete manual in F1 engine design. Wonder why they gave all that away?

The pneumatic valve train system of the NA Honda V12s were later sold to Ferrari through initiative of Gerard Berger (Then at Ferrari) after Honda pulled out to improve the reliability of the Ferrari engines. Surprise?

[GillesVilleneuve]

I had the official FIA post qualifying and race results from the 1986 Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide(which I have misplaced ), but I do recall they had speed trap times.

The speed trap times were taken at the fastest point on the circuit, the end of Brabham Straight and the top speed was 326km/hr. I also have speed trap times from 1993 at the same point and Damon Hill's Williams Renault top the sheets at 296km/hr, a 30km/hr difference from 1986.

[GunStar]

Semi off topic, but in 87 and 88, one of the teams was running so much boost, they got past the 4bar restriction. Can't remember which one. That tells you they had lots o power on tap. Once they got it to the ground, then came the speed , LSD, cocaine....

[LCA]

Mansell also mentions he hit 196mph coming out of the tunnel at Monaco in the 1986 Williams-Honda.

[biercemountain]

What I find amazing is that todays normally aspirated three litre engines are steadily approaching the same HP figures as some of the turbo engines.

I haven't looked at any comparable laps times but I would be willing to bet that this years Ferrari would beat even the Brabham with all its vaunted horse power. Handling and drivability seems to be just as important as brute power.