23 replies to this topic

[dynamite7]

This is a stupid post and may be inaccurate

Justin Wilson's first year he was not much more then a mid-fielder at best, and it took him three years before he improved his knowledge of the set-ups to win the championship.

Most of the champion's in FIA F3000 seem to start off as mid-fielders and compete for at least two seasons before they can win.

The drivers can only seem to manage 2nd or 3rd at best in their first years of the series (I think that Alonoso came 4th and Webber came 3rd in their first F3000 years), and then if they don't go on to win the next year as expected their F1 careers seem to end up ruined, unless a patriot team owner gives you a drive like Stoddart with Mark Webber.

Also while the grids may have been over-flowing in the main series in 1999, they are fairly pitiful around the same level as CART with 20 cars. Heaps of teams pulling out, and the top "Euro" F3000 teams not moving up due to the increase in cost and level of competition.

The 2002 cars certainly look like modern F1 cars, really similar to the 1998 Ferrari, but the mechicals are supposed to be out of the 1980s, and the engines are a 10-year old design. The cars must be really difficult to setup, because otherwise these drivers wouldn't struggle to be competitive, and the teams be so incosistent, ie. 2nd one race, 15th the next.

All the drivers seem to be pay drivers, and most of them were F3 mid-fielders. But the F3 and FR champions get beaten by the F3 mid-fielders due to the difficulty in setting the car up and vast differences in the abilities of the teams even though it's supposed to be a control formula, and that makes the F3/FR champions look bad IMHO.

[vroom-vroom]

I agree. F3000 has become a lamentable series with poor public interest, high costs, and is turning into a black hole for good drivers from lower formulae = lost talent.

I say scrap it entirely, and solidify a simple route to F1: e.g. Kart > international F3 > F1. F3 drivers seem to have no problem making the jump to F1.

Other low cost spec formulae should be confined to national series, IMO.

[lustigson]

I'd like to see a number of international/continental Formula 3 championships, i.e. European, North-American, Asia/Pacific. They wouldn't necessarily have to follow the F1 calendar, if you ask me.

[Andre]

Scrap international F3000. The costs are too high, the ROI too little. Most the drivers complain F3000 cars aren't anything like any other cars they have ever driven. F3 cars are much closer to F1 cars in terms of handling.
Scrap international F3000 and create an international F3 championship with Macau and Zandvoort on the calendar.

[AlesiUK]

the demise of f3000 is sad.it used to be a great series,i was involved in it from 88-91 thru my father and i loved it.the racing was great,the cars fast and the circuit s were also very good.le-mans,pau,birmingham(remember that?).most of the drivers in that grid went on to f1 in some way.
i also recall the first car newey designed was the march f3000 car in 89.it was beautifull and led him to better things as we know.

[AlesiGOD]

I think F3000(and F1 for that matter) could be great again.. some of the best racing I have seen was in F3000...

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Andre
Scrap international F3000. The costs are too high, the ROI too little. Most the drivers complain F3000 cars aren't anything like any other cars they have ever driven. F3 cars are much closer to F1 cars in terms of handling.
Scrap international F3000 and create an international F3 championship with Macau and Zandvoort on the calendar.

Umm, the have all new cars this year, and I haven't hear a single quote like this about the new cars, in fact I have heard the complete opposite.

Its had an overhaul this year guys, lets at least leave it a few races into the season before judging it!

[Liam]

Exactly.
Perhaps if it was shown on the same TV networks that show the F1 qualifying it might get more interest.
I don't have Eurosport anymore, so I can't watch, but I'm going to go watch live BTCC and F3 instead.

[taran]

Originally posted by AlesiUK
[Bi also recall the first car newey designed was the march f3000 car in 89.it was beautifull and led him to better things as we know. [/B]

Your recollection is somewhat off ;) .

Newey was the lead designer of the March cars in CART in the mid 80's and race engineer at Team Kraco with Micheal Andretti. In 1988 he switched to the Leyton House March team in F1 (whose owner Akagi was slowly buying the entire March factory & franchise). His first f1 car was the fast but flawed 88 March.

Newey never designed F3000 cars!

As to F3000 bombing, F2 used to be a serious series with many champions going on to F1. But after 1980, it became a retirement series filled with drivers that didn't quite make it to F1 (exceptions being people such as Bellof, Nannini & Streiff).

F3000 always suffered from a silly name, lousy advertising and a complete absence of common sense. Until 1994 however it was doing well. Every champion made it to F1 and some had pretty good careers. 1994 camp Bouillon had half a season at Sauber but 1995 champ Sospiri only got the Lola seat in 1997 . Then Jorg Muller failed to make the break and the series basically died on its feet.

F3000 is an example of poor strategic reasoning, poor execution and a lack of a Bernie. Kind of like CART actually.

[AlesiGOD]

I didn't get this question in the poll:

"If Rubens and Mad Max Mosley are the people pushing it, it has no hope at all!"

Rubens?

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dont think of F3000 so much as lost talent but the bare essentials. Its probably one of the most even and competitive championships in the world. Drivers learn finally how fast they arent, and a lot of hyped pride is wounded. However guys like Montoya and Heidfeld, win *instantly* and along with Zonta all three contested for the title in their first season.

[ehagar]

I think it is more of a case of a bunch of sucessful drivers in F-3 and other series getting together and quickly finding out that there are others out there as good as you.

The even equipment makes it difficult too....

If I could dream up a better F-3000, it would be composed of a one make 1-3 year old F-1 chassis rather than a Lola. Lola ran a tight budget to develop the car so the downforce improvements the new car has are about 20%, a figure that could be higher if they spent more time on it.

An F-1 chassis is obsolete after a year or so anyway, why not have drivers train on the state of the art. Chuck in a derated Judd V10, call it F-2 and go, go, go!

[Mellon]

I'd say the biggst problem for the prestige of F3000 is that the true talent never enters the series but jumps from F3 straight into F1. How many F3000 drivers have ever won an GP? Alesi, Panis and Montoya are the only ones I can think of. One other problem it usually takes two years to acheive success and as the cars apparently are not comparable to F1s concerning driving style, the series really is a waste of time for the truly talented.

If however F3000 was scrapped in favour of an international F3 chamionship that would follow the F1 circus, as F3000 does now, and in addition include for example Macau, it would become more worthwile for both drivers and F1 teams. Today a driver who shows exceptional talent in their first year in a national F3 series would be expected to win in his second year and then move up to F1. This however is not quite as accurate an measure of a driver as the quality of the opposition can vary from year to year and between countries.

An international F3 series would IMHO lead to the best drivers in their 2nd or 3rd year of F3 competing on a international level making it easier to evaluate their talent as the others drivers were more likely to be of a higher standard. This would be in the interest of teams also because that would give drivers a knowledge of the tracks in advance. If the image of the series was somewhat higher this might also lead to drivers left without an F1 ride, such as Verstappen and Zonta to take a step down and try to revive their carreer that way, further elevating the standard of competition, making this the primary way to enter F1, which is what FIA apparently wants.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Mellon
I'd say the biggst problem for the prestige of F3000 is that the true talent never enters the series but jumps from F3 straight into F1. How many F3000 drivers have ever won an GP? Alesi, Panis and Montoya are the only ones I can think of. One other problem it usually takes two years to acheive success and as the cars apparently are not comparable to F1s concerning driving style, the series really is a waste of time for the truly talented.

Ive allways felt that was simply a case of numbers. There's only one F3000 championship, meanwhile there's a good 5 national F3 series. German, British, French, Spanish and/or Italian, and Japanese. So the odds are more likely that a Grand Prix winner has done F3 and not F3000. On top of that F3k has only been around really since the mid 80s

[ehagar]

Didn't Hill and Coulthard do a bit of F-3000? British or International...

[Richard Jenkins]

Ross, it could be argued there's THREE F3000 series.

International, the European (which Massa came out of - so what's this about no new talent from F3000?) and FNippon.

If anything needs to go it's the European F3000 series which should merge into the International F3000 series.
But when Coulthard, Panis, Webber, Zanardi, Montoya, Irvine & Heidfeld emerge from the last ten years you can hardly say poor driving talent.

There are no fewer than ten drivers in there who if I were a team boss, i would have no hesitation snapping up & another 5 who I would think about carefully. The talent in there is raw, but of huge potential:
Bourdais, Briscoe, Wirdheim, Pizzonia, both Speraficio brothers, Freisacher, Mauricio, Kiesa & Pantano would all be very good F1 drivers (maybe not winners but credible mid-fielders at least) given the chance.

[MrAerodynamicist]

Bring back non-championship grand prix rounds, and force the teams to take part, but at least one driver must not be one of the team's main F1 driver

Or, force the F1 teams to loan last years cars to the running of a second division F1 series. You'd soon learn who's suited to an F1 car

[Ross Stonefeld]

European F3000 sucks and no one is realistically coming out of Nippons.

Re your International driver list, id axe Freisacher (he wouldnt be there but for Red Bull) and Kiesa.

I think part of the problem might also be in some years you get *too* many good drivers. If the top 10 on the grid are all megastars in the making, you look at the guy in 10th and think "man i dont want this guy in my car" even though he's maybe .5 off pole.

[Richard Jenkins]

I really rate Freisacher, despite his obvious Red Bull support. I always thought it was Mauricio who was more wealthingly backed by the company? Either way, with a link to Arrows & Danny Sullivan's Red Bull academy for US drivers not up & running fully yet, a chance in F1, I think will come his way.

You're very right re. too many good drivers though. Wasn't there a year when Watt, Montoya, Rodriguez, Enge, Minassian, Heidfeld, Webber & Davies all were at the top racing? As it was, two of them were tragically out of contention before the season's end but the point is, too many of them missed out a la Jorg Muller.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ive never seen Mauricio with Red Bull money until he was teamed with Bernoldi half way through 99 after being let go by Super Nova (who sponsored him in F3). I think his first full season was maybe 00 with Red Bull-RSM and then didnt do anything in 01 until he repalced Garcia again at Red Bull, and now has another season. I rate Mauricio pretty highly but his off-on F3000 career isnt going to help

As it stands, Red Bull need to get their act together and stop being chummy if you're Austro-German. Move your money to Super Nova and subsidise the drives. Even if you demand one seat be filled by a Red Bull driver, let Sears pick whoever he wants for the second seat. You'll win a lot more than the RSM route.

[Rob29]

It could be argued that there are about 6 'F3000' series. Italian F2 is for the 1996-8 F3000 cars,F.Holden, EX Indy Lights now called F6000/F.de la Americas. What all these have in common is more POWER than F3.

[Dudley]

I don't have Eurosport anymore, so I can't watch

Unless I've gone mad I haven't found any F3000 on British Eurosport so far this year.

[Dudley]

Although I just noticed, tomorrows race is live.

[Slyder]

Great, were going back to the talk that was long ago, when F2 was scrapped in favor of F3000

Now if we scrap F3000, what do we replace it with? F2 again?

Maybe if we get rid of International F3000, and we divide the series into many divisions,

North America
South America
Europe
Africa
Asia
Oceania

And the top-5 finishers in the championships of all these divisions will head off into a final race, just like F3 at Macao

Anyone agree?