132 replies to this topic

[Daniel Lester]

Flavio would rather sign Panis instead of Villeneuve.

http://www.itv-f1.co...ews_story/10315

That must really hurt, 2 teams would prefer young drivers and/or there current drivers and not an expensive ex-champ and one team boss (Ove) believes Jacques is in decline. OUCH!

Personally I believe Jacques is very good, but no one will take him at his price. It's been 4 seasons since he won the title and only 4 podiums places, not a great sign for any ex-champ regardless of what car he's in.

[Ghostrider]

The main point for JV is his huge salary. I think most teams are interested, if he would consider a pay cut. His high salary is almost forcing him out of BAR as well. Tough situation for JV, hope he can find a good ride eventually.

[Arrow]

Flavio is right.JV is not worth that money considering how close panis is too him.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by Arrow
Flavio is right.JV is not worth that money considering how close panis is too him.

Or on the other hand, JV is worth the money, it's just that Panis is selling himself too cheaply.

[BARnone]

Remember this - Flavio has Alonso in his stable and would like to open up a seat for him. As Alonso's manager - Flavio would be double dipping at Renault (the heinous thing Pollock has been accused of).

I'd take what he said about Villeneuve with a grain of salt. Could also be a bargaining ploy.

BARnone.

[Nira]

Good. Lets hope JV stay at BAR at a reduced salary.

[ehagar]

I think it's a crock of cr$p to suggest that Villeneuve has lost it or is a waning star due to fading ability. The same was said about Ronnie Peterson until he managed to get a Lotus drive. Didn't Senna offer to drive for Williams for next to nothing?

Prehaps Jacques will have to do the same. Swallow his pride and drive for peanuts. Otherwise he better investigate other series options.

[BARnone]

I also think it is crap because as of last year, Flavio said he was "this close" to signing Villeneuve for Benneton/Renault. Does anyone think that Villeneuve was willing to take a paycut then?

Also - Panis was touted as a good development driver and McLaren wanted to keep him. Well - Panis has been developing the car for over a year now and it's the same piece of crap (or worse) than it was in 2001 - this according to Geoff Willis.

BARnone.

[aportinga]

I'd take Villeneuve over Trulli at his (Trulli's) cost

[davioissimo]

Villeneuve was out driven by Frentzen in 1998 Hill was better than Villenueve albeit his first year..but for HILL to be better than anyone at any point in their career means at least that they are not a superstar good maybe but not a superstar......i always watch the bits 'in-between' whose doing what out of the limelight and in 1998 Frentzen was really solid and at least a match for Villenueve....nearly 2 seconds quicker than him at Monaco

[tifoso]

Originally posted by BARnone
Also - Panis was touted as a good development driver and McLaren wanted to keep him. Well - Panis has been developing the car for over a year now and it's the same piece of crap (or worse) than it was in 2001 - this according to Geoff Willis.

BARnone. I agree with your previous post about Briatore using ploys. I don't generally trust anything he says on face value as there are usually a couple of ulterior motives involved.

But I'm not sure you can slam Panis development abilities because BAR's car this year isn't better than last year's. How do we know what feedback Panis gave? How do we know what BAR did with that feedback? And so on.

[SeanValen]

Paycuts are the key for Jacques.

[Paste]

Originally posted by davioissimo
Villeneuve was out driven by Frentzen in 1998

Alright, let's hold it right there. That's such a lie! Jacques outdid Heinz-Harald in both 1997 and 1998. Frentzen had the ocassional excellent drive, but Jacques was definitely better both years.

[berge]

the end might be near for Jacques,

." Toyota have also said they would be unlikely to sign the French-Canadian who has a reputation for limiting his public appearances. Team boss Ove Andersson said he wanted hungry, inexpensive drivers.

He said: "We’re not interested in people like Jacques Villeneuve and Mika Hakkinen. They’re famous, expensive drivers who would weigh on our budget, but what would they give in return? "One is retired and other is on the wane. Villeneuve has been a great champion, but his performance is in decline."

[BARnone]

Tifoso - those are my questions exactly. According to this Geoff Willis says the car is bad both aerodynamically and in the design. He also says that windtunnel work is suspect and that the engineering department is crying out for direction. One wonders what they did with the input of two race drivers and 4 test drivers.

As for Panis - I am not slamming him really - I just don't think he's as good a race driver as Villeneuve and that if his value is as a developer then BAR hasn't yet realized the benefit of those talents.

Davio - I agree Frentzen is underrated at times but I don't think he is better than Villeneuve. Don't forget - Frentzen was touted as the Schumi beater when he came into F1 but never really attained that.

BARnone.

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by Paste


Alright, let's hold it right there. That's such a lie! Jacques outdid Heinz-Harald in both 1997 and 1998. Frentzen had the ocassional excellent drive, but Jacques was definitely better both years.

Frentzen drove better in the races I got the races on tape put it this way he really really doesnt allow Villenueve to stand out in any way at all considering he was current world champion you'd hardly notice and they shared the qualifying Villenueve had a few more better Quals. Panis has kept him honest too...Villenueve would be trounced by Michael Schumacher or Hakkinen/Fisi/Ralf/JPM there loads better than him...and thats not lately im talking ever since entering F1...gimme an impressive drive then ill look it up and see if i agree(compromise)

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by BARnone
Tifoso - those are my questions exactly. According to this Geoff Willis says the car is bad both aerodynamically and in the design. He also says that windtunnel work is suspect and that the engineering department is crying out for direction. One wonders what they did with the input of two race drivers and 4 test drivers.

As for Panis - I am not slamming him really - I just don't think he's as good a race driver as Villeneuve and that if his value is as a developer then BAR hasn't yet realized the benefit of those talents.

Davio - I agree Frentzen is underrated at times but I don't think he is better than Villeneuve. Don't forget - Frentzen was touted as the Schumi beater when he came into F1 but never really attained that.

BARnone.

Well he wasnt really better purely on results, he was more solid in races ummm i just think Frentzen is better than villenueve or at least there quite a few drivers better than Villenueve he suffered from JPM publicity-itis when he arrived and straight into the best car he was never made to suffer like the real champs have to before being let loose in a good car(schumi, senna, prost, mansell,etc,etc) It really makes the drivers, it hardens them up, disciplined when they have to slog it out like hakkinen did in the mcclaren in the mid 90's picking up 3rds and 4ths just hanging on in there patiently having to do this now in the BAR has really shown us the real Villenueve...he was spoilt basically.

[HardRock]

JV is a good driver but too expensive when you compare him against other drivers.
He probably makes 3 times more than most of them, but he's not that much fast
to justify what he makes.

[davioissimo]

I still think take away the name and you've got a good F1 driver fast on occasion and thats about it. That name has saved his Bacon.

[Rene]

Originally posted by davioissimo
...gimme an impressive drive then ill look it up and see if i agree(compromise)

Why don't you start with his first ever F1 race....the whole weekend he was amazing....if not for a slight off he would have won his first race....

[BARnone]

For all his talents where is Frentzen now? He put in an astonishing year in the 1999 Jordan but as 2000 showed that was an anomaly.

BARnone.

[Marlowe]

I would have to agree with Paste. JV outqualified HHF 10 to 6 in 98 (or was it 11 to 6, I can't remember) and beat him 21 to 17 in points. Not great numbers but JV was not "out driven" by HHF.


Wasn't Portugal 1996 an OK race for JV?

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by davioissimo

i just think Frentzen is better than villenueve

The key word there is "think" Give it a try sometime!

HHF is very lucky to have a drive in any F1 car. Next year he will be stepping up to a Manardi that is if he gets a ride at all.

Do you think?

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by Rene


Why don't you start with his first ever F1 race....the whole weekend he was amazing....if not for a slight off he would have won his first race....

Actually he was told to slow(Engine) but i get your point he was great that weekend but compared to what? how many times have you seen a driver come straight in to the best car on a track nobody had ever raced on and after racing proper international racing cars and doing thousands of miles of testing ? how often do you see a rookie do that ? I'm not interested in seeing how good a driver is in the best car against lets say not the best driver ?

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by Marlowe
[B]I would have to agree with Paste. JV outqualified HHF 10 to 6 in 98 (or was it 11 to 6, I can't remember) and beat him 21 to 17 in points. Not great numbers but JV was not "out driven" by HHF.

Why not ? how closely did you watch the races ? who gives a toss about points in bad cars.....so Button has out driven Raikkonen this year has he ? you shouldve watched the races more closely Frentzen was stronger i dont give a toss who got the failures or whatever lets face it JVi only won cos he was in the best car and it had to be by far the best car too....how on this earth could someone drive so badly at Monaco if he was so good ? Its quite simple with me..im not biased so therefore if i see a good driver i say it how it is..simple he can be any nationality or personality rich, poor, stupid, intelligent, whatever i dont care if he's from the City i was born in if he cant drive he cant drive and if he can he can,

Portugal 96 what about it ?

[Ricardo F1]

No way was HHF ever better than JV at Williams. Not even close, though JV was far more prone to the odd mistake. I'm not surprised that Flavio would say this - personally I think he probably did it to rubbish speculation tying JV to Renault. But from a VFM point of view - I'd probably take Panis as well. From a wanting to win point of view I'd take Villeneuve every time.

[jimm]

Originally posted by davioissimo

Actually he was told to slow(Engine) but i get your point he was great that weekend but compared to what? how many times have you seen a driver come straight in to the best car on a track nobody had ever raced on and after racing proper international racing cars and doing thousands of miles of testing ? how often do you see a rookie do that ? I'm not interested in seeing how good a driver is in the best car against lets say not the best driver ?

How about the following year when your boy Frentzen was out qualified by JV by over 1 sec in the car that was the best! Add to that it was Frentzen's 5th year in F1 and JV's 2nd.

Oh looks like anyone can do great in a great car ...looks like that does not apply to Frentzen. He had the same car all year at was faster..what 2, 3times?

As for other drives... Spain 1998 when JV held 3rd for half the race against MS in the Ferrari, Portugal 1996 where he passed MS around the outside, Jerez where he went toe to toe with MS and came out on top. Look I don't think JV is the best or even 2nd best at the moment but how many great drives has Panis or Frentzen had?? Panis Monoco 1996, Frentzen... thinking thinking, I guess he had a couple of ok wins at Jordan but most of the compitition had dropped out.

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by SlateGray




The key word there is "think" Give it a try sometime!

HHF is very lucky to have a drive in any F1 car. Next year he will be stepping up to a Manardi that is if he gets a ride at all.

Do you think?

Either you dont watch F1 or are completely stupid..sorry....HHF is trouncing the man he ended Jos Verstapens careers and even michael schumacher think jos is good chances are you do too the novices always go for the publicity drivers the ones whos lives make for good stories...well get on with watching the races more carefully.

[Kris Sim Roy]

Originally posted by davioissimo
Villeneuve was out driven by Frentzen in 1998 Hill was better than Villenueve albeit his first year..but for HILL to be better than anyone at any point in their career means at least that they are not a superstar good maybe but not a superstar......i always watch the bits 'in-between' whose doing what out of the limelight and in 1998 Frentzen was really solid and at least a match for Villenueve....nearly 2 seconds quicker than him at Monaco

Hmm!
I thought that analytical skill was fundamental for the profession of journalist?
To judge a driver, we have the choice of using the reality of actual facts, or what you think...

Easy choice mate!

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by jimm


How about the following year when your boy Frentzen was out qualified by JV by over 1 sec in the car that was the best! Add to that it was Frentzen's 5th year in F1 and JV's 2nd.

Oh looks like anyone can do great in a great car ...looks like that does not apply to Frentzen. He had the same car all year at was faster..what 2, 3times?

As for other drives... Spain 1998 when JV held 3rd for half the race against MS in the Ferrari, Portugal 1996 where he passed MS around the outside, Jerez where he went toe to toe with MS and came out on top. Look I don't think JV is the best or even 2nd best at the moment but how many great drives has Panis or Frentzen had?? Panis Monoco 1996, Frentzen... thinking thinking, I guess he had a couple of ok wins at Jordan but most of the compitition had dropped out.

Your boy ? what are you talking about im using HHF to put Villenueve in his correct perpective as being a good driver nothing special. no way could JV have driven like frentzen did in that Jordan...Hill beat Villeneuve remember just a couple of seasons before Frenzten trounced Hill at Jordan this hardly makes Villenueve look like a champion its so funny throwing in counter arguements to people with bias opinions, they never listen and keep on and on the defensive but i just like reading the crap they come out with !!! JV has never stood out...never.

[Todd]

Originally posted by davioissimo
Actually he was told to slow(Engine) but i get your point he was great that weekend but compared to what? how many times have you seen a driver come straight in to the best car on a track nobody had ever raced on and after racing proper international racing cars and doing thousands of miles of testing ? how often do you see a rookie do that ? I'm not interested in seeing how good a driver is in the best car against lets say not the best driver ?

For all that is made of JV's "brilliant" debut in F1, it wasn't a case of him performing that well so much as it was a case of Damon Hill grossly underperforming. If you look at the qualifying gaps from Williams to the rest during the first half of the season, it is clear that both Williams drivers were at least half a seconds from where they should have been at a car dependent circuit like Melbourne. I know that accepting Damon's lack of circuit knowledge as the reason Jacques was ahead at Melbourne while being miles adrift at many other tracks is an institution here, but the fact is that Damon chuffed it in Australia and did less badly elsewhere. Jacques was made to look rather better than he was, as his F1 career has demomstrated with unbroken monotony.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by davioissimo


Your boy ? what are you talking about im using HHF to put Villenueve in his correct perpective as being a good driver nothing special. no way could JV have driven like frentzen did in that Jordan...Hill beat Villeneuve remember just a couple of seasons before Frenzten trounced Hill at Jordan this hardly makes Villenueve look like a champion its so funny throwing in counter arguements to people with bias opinions, they never listen and keep on and on the defensive but i just like reading the crap they come out with !!! JV has never stood out...never.

How can you compare a has-been Hill with little or no motivation to the Hill that won the WDC? So Frentzen beat (over the) Hill, Villeneuve beat HHF - in the same car. Fact. And before his best as well 1998 was still some of the best performances JV put in but with a shambles of a motor behind him.

[Jumboexpress]

) These people that somehow think that old Panis and slowmo Frentzen are better drivers than Jacques must be on exstacy whooh They always refer to last year as if Panis really beat Villeneuve. The fact is when Villeneuve was teamed up with pathetic whiney Zonta and constantly creamed and whacked by Villeneuve. Some of the guys here and outsiders suspected that Zonta a former F3000 champ must be getting inferior treatment coz for them Zonta aint that bad They have to dig for something to throw at Villeneuve, for some reason that I cant fathom. If that situation was with Ferrari the majority would say the opposite. No elaboration for this one for it aint necessary only fools dont get it. Now here comes Panis a "very desperate" driver whos sole mission is to beat Villeneuve to raise his ego and credentials. Freak accident happened in Australia resulted into a fatality and Villeneuve ended up getting a nagging back pain. Vill never once made his bad back an issue, inspite on all of this Villeneuve still spank Panis but to many its the opposite that happened. For every Villeneuve mistake theres a criticism from the so called fair journalists, and this was the oppurtunity of the JV haters to feast on. The highlight was when Vill was outq by Alonso in a Minardi then all of a sudden the young Spaniard was touted to be the next big thing. Now my thing is if many of the critics think of Vill as a crappy driver who won the WDC in a best car then what Alonso accomplish is nothing at all to be admired. De la Rosa and the 2nd best driver Irvine whos supposed to be adamn good car developer( what a crock) was beaten by a Minardi no one makes a big deal about the driver losing it or they(driver) being crap. This whole **** is pure bias,when Vill won the 97 WDC he was in enormous pressure FIA on his ass but in the end fact still remains that Vill won that 97 WDC and deservingly so. Thats in second year and being paired with the so called Shubeater Frentzen( ) Infact Atlas rated Frentzen to do much better than JV for Frentzen was more seasoned. Results, JV handily humbled Frentzen having only poled once compared to JV's 10 that tells something. All naysayers will come up with some theory just to make JV look ordinary but in the end this **** does not take away all of JV's accomplishment. Success does not soley comes from luck but from ones abilities and self belief with luck only then success is conceived.

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


How can you compare a has-been Hill with little or no motivation to the Hill that won the WDC? So Frentzen beat (over the) Hill, Villeneuve beat HHF - in the same car. Fact. And before his best as well 1998 was still some of the best performances JV put in but with a shambles of a motor behind him.

Thats an age old excuse for being out-driven and you should know it by now..."demotivated" and what makes a driver demotivated ?...Being out driven and wondering what excuse to use...oh and before you bother the other excuse is the car didnt suit his driving style..yeah ?

[Ricardo F1]

No - Hill was driving for money and had no future left. Nice retirement fun a la Eddie Irvine at the moment.

You can't get past the fact that JV spanked HHF in equal cars. End of story.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
No - Hill was driving for money and had no future left. Nice retirement fun a la Eddie Irvine at the moment.

You can't get past the fact that JV spanked HHF in equal cars. End of story.

Yeah. He made HHF look like David Coulthard.

[Ricardo F1]

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by Jumboexpress
) These people that somehow think that old Panis and slowmo Frentzen are better drivers than Jacques must be on exstacy whooh They always refer to last year as if Panis really beat Villeneuve. The fact is when Villeneuve was teamed up with pathetic whiney Zonta and constantly creamed and whacked by Villeneuve. Some of the guys here and outsiders suspected that Zonta a former F3000 champ must be getting inferior treatment coz for them Zonta aint that bad They have to dig for something to throw at Villeneuve, for some reason that I cant fathom. If that situation was with Ferrari the majority would say the opposite. No elaboration for this one for it aint necessary only fools dont get it. Now here comes Panis a "very desperate" driver whos sole mission is to beat Villeneuve to raise his ego and credentials. Freak accident happened in Australia resulted into a fatality and Villeneuve ended up getting a nagging back pain. Vill never once made his bad back an issue, inspite on all of this Villeneuve still spank Panis but to many its the opposite that happened. For every Villeneuve mistake theres a criticism from the so called fair journalists, and this was the oppurtunity of the JV haters to feast on. The highlight was when Vill was outq by Alonso in a Minardi then all of a sudden the young Spaniard was touted to be the next big thing. Now my thing is if many of the critics think of Vill as a crappy driver who won the WDC in a best car then what Alonso accomplish is nothing at all to be admired. De la Rosa and the 2nd best driver Irvine whos supposed to be adamn good car developer( what a crock) was beaten by a Minardi no one makes a big deal about the driver losing it or they(driver) being crap. This whole **** is pure bias,when Vill won the 97 WDC he was in enormous pressure FIA on his ass but in the end fact still remains that Vill won that 97 WDC and deservingly so. Thats in second year and being paired with the so called Shubeater Frentzen( ) Infact Atlas rated Frentzen to do much better than JV for Frentzen was more seasoned. Results, JV handily humbled Frentzen having only poled once compared to JV's 10 that tells something. All naysayers will come up with some theory just to make JV look ordinary but in the end this **** does not take away all of JV's accomplishment. Success does not soley comes from luck but from ones abilities and self belief with luck only then success is conceived.

Frentzen got around the smae points as JV 98 and beat him every year since explain that little fact!
I just used Frentzen as an obvious choice of a bashed not so glamorous driver that when you look at it without publicity (his dad was good) eyes there aint much difference Panis has prooved as quick even Trulli whipped Panis and Fisi miles faster than Button whose not as far behind Trulli JV's gotta do better than being beaten by Hill and slightly better results then Frentzen 98 and beating Zonta to impress me and as for that manoeuvre around the outside of Schumacher the Schumi bashers will say Villenueves God and the Schumi fans will say any driver who chose to attempt that at that point couldve pulled it off and Schumi gave him room..well had to cos it was dangerous not to...really dangerous...JV couldve just backed off at any time depending on how much grip he felt through the car and space etc

[Ricardo F1]

Frentzen got around the smae points as JV 98 and beat him every year since explain that little fact!

Uh Schumacher's beaten JV in EVERY year since 1997. Wouldn't have anything to do with the car would it???

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Uh Schumacher's beaten JV in EVERY year since 1997. Wouldn't have anything to do with the car would it???

Its no good bringing in the car when it suits when people were talking about bare facts, when i see people treating every driver equally and just judging their driving instead of popular names or if theyre a bit weird or mouthy treating it like a soap opera they wont need to make car excuses or set up or demotivation excuses etc etc its only the F1 soap opera loving people that make these excuses.

[Ricardo F1]

The only BARE facts there are in your argument is that in equal cars JV beat HHF. End of story (again). You can't compare a 99 Jordan with a 99 BAR but I'll tell you what 10/10 people on the grid would say. The Jordan was better.

[Paste]

Originally posted by Todd


For all that is made of JV's "brilliant" debut in F1, it wasn't a case of him performing that well so much as it was a case of Damon Hill grossly underperforming. If you look at the qualifying gaps from Williams to the rest during the first half of the season, it is clear that both Williams drivers were at least half a seconds from where they should have been at a car dependent circuit like Melbourne. I know that accepting Damon's lack of circuit knowledge as the reason Jacques was ahead at Melbourne while being miles adrift at many other tracks is an institution here, but the fact is that Damon chuffed it in Australia and did less badly elsewhere. Jacques was made to look rather better than he was, as his F1 career has demomstrated with unbroken monotony.

Wow, you can't even give the guy a little credit? I don't understand why you find the need to dimish EVERY SINGLE ONE of his accomplishments.

[jimm]

Originally posted by davioissimo


Your boy ? what are you talking about im using HHF to put Villenueve in his correct perpective as being a good driver nothing special. no way could JV have driven like frentzen did in that Jordan...Hill beat Villeneuve remember just a couple of seasons before Frenzten trounced Hill at Jordan this hardly makes Villenueve look like a champion its so funny throwing in counter arguements to people with bias opinions, they never listen and keep on and on the defensive but i just like reading the crap they come out with !!! JV has never stood out...never.

Hill, in his 4th full season in f1 and at Williams, beat JV in JV's FIRST year in F1 where (while he had alot of testing) he had only SEEN about 1/2 the tracks on the schedule. Even with this, Hill did not beat JV that convencingly.

1996 Hill: 8 wins 9 poles JV: 4 wins 3poles Qual: Hill 12/4 Race: tie 8/8 points: Hill +19

1997 HHF: 1 win 1 pole JV 7 wins 9 poles Qual: JV13/4 Race JV 9/8 Points: JV +41

1998 HHF o wins 0 poles JV 0 wins 0 poles (1 podium) Qual: JV 9/7 Race: JV 9/7 Points: JV +4
1997-1998 Qual: JV 22/11 Race: 18/15 Points: + 45

In his first year against the WDC favorite JV did pretty well. The only place the HHF improved against JV was in qualifying. Really, HHF should have been able to give him a run for his money in '97 but did not. As far as 1999 HHF vs Hill, it was obvious that Hill was through before the start of the year. He almost retired before the 1/2 point in the season so comparisons between HHF and Hill are meaningless.

Try this on for size, patrick head and Frank williams have seen Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Jones, Mario Andretti, Keke Rosberg and Carlos Ruetemann in there cars and worked with them. That is over 100 wins and 14 WDC. I think they have enough expereince to judge talent. THey wanted to keep JV and Head was not speaking to HHF by the end of 1998. I think that says it all.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Todd


For all that is made of JV's "brilliant" debut in F1, it wasn't a case of him performing that well so much as it was a case of Damon Hill grossly underperforming. If you look at the qualifying gaps from Williams to the rest during the first half of the season, it is clear that both Williams drivers were at least half a seconds from where they should have been at a car dependent circuit like Melbourne. I know that accepting Damon's lack of circuit knowledge as the reason Jacques was ahead at Melbourne while being miles adrift at many other tracks is an institution here, but the fact is that Damon chuffed it in Australia and did less badly elsewhere. Jacques was made to look rather better than he was, as his F1 career has demomstrated with unbroken monotony.

I'm sure you would have done much better? Why do you think Hill "chuffed" it? could it be that he could not use his greater track knowledge to beat JV at this track? What about the fact that JV was ahead in most races after GB? Sounds like he was starting pick up a little speed to me.

[Mat]

Originally posted by davioissimo
Villeneuve was out driven by Frentzen in 1998 Hill was better than Villenueve albeit his first year.......i always watch the bits 'in-between' whose doing what out of the limelight and in 1998 Frentzen was really solid and at least a match for Villenueve....nearly 2 seconds quicker than him at Monaco

Originally posted by davioissimo

who gives a toss about points in bad cars

Originally posted by davioissimo

Frentzen got around the same points as JV 98 and beat him every year since explain that little fact!

I thought you paid attention to the bits 'in-between'. Then how do you go from saying you dont give a toss about points in bad cars to comparing the amount of points HHF earned at Jordan to the amount JV earned at BAR. Why dont YOU start getting your facts straight!

Mat

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by jimm



Hill, in his 4th full season in f1 and at Williams, beat JV in JV's FIRST year in F1 where (while he had alot of testing) he had only SEEN about 1/2 the tracks on the schedule. Even with this, Hill did not beat JV that convencingly.

1996 Hill: 8 wins 9 poles JV: 4 wins 3poles Qual: Hill 12/4 Race: tie 8/8 points: Hill +19

1997 HHF: 1 win 1 pole JV 7 wins 9 poles Qual: JV13/4 Race JV 9/8 Points: JV +41

1998 HHF o wins 0 poles JV 0 wins 0 poles (1 podium) Qual: JV 9/7 Race: JV 9/7 Points: JV +4
1997-1998 Qual: JV 22/11 Race: 18/15 Points: + 45

In his first year against the WDC favorite JV did pretty well. The only place the HHF improved against JV was in qualifying. Really, HHF should have been able to give him a run for his money in '97 but did not. As far as 1999 HHF vs Hill, it was obvious that Hill was through before the start of the year. He almost retired before the 1/2 point in the season so comparisons between HHF and Hill are meaningless.

Try this on for size, patrick head and Frank williams have seen Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet, Jones, Mario Andretti, Keke Rosberg and Carlos Ruetemann in there cars and worked with them. That is over 100 wins and 14 WDC. I think they have enough expereince to judge talent. THey wanted to keep JV and Head was not speaking to HHF by the end of 1998. I think that says it all.

Here come the excuses again is it you next who'll say the car didnt match his driving style or the other guy got preferential treatment ?...JV is good yes but I assure you the only reason people follow jacques is because it is perceived that he's a bit like his Dad perception is so so easily biased if there was such a person as Gilles Panis you think that would have no significance ?
Its not a soap opera this F1 thing !
How can you just say that Hill was past it..how do you know ? it was only a couple of year after winning the championship..you know as well as I do that as soon as he had to drive against a faster driver he lost the plot as many do...Coulthard has not got any worse he's just being matched at the moment by a new driver now your reaction to that surely wont be that DC is past it not Raik is fast will it ?

[Loz]

Originally posted by davioissimo



Frentzen got around the smae points as JV 98 and beat him every year since explain that little fact!

Its funny, but no one will ever be able to explain that since it is not true. HHF beat JV in 1999, but in 2000 JV was 7th, and HHF was 13th in the final standings. In 2001 JV was 7th and HHF was 9th in the final standings.

Are you truly this ignorant about F1? Why do you bother to try and discuss F1 on this board? You just look ignorant. Now I can't blame you for not knowing everything, but the fact that you must know how ignorant you are, but still do not even bother to verify your own "facts" leaves me dumbfounded.

Go learn about F1, then come back and maybe someone will take you seriosly. Anyone who argues with you is just wasting time arguing with a child.

Loz

[jimm]

Originally posted by davioissimo


Here come the excuses again is it you next who'll say the car didnt match his driving style or the other guy got preferential treatment ?...JV is good yes but I assure you the only reason people follow jacques is because it is perceived that he's a bit like his Dad perception is so so easily biased if there was such a person as Gilles Panis you think that would have no significance ?
Its not a soap opera this F1 thing !
How can you just say that Hill was past it..how do you know ? it was only a couple of year after winning the championship..you know as well as I do that as soon as he had to drive against a faster driver he lost the plot as many do...Coulthard has not got any worse he's just being matched at the moment by a new driver now your reaction to that surely wont be that DC is past it not Raik is fast will it ?

Whatever, how can you get around the fact that Head, who like I said, had direct expereince with the best F1 drivers of the last 20 years bar MS and he wanted JV to stay and HHF shot?

How can you get around the fact that Hill was so demotivated he almost quit by 1/2 season. This all over the press at the time. Search Atlas's past issues from the time.

[davioissimo]

And I didnt need to recal those fact that you recalled Jim about 1998 to know it was pretty evenly matched I remember the races...no-one was taking a blind bit of notice of the Williams' that year cos of their engine but I watched carefully how JVi really did not show much more class than Frentzen or anyone else. Those are not outstanding statistics for 98 and since HHF was no longer a Williams rookie it obviously showed he then moved on to Jordan having his best year it all follows logically HHF is not the best in F1 ! neither is Panis but neither by a long way more importantly is JVi

[jimm]

Originally posted by davioissimo
And I didnt need to recal those fact that you recalled Jim about 1998 to know it was pretty evenly matched I remember the races...no-one was taking a blind bit of notice of the Williams' that year cos of their engine but I watched carefully how JVi really did not show much more class than Frentzen or anyone else. Those are not outstanding statistics for 98 and since HHF was no longer a Williams rookie it obviously showed he then moved on to Jordan having his best year it all follows logically HHF is not the best in F1 ! neither is Panis but neither by a long way more importantly is JVi

The thing is that those were just the finishing positions. JV was the only one of the Williams drivers to actually take the fight to the leaders on occasion that year. JV lead MS on merit a couple of times and was in a position to win in Canada and even had a william's only podium that year (germany). Sounds like he was the stand out at Williams to me. AS far as Panis goes, he has not exactly beaten JV has he? I'm not saying that JV is the best driver in F1, I am in disagreement with your point about comparisons to HHF as are Frank Williams, Patrick Head and many here it appears.