71 replies to this topic

[Brun]

This car was recently on display at an Antwerp event, where it was claimed to be an Auto Union Typ A. I've never seen it before, but I remember spotting some pictures of an identical one in an article about restorers Crosthwaite & Gardiner... is it a new replica?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Four replicas were built by that company and this car looks like one of them. Auto Union never produced cars with such high finish in 1933/34 because they did not yet have the technology to do so.

[Michael Müller]

Considering some of C & G's restorations, may be the number of 4 can be increased ....!?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Did some more checking:
My bookstore here in Honolulu carried a brand new book about the Crosthwaite & Gardiner creations under the Auto Union banner. I took the plastic wrappers off and looked only at the pictures to find out that they manufactured:
One streamliner
One mountain climber Type D or C
One Grand Prix Type B or C
One Grand Prix Type D

The car shown in the pic here is a Type A, so who then built it? Without a clue and relying on my gut feeling, it is the mysterious P-Wagen, which appeared in an article of the July 2001 Motor Sport. It is a nice showpiece, as long as you do not try to fire up the engine.

[Gary C]

yeah, that replica that was in 'Motor Sport' was just a joke. No engines numbers, no chassis number etc., etc. Surely SOMEONE at MS would have smelt a rat???

[Barry Boor]

During a recent discussion with Roger Clark and David McKinney, the opinion was proffered that to have something that was maybe not as good as it could be is better than not having it at all.

The subject of that discussion was not a car, but I feel that the point is pertinent to things like non-authentic Auto Unions.

Personally I would much rather look at something like the car in the above picture, knowing that it wasn't built in 1935 or whatever, rather than not having any car to look at at all.

But then I'm just an old Phillistine; or should it be Phyllis Stein?

[Michael Müller]

Barry, in general I agree with you, but looking at a car declared 1935 with the ugly idea in mind that the real year was 2001 is something different.

[Barry Boor]

but looking at a car declared 1935 with the ugly idea in mind that the real year was 2001 is something different.

Absolutely. Like most people, I cannot stand being fooled, or rather, I hate it when people attempt wool-pulling!

[dmj]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Did some more checking:
My bookstore here in Honolulu carried a brand new book about the Crosthwaite & Gardiner creations under the Auto Union banner. I took the plastic wrappers off and looked only at the pictures to find out that they manufactured:
One streamliner
One mountain climber Type D or C
One Grand Prix Type B or C
One Grand Prix Type D

The car shown in the pic here is a Type A, so who then built it? Without a clue and relying on my gut feeling, it is the mysterious P-Wagen, which appeared in an article of the July 2001 Motor Sport. It is a nice showpiece, as long as you do not try to fire up the engine.

This is the last replica C&G made for Audi, as explained in last Classic and Sportscar. Car will have a "racing" debut later this year in Ingolstadt.

[dretceterini]

The Type As had fabric sides, so no wonder this car has such a high finish; the sides are metal

[David J Jones]

Barry

I hope Phil E Stein would be more appropriate.

[karlcars]

This is indeed the last replica that C&G has built. It was ordered and paid for by the Belgian importer of Audi, D'Ieteren Freres. They were told that Audi would allow them to have their own car BUT it had to be a Type A, because none such existed and it would be great to have one.

I agree that the very first A had some fabric panels, but I'm pretty sure that with alloy panels this car is authentic.

It is staggeringly, heartbreakingly gorgeous. I have just come this very day from its official handover to D'Ieteren in running condition by C&G at Buxted. I have to assume that they hadn't finished their work when it was shown in Antwerp. They fired it up, and it was pretty awesome with its twin pipes.

I have a great affection for this car because its design and mine date from the same year!

[Holger Merten]

Interesting thing, I know that the Belgian importer of Audi, D'Ieteren Freresis a great fan of the four rings, but to rebuilt a project like that? Okay.

Here we go on from my mind.

There have been three AU Silverarrows in 1990. (Without Cisitalia and Eastern Germany interesting projects on V12 after WW2:

1.)C-TYPE in the Deutsches Museum
2.) D-Type from CZ, afterwards in England
3.)C/D Type in Riga

Now we have
1.) The C-Type from DT. Museum was restored (2nd time after 1979/80) and copied by Audi, so we have two. (Audi and Dt.Museum)

2.) D-Type from CZ - I think one was sold in 1991/92 to Asia, standing arround in Frankfurt in a garage, very safe.

3.) C/D Type from Riga (Bergrennwagen) copied too by Audi, the original is in Ingolstadt, the copy (may there are more than one) in Riga.

4.) The Karassik Cars: a) an D-Type from 1938 and b.) an D-Type from 1939 founded in Russia in the 80/90s-

5.) THE STREAMLINER: A singke unique Replica from Audi to celebrate the Birthday.....

?6.) And the Replica of a late A-Type, known for the first view like used at the GP of Germany in 1934. But as Hans said_which engine, from where, it was a smaler V 16, than the other replicas based on the C-Types: all that without Audi? Interesting thing. Ask somebody - only for the engine - what do you know more Karl? As you know as well as I know, that Audi went on a big shopping tour in the 90s. (which was okay, cause they had the money and tradition to fullfill the brand values with blood- first clas for marketing standards. which was okay which such a tradition -but stay serios -with tradition and with marketing)

[dretceterini]

fabric panels...metal panels...who cares...I take any of them...or just a drive..


Stu

[Doug Nye]

ONLY £400,000 each - an utter, absolute, stunning bargain-basement price...

DCN

[Vitesse2]

I'm sure you could get the one on page 226 of the July Classic & Sports Car for cheaper than that! Gosh - a

"Silver Arrow" 1933/34 P Rennwagen Lang Heck (Long Tail) Grand Prix Model. Spare V16 engines, two race, one display ....

for sale!

Now why does that ring a bell?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Richard,
Is that the mysterious P-Wagen, which appeared in an article of the July 2001 Motor Sport?

[dretceterini]

Someone want to laon me the money

Stu

[ReynardDave]

Here are the Audi's I have in my collection. The first is my wallpaper.

[Viss1]

ReynardDave - were the last 2 pictures taken at Meadowbrook Hall '00?

[ReynardDave]

Sorry Viss, don't know.

[Viss1]

Originally posted by ReynardDave
Sorry Viss, don't know.

It's not -my mistake. I realized after posting that there were two Silver Arrows at Meadowbrook (a concours in Rochester, MI, USA), not Auto Unions. The grounds look similar, though, and the Chrysler banner threw me.

[Racer.Demon]

Looks more like the AU celebratory display in front of Goodwood House during the 1999 Festival of Speed.

[Holger Merten]

Racer.Demon


you are right, these second and the third one are the official pictures. The C-Type (It's the car from the Deutsches Museum)is a foto taken by Audi for a press release.

The other ones are the hillclimbing car (V-16 Zyl from 1939 -the Riga car, this is the original one from the Audi collection, the copy went baclk to Riga ). Built up from components of the D-type body and a c-type engine, and some other modifications, for example the body is smaller than the one of the GP version, cause there was not so much fuell needed for those short hill tracks.

And the D-TYpe from 1939 from the Karassiks, one of the of the cars from the Audi collection.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
..... the body is smaller than the one of the GP version.....

Holger - You mean a shorter wheelbase? Do you have measurements compared to the 2850 mm wheelbase use with the regular Typ D chassis?

[ReynardDave]

Here's the C&G website. Interesting stuff.

http://www.mdr.co.uk/candg/candg.html

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
The other ones are the hillclimbing car (V-16 Zyl from 1939 -the Riga car, this is the original one from the Audi collection, the copy went baclk to Riga ). Built up from components of the D-type body and a c-type engine, and some other modifications, for example the body is smaller than the one of the GP version, cause there was not so much fuell needed for those short hill tracks.

For a look from the back, here's another nice picture taken by my friend Frank at the Festival: http://8w.forix.com/bergwagen.jpg

[dretceterini]

So, when do I get to drive one? (either will do!)

Stu

[Brun]

So, when do I get to drive one? (either will do!)

Join the queue. I'm first

[Holger Merten]

Hans, there is still an answer, I have to give you some facts you where asking for. No,not a shorter wheelbase, a smaller fueltank. If you compare the bodies -right and left to the driver- you will see, that the "bergrennwagen" (Hillclimbing car) s smaller than the other D-types. This comes from the small fuel tanks, only behind the driver. The Racing D-Types had one fuel-tank behind the driver and also two fuel tanks beside him. So just compare the line, up to the wheels, the racing D-types had dressed "dressed" the body to the wheels much more, than the D-type "Bergrennwagen". You cann see that in the book "Auto Union Grand Prix Wagen" of Stefan Knittel. Compare the pictures on page 67 and on page 81. Could would find the differencies very easy. The D-Type in 1939 based on a shortend C-Type Base (I don't know the measurement) with tricky, swing-axle rear suspension had been replaced by modified D-Type chassis with the De-Dion rear suspension and the latest four-leading shoe brakes. And the the mighty Porsche designed V-16 supercharged engine was retained.

So, I couldn't give you the perfect answer, but here are some other facts, you might like to read:

18 Auto union Racing Cars were transported to rusia in 1945. But how many were built. Here are several opions. As we know that AU had less money than MB, they spend not only money, they also used parts. We can categorize three types of AU Silverarrows: The Racing cars, the Streamliners and the Bergrennwagen. So it was possible to change parts or use used material. If you know how AU was organized, than thsi must be possible, because no driver had ever his own car. The parts were changed. And here is a categorie:


1934: 5 Cars
1935: 7 Cars
1936: 12 Cars
1937: 12 Cars
1938: 16 Cars
1939: 15 Cars (but not a Type E)


For example for the races in 1938 it was necessary to have 8 Racing Cars and 4 Training Cars, and as we know they had four cars for Hill Climbing. So you could imagine, they couldn't place 16 cars in front of the factory. No car ever was used with the same components of gerabox, Rootscompressor, engine and so on.

[Holger Merten]

May I have to correct the last post, my source talks about 18 cars which were transported to Russia. May they were not all AU Silverarrows?

I read my source once again and before I'm incorrect, I correct myself. Sorry...

[Mark Beckman]

A piece of steel 5" long by 1/2" wide is no different in 1934 than it is in 2002.

If a car is replicated properly then I give thanks to those who have put their personal effort into allowing me to see history that otherwise I would not have the oppurtunity to.

It is Human emotion and (more likely) greed that place unbeleivable values on "originals" and I would be happy to have either sitting in my shed and feel much safer driving the replica.

[Vitesse2]

Mark: I think we are all in agreement with you here. What is despised here is the feeding frenzy pf what became known as the Gordon Gecko Gang (thanks Don!) who drove up the price of classic road and racing cars to ludicrous levels and inspired much fakery and fraud in the name of "investment".

It still goes on today - just ask Allen Brown, or Doug Nye. And take a look at Rainer Nyberg's thread about a mystery Lola, whch was wrecked at the Ring in 1969 but apparently has been resurrected, despite the original chassis frame having sat in Picko Troberg's back yard for over 30 years!

[Holger Merten]

Just to finish the discussion:

Something about the Type A. The author said, that Audi had the idea to rebuilt that car.

If you want to knowmore: more?

[Holger Merten]

In the last issue of the UK audi magazine, there is one page fpr the recreated Typ A Auto Union.

Here is the text:

"British Expertise recreates prewar Auto Union

The remarkable seven-year, six-car Auto Union V16 racing car restoration project undertaken by British reatoration company Crostwaite & Gardiner culminated this summer in the handover of the world’s only Auto Union V16 single-seater grand Prix car to the Belgian D’Ieteren Museum in Brussels. D’Ieteren is the privately-owned Belgian Audi importer.

East Sussex-based Crostwaite & Gardiner combined with body specialists Roach Manufacturing from Hampshire, to painstakingly recreate Hans Stuck’s 1934 German Grand Prix winning car. Using archived photos and technical drawings . the renowned British company made almost everything apart from the tyres. Windscreen glass and spark plugs “in-house”. None of the original A-types survive.

Conceived by Professor Ferdinand Porsche as the P-wagen, the Auto Union A-type was the first racing car to carry Audi’s Four Ring badge. Even back in 1934. the aluminium and fabric-bodied Auto Union was capable of over 170mph courtesy of it’s powerful 4.36-litre V16 engine. Driven by Hans Stuck at the Avus track in Berlin on 6 march 1934, the model broke three world records, including an average speed of nearly 135mph over a124-mile (200 km) distance. Stuck then took the A-type to victory in the 1934 German, Swiss and Czechoslovak Grands Prix.
The A-type. With single-leaf sprung swing axle, was replaced by the more powerful B-type with torsion bar rear suspension for the 1935 season. That in turn evolved into the 6.0-litre, 520bhp C-type in which Bernd Rosemeyer dominated the 1936 GP season to win the European Championship, equivalent to today’s World title.

As described in detail in the autumn 1997 issue of this magazine, in 1995 Audi tradition commissioned Crostwaite & Gardiner to restore the only extant all-original Auto Union V16, the ex-HP Müller mountain climb car. An exact recreation was built in parallel to replace the original in the Riga Museum in Lativa. Two recreated 1936 V16 C-types followed, one for Audi Tradition, the other for the Volkswagen Museum, Wolfsburg. The pièce de résistance for Crostwaite & Gardiner and Roach Manufacturing was their mangnificent recreation of the 1937 streamlined record breaker. Now displayed in the Audi museum mobile in Ingolstadt."

[Holger Merten]

The text talks about the car shown in front on the photo in post 35.

What I diddn't know, is that Volkswagen also had an Typ C for their new museum. Now we have one more Auto Union.

[marion5drsn]

Nuts to the outside, does it have anything like the real engine and does it acually run ? I mean run, as in race up a hill or something!
M.L. Anderson

[Holger Merten]

No, the existing Auto Unions with V16 engine don't have something originial. Only the hillclimbing car, which survived in Riga is nearly original. But this shown Typ A, all Typ C (including the car from the German Museum, which has some originial parts) and the Typ C Streamliner, they are all replikas.

On the other hand the Typ D Auto Unions, which were founded in russia and therefore, they are less or more original, also the engines are original.


All of them take part on oldtimer events or races (Goodwood, Klausen, Nürburgring, and so on). I don't know if the Typ A ever took part foor such an event.

[Pedro 917]

About the 1934 Auto Union Grand Prix Type A : During the weekend of 15-16 June 2002, there was an International Cars Concours in Brecht (between Antwerp and the Dutch border) called Fascination Cars. The event was sponsored by D'Ieteren who, like already mentioned, is the Belgian importer of Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche. Mr. Roland D'Ieteren loves historic cars and, being an expert, was member of the international jury at this "Concours d'Elegance".
I was there and took some pictures of the Auto Union who was on display in an Audi pavillion. In the afternoon however, they took the car out and fired it up. I'm pretty sure everyone there had an "eargasm"....
On the picture with the opened engine cover, Roland D'Ieteren can be seen checking the cockpit.









OK, it's a replica, but what a beauty.........

[jarama]

Pedro,

wonderful pictures. Thankyou.

Carles.

[Holger Merten]

Pedro, really wonderful pics.

I thought this replica should be that one Stuck used for the speedrecords at Avus in march 1934.

But this car is not a longtail Typ A, it's a shorttail Typ A. And it has no wings behind the frontwheels like some of the first Typ A have at the beginning of the 1934 season. Looks much more like the car used at the Nürburgring?

But the look at the shorttail ist great with that view at the special excaust pipe at the right and the left.

[IMV]

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Now we have


2.) D-Type from CZ - I think one was sold in 1991/92 to Asia, standing arround in Frankfurt in a garage, very safe.

I guess all of you will like following picture probably from the middle of seventies made near Prague. I obtained it a few weeks ago, unfortunatelly without any details about author, date,...

[Holger Merten]

[Holger Merten]

Need some time to reply.

www.wonnderful.imv


A great picture, wow


Would be interesting to know about more about the details of the picture.....
THE 1938 Typ D,
I'm really impressed, great, wonderful, wow. Thanks to IMV and to TNF.

@Brun, great, that your are now in Prague.;)

[Doug Nye]

Wonderful ly atmospheric shot - is it of the Zdenek Pohl car??? The scene is that which we all absolutely dreamed of discovering through the '50s, '60s and '70s...and today the darned things are so commonplace we tend to say, oh look, there's a V12 Auto Union, coo, WOW, LOOK THERE!!!! A CD-Panhard!!!!!

The Pohl car was the one which went to Colin Crabbe/Antique Automobiles with some cock-and-bull story about the V12 engine having been located in a cellar near Nottingham where it had been hidden since the time of the 1938 Donington GP? The car later went to Neil Corner, Charles Lucas, Christie's auction house (unsold) and is now said to reside in an anonymous collection whose principals keep it in a bonded warehouse somewhere on its native soil....;)

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Yes Doug, this picture is all, we wanted to find. And in between taking THAT PICURE. Great.

In all my time investigating in AU history I never saw somethimg like that. Cause, this may is the first (published) picture of an AU Silverarrow after WW2. It fits into 30 years.

[Brun]

What the f***

That's one hell of a picture. Cool cool cool cool cool thanks for posting it!

[Dennis Hockenbury]

As a factory authorized and acknowledged replica, the Type A is simply stunning. Yes Doug, if I had a spare 400,000 lying about, I would certainly have one in my garage.

The photo by IMV is very interesting to say the least. I could almost hear Holger's chin hit the floor.

I would certainly like to know more, and I know that I'm not alone in that sentiment.

[dretceterini]

Ok, if I can't have the Auto Union, I'll take the CD Panhard mentioned by Doug

[IMV]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IMV
[B]I guess all of you will like following picture probably from the middle of seventies made near Prague. I obtained it a few weeks ago, unfortunatelly without any details about author, date,... Well, here is the next one...