31 replies to this topic

[Ross Stonefeld]

Anyone have photos of the Camel cars/driver suits at the non-tobacco events? Im interested in how they change the logos and type face. Ive been going through Forix photo galleries of years with Camel signage, but Idont know what races were non-tobacco back then and there's *a lot* of photos to go through on my overtaxed little modem

[ensign14]

British, French and German GPs were generally tobacco free in the late 80s. Seem to remember they had 'LOTUS' in the same typeface (although not on the Benettons). Or the letters would be filled in so they looked like blocks. I think they got away with the camel silhouette.

The best 'disguise' was Zakspeed's 'East' instead of 'West'.

[Geza Sury]

Tobacco advertising was allowed in France up until 1993. In Britain and Germany the Camel Lotus Honda cars indeed sported the word 'Lotus' instead of Camel. To see Ayrton Senna's car in the 1987 British GP just click here.

1988 was a different story. Team Lotus had painted the name of the team's other main sponsor (Courtaulds) instead of Camel onto the car. (I do have a couple of pictures of Piquet's car, but unfortunately, I can't post it.) From 1989 onwards at Lotus the Camel letters were replaced simply by the blue Camel logo itself where tobacco advertising was forbidden.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Here is Piquet at Silverstone during '89 with only the logo without lettering.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Odd that it was allowed in that way. A logo is just as much part of a brand as the lettering. I wonder if current tobacco regs would allow that.

I too enjoyed the "east" Zakspeeds, wonder why the Mclarens didnt go that route, though maybe the rules dont allow that anymore

[No27]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I too enjoyed the "east" Zakspeeds, wonder why the Mclarens didnt go that route, though maybe the rules dont allow that anymore

I Think the rules allow, because the of the "Mika" and "David" branded cars of previous seasons.
It seems to be enough to put in a different word. Perhaps they don't use East because they think the driversnames-solution is more sympatico.

[pc13]

I wonder why they didn't simply add some other products names, like "Marlboro Jeans" or "Camel Trophy".

Strangely, in the mid 90's, Portuguese drivers who raced in German F3 got away with carrying "SG Gigante" logos, but when Pedro Lamy was in F3000, he had to replace the logos in French races with the word "Tabaqueira", the company's name.

pc13

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by ensign14
The best 'disguise' was Zakspeed's 'East' instead of 'West'.

In 1987 at the Hungaroring (but only for Friday IIRC), the Zakspeed team replaced the East and West 'brand names' used in the previous race (Hockenheim) with Hungarian labels 'Kelet' (East) and 'Nyugat' (West!). Unfortunately, I don't have a decent image to post it

[ensign14]

Originally posted by pc13
I wonder why they didn't simply add some other products names, like "Marlboro Jeans" or "Camel Trophy".

Strangely, in the mid 90's, Portuguese drivers who raced in German F3 got away with carrying "SG Gigante" logos, but when Pedro Lamy was in F3000, he had to replace the logos in French races with the word "Tabaqueira", the company's name.

pc13

Yes, when the French government put their foot down over tobacco sponsorship full stop, didn't Ligier get sponsred by Gitanes Blondes? (Matches, I think, before you start. ) The Blondes bit being in very small writing?

[Catalina Park]

I remember a rally car with Camel signs in a non tobbaco event they changed the Camel to Came1st but it was the way that the 1st was written with the st very small made it look like the L in Camel.

[Rainer Nyberg]

McLaren used sometimes during the 80s the word McLaren but in Marlboro typo.

Mostly during the 90s they just used the 'speedstripes'.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Rainer Nyberg
McLaren used sometimes during the 80s the word McLaren but in Marlboro typo.

Exactly! I watched the 1986 season summary yesterday, and Clive James commentated this move by saying: 'In Britain the spelling of word Marlboro was M-C-L-A-R-E-N

[Ross Stonefeld]

At the end of 2006 all tobacco advertising is banned, but is tobacco sponsorship? Ie can Marlboro keep paying Ferrari to run the half-logo, because the majority of race fans will know full well what it really means? Especially since at least in US commentary, we get more tobacco references at the banned races because of the announcer explaining the difference

[Rainer Nyberg]

I think tobacco will be out by 2006. I am sure it would still be possble to carry the Marlboro chevron but I think all teams will come to a 'gentlemens agreement' and stop using tobacco sponsorship.

[mikedeering]

I think they tightened up the rules regarding logos.

While they full Camel logo was allowed in 1989, I recall that in later years (when they sponsored Benetton and Williams, the logo was removed - with Benetton running "Benetton F1" and Williams having a large blue dot.

Also consider the Marlboro chevron - they used to just remove the lettering, but then they split the Chevron into two red triangles, and finally removed it altogether.

Also IIRC, Rothmans used to have Racing, with the Rothmans Shield logo at the non-tobacco races, but then switched to the ugly ? instead.

I have also noticed how some races some cars don't carry the tobacco sig, and others do - mainly in Canada and the US - is this to do with rules where cigarettes firms can only sponser one series e.g. Marlboro feature on the Penskes in CART/IRL, so can't be displayed on the Ferrari's at Indy?

B&H never appeared on the Jordans at Montreal IIRC, and Rothmans used to say "Rothmans Ltd" in Canada as well - anyone know why?

[MrAerodynamicist]

I think its due to the 1 series rule applying to companies rather than brands. I think the parent company of b&h also own players?

[Ross Stonefeld]

There was something weird about Canadian law that you had to 'register' your brand or something. I dunno really, but it was certainly unique.

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
There was something weird about Canadian law that you had to 'register' your brand or something. I dunno really, but it was certainly unique.

I heard a rumour that you could not advertise the cigarettes if they were not sold in Canada! Weird rule if that is the case...you would think the opposite would be true - it would be fine to advertise ciggies if consumers didn't have access to them!

[Berner]

As a former employee of Health Canada, here goes: Tobacco advertising in print, TV & radio was banned in mid-eighties leading the Big Three Cancer Delivery Agents to start sponsoring anything & everything. Fashion, arts, sport, music, you name it. By the late eighties, Canada had SIX domestic national racing series of which three were title sponsored by tobacco. These were: Rothman's Porsche Turbocup, Player's-GM, and Export A F-2000. Add to these the N.American F-Atlantic series. The non-tabbacy series were Honda-Michelin, various iterations of F-1600 and a Firehawk showroom stock series. Ah, the glory years of Canadian motorsport.

By the early nineties, the sponsorship loophole was tightened such that only the manufacturers' name or an artificially created company name could be displayed. For example, it is now Player's Racing or even Player's Extreme Sports, and so on. This final loophole expires shortly.

The exceptions to these rules include major international events where particpants may display branding. Thus, unlike the USA, you can have cigs in both F1 and CART events in Canada, regardless of the parentage.

Unfortunately, as a former government sold Canada to the yanks via NAFTA, we cannot control US magazines which continue to carry page after page of skinny hipsters with nary a carcinogen in site. Gotta love free trade.

And that is how it is in Canada, land of the cold and slightly less cancerous. Now about that lumber thing.....

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Geza Sury

In 1987 at the Hungaroring (but only for Friday IIRC), the Zakspeed team replaced the East and West 'brand names' used in the previous race (Hockenheim) with Hungarian labels 'Kelet' (East) and 'Nyugat' (West!). Unfortunately, I don't have a decent image to post it

Although the quality of this picture is nowhere near good, here it is!



Any comments?

[fines]

Yes, I remember having seen such pictures in period. I thought it was cool, rather not typical of the most Germanic "ole grey fox", Erich Zakowski. But "West" (Reemtsma) was always known for their somewhat "progressive" commercials

[dolomite]

At the 93 Canadian GP the Camel sponsored cars (Williams and Benetton) were signwritten 'Courses Camel Inc'.

[pedro]

As I neither speak or understand Hungarian, I have no comments expect to say that there wasn't a ban on tobacco ads in Hungary, so West could have used West as usual. Maybe (though it seems highly unlikely) the brand was sold a Nyugat in Hungary? But why Kelet?

Was this meant to be some sort of political statement by Zakspeed?

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by pedro
As I neither speak or understand Hungarian, I have no comments expect to say that there wasn't a ban on tobacco ads in Hungary, so West could have used West as usual. Maybe (though it seems highly unlikely) the brand was sold a Nyugat in Hungary? But why Kelet?

Was this meant to be some sort of political statement by Zakspeed?

Tobacco advertising is still allowed in Hungary. In 1986 (that was the first Hungarian GP) the field had arrived straight from Germany, where of course tobacco advertising is forbidden. As a gesture, that Hungary was the first East-european country to host a GP, the Zakspeed team decided to leave the word 'East' on one car (IIRC it was Huub Rothengatter's) while in Jonathan Palmer's car they converted back to the original 'West' label.

One year later they did the same gesture with the difference, that they translated the words East and West to Hungarian. Of course, you can buy West fag in Hungary, but no Nyugat, nor Kelet

[David Beard]

British, French and German GPs were generally tobacco free in the late 80s. Seem to remember they had 'LOTUS' in the same typeface (although not on the Benettons).

As seen at the 2012 Autosport show in the Senna display...

[Doug Nye]

I remember the 1971 Spa 1000Kms seeing Roger Enever and either Clive Baker or Guy Edwards being involved with the new new Huron sports car, which was liveried in yellow with Camel lettering and sponsorship. I had never even heard of Camel as a cigarette brand and was greatly amused by the notion - since I'd hated cigarettes and smoking from childhood - that this brand probably smelled as bad as a pile of camel umbala... However, Camel had really pushed the boat out with tethered Camel-lettered gas balloons floating high above the paddock and the main spectator areas and some pretty nice-looking proud-breasted crumpet wandering around the place in yellow hot pants and clinging glossy blouses (@$%!), handing out samples of the brand's disgusting product. All of which must have added hugely to the team's intense embarrassment as the new Huron dismally failed to qualify. In fact I am not sure it didn't even complete a single practice lap. The Huron season in World Championship racing did not prosper, I am afraid. But that was my introduction to Camel cigarettes.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 14 January 2012 - 21:48.

[arttidesco]

I remember the 1971 Spa 1000Kms seeing Roger Enever and either Clive Baker or Guy Edwards being involved with the new new Huron sports car, which was liveried in yellow with Camel lettering and sponsorship.

DCN

Looks like Roger Enever / Clive Baker were paired in the #6 and Shaun Jackson / Syd Fox in the #7 and neither ran.

From this ad it would appear Doctors were being used to plug Camels back in the 'olden days'

[mfd]

As seen at the 2012 Autosport show in the Senna display...

It reminded me seeing the 99T, that with the much larger Camel budget, Lotus turned away from signwritten (oatmeal) lettering and had all the lettering screen printed on vinyl in blue & silver and then cut with a form, in the "old fashioned" way. In 1987, the nowadays common place computer driven printer/cutters didn't exist. Apparently 3M Spandex, as the vinyl suppliers didn't have a stock yellow shade to match the Camel paint code, so they merely had some printed - rolls & rolls of it!

[brucemoxon]

Looks like Roger Enever / Clive Baker were paired in the #6 and Shaun Jackson / Syd Fox in the #7 and neither ran.

From this ad it would appear Doctors were being used to plug Camels back in the 'olden days'

Seven out of ten doctors who have tried Camels, preferred women...



Sorry. Couldn't resist.




BM

[brucemoxon]

And then there's this take on the old camel joke...

http://www.google.co...=1t:429,r:6,s:0




Bruce Moxon

[Geza Sury]

The best 'disguise' was Zakspeed's 'East' instead of 'West'.

I talked to Jonathan Palmer last year and he told me that it had been his idea to change 'West' to 'East' on the Zakspeed cars.

[arttidesco]

When I was at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting a couple of weeks ago I was surprised to find the suggestion that Camel monies had filtered all the way down to the clubmans series and this pair of Mallocks :

 

 

#49 Phil Bisgrove Mallock Mk20B

 

 

#67 Paul Marchall Mallock Mk18B

 

Does anyone remember this happening in period ?