74 replies to this topic

[Mario]

Good Morning – first off, my apologies if some feel that this topic is ill placed for The Nostalgia Forum. My reason for posting here is that I believe this to one of the more mature F1 discussion forums with a membership that is capable of recounting detailed and accurate racing incidents that involved Ayrton Senna.

If you can kindly list with accuracy, a specific racing incident where Senna was in the wrong, I’d like to read it. What immediately comes to mind is Estoril 88 with Senna pinching Prost into the pit lane wall and Suzuka 90 where Senna rammed into Prost at full speed to win the championship.

I look forward to your recounts on this and if you happen to know of some video clips available on the net to further illustrate your arguments, I’d love to see those as well.

Cheers and thanks-in-advance

P.S. I’m sure there was an incident that involved Mansell in a Ferrari and Senna in a McLaren - any recollections?

[FEV]

Well I don't think I am qualified enough to say who is "wrong" in a racing accident involving more than one driver. Of course Senna himself made it clear years after that Suzuka 1990 was a delibarate aggresion on Prost so that's the only one I'm sure of. But maybe we could add Monaco 1988 where Ayrton put Senna out

[Geza Sury]

Mario, welcome to the Nostalgia Forum! I agree with FEV, it's awfully difficult to decide who is wrong in an accident and who is not! BTW, nice avatar!

[Rediscoveryx]

The incident involving Nigel Mansell in a Ferrari was at Estoril in 1989. Mansell had received a black flag and was trying to pass Senna who refused to yield so they touched and both drivers were eliminated from the race. Mansell was found to be giulty and received a one race ban if my memory is accurate.

Mansell was the guilty one in this case, however the pair had a few other collisions; Adelaide 1985, Rio 1986, Spa 1987. These accidents were pretty much 50-50 in my book atleast.

[Mario]

Thanks for the warm welcome, Geza Sury. It’s not so much that I am looking for involving where Senna is totally culpable, just simply incidents that involved Senna, regardless of how much or how little fault there was in his driving.

[Pieter]

I don't know if it's considered a racing incident, but Mexico 87 pops-up in my mind. Where Senna spun during the race caused by clutch problems. He wanted the marshalls to give him a push, to restart the car. But they refused and wanted to pushed the car away from the track. So Ayrton hit one of the marshalls, an action for which the FISA fined him.

[Martyj]

I believe Senna threw away a sure win in the Brazilian GP -- can't remember the year -- while lapping a backmarker at the hairpin. Can't remember who the backmarker was, but I remember the TV commentators remarking how Senna trying to pass at the hairpin with a big lead was foolish and impatient. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

[LittleChris]

It may have been one of the Tyrrell drivers ( Katayama ?!? )

[grmpreefan]

Originally posted by Martyj
I believe Senna threw away a sure win in the Brazilian GP -- can't remember the year -- while lapping a backmarker at the hairpin. Can't remember who the backmarker was, but I remember the TV commentators remarking how Senna trying to pass at the hairpin with a big lead was foolish and impatient. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

I am sure you a referring to Brazil 90 when Senna was trying to lap Satoru Nakajima in his Tyrell in the infield section. From what I remember from watching the race was that Nakajima had indeed tried to make way for Senna to lap him but in doing so moved onto the marbles and then proceeded to slide into Senna when he was exiting the corner and thoroughly removing most of Sennas front wing which necessitated a pit stop and left Prost to take a comfortable first victory for Ferrari. Not really anyones fault but certainly Nakajima should have been more alert to the different conditions off of the racing line.

I am sure this is the incident in question.

[Ed Kooij]

Hi there,

although I am myself very much pro Senna and con Schumacher, I think Senna's behaviour at Hockenheim 1992, whilst defending 2nd position from Patrese was not very much according to rules. Blocking three times on one straight is even something Schumacher hasn't tried yet... great racing from both drivers back then, though.

Another one would be Sao Paolo '90: Senna damaged his front wing while lapping Satoru Nakajima. Some blamed Nakajima for not looking in his mirrors, others Senna for overtaking too agressively.

In Adelaide 1989 he drove into the back of another car in heavy rainfall. IIRC it was Eddie Cheever, but I'm not sure about that one. No one but poor visibility at fault there.

Aida '93: At the start Hakkinen gets pushed by Alesi, and in turn pushes Senna off the road in the first corner.

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by LittleChris
It may have been one of the Tyrrell drivers ( Katayama ?!? )

Thinking about it I'm fairly sure it was Satoru Nakajima in the Tyrrell in 1990

[King Nigel]

Hey Martyj,

I think it was Nakajima in his Tyrell in 1990 involved in the "incident" at the Brazilian GP.

Well, back to this topic, Ayrton and Nigel had a lot of smashes together, including there very last race at Adelaïde in 1992 when Nigel left the F1 circus. The "greatest" fight was probably in Belgium in 1987 when Nigel came back in the pit lane beating Ayrton. Damn it !

What a great champions era ... hum, I just feel nostalgic now !

[Pieter]

Originally posted by Ed Kooij

In Adelaide 1989 he drove into the back of another car in heavy rainfall. IIRC it was Eddie Cheever, but I'm not sure about that one. No one but poor visibility at fault there.

Aida '93: At the start Hakkinen gets pushed by Alesi, and in turn pushes Senna off the road in the first corner.

It was Martin Brundle in 1989, he drove a Brabham-Judd and for some reason was this car equiped with a camera in the back, making it look if Senna was about to crash out of telly.

The start incident at Aida was in 1994. Hakkinen pushed Senna, who spun half into the gravel, after which Nicola Larini (Alesi's replacement at the time) crashed into Ayrton's car, ending both their races.

[grmpreefan]

I too am a great admirer of Ayrton Senna but also too but very embarrassed by a few idiotic things he did in his time.

I remember at Monza in 93 where Senna was running midfield in his McLaren after coming off second best after losing a game of chicken with Hill at the first chicane at the start. He was behind Brundles Renault engined Ligier and was at a considerable straight line speed disadvantage and obviously grew tired of being left for dead on the straights while climbing all over Brundle in the corners and just drove straight up his backside at the Roggia chicane taking them both out of the race.
He had no apparent technical problems and just decided to take both of them off because I assume he grew tired of fighting a losing battle over a midfield finishing position.
I got a copy of a documentary filmed for an English tv station from a friend that had been in the UK which was called "A season with McLaren" and this little episode was in the program and after this incident Senna was in the transporter getting changed while the McLaren press guy was trying to get some comments on what went wrong to tell the media and Senna was smiling and telling him that "he just didnt have enough ability to stop the car" which obviously translates into I lost interest and made little attempt to stop the car from hitting the car in front because I have no interest in fighting over 8th place or whatever it was.
It was interesting to hear Brundle say later too that Senna had bolted over to him to see if he was okay and when he was told he was he wasnt the slightest bit apolgetic about taking him off.
Anyway just an incident I recalled and thought it was worth mentioning for this thread.

[Ed Kooij]

You're completely right Pieter.
I'm typing quicker then I can remeber again =)

[Louis Mr. F1]

Also, there is the 89 Brazilian clash with Berger ritht at the 1st corner of the 1st lap of the 1st race of the year. Senna was sandwiched between Patrese, who was closing the door from the outside and then there was Berger charging from the inside. Senna, being squeezed and also reluctant to yield, lost his front wing and Berger retired immediately. Senna made 2 long stops to replace the wing and eventually finished somewhere around 9th. I think this 1st race incident just characterized his 1989 season, which he had crashed with all the other 3 top drivers(Mansell + Prost) + a spinout on his own (Britain) to complete the Grand Slam.

Another controversial move was his overtaking manoeuver on Nannini at the Hungarian GP for 2nd place, Nannini was being pitched in the air and lost a certain podium finish, he was also challenging Boutsen for 1st at the time. Nannini said after the race "I'll never forget that!"

However, it seems Senna has never clashed with the other Brazilian Piquet. Their most intense and exciting fight, I'd say, was the 86 Hungarian GP, where Piquet passed Senna around the outside of the first corner, braked too late, Piquet's car went sideway big time, but still managed to catch the car and completed the move.

Senna's defensive driving at the Britain 93 race was pretty controversial as well, both on Prost and Schumacher. I think Schumacher really learned his techniques during those 2 years.

The battle between Senna and Mansell was always good. mexico 91, spain 91, monaco 92, some he won, some he lost.

I can think of more and more.....

[Mario]

Thanks guys – hitting an official, multiple blocking, and ramming an opponent off circuit. Sheesh, so Senna is not so immaculate, eh?;)

Question: does anyone remember an incident where Senna and Mansell are running side by side, with Senna leaving absolutely no room for Nigel to remain on the track, who eventually spun after being squeezed out. I cannot remember the GP but it was a blatant ‘squeeze’ by Senna against Nige.

Thanks Louis Mr. F1, Piquest pass on Senna was an absolute beauty – fantastic!

[Louis Mr. F1]

Mario, was that the 92 Canadian GP? the incident was never shown on TV, but that's what Mansell said after the off. Mansell remained in the car for one full lap, and waited for Senna to come around to show him the finger.

or could it be the 1986 Brazilian GP, Mansell was trying to pass Senna at the end of the very long straight, but Senna closed the door on Mansell and Mansell having to hit the brake hard, lost the rear end of the car and hit the guardrail.
either one, Mansell was pretty upset of what Senna did to him.

[Mario]

Oh gosh for the life of me the GP escapes my memory although I am fairly certain that it was neither the Canadian nor Brazilian GP. Somewhere in Europe and the incident itself was definitely on tape. I’ll have to rack my brains a fair bit to note the specifics of the incident but it’s the type of stuff that Michael Schumacher gets lambasted for today.

[mikedeering]

I think the squeezing incident was in free practice at Interlagos 1992. Senna was going slow, Mansell went to overtake on the outside, and then Senna just moved over on Mansell, who spun off into the barrier. The whole sequence was filmed from a helicopter - Mansell said at the time he felt Senna just wanted to push him so he would lose valuable running time required to perfect his race setup.

[MarkWRX]

Mario, when Senna is beatified, you will probably be burned at the stake for your heritical views. Probably in the infield at the Brazilian Grand Prix.

There have been some threads about a certain Formula 1 Magazine giving Senna a great deal of coverage. Their last issue was the first "Senna-free" issue in about 6 months.

Senna was a charismatic person and an outstanding racing driver. However, he, like Michael Schumacher, has a win at any cost attitude that sometimes goes in the face of what is considered sporting behaviour. And can sometimes be downright dangerous.

Well, after saying that, I guess they will have to put up a stake for me too!

Mark

[Mario]

Thanks mikedeering – outside of hesitation for thinking it took place somewhere else, your description sounds very much like the incident; Nige goes to the outside and Senna squeezes him right off the circuit. IIRC, it wasn’t the fastest exchange of racing.

LOL MarkWRX - Impreza/Rally fan?

[Liam]

I think it was '88 when Senna was leading at Monza. He went to pass a backmarker (Stefan Johansen springs to mind) and hit him, taking Senna out. Had he won that race, McLaren would have won all GP that year.

In '89 at Suzuka for the title decider between himself and Prost, Aytron was in second to his teamate when they approached the chicane. Prost gave him no room and they both slid straight off onto the escape road and stalled. Prost was more than happy to get out of the car, the World Champion, but Senna wasn't. The Marshells push-started Senna's car , and he went on to win the race, and he thought, the Championship.
Then FISA decided he had been push-started, which was illegal and DQ'd him. Senna protested, saying they pushed him for safety reasons. Things got worse over the summer with Senna and FISA president Belestre (sp?) not getting on at all. Senna even refused to sign his superlicense for a while.
All that laid the groundwork for Susuka '90 and another showdown between Senna and Prost. I don't know when it happened, but the Pole Position was moved to the inside line for the first corner, on the dirty side of the track. Senna wa son pole and wanted to start from the clean side of the track (as is the normal way) but Belestre refused to change it. Senna is reputed to have said that if Prost beat him into T1, he'd hit him, and thats exactly as it happened.

[Mario]

Liam – an act for which the governing body at the time should have penalised Senna to the fullest extent. I can certainly appreciate the circumstances but revenge has no place on the racetrack.

[troyf1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liam
[B]I think it was '88 when Senna was leading at Monza. He went to pass a backmarker (Stefan Johansen springs to mind) and hit him, taking Senna out. Had he won that race, McLaren would have won all GP that year.

Jean Louis Schlesser in a Williams was the guy Senna hit at Monza in 1988.....JLS was subbing for Mansell........

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1
However, it seems Senna has never clashed with the other Brazilian Piquet. Their most intense and exciting fight, I'd say, was the 86 Hungarian GP, where Piquet passed Senna around the outside of the first corner, braked too late, Piquet's car went sideway big time, but still managed to catch the car and completed the move.

He did off the track, sort of, when he took exception to being called a homosexual by Nelson, who at the same time called Roseanne Mansell 'ugly'. Class act. I hope Piquet was misquoted.

[Rediscoveryx]

I really didn't care much for the Nannini incident in Hungary, that was very unneccesary from Senna. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned his punch on Irvine after the 1993 Japanese GP.

[badri]

I think the groundwork for the Senna/Prost clashes in '89 was laid in Imola.
The two had an agreement about the 1st corner - Senna honored it at the start,
but there was a restart when Senna didn't. When asked later, he said that the
agreement was only for the start and not for the restart!

[ensign14]

Originally posted by badri
I think the groundwork for the Senna/Prost clashes in '89 was laid in Imola.
The two had an agreement about the 1st corner - Senna honored it at the start,
but there was a restart when Senna didn't. When asked later, he said that the
agreement was only for the start and not for the restart!

I've always found this one fascinating. Didn't Senna have a point, which I don't remember anyone picking up? I may have it totally wrong, but here goes...

The race was decided on aggregate because it was stopped after 34 laps. I.e. not a brand new race. So on the restart Senna had a 2 second or so lead on Prost.

Once they restarted, Senna could have sat on Prost's tail all race, he would still have been the winner (remember Japan 94?). Therefore, when Senna 'overtook' Prost, he was already in the lead (shades of Nuvolari/Varzi in the Mille Miglia that year - 1930?). Why should he have stayed behind him?

[Wolf]

Rediscoveryx- I was about to mention that...;) Mario, if you want footage of Prost-da Silva collisions, I belive relevant threads in 'Atlas Court' (You may need to change the options of 'threads displayed' on the top of the page if You can't see them) have links to mpg files of Suzuka '89/'90...

[Mario]

Thanks Wolf - I have those ones but it I am more interested in the less talked about incidents involving other drivers. Thanks though

[Rediscoveryx]

Wasn't there an incident in Saturday's qualifying at Monaco 1985 where Senna was sitting on pole and just circulated the track att very low speeds to "get in the way" of his rivals? I seem to remember Niki Lauda being very upset about this, though I'm not 100% sure, could someone verify this?

[Louis Mr. F1]

definitely, and Michele Alboreto also criticized him the same thing. Alboreto's concern was, with his talent and ability, he didn't need to use such tactics to get the pole position.

on the other hand, Ayrton used some clever and imo, legitimate tactics at the Portuguese GP in 86, by carefully timing his passing move on the backmarkers and then use the backmarkers to block his rivals, he was able to keep a much faster Piquet behind him lap after lap.

[Mila]

Senna put Rosberg into a spin at the 85 European GP at Brands Hatch.

Senna also banged wheels with his Lotus teammate, de Angelis, at the following round at Kyalami.

[unrepentant lurker]

Prost claims to have been punted by Senna in a celebrity race at the Nurburgring. I think this was in his Toleman days. Also, there is a driver from F3 that claims he was punted by Senna on an opening lap.

[oldtimer]

Originally posted by Rediscoveryx
I really didn't care much for the Nannini incident in Hungary

Nor I, BIG time. That was a turning point for me in my regard of Senna.

[SennasCat]

Mario,

There was an incident between Mansell and Senna at Spa in '87. It was the first or second lap after a restart. Mansell in Williams Honda, Senna in McLaren. Senna pushed inside of Mansell and they both spun off. Both ended up retiring and Mansell stalked over to Senna's pit and tried to throttle him. Schumi didn't invent dirty driving, he just elevated it to an artform. Prost's role in the lowering of standards can't be overlooked as he was the one who crashed into Senna in Japan at the chicane when they were both in McLarens (I think 1988)

[Ed Kooij]

Originally posted by Mario
Question: does anyone remember an incident where Senna and Mansell are running side by side, with Senna leaving absolutely no room for Nigel to remain on the track, who eventually spun after being squeezed out. I cannot remember the GP but it was a blatant ‘squeeze’ by Senna against Nige.

Are you sure you're not referring to Berger's assault on Mansell in San Marino 1990? I think it was between Tamburello and Villeneuve that Berger pushed Mansell all the way off the track at near 300 km/h. Mansell spun a perfect 360 on the grass, and continued shaken but not stirred

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by ensign14


I've always found this one fascinating. Didn't Senna have a point, which I don't remember anyone picking up? I may have it totally wrong, but here goes...

The race was decided on aggregate because it was stopped after 34 laps. I.e. not a brand new race. So on the restart Senna had a 2 second or so lead on Prost.

Once they restarted, Senna could have sat on Prost's tail all race, he would still have been the winner (remember Japan 94?). Therefore, when Senna 'overtook' Prost, he was already in the lead (shades of Nuvolari/Varzi in the Mille Miglia that year - 1930?). Why should he have stayed behind him?

The restart was earlier than lap 34 - it was for Berger's fiery crash at Tamburello, which IIRC was lap 4. Senna was leading at the time, but I think the race was restarted afresh, with no aggregate timing.

Senna also suggested the arrangement was no overtaking "underbraking" - he claimed Prost was simply slower than him down to Villeneuve, and Senna could hardly be expected to brake to stay behind him on the straight - he had to pull alongside or he would have hit him. His momentum then carried him past, well before the braking point for Tosa. Not saying I agree with him, but that was his explanation...

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Steve Williams
Mario,

There was an incident between Mansell and Senna at Spa in '87. It was the first or second lap after a restart. Mansell in Williams Honda, Senna in McLaren. Senna pushed inside of Mansell and they both spun off. Both ended up retiring and Mansell stalked over to Senna's pit and tried to throttle him. Schumi didn't invent dirty driving, he just elevated it to an artform. Prost's role in the lowering of standards can't be overlooked as he was the one who crashed into Senna in Japan at the chicane when they were both in McLarens (I think 1988)

Not quite correct - Senna (for once!) was innocent of any blame here. Mansell initially led before a momental accident involving the Tyrrells and a Lola near Eau Rouge forced a restart. Mansell was slow away and Senna led in the Lotus. Mansell was obviously faster and still smarting at losing the lead was determined to pass Senna at the earliest opportunity. He dived up the inside into a right-left section (after Pouhon IIRC) where there was clearly no room and both cars spun out - Mansell did get go again but retired shortly afterwards.

James Hunt, who initially blamed Senna on BBC TV, made a point of publicly apologising to Senna at the next race, stating he had reviewed the incident and was convinced the blame lay firmly with Mansell.

Prost crashing slow-mo stylee into Senna was at the Casio Triangle, Suzuka in 1989 - and I agree he was at fault here.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by mikedeering


The restart was earlier than lap 34 - it was for Berger's fiery crash at Tamburello, which IIRC was lap 4. Senna was leading at the time, but I think the race was restarted afresh, with no aggregate timing.

Senna also suggested the arrangement was no overtaking "underbraking" - he claimed Prost was simply slower than him down to Villeneuve, and Senna could hardly be expected to brake to stay behind him on the straight - he had to pull alongside or he would have hit him. His momentum then carried him past, well before the braking point for Tosa. Not saying I agree with him, but that was his explanation...

Sorry - should have said lap 3 OR 4...either way, tho', I thought the rules allowed for a complete fresh start only if less than 3 laps were complete?

[mikedeering]

Not sure about the specific rule - may also have been different in 1989 to now. I checked Forix, and the race was only 58 laps - normally the Imola event pre-1995 was 61 or 62 laps IIRC, so it looks like the organisers just wiped the laps before Berger's crash from the record books!

[alain]

Regarding Estoril88...IIRC Prost made a Schuey chop on Senna at the start but Senna didnt lift and got past...

The `wall`incident was probably Sennas way of showing he will not be intimitated

[Rediscoveryx]

I think the rules at that time (1989) said that if a certain percentage of the race (10% or so, I'm not sure though) had been run then the race couldn't be redflagged. I don't remember any race being run á la Suzuka 1994 with aggregate timing, and I also believe that I read in the race reports for the 1992 French GP that the race (France) was the first time in history this had happened.

Does anyone have more info, perhaps more reliable info as Iäm not 100% sure of this

[alain]

Here are all the races that have been run in 2 parts with the reason also given..


78 Oost rain
79 ZA rain
81 Fr rain
82 Det acc Patrese
84 GB acc Palmer
87 Mex acc Warwick
89 SM acc Berger
89 Mex acc Modena
92 Fr rain
94 Jap rain

[Robbie]

Originally posted by Louis Mr. F1

Senna's defensive driving at the Britain 93 race was pretty controversial as well, both on Prost and Schumacher. I think Schumacher really learned his techniques during those 2 years.

I have an MPEG file of the sequence where all three are racing virtually side by side, and the swerving by Ayrton is unbelievable: he was way, way off the racing line on several occasions (I don't know what Montoya who has AS as his idol was complaining about in MS!).

I'd like to post the file, but that's probably not possible.

[Mario]

Robbie – do you know the size of the file? If you have a program such as Kazaa (wwww.kazaa.com) perhaps we can exchange it or if it’s a reasonable size, you could always try sending me an e-mail. I’d be very interesting in viewing this

[Louis Mr. F1]

Mario, i saw that you're also in Toronto, i can lend the race tape or the season review tape to you, they both captured the battle.
in the season review tape, of the SAfrican GP, it shows after AS closed the door on MS and MS spun to retirement, MS was very upset about it in the pitlane. but i think thats what he's doing now.

[SB]

Originally posted by ensign14


Sorry - should have said lap 3 OR 4...either way, tho', I thought the rules allowed for a complete fresh start only if less than 3 laps were complete?

There was aggregate timing at that time. AFAIK, the rule allowed a complete fresh restart only if there is less than 1 lap completed. For exmaple, in Monaco 95 one Simtek was classified as "Did not start" after crashed in the first corner and didnt have the share car for the restart.

The same rules stood until last year and the Belgium GP (red flag for Burti) was debut application of not using aggregate timing after a red flag.

SB

[Mario]

Thanks Louis Mr. F1 – I might just take you up on that or pass by Speed and pick up a copy of the tape. DVD reviews would be nice (dream on, I know )

Can you describe the incident a bit more? Was Senna clearly in the fault? Would it be just the sort of the thing that would send today’s F1 fans into a mad pitched frenzy over Schumacherian Ethics?