32 replies to this topic

[Uncle Davy]

From The Indianapolis Star:


http://indystar.com/....php?pit26.html


Herbert feeling confident about his 1st Indy 500



April 26, 2002


Former Formula One standout Johnny Herbert has never raced on an oval track, much less one with the history, pressure and speed of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

But he expects no problems adjusting to the Indianapolis 500, which opens for practice May 5.

"I'm fortunate because I like high-speed corners, so that will help," he said this week during his two days of testing. "Generally, this track is wider than the tracks I'm used to and since I've been (racing) so long, the speed doesn't bother me.

"It certainly doesn't feel like 220-225 mph. It's like anything else; when you've got the car set up right, you can run it easy."

Herbert, 37, will compete for the Indianapolis-based team that helped Billy Boat finish fourth in the Indy Racing League last season. Team owner Greg Beck has put four cars in the 500's top 10 over the past six races.

This year's car, the No. 32 Western Union Duesenberg Racing entry, is a Dallara with Chevrolet engines built by John Menard's company.

Herbert's best lap this week was 221.3 mph, but that came on a day when conditions weren't suitable to reach the 226-227-mph range that some drivers achieved during the testing period.

Herbert, who participated in the inaugural U.S. Grand Prix at the Speedway in 2000, is confident he'll qualify well -- Beck's cars usually do despite limited practice -- and he considers racing his forte.

Herbert is excited about his first shot at the 500.

"It's the only (challenge) that I've got left from the ones I set when I was 10 years old," he said. "I've had the opportunity to win (three) Formula One races, Le Mans and now I've finally got an opportunity at the Speedway, and I'm looking forward to it big-time.

"But I can't get any satisfaction from just being in the race and doing a good job. It would be wonderful to win. That's the goal. But I want to have a solid run. Top six. That's what I'm here to do."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Easy? Perhaps Johnny should have a talk with Nelson Piquet...before he has an appointment with Dr. Terry Trammell.

Notwithstanding the level of competition in the IRL vs. F1, the Brickyard can have a nasty habit of biting you when least expected. Take care, Johnny...

[Scudetto]

Thanks Uncle Davy.

I hope Jonny does well.

[AMD]

Originally posted by Uncle Davy

Easy? Perhaps Johnny should have a talk with Nelson Piquet...before he has an appointment with Dr. Terry Trammell.

but after the month of practise, the driver will have a better understanding of the challenge involved. Driving Indy must be one of the best experiences for a professional racing driver, no matter what you call it (IRL, CART whatever)

[RiverRunner]

Notwithstanding the level of competition in the IRL vs. F1, the Brickyard can have a nasty habit of biting you when least expected. Take care, Johnny...
The last time I heard a line something like what you said was when Al Unser jr said to Montoya to watch out "because they carry people out on stretchers here"
IIRC Lil' Al was pouting in his motorhome while Montoya was drinking milk at the finish of the race.
Johnny will be fine,he has more laps and more set up time in formula racers than about 90% of the irl regulars.As long as his instincts don't take over and he tries to steer into a spin,he'll have no problems if he gets in trouble.His biggest problem will be avoiding the hapless irl only drivers pulling their typical boneheaded manuevers.
I am a bit worried however by the awful tendency of the irl spec 'racer' to back itself straight into the walls of late causing severe back injuries.I think there are six drivers sidelined for extended periods in just three races this year.

[Uncle Davy]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
Notwithstanding the level of competition in the IRL vs. F1, the Brickyard can have a nasty habit of biting you when least expected. Take care, Johnny...
The last time I heard a line something like what you said was when Al Unser jr said to Montoya to watch out "because they carry people out on stretchers here"

By the time JPM came to Indy, he had already amassed a significant amount of seat time on high-speed ovals in CART...

[Ross Stonefeld]

and he then compared the IRL car to an F3 car and told Franchitti his Grandmother could hot-lap in it

Im not worried about Herbert at Indy at all, but man he could have gone with a better team. Herbert at Menards would have been mega.

[RiverRunner]

I'm actually surprised that he did take that ride and I'm even more surprised that Cheever didn't sign him instead of Sheckter.Cheever is probably wishing he did after the equipment Tomas has trashed so far this year.
But what the hey,Cheevr probably didn't have the scratch to pay a Herbert and who knows if Johnny would put up with the irl for a full season.
Other than Penske,I think the irl regs are in for a spankin' ......again.......

[vapaokie]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
I am a bit worried however by the awful tendency of the irl spec 'racer' to back itself straight into the walls of late causing severe back injuries.I think there are six drivers sidelined for extended periods in just three races this year.

Please leave anti-series (IRL, CART, NASCAR) bias out of comments supposedly offered regarding safety. We generally have pretty good discussions about safety in many series on this board, provided we leave fan bias out.

The phenomena of backing into the wall, and the resultant back injuries, is a problem of all rear-engine racecars on ovals. Hence the addition of accelerometers in the early 90's to better define the problem, and the addition of attenuators (late 90's) on the back of the chassis to try to slow the rate of deceleration upon impact. This has been a problem since the 60's when the rear engine cars first showed up at the Brickyard. It is not a problem "of late". Is there an unusual rash of accidents happening right now? Yes, much like there is an unusual rash of suspension failures in the past several F1 races, going back at least to Suzuka 2001, with the "nearly over the line of safety" F1 car. (See how misleading hyperbole is? )

That said, the brickyard is a place to be respected. That was what AL Jr., was trying to get across to Montoya. Herbert has some good experience on the Indy oval now, but certainly still needs to pay attention during rookie orientation. The place can bite hard if you aren't careful. It is a good thing that Dr. Trammel practices in Indy. I could think of no one better to have patch a driver back together.

BTW, what is Sheckter's status since the crash at Nazareth- will he be making the 500?

[indycarjunkie]

If Herbert wanted a top 6 he shouldn't have taken a ride with Beck. I'll wager that if Sarah gets a ride with Dreyer & Reinbold that she'll finish ahead of him. Any takers?

[RiverRunner]

The problem of the irl rig is that it has a cost mandated tranny that doesn't have near the crushability of an tranny like those in CART and F-1,and as a spec tranny will not be modified if it needs to be.
Call it however you want,but 6 serious injuries of the same type in just four races says there is something wrong with this picture....IMO
If these same things were happening in F-1,Max would be having kittens,and not bolting a rubber bumper on the back and calling it innovative.

[vapaokie]

All I ask for regarding safety discussion is serious, unbiased discussion. I think we have that now.

I can't speak to the crushability of the the IRL tranny, but why can't the spec be changed? Only a matter of making the decision, if a better solution exists. The back injuries are somewhat a nasty unfortunate nature of the beast (is there in CART and to some extent, Sprint car racing as well), once the car swaps ends, there isn't much to slow the car besides the coefficient of friction between rubber and asphalt before the wall. Part of why I am hoping the soft wall technology works out. Anything to reduce the force of impact is a plus. Also, calling the attenuator just a rubber bumper is a little disingenuous.

The suspension failures in F1 haven't resulted in injury due moreso to when and where they have happened, at places where there has been a lot of room to stop the car before a big impact with something unyielding. That said, Alesi was just plain lucky he wasn't hit in the head with the nose of Raikkonen's car in Suzuka- watch the replay sometime.

[indycarjunkie]

I agree the injuries is a problem but they aren't ignoring it or trying to cover it up like in NASCAR. Its just a physics problem that I don't know can be solved. Since most of the car's mass is behind the driver, the heavy end will lead the way in a spin which is why the back end usually hits the wall first. To experement try throwing a tomahawk at a log from various distances. The tomahawk flies end over end but the head nearly always strikes the log.

IMS installed new "soft walls" and is the first oval track to do so. We will see how well they work after they collect some accident data. Hopefully there won't be too much of that.

[vapaokie]

Ignoring/covering up a problem; and being behind the curve (as was F1 in at least 93/94, if not before- they didn't raise the cockpit sides till after Wendlinger, Ratzenberger, and Senna; even though Indycars had already made the major redesign) in safety are two very different concepts.

Yours is not a fair or honest assertion to make about NASCAR. They have a car that works very well in most accident situations, except for one major shortfall- the 3/4 head on impact. Not an easy problem to solve without causing others.

[indycarjunkie]

vapaokie you may be right about my assesement of NASCAR's safety. Its just that I find their whole treatment over the Dale Sr. fiasco absolutely deplorable. They had (unless I'm mistaken) 3 other drivers killed in similar accidents and yet it took the death of their greatest star to make it seem like they were doing something about it besides blaming Bill Simpson. Thats another sore spot for me too.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I dunno whats up with Sheckter. He's really freaking quick, but they need to get something through to him. I think part of the problem is the series he's in. Im not sure he'd crash as much in CART ovals because he'd be up against a crowd that has an idea of what he's about to do and might actually race him in the corner instead of running into him.

I think Red Bull should move him and their checks to CART when the rules stabilise. Put Tomas between concrete walls, but make sure they're on a street course, he'll be mega

[vapaokie]

Just answered the Sheckter situation. Health wise is fine, likely to be suspended from the 500 for causing the crash after being warned about his actions at Homestead; team owner Cheever seems resigned to it.

http://www.indystar.....php?irl23.html

ICJ, I don't think it was a matter of not doing anyting about it after Petty, Irwin, and Roper; moreso not being public about the research they were doing. I'm there with you on Simpson, though. It was not right the treatment he recieved, few have done more for safety in US racing than he has.

[indycarjunkie]

Ross, I can tell you didn't watch the races because Sheckter was the one running into other drivers starting with his own boss!! I doubt he'd be that much better in CART. He's a fearless driver thats for sure but its a stupid kinda fearless. Tomas will be lucky if he's allowed to run the 500. He might be suspended.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Hornish Jr pulled a much stupider move IMO in the Nazareth race. Sheckter was down to inexperience not knowing what line Lazier was gonna take, Hornish was just being stupid.

[Todd]

What was it about Hornish's move that was so dumb? That he assumed Lazier would not move closer to the wall to stop him once he was already alongside? Obviously, the space had been there for him to get that far up on Lazier in the first place. He was just guilty of assuming that other IRL drivers are capable of the same level that he is.

[vapaokie]

You mean other than passing two cars from way back, trying to make it four wide on a track barely wide enough for 3? I doubt Lazier thought anyone would have been dumb enough to go that high there, in that situation.

[Todd]

Did you have any favorites in the field prior to the race?

Staying there for a whole lap would not have been reasonable, but there was nothing about the point on the track where they contacted one another that justified Lazier trying to squeeze Hornish at that moment.

[F1Johnny]

Back to the topic. I wish Johnny the best and hope he does not hurt himself. I still remember the Nelson Piquet accident. The # of accidents in the IRL is alarming and not to mention the injuries. Johnny's luck in the past has not been great, but we'll see.

[vapaokie]

I really only watch the IRL in passing (no pun intended). So, I really don't have any favorites. I happened to be on the channel when the accident happened, thinking what the hell was he doing? I'm not suggesting he should have stayed there for a lap; just that turn at that moment was not the right place to pass on the outside. It did not look to me like Lazier was squeezing him, they were four wide remember. It looked more like Lazier avoiding the car inside of him. What I've seen of Hornish, I think he is a raw talent- good, needs to think more though.

[Ross Stonefeld]

heh funny you say other IRL drivers arent up to Hornish's level. Hornish is flattered by his team and being the only guy with works Chevy status and a 2002 engine. He's overrated and unbeleivably dull

[Locai]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
I'm actually surprised that he did take that ride and I'm even more surprised that Cheever didn't sign him instead of Sheckter.Cheever is probably wishing he did after the equipment Tomas has trashed so far this year.
But what the hey,Cheevr probably didn't have the scratch to pay a Herbert and who knows if Johnny would put up with the irl for a full season.
Other than Penske,I think the irl regs are in for a spankin' ......again.......

Yeah, Schekter has definitely torn up his fair share of equipment.

There are a few other decent drivers in the IRL than just the Penske boys. Don't forget about Hornish. Also, the Lazier brothers are pretty good. Maybe Scott Sharp and Eddie Cheever. It starts to thin out rapidly after that.

The skill level should be substantially better for Indy than your regular IRL race. Ganassi is going to field 4 cars, Green is going to field 3, and Mo Nunn is fielding 2 (I think). There's more, but I can't think of them right now. There are going to (hopefully) be several IRL regulars watching the race on TV. Indy may actually make a return back to being a race that matters.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
heh funny you say other IRL drivers arent up to Hornish's level. Hornish is flattered by his team and being the only guy with works Chevy status and a 2002 engine. He's overrated and unbeleivably dull

I've probably only seen 5 of his races, but the moves he makes are often far from dull in my eyes. He kinda reminds me of the bullring work of Greg Moore and Alex Zanardi, which was the high point for open wheel oval racing for me.

[indycarjunkie]

Don't underestimate the IRL drivers and teams. Yeah, sure scrubs like Billy Roe won't stand a chance but I'm feeling a lot of karma working for the IRL and fully expect an IRL team not named Penske or Panther to be in victory circle for the 500.

Good luck Herbert!

You'll need it.

[shoofirbin]

i think herbert will be fine. last year when he tested for heritage racing, he posted a lap time that would have put the car on pole for that year's race at the same track. and that was his first time in the car. herbert's a proven driver and oval racing is so much more about set-up. the only thing he has to worry abou is his crappy irl team car against penske and the cart teams.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by vapaokie
Yours is not a fair or honest assertion to make about NASCAR. They have a car that works very well in most accident situations, except for one major shortfall- the 3/4 head on impact. Not an easy problem to solve without causing others.

At the same time they seem to not be looking for engineering solutions. The problem is that the cages transmit the forces to the driver. They have been warned for a very, very, very, very long time. The 'humpty' bumper is actually a pretty good idea, but why are they taking so bloody long to act. Why is it that it is that Wheeler fellow pushing for changes rather than a Nascar sanctioned technical body.

I disagree. I was disgusted by the 'car #3' report. Is my opinion fair? Maybe not. But I would expect more out of a racing organization that is one of the most profitable around.

[Dudley]

but I'm feeling a lot of karma working for the IRL

Because they can't get spanked at their home race by a bunch of ringers again can they?;)

[Dudley]

but I'm feeling a lot of karma working for the IRL

Because they can't get spanked at their lead race by a bunch of ringers again can they?;)

[MattPete]

Originally posted by vapaokie
All I ask for regarding safety discussion is serious, unbiased discussion. I think we have that now.

The problem with the IRL trannys is that they hang out behind the rear wheels. Not only does this add a little more rear weight bias, but it also means that the transmission is the first thing to hit the wall. The transmission is connected to the egnine-bone, the engine-bone is connected to the driver's back-bone....you get the picture.

In contrast, the first thing to hit the wall when going backwards in a CART Champcar is the rear tires. Tire deflection, wheel buckle, and suspension crumple all occur before the transmission hits the wall. In the IRL's defence, they have added a rear bumper.

I've also heard speculation that the airbox blanks out the rear wing, causing slight oversteer to turn into major oversteer.

[vapaokie]

Originally posted by ehagar
At the same time they seem to not be looking for engineering solutions. The problem is that the cages transmit the forces to the driver. They have been warned for a very, very, very, very long time. The 'humpty' bumper is actually a pretty good idea, but why are they taking so bloody long to act. Why is it that it is that Wheeler fellow pushing for changes rather than a Nascar sanctioned technical body.

I disagree. I was disgusted by the 'car #3' report. Is my opinion fair? Maybe not. But I would expect more out of a racing organization that is one of the most profitable around.

Yes, it has been a problem for a long time, should give you some indication of how difficult a problem it is to solve. Personally, I believe that crumple zones are needed. Then again, look at Jr.'s crash at Fontana- a front clip designed to crumple could have easily torn off, leaving a 300-400 pound lump of iron in the middle of the track; or having his car slide down the track to be hit, this time with no protection in front of the fire wall. I don't know the right answer.

The humpty bumper may well be a good idea. Needs more testing than two or three cars driven into the wall by remote control, however. The aero package developed in the late 80's early 90's alone went through somewhere around 150 chassis; utilizing jet engines and wind tunnels to solve the problem of cars going airborne after spinning. That is where the roof and hood flaps, side window, and longitudinal roof strips came from. Have worked very well in keeping the cars on the ground. Cars rarely go airborne by themselves now, are generally forced into a roll by another car.

The roll cage transmits forces to the driver in direct impacts (frontal in particular), yes. Does a hell of a job protecting him in rollovers, multiple, and side impacts, though. Talledega- 51 cars in two wrecks in two days- one bit tongue. I think that speaks pretty well for its overall safety. NASCAR does have an engineering shop (headed by Gary Nelson- former crew chief, then chief inspection steward) trying to find solutions. Formed too late (last year) maybe, but a step forward nonetheless. Wheeler has long been a safety advocate for the sport, and probably the top promoter. That is why you hear so much from him.

What disgusted you about the report? Was a plain,dry, technical report that described the physics of what happened to the car, and tried to explain what happened to the driver. The belt did separate, that had to be in the report; as well as what should have been in it, that the belt was installed improperly- likely why it failed. Still, the fact remains regarding the belt- it probably didn't matter. IMO, the difference in deceleration between head and torso is what mattered. Whether his head hit the wheel or not, I don't think anyone can say for sure. The wheel was deformed and bloody, however. The crash was extraordinarily violent, occuring at the worst possible angle of impact. Would the HANS have saved his life?.......I want to say yes, but the crash could very well have left him a vegetable, too.

Slow (sometimes appearing to slow) deliberate change is preferable to making changes immediately (i. e., the restrictor plates), without an appreciation for unintended consequences (the absurd 40 car packs at Daytona and Talledega). Look how long Indy has been working on the soft walls concept. Seemingly simple solutions can take some time to develop properly.

MattPete- thanks for clarifying the issue with the IRL tranny.