29 replies to this topic

[Egon Thurner]

A little obscure race had been held in 1900 - very unusual - for cars up to 500 kg. The usual class for 'Voiturettes' by the time had been defined 'from 250 - 400 kg'.

1 Leon Théry (Decauville)
2 Henri Tart (Clément)
3 ? Ravenez (Decauville)

Is anybody able to give the exact date of the race or even some background information ? Thanks.

[FEV]

I can only add a 45 km/h average speed for Théry. The race distance was roughly 220 kilometres.

[ensign14]

11 March 1900, organised by Le Journal des Sports for the Coupe des Voiturettes (although Decauville refered to it in advertising as the Coupe des Voiturelles).

There were 2 classes - 'ribbed motors' and 'water-cooled motors' - and these were further subdivided into weight categories (<250kgs and 250-500 kgs).

57 entries, 35 starters (4 light water cooled, 14 heavy water cooled, 11 light air-cooled, 6 heavy air-cooled).

Known entries:
Decauville (heavy water): Ravenez, Thery, Uhlmann
Clement: Tart (lt air)
Phebus: Osmont (lt air)
Unknown lt air: Demeester - possibly his own construction?

The race was from Chambourcy along the same route as the 1894 Petit Journal race, the return coming back a different route through Magny-en-Vexin and Meulan. It was run over 136 miles.

Lighter cars set off at 8.34am, heavy cars at 9am.

Result:

1. Thery (4' 51" 7)
2. Tart (5' 46" 55)
3. Ravenez

Ravenez was the son of the President of the Council of Administration of the Societe Decauville, whatever that was, and he himself was the manager of the Decauville Parisian works. Wonder how he got the drive? No first name I'm afraid.

Decauville referred to 'voiturelles' because the original voiturette was a Leon Bollee car, i.e. a model name rather than a description. But like coke or Ribena come to identify their type of product rather than the product itself 'voiturette' came to mean all small cars despite Bollee's copyright. (Sorry about the lack of accents - you know where to put them.)

Source: Racing Voiturettes by Kent Karslake.

[Egon Thurner]

Thank you very much !

The Karlslake-book, always good. I was looking for it a time ago, but no chance to find it anywhere.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Look at http://dogbert.abebo.../abe/BookSearch
Under author, type in Ken Karslake. Don't make typing errors!
The first Voiturette book to pop up was book #6.

6. KARSLAKE, Kent. RACING VOITURETTES.
Motor Racing Publications, Abingdon-on-Thames, 1950, (1st edition). 8vo, 376pp, 79 b.w. photos, folding chart. Binding faded and a little worn, name, stamp and stain on f.f.e.p., otherwise a good clean copy. Bookseller Inventory # 41435
Price: A$ 200.00 (approx. US$ 108.67) convert currency
Presented by Sainsbury's Books Pty. Ltd., Melbourne, VIC, Australia
order options

[Doug Nye]

Finishers list with times - in order of start number - for the 1900 Coupe des Voiturettes, as published in 'La France Automobile' - issue of March 15, 1900, page 160:

WATER-COOLED VEHICLES
Serie A - Max. 250Kg weight:

Race No 2 - Camus - Teste Moret-build de Dion-Bouton 2 1/4hp - 7hrs 36mins 50secs

Serie B - 250-500Kg weight:

12 - Hugot - de Dion-Bouton - 7:45;2
14 - Ullmann - Decauville - 6:18;11
15 - Ravenez - nothing listed - 5:56;47
17 - Delantre - Hurtu - 6:26;12
18 - Klaus - Klaus - 10:14;12
20 - Thery - Decauville - 4:51;4 (NOT 51;7 in this report)
21 - Paul Louis - De Riancey - 7:28;4
22 - Creux - Peugeot - 6:22;51
23 - Teneau - Peugeot - 8:16;51
24 - Doriot - Peugeot - 5:58;51
25 - Georges Richard - Georges Richard - 6:38;55

--------------------------

AIR-COOLED VEHICLES

Serie C - 250Kg Max. weight:

31 - Schrader - Corre de Dion-Bouton - 7:45;2
36 - Tarte - Clement - de Dion-Bouton - 5:46;55
40 - Georges Richard II (sic) - George Richard - 9:56;0
44 - Osmont - Phebus Aster - 7:17;8
50 - Demester - Gladiator Aster - 9:14;0
51 - Delisle - Rouxel Soncin - 7:40;0
52 - Emile - Societe Parisienne de Dion-Bouton - 8:3;38

Serie D - 250-500Kg weight:

68 - Lefevre - Darracq Leon Bollee - 8:9;0

DCN

[ensign14]

Wow, this is absolute gold dust, thank you Mr Nye.

Now, do we have any eye-witnesses to sort the 3 second discrepancy in Thery's winning time?

Or anyone who can get 'La France Automobile' articles reprinted? Is there a French equivalent of Brooklands Books? (Montlhery Books?)

[Egon Thurner]

Thank you very much, Doug. Providing that lot of information was very kind. The output of this forum is always surprising.

No doubt for me, Ravenez' car ('nothing listed') was a Decauville.

Also thanks to Hans for his hint. Nice to hear from you, aloha.

[FEV]

Yes, thank you very much Doug !

Or anyone who can get 'La France Automobile' articles reprinted? Is there a French equivalent of Brooklands Books? (Montlhery Books?)

Alas, no equivalent of Brooklands Books in French ! I'm struggling since months now to get my hands (or even just my eyes !) on collections of periodicals like "La France Automobile", "Omnia", "l'Auto", "La Locomotion", etc... for Hans' project. Even the biggest public libraries like Centre Pompidou in Paris do not have them ! My search for private collections has not given anything yet either. Daily newspapers like "Le Figaro" or "Le Matin" might have racing-related things in them but of course that makes a lot of reading for few info. And of course in the 1890s/1900s, France was divided between pro-automobiles and anti-automobiles, so little hopes to find anyhting about racing (except for accidents) in newspapers like "L'Aurore" or "L'Intransigeant" who were notorious ennemies of the new locomotion technique. A shame because they are easier to find than, say, "Omnia" or "La Locomotion"...

[Vitesse2]

Frank: French libraries may not have them, but there are copies of some of these, and other early French magazines, in the NMM Library at Beaulieu - I've emailed you a copy of their magazine holdings.

[Egon Thurner]

Digging again in France of 1900 I found another note about a race Paris - Rouen:

1900-11-04
Paris-Rouen
130 km
only permitted fuel was alcohol!
winner: Etienne Giraud / ? (most probably his 'old' Panhard&Levassor) 2:15 hours (56,296 kmh)

what's about that ?

another very curios race ...

[FEV]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Frank: French libraries may not have them, but there are copies of some of these, and other early French magazines, in the NMM Library at Beaulieu - I've emailed you a copy of their magazine holdings.

Thanks a lot Richard, so many wonderful things within ! The NMM Library really is the closest thing to heaven on earth for me ! And what a shame for us French : we invented this sport and are so far from having a place like this ! Now I have to find something like a few free months to go to Beaulieu...

[Doug Nye]

FEV - I have 'La France Automobile' bound and complete from 1896 to 1909 inclusive. I'm not running a public library, but if you require anything that I can find the time to provide - such as access to the reference for example - give me a call. (But I'm not letting Brooklands Books anywhere near them...)

DCN

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by ensign14
Now, do we have any eye-witnesses to sort the 3 second discrepancy in Thery's winning time?

Err - please note - that is a three MINUTE discrepancy. Anyone driving from Paris to Rouen in 4 minutes 51.4 SECONDS really would be doing rather well... The law would never catch him.

DCN

[quintin cloud]

57 entries, 35 starters (4 light water cooled, 14 heavy water cooled, 11 light air-cooled, 6 heavy air-cooled).

Does anybody have the names of the non-finishers of the GP

[FEV]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
FEV - I have 'La France Automobile' bound and complete from 1896 to 1909 inclusive. I'm not running a public library, but if you require anything that I can find the time to provide - such as access to the reference for example - give me a call. (But I'm not letting Brooklands Books anywhere near them...)

DCN

Thanks for your offer Doug. Well, if you come across anything related to the foudation of l'ACF could you please tell me in which issue that would be ? Could there for instance be something at the time of the tenth anniversary of the ACF around late 1904/early 1905 ? No hurry at all, just if you have some free time someday. Thanks again !
Frank

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Err - please note - that is a three MINUTE discrepancy. Anyone driving from Paris to Rouen in 4 minutes 51.4 SECONDS really would be doing rather well... The law would never catch him.

DCN

Sorry - I thought it was 4 hours 51 minutes and 4 or 7 seconds? Mixing up my flying comma symbols.

Nice to know that the French timekeepers in 1900 were timing to the same degree of accuracy as those at the British Grand Prix over 50 years later!

[Egon Thurner]

Just to bring it on top of page again. The answer is missing yet ...

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
Digging again in France of 1900 I found another note about a race Paris - Rouen:

1900-11-04
Paris-Rouen
130 km
only permitted fuel was alcohol!
winner: Etienne Giraud / ? (most probably his 'old' Panhard&Levassor) 2:15 hours (56,296 kmh)

what's about that ?

another very curios race ...

[anjakub]

Egon,
I found just a little about 1900 Paris-Rouen race.

Le Criterium de l'Alcool was organized under patronage French magazine "Velo".

Paris (St. Germain) - Rouen: 126 km

1. Etienne Giraud (Panhard Levassor) 2h15m - time of arrival 11:18
2. Charron / Girardot (Panhard Levassor) - 11:34
3. Gobron Brille - 11:37
4. Degrais - 11:55
5. Barras - 12:08
6. Lefevre - 12:12
7. Gobron Brille - driven by Madame Gobron - 12:19
8. Georges Richard - 12:30
9. Zérron - 12:20

In the contest started 51 cars. At 8:15 first started Riguelle, at 9:03 Giraud as one of the last. Till to 4 hour finished 30 cars. After this time another three cars.

[Egon Thurner]

Thank you, Andrzej - some more bits in my collection

[fines]

Originally posted by anjakub
7. Gobron Brille - driven by Madame Gobron - 12:19

Accidentally found: Suzanne Gobron, born Scheurer Dec 28, 1862 in Thann (Haut Rhin), married Gustave Gobron in Paris Jul 19, 1882, died Jan 6, 1927 in Paris.

[she was born the same date as my mother (77 years earlier) and has (almost) the same first name]

[fines]

There was another race from Paris to Rouen (and back) in 1899, on Jan 26, of which I only know the winner: Léonce Girardot, Panhard & Levassor.

Anyone with more info, pretty please?

[anjakub]

Still few words:

In the race Paris-Rouen 1900 Etienne Giraud started on 22hp Panhard Levassor (early he drove this car in race Paris-Toulouse) without engine modifications or with little insignificant modifications. The cost of fuel for Giraud's car not exceeded 17 Francs.
Darraq, who passed a race track with time 3h30m, payed for alcohol only 4,50 Francs.

[Egon Thurner]

Originally posted by fines
There was another race from Paris to Rouen (and back) in 1899, on Jan 26, of which I only know the winner: Léonce Girardot, Panhard & Levassor.

Anyone with more info, pretty please?

Perigord Cup

[fines]

Thanks, again!


__________________
Michael Ferner

Patriotism makes blind, and hinders critique - but it's a curable disease!

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Finishers list with times - in order of start number - for the 1900 Coupe des Voiturettes, as published in 'La France Automobile' - issue of March 15, 1900, page 160:

WATER-COOLED VEHICLES
Serie A - Max. 250Kg weight:

Race No 2 - Camus - Teste Moret-build de Dion-Bouton 2 1/4hp - 7hrs 36mins 50secs

Serie B - 250-500Kg weight:

12 - Hugot - de Dion-Bouton - 7:45;2
14 - Ullmann - Decauville - 6:18;11
15 - Ravenez - nothing listed - 5:56;47
17 - Delantre - Hurtu - 6:26;12
18 - Klaus - Klaus - 10:14;12
20 - Thery - Decauville - 4:51;4 (NOT 51;7 in this report)
21 - Paul Louis - De Riancey - 7:28;4
22 - Creux - Peugeot - 6:22;51
23 - Teneau - Peugeot - 8:16;51
24 - Doriot - Peugeot - 5:58;51
25 - Georges Richard - Georges Richard - 6:38;55

--------------------------

AIR-COOLED VEHICLES

Serie C - 250Kg Max. weight:

31 - Schrader - Corre de Dion-Bouton - 7:45;2
36 - Tarte - Clement - de Dion-Bouton - 5:46;55
40 - Georges Richard II (sic) - George Richard - 9:56;0
44 - Osmont - Phebus Aster - 7:17;8
50 - Demester - Gladiator Aster - 9:14;0
51 - Delisle - Rouxel Soncin - 7:40;0
52 - Emile - Societe Parisienne de Dion-Bouton - 8:3;38

Serie D - 250-500Kg weight:

68 - Lefevre - Darracq Leon Bollee - 8:9;0

DCN

Looking at the names of the drivers (and vehicles) of the light weight air-cooled vehicles I have the impression these vehicles could be bi or tricycles. Am I right or am I wrong.


Gerrit Stevens

[gerrit stevens]

Originally posted by anjakub
Egon,
I found just a little about 1900 Paris-Rouen race.

Le Criterium de l'Alcool was organized under patronage French magazine "Velo".

Paris (St. Germain) - Rouen: 126 km

1. Etienne Giraud (Panhard Levassor) 2h15m - time of arrival 11:18
2. Charron / Girardot (Panhard Levassor) - 11:34
3. Gobron Brille - 11:37
4. Degrais - 11:55
5. Barras - 12:08
6. Lefevre - 12:12
7. Gobron Brille - driven by Madame Gobron - 12:19
8. Georges Richard - 12:30
9. Zérron - 12:20

In the contest started 51 cars. At 8:15 first started Riguelle, at 9:03 Giraud as one of the last. Till to 4 hour finished 30 cars. After this time another three cars.

I see some names who also drove in the Paris-Rouen-Paris race (Lefevre & Georges Richard). How is this possible or was the Paris-Rouen-Paris race (Coupe des Voiturettes) held on another date..


Gerrit Stevens

[Kvadrat]

Gerrit, they were different races.

Originally posted by Egon Thurner
11 March 1900, organised by Le Journal des Sports for the Coupe des Voiturettes...

Originally posted by ensign14
Digging again in France of 1900 I found another note about a race Paris - Rouen:

1900-11-04
Paris-Rouen
130 km
only permitted fuel was alcohol!
winner: Etienne Giraud / ? (most probably his 'old' Panhard&Levassor) 2:15 hours (56,296 kmh)

Originally posted by anjakub
Le Criterium de l'Alcool was organized under patronage French magazine "Velo".

Paris (St. Germain) - Rouen: 126 km

1. Etienne Giraud (Panhard Levassor) 2h15m - time of arrival 11:18

Date 1900-11-04 is little bit confusing for me. Is it April 11 or November 4?

I have also a question on March 11 race route. According to ensigh14's message, it's Chambourcy - Rouen - Magny-en-Vexin - Meulan - Paris.

Here's map of North East France.



Where are Chambourcy and Meulan are situated? What are other points of the route?

[Vitesse2]

Chambourcy is west of Paris, on the road between St Germain-en-Laye and Aubergenville, half way between St Germain and junction 7 of the Péripherique where it joins the A14 and becomes the E05.

Meulan is in the complex of roads near the airport, directly south of Vigny.

[Vitesse2]

http://www.multimap....e=200000&icon=x