19 replies to this topic

[GBORSARI]

A few years back, I was trying to figure out which was the very first ferrari car built. There have been some threads about this on the TNF but I'd like to mention some facts I got from friends close to Ferrrari who live in Italy.
One said that the first Real Ferrari was the AAC 815, one of which still remains with a glorious body by touring.
The other one stated that in his opinion the first real ferrari was the Alfa Romeo "Bi-Motore".

I guess now in the Ferrari world, there is a big controversy over which one is the frist one of the 1947 cars. I think Doug Nye had a good article about OO2 in Classic Car mag.

Mark

[Paul Medici]

The Tipo 125 S (#01C); first appearance on May 11, 1947, at Piacenza.
It was the first car he built that he could actually call a Ferrari.

PJM

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Paul Medici
The Tipo 125 S (#01C); first appearance on May 11, 1947, at Piacenza.
It was the first car he built that he could actually call a Ferrari.

PJM

Only because he had an agreement with Alfa Romeo not to use his own name at the time the Auto Avia 815 was built. Even though the 815 didn't carry his name, I would consider it the first Ferrari, since it was a Ferrari-designed chassis. The Bi-motore cars were modified Alfa Romeo chassis, even though they were built on Scuderia Ferrari premises, so they could be considered the first Ferrari-built cars, but not the first real Ferraris.

[Paul Medici]

Vitesse2

I am aware of his agreement with Alfa and will accept the AAC 815 as the first car built by
Ferrari after he left Alfa. However, would you agree it was not the first Ferrari built?

I think words are sometimes more complicated than the chassis number of an old Ferrari

PJM

[Vitesse2]

Sorry Paul - didn't mean to insult your intelligence! I knew you would know that, but I figured it might be news to our new member! Welcome to TNF, by the way, GBORSARI!

We're getting into semantics here really but I think your analysis of it sums it up very well Paul

But as to the first "real" Ferrari - well, who knows? It's either the 815 or the 125 S depending on your personal view ...

[Barry Boor]

I would welcome GBORSARI too, except that I happen to know that he has been around since December 2000. He used to be just borsari, but is clearly trying to increase the American presence in the database by enrolling twice!

Foiled you, you soon-to-be-ex-teacher, you! (Hi Vals!)

[Paul Medici]

Vitesse2

Absolutely no insult taken! I sometimes have the habit of being a little too direct



PJM

[Doug Nye]

I presume the name comes from Giulio Borsari - ex-Maserati, Centro Sud, Ferrari mechanic and project leader? What a super chap to follow...

DCN

[Barry Boor]

Correct, Doug.

[Michael Müller]

I agree with Paul, # 01C with the barchetta-like body was the first Ferrari. Although manufactured nearly parallel with # 02C (the cycle fender car), # 01C not only has the lower telaio number, but also stage of assembly was always somewhat ahead. However, for the first race at Piacenza on May 11 both cars had been entered, but Farina refused to race # 02C claiming it to be inferior to Cortese's # 01C (which in fact was just the other way round!).

Surely the 815 was the first car built by Ferrari, but it was not the first Ferrari. The Volkswagen was constructed by Prof. Porsche, and the first prototype assembled under his supervision, but it was not the first Porsche, or?

[Patrick Italiano]

I would just remember a few facts about this issue:

- The bimotore is undoubtly the first car wearing the Ferrari badge on the front mask (unlike the Alfa museum replica BTW), but otherwise it's obviously made out of Alfa parts.

- Other GP cars were built or modified in Modena during the thirties. The most famous is the 158. But no one would qualify it as a Ferrari since it wore the Alfa badge and was actually entered by Alfa Corse in 1938 when the SF had been handed over by Alfa management (1/1/1938). But the 158 was designed in Modena and there were also built the first prototypes, even with provisory parts like steel engine blocks. Ferrari had then not the foundry facilities needed to cast the blocks, and that was done by Alfa for the later cars.

- The Auto Avio Costruzioni 815 isn't called Ferrari as already mentioned in this thread because the Alfa-Ferrari parting agreement prevented it, but one could also argue that a major difference with the post-war Ferraris is that the 815 engine was made out of two Fiat engines. So, indeed, only in 1947 appeared a car with the three distinctive features: Ferrari badge and name, chassis by Ferrari and engine also by Ferrari.

[GBORSARI]

Guys, thanks for all the input.

Yes, Doug, GBORSARI is in honor of my motor racing hero, Gulio Borsari, who was with those teams you mentioned.

Not be be a wise ass or hair-splitter. but how much of a car, or rather what percentage of a car, has to be made by the "manufacturer" to be called a "Whatever" ?

The AAC 815 had many parts built outside the 'ferrari' factory, but how much does it take to disqualify it as a real Ferrari ?

From what I have been lead to believe, the Alfa BI-MOTORE was really an Alfa in name only, and built amost entirely by the guys working under Enzo in Modena.

and, while we are on the subject. It is assumed that the car s/n 01c was the first Ferrari, but which car is it now ????

Mark

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano
So, indeed, only in 1947 appeared a car with the three distinctive features: Ferrari badge and name, chassis by Ferrari and engine also by Ferrari.

And about # 01C - there is strong evidence that this has been renumbered to # 010I in early 1948, but I will refuse any comments on the 166 Spyder Corsa bearing this number today.

[Alvega]

IIRC there was a report at the "Cavallino" magazine a few years ago on the disassembly and refurbishment of the original AAC 815 back at Maranello.

They reported at the time that, contrary to popular belive, the engine features a purpose built cast block and a custom made machined cranckshaft. The only FIAT parts in the engine are the cylinder heads.

[GBORSARI]

Patric,

I'm just guessing right now, but I think I remember that the first CHASSIS of the 125s was not built by Ferrari, but by GilCo ????

Mark

[Michael Müller]

Not the chassis, only the frame.

[David McKinney]

Sure looks like a chassis to me

[Michael Müller]

Depends how one defines the term "chassis". In our language it means frame plus axles and platform.

[dretceterini]

Gilco built all the Ferrari chassis up to 1958, maybe they really shuld be called Gilco/Ferraris!

Dott.Ing.Stu Schaller
etceterinidoctor@yahoo.com

or

dretceterini@hotmail.com

[Patrick Italiano]

Welcome to TNF, Stu.