45 replies to this topic

[totoslot]

Hi,

I'm new to this board and this is my first posting.

As intro a few words to my person: I'm nearly 45 years old, working for the R&D dep. of Bilstein shock absorbers as dev. engineer near Wuppertal Germany. My main hobby is 1/24 oldtimer slotcar racing, collecting and building.

I need some (pretty special, I guess ) information of the 1938/1939 Mercedes M154/M163 motor. I've easily found the corner stones like bore, stroke, etc of the 60°-V12 as well as a cross-section of the 1st (I think) cylinder bank. The needed data has to do with the crankshaft angles (there are a lot of possibilities). Of best help would be a pic (or drawing of course ) of the crankshaft and/or the camshaft and/or the ignition sequence and angles.

In the meantime I have been told by a friend that the ignition sequence of the M154 resp. M163 was 1-12-5-8-3-10-6-7-2-11-4-9. This information was taken from the Heel book "Die Akte Silberpfeile" (the international title could be "the file silver arrow"), ISBN 3-89365-840-8.

If this is correct the crank pins should be located on a 3x120°(x2) crankshaft, with the crank pins #3 and #4 [of cylinder 5 + 6 resp. 7 + 8 (in the middle of the motor)] being in the same plane with an ignition offset of 360°. It seems to be a kind of (semi-)flat-plane V12.

Every hint is welcomed. Thanks in advance !!

totoslot

[Ray Bell]

You need to PM Marion 5drsn.. and Karlcars...

[Hans Etzrodt]

Toto,
Welcome at TNF.

Available books from Karl Ludvigsen do not mention the firing order used for the M154 series engines or the M163. However many other aspects of the engines were discussed in his The Mercedes-Benz Racing Cars. His relevant books do not contain many details about the crankshaft, let alone crank angles.

The information you are looking for, might be found in Cameron C. Earl’s book. He wrote a specially commissioned 143 page report on the Mercedes-Benz and Auto Union before WW 2, a B.I.O.S. Report “Investigation Into the Development of German Grand Prix Racing Cars Between 1934 and 1939,” published by the Stationary Office, London, 1947. This book was reprinted in the late 90’s under the title “Quicksilver: An Investigation Into The Development Of German Grand Prix Cars 1934-1939.” I have neither of the two books and could not be convinced of their usefulness to me in comparison to the products by Karl Ludvigsen.

[Barry Lake]

Investigation into the Development of German Grand Prix Racing Cars... agrees on the firing order quoted in the original message.

Unfortunately there is no mention of crankshaft angles, in the text, nor in specifications, nor any clues in the drawings.

Back in 1982 I met and became friendly with a mechanic (engineer?) named Karl Limberger, who looked after these cars for the Daimler-Benz Museum. I doubt that he still would be there, although it is possible.

Karl sent me a lot of information on the W154 cars for a detailed story I wrote. Unfortunately this was more historical than technical, so there is nothing on the details you are after.

But I am confident that if you contacted the Museum and could get through to the right person, there would be someone there who could supply the information. There are some very knowledgeable and enthusiastic people there (although you might not think so when they do such things as 'restore' the Moss/Jenkinson 1955 Mille Miglia 300SLR with a single head rest!).

Try going through the public relations department. I feel if you are persistent, you will get your answer sooner or later.

[bschenker]

The book “Schnelle Motoren seziert und frisiert” wrote from Helmut Hütten, in the 10th edition 1994.
ISBN 3-87943-974-5

I think in the older edition you can find a larger part, in this 10th edition you find on page 280 to 286 the title “Die sagenhaften Silberpfeile” information about the M154 and M163 engine.

http://www.silviomoser.ch/m163.jpg

You can sea the crankshaft must by like an 6 cylinder with crank angel from 120°, cylinder 1/2 and 11/12 in on line, 3/4 and 9/10 after 120° and 5/6 and 7/8 at 240°.

[totoslot]

Thanks for the link to the cross section drawing !

Of course the 120° angle between crank pin #1 and #2 (Cylinder 1+2 resp. 3+4) can be guessed from this picture (which was the one I referred to in my original posting ;) ).

totoslot

[bschenker]

The design lucks the rear side of the engine, you can sea the flywheel, and also the distribution is on the rear. So you sea connecting rod 12 and 11 on top point, the connecting rod 10 and 9 is more in front a 120° so the only possibility for the next, 7 and 8 is on 240°. For question of engine balancing by a 12 cylinder V with 60° angle, the only way is the front part has to mirror the rear.

[bschenker]

I found a table in “Kraftfahr Technisches Taschenbuch” from Bosch 20th edition from 1987.
ISBN 3-18-419105-2



You sea response for the question about balancing different types of engines. Also I repeat the M163 design for immediate visibility and a picture from the mounted engine.

[bschenker]

Sorry

[totoslot]

Originally posted by bschenker
Sorry

Dear Beat,

well, no reason to say sorry.

I totally agree that this page from the Bosch booklet shows the crankshaft setup of a standard V12-60° motor. But regarding the M154 we're talking of a “state of the art” racing engine.

Less torsional stress on the crankshaft and a more consistent torque charactaristique (resulting in less weight -> rotational inertia) and regardless any front to end vibration (which would be a killer argument on a street V12!) is an argument that possibly the two V6 3x120° units were put together with an offset angle, similar to the V6’s splay angles (but not for vibration reasons).
For similar reasons there are cross plane and flat plane V8 motors. You’ll find this under the address http://autozine.kyul...ine/smooth4.htm.
(hope the link works)

And I’m still in doubt if the firing order from “ Investigation into the Development of German Grand Prix Racing Cars” is correct (isn’t it to logical??) and can be taken as proofed. But, on the other hand, it's our only source, at the moment ....

Best regards

totoslot

[Wolf]

I thought this matter was settled (two sources, IIRC, claiming the same firing order)... Seeing this is not so, I'll throw in my 2c worth, and try to settle it. R. Bussein Automobiltechnisches Handbuch, Berlin 1942 claims firing order of a V12 engine to be 1-12-2-11-3-10-6-7-5-8-4-9. This is achieved with the same crank as M163 is supposed to have* (successive throws at 120° in direction of crankshaft rotation), but with no regard for heat dissipation problems caused by firing the neighbouring cylinders successively- so the M163 firing order seems to have more sense for given crankshaft layout.

* it is only a matter of switching (2-11) and (5-8) sequences, and both pairs of cylinders have the same position of throws....

This is all assuming cylinder banks to be 1-6 and 7-12, with first pair 1-7. Come to think of it, then the all three crankshafts we're discussing would be exactly the same... Which can be seen from first 1-12 part of the sequence (both cylinders being on furthermost ends of the engine, would translate to 1A-6B in different notation).

[bschenker]

. But regarding the M154 we're talking of a “state of the art” racing engine.

I’m agreeing this engine was state of art, in 1939 , look the later M196.
I’m only mechanic but my interests was always technology. The first time I study the book from Eng. Helmut Hütten was 1955 the first edition. Later with edition five in the hand I used the first for the illustrations of my schoolbooks (profesional school).
In all this time I have never heart from a 12V 60° engine with other disposition then this in the Bosch book. Other solutions you can only find by other angles. Mr. Hütten wrote, Mercedes in this time looks for exactly distributed interval’s, to remember also the weight (? Formula 750kg), I think this exclude all other solutions. This is also possible to sea on the exhaust in groups of tree, 1/3/5, 2/4/6/, 7/9/11 and 8/10/12 in the photo before but also in this new picture.



In an example, nominated from Mr. Hütten, from Porsche with his type 753, 8 cylinder 3l racing engine with a crankshaft like two four cylinders turned one from the other 90° degrees. The 771 2l has a more equilibrated crankshaft. 1969 the 753 were changed to the 2l crankshafts and the driver declared for the engine a lacy acceleration. The lap times testify the contrary, the impression was caused from less of vibration.
Other question it’s the firing order. Before you can tell this order you have to sea the numbering of the single cylinders. Below a possibility solution of numbering.



In this case one possible order its 1-8-5-10-3-12-11-6-7-4-9, you can change the numbering like below (remember distribution on the rear).



In this case it’s possibly 1-12-5-8-3-10-11-2-7-6-9-4

[Wolf]

Bschenker, I belive You're numerating the cyls the wrong way... The source I mentioned before has cyls 1 through 6 on one bank*. Maybe we should resort to old way of having pairs of cyls with A and B for either bank:

1A-2A-3A-4A-5A-6A-
-1B-2B-3B-4B-5B-6B

In that case German sequence from '40 would be:

1A-6B-2A-5B-3A-4B-6A-1B-5A-2B-4A-3B,

which can be easily substituted (same crankshaft) for:

1A-6B-5A-2B-3A-4B-6A-1B-2A-5B-4A-3B.

If we used following cyl numeration,

1-2-3- 4- 5- 6-
-7-8-9-10-11-12

second sequence would translate in Toto's.

* the second bank had Roman numerals, so one transcribing the order might've found it easier just to assign numbers 7 through 12 to the other bank.

P:S: Toto- please check the firing order You listed in the first post. I belive there is the key to solving this little mistery- because Your sequence indicates this way of labeling cylinders being used. The key is two successive even numbers, something that could not happen if we used Bschenker's labeling system with even cyls on one bank and odd on the other.

[bschenker]

You’re right, but luck the design from the rear part of the 154/163 engine. The first connection rod is on the rear side, so when you sea it’s from the front is on the left bank. The first cylinder from the front of this engine is also on the right bank.

[Roland Kunz]

Hello

If you contact the MBC Oltimer group ( OTC ) they will link you to the archives or to the right persons who can help.
One racemechanic is retired in Waiblingen/Eisental and runs a motorcycle tuning & engeenring company ( Now his son runs it ). You will find him in the Phonebook if you look for EGI.

Grüsse

[karlcars]

Well, this is an interesting one! It's true that I haven't always paid close attntion to crankshaft layouts and firing orders. I guess I'd better rectify that in the future!

About the M154, my book 'Classic Racing Engines' shows a full cutaway of the engine by Vic Berris, who was always very careful about his sources. Examination of this should be useful. Anyone interested in racing engines should have this book, which I'm sure is available through either through Haynes, its publisher, or from Amazon.

I have a specification sheet for the W154 drawn up in 1966 by the D-B Museum's Mr. Huelsen. It shows the firing order as:

1-8-5-10-3-7-6-11-2-9-4-12

Although I have a lot of documentation on the development of this engine, none of it speaks to the crank layout or firing order.

It's good to hear from someone at Bilstein! I was very friendly for years with the company's Hugo Emde, ambassador to the racing community without equal.

[bschenker]

A full design of al length would help. I have problems with an order from equal or uneven sequences like 3-7 and 4-12 this need an unusual crankshaft design. I think in this case, this must by note in the documents.

[bschenker]

I still think the 154/163 engines have traditional crankshafts. Lucking the design why have connecting rods number 11, 12 at 0° and 9, 10 at 120° so for 7 and 8 the only solution possibility it’s 240°. I sea not any reason why the six front cylinders would have other solution then mirroring the rear side.
Maybe for an airplane engine, normally used on specific revs, the solution can be different. Some solutions from plane engines with corrections were adapted to car engines, but in the story of racing car engines, I don’t remember a plane engine having success, other wise car engine was successful adapted as airplane engine. On a racing car you have to luck also for drivability and her is also important the balancing, I think also in the past. You can sea this today by Renault, with al computer possibilities, hi needed a year to resolve stiffness and vibration problems on the 110° engine, so only now the car is competitive.

http://www.silviomoser.ch/12v60des3

Returning to the fire order, I have elaborated the recent design. Now you can sea the cylinders in right position for firing, on the single phases during two turns for a four-stroke engine. You can sea order like 11-3, 10-6, 9-1 and 8-4 or similar must by false.

[totoslot]

Originally posted by bschenker
I still think the 154/163 engines have traditional crankshafts. Lucking the design why have connecting rods number 11, 12 at 0° and 9, 10 at 120° so for 7 and 8 the only solution possibility it’s 240°. I sea not any reason why the six front cylinders would have other solution then mirroring the rear side.
Maybe for an airplane engine, normally used on specific revs, the solution can be different. Some solutions from plane engines with corrections were adapted to car engines, but in the story of racing car engines, I don’t remember a plane engine having success, other wise car engine was successful adapted as airplane engine. On a racing car you have to luck also for drivability and her is also important the balancing, I think also in the past. You can sea this today by Renault, with al computer possibilities, hi needed a year to resolve stiffness and vibration problems on the 110° engine, so only now the car is competitive.

http://www.silviomoser.ch/12v60des3

Returning to the fire order, I have elaborated the recent design. Now you can sea the cylinders in right position for firing, on the single phases during two turns for a four-stroke engine. You can sea order like 11-3, 10-6, 9-1 and 8-4 or similar must by false.

Dear Beat,

I agree that we have 3x120° between the first three crank pins and I agree that we have 3x120° between the last three crank pins!

I think you agree that we're putting to 60°-V6 motors together. But wouldn't it be of a certain advantage to have crank pin #3 and #4 NOT in the same plane?

An offset of 60° (or 180°, 300°, ....) would give us a (very driveable) firing sequence of 12x60°=720°, if done right the result should be a reduced torsional stress of the chrankshaft.

If someone can do a scan of the full cutaway of the engine from 'Classic Racing Engines' (see posting from Karl Ludvigsen) to show it here that would be the best help besides an original drawing of the crankshaft itself.

Best regards

totoslot

[fines]

Originally posted by bschenker
Below a possibility solution of numbering.



In this case one possible order its 1-8-5-10-3-12-11-6-7-4-9, you can change the numbering like below (remember distribution on the rear).



In this case it’s possibly 1-12-5-8-3-10-11-2-7-6-9-4

I'm no expert on firing orders, but the numbering of cylinders is always done the same, and different from your drawings. It starts at the "far side" of the engine (opposite of the transmission), and with the cylinder that is farthest to the left (9 o'clock), then continues with cylinders on the same plane, and then clockwise to the next (bank of) cylinder(s).

On a 60° V12 that would be one to six for the cylinders at "11 o'clock" and seven to twelve for the cylinders at "1 o'clock", always looking at the direction of the transmission.

As for firing orders, I understand that, depending on crankshaft throw, there is only one possibility for a V4, two for a V6, three for a V8 and six (?) for a V12. Now back to the experts...

[Wolf]

toto, did You check whether the firing order You posted is typed in correctly? Seeing Karl's firing order, as Bschenker pointed out, is for all intents and purposes impossible to make, that could be the only lead, and if it's correct it could contain the key to cylinder numbering that was used...

Meanwhile, should I make a list of all possible firing orders and crankshafts?

BTW Michael, I have been told that certain French manufacturers (not sure if they were the only ones) used numbering from the transmission...

[fines]

Originally posted by Wolf
Meanwhile, should I make a list of all possible firing orders and crankshafts?

Yes please, maybe it helps understanding all that stuff! From what I've read so far on the subject of explaining firing orders, the only clue I got was that these authors knew little more than myself...

[bschenker]

I cant remember a Mercedes engine on that’s time as V6. Four in line, eight in line, eight at V, six in line and twelve at V?
I learned a six cylinder in line is nearly perfect balanced and a V12 60° is considered like two in line six cylinders. The most firing order on a six cylinder is 1-5-3-6-2-4 so normally you turn one bank and for the order you change from on bank to the other.
The difference on this engine, sea it’s from the front the first cylinder (1a) is on the right side, with this is not possible the last cylinder 12 (1b) as next in order. The thing change lucking from the rear the first cylinder is still on the right (now 1a), the difference is the engine turns from that’s view counter clockwise and so it’s possible the next in order is 12 (now 1b) with the rest like the six cylinder order.
I think the solution with 3 and 4 different then 9 and 10 needs more place and with this a change in distance between the cylinders. On the pictures above, looks like a regular distance.
To sea this engine like two V6 has only sense tacking the power in the middle like on the M196 (two four cylinders).
I’m surprise; no where observe that’s in the first order missing one cylinder!

[bschenker]

I think this engine design clears al questions about his crankshaft and with this the possibly firing orders.

[Wolf]

Thanks for the great pic, Beat!

[marion5drsn]

totoslot; I am working on this but the firing order is #1-12-5-8-3-10-6-7-2-11-4-9. this is from the book QuickSILVER by Cameron Earl.Page # 78 Line # 3. It states it is for the M163 and makes no mention of the M154. Will get more tomorrow as it is now 9:00 o'clock Paciific Coast time. Yours M.L. Anderson

[bschenker]

I think this order is impossible for the simply fact that’s 60° after cylinder 10 firing, cylinder number 6 is not on top.

[marion5drsn]

Totoslot; I have no direct information on the M154 engine firing order but on the M163 you will find the firing order is
#1-12-5-8-3-10-6-7-2-11-4-9 this is from the book QuickSILVER page # 78 line 3. As there is no firing pattern for the cylinder-numbering disposition I will go to some extent to explain this characteristics.

The first V-12 engine that I know of is the old Packard Twin Six engine of about 1912;it was named the Twin Six for a very good reason. All V-12 engines are actually six cylinder engines that just happen to be arranged in a double Vee for reason of size containment. In other words they are shorter than a straight (inline) 12-cylinder engine.

Since I haven’t a cylinder-numbering chart I must go to some length to find just where # 1 cylinder was located. Firstly I have in the past made firing patterns of many V-12 engines such as Cadillac, Rolls-Royce,Allison, Packard, Lincoln, Sunbeam, Continental, Maybach and many others that I have since forgotten. All V-12 engines fire the same pattern but unfortunately the various manufactures have chosen to number the cylinders in different ways.
The Germans used the Din Standard as # 1 thru 6 on the right side and 7 thru 12 on the left side. Again unfortunately Maybach did not do this before they made the HL-200 series engines and therefore their engines are numbered the opposite way, which appears to be # 1 on the left front. If this isn’t enough to make one swear (Widerborstigkeit) then I don’t know what would.
To check on the Maybach V-12 firing orders go to the address below.

http://www3.sympatic...ml/maybach.html

You will find that the firing order is exactly the same as the one given in the book on the M163, However some of the firing orders are different due to the use of another cylinder as #1. (Widerborstigkeit)
I believe that the actual firing pattern is the same, but I haven’t a way to find the cylinder numbering system! If you find the firing order and numbering system of the M-B-605 aircraft engine used in the ME-109 I would appreciate your posting to me or on this board. Another thing to remember is that the firing order has nothing to do with the rotation of the engine. Except for a few automobile’s, engines turn to the right when viewed from the front. This was done by the first engineers who likely broke a few thumbs, fingers, hands, wrists, forearms and only they know what else before they learned to not wrap their thumbs around the crank handle and a few other reasons that I’m sure you can visualize can happen to careless people on hand cranking front engine cars by right handed people.
Yours Most Sincerely, M.L. Anderson

[marion5drsn]

I have just received a message from Ulrich Moller Frederiksen stating that the firing order of the DB 605 V-12 engine used in the bf-109 is #1-8-5-10-3-7-6-11-2-9-4-12 . Unfortunatly he was unable to come up with the cylinder numbering system . Were I a gambling man I would bet it's on the right front, drivers/pilot view. This is the same as the one Maybach but is not like the M-163. this may be due to the DB-605 being an inverted engine, altho the Maybach was not an inverted engine. Without knowing the position of #1 cylinder this is a very difficult task. Yours, M.L. Anderson.

[bschenker]

Normally the first cylinder lucking from front of engine is numbered as 1. On the M154/163 this is clearly on left side, in this case you have the follow possibility.



Normally an engine turns clockwise lucking still from the front.

Otherwise on this engine you find the timing gear on the rear side, in this case it’s make sense to start from the rear side with the numbering of cylinders, like this design.

The engine turns always in the same way, but lucking from the rear side now counter clockwise. This means you find the follow condition for the cylinders in position to fire.
....0° = 1 + 11…..60° = 2 + 12…120° = 5 + 7…180° = 6 + 8…240° = 3 + 9…300° = 4 + 10
360° = 1 + 11…420° = 2 + 12…480° = 5 + 7…540° = 6 + 8…600° = 3 + 9…660° = 4 + 10

About this you can find watts firing orders it’s possibly.

[Ray Bell]

Not intending to disturb this thread, nor to imply that anything here is incorrect, I would like to point out that some engines do turn the opposite direction, especially in this day and age of transverse front-wheel drive rubbish.

The Honda Coupe 5 and Coupe 7 is one, and the Peugeot 204, 304, 305. Probably more by these same makers do as well, but I'm not at all familiar with other engines they make.

[Ray Bell]

Like I think I said, Marion, I was not intending to imply that there was any difference in the direction of rotation of this engine. But the statement that engines rotate the same way has come up a couple of times in the thread and I wanted to make the point that there were exceptions to the rule.

Send me the sketches and I will post them if you like... and someone* has bschenker's e.mail address, I seem to recall.

[Wolf]

Marion- why can't You send him? There is a 'e-mail' button on his posts, just click on it and it will open a mail window...

[marion5drsn]

Ray, we are not talking about front wheel drive or any other stuff after WW-2, engines can be anything if FWD or Mid engine. If one notices the car we are talking about has a hole in the radiator for a hand crank. Also I am on the last laps of settling this thing as the firing pattern is same for both firing orders and the only difference is the numbering of the cylinders left to right as to number one cylinder. Now if I can only figure a way to send an E-mail to be bschenker I believe we can resolve this thing with no problem. He has a problem with English and I have a problem with sending my sketches .Yours Most Cordially M.L. Anderson

[Ray Bell]

Wasn't he crank a mechanical one as used on the Indianapolis cars for years?

[marion5drsn]

Ray; I don't know who was the first person to use front electric starters, but if one has a hole for a hand crank then one could also use it as a opening for either one, that is a hand crank or an electric starter. At the time when this car was made I don't believe that external electric starters where being used. I am hoping that somewhere someone will come up with an answer about this. It seems to be an interesting piece of information. Yours M.L. Anderson

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure I've seen film of these starters being used on pre-war Mercedes cars, probably in the Shell film, wasn't that The Titans? And possibly in film of that fire in the pits at the Nurburgring...

If that's so, it was in vogue for this model for sure, it being virtually the last one of the era.

A picture of such a starter in action would be nice...

[bschenker]

I think my words were ‘normally’ clockwise!


This is the point woo finished the hand crank or electric starter trough the hole in the radiator and luck light this is for clockwise, with the reserve of a correct design.

My email = or or beat@pitagora.ch

[bschenker]

Sorry but its luck like I’m wrong with the firing order, it’s the one tat I learned in 1960 in my professional school and used also in my working practice.
M.L. Anderson (marion5drsn) mentioned DIN norms, he is right. DIN 73021 for cars engine
(Kraftfahrzeugmotoren) and DIN 6265 for marine engines (Schiffsmotoren). I checked my notice in the schoolbook and fund noting about this. Especially in the time of the M154 and M163 engines it’s was usual use for all DIN norms, and probably also Mercedes. This means the correct cylinder numbering (DIN 73021) is the follow.

The order given from karlcars ‘1 – 8 – 5 – 10 – 3 – 7 – 6 – 11 – 2 – 9 – 4 – 12’ (also Mr. Anderson for the DB605) will working.

Wee can also use the DIN 6265 (lucking from the rear) for the use of back timing drive, this cylinder numbering is the following.

In this way works the firing order from totoslot confirmed from marion5drsr ‘1 – 12 – 5 – 8 – 3 – 10 – 6 – 7 – 2 – 11 – 4 – 9’ and also the one from Wolf ‘1 – 12 – 2 – 11 – 3 – 10 – 6 – 7 – 5 – 8 – 4 – 9’ works.

Here also the design received from Mr. M.L. Anderson about the Maybach engine.


O.K. norms but in the practise I have always used to place the parts in order how fitted starting from the front of engine. In the 1967 I have to build up a Ferrari engine (think from a GT250) livered as single parts in tree boxes. My help a cutaway design, bolt torques, timing date (cams) and valve clearance. I built the firing order by myself whit the learned system for fit the ignition cable and it’s worked.

[bschenker]

here the first design

[marion5drsn]

If the numbering of the cylinders is # 1 front left and all odd numbered cylinders are on the left and # 2 is on the front right and all even numbers are on the right this would correspond to the Cadillac of 1935 to 1937. At that time the firing order was # 1-4-9-8-5-2-11-10-3-6-7-12. The Lincoln of that period had the same firing order. This engine was made from about 1935 to 1948
Yours M.L. Anderson

[totoslot]

Originally posted by bschenker


I think this engine design clears al questions about his crankshaft and with this the possibly firing orders.

Dear Beat,

this picture is a great help to me, cause my interest was on the crankshaft
design and not primarely on the firing order (which is pretty self-explaining
with a given rev direction and defined cylinder numbering).

Could you please tell me where you've find this drawing?

A big "Thank you" for your on-going efforts on this problem.

Best regards

totoslot

===========================END=============================

[bschenker]

Karl Ludvigsen make verry nice books and a big pubbliciti in this Forum. Realy this books is a good investment.

[totoslot]

Originally posted by bschenker
Karl Ludvigsen make verry nice books and a big pubbliciti in this Forum. Realy this books is a good investment.

Dear Beat,

which one of Carl's books is it?

Best regards

totoslot


==============END=============

[bschenker]

Classic Racing Engines ISBN 1 85960 649 0 (English)

[marion5drsn]

http://home.earthlin...PATTERNV-12.JPG

http://home.earthlin...SHAFTDINSTD.JPG

http://home.earthlin...ENDVIEWV-12.JPG

http://home.earthlin...NGLEV-1260D.JPG

This is the complete crankshaft/firing pattern and the method of checking the layout for correctness! . M.L. Anderson