55 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

(Bira - Don - this may be the wrong thread for this, but transfer or delete as you see fit???)Statisticians - has a Jaguar racing programme EVER suffered a longer period of demeaning lack of success (abject failure?) than Ford's current marketing-masterminded (huh!) Formula 1 misery?

Many involved enthusiasts such as myself are amazed - not too strong a word - that when Ford undergoes a top management revolution it fails to use that opportunity to pull the plug on a misbegotten programme which has done nothing but harm to a charismatic image previously so hard won... The fact that a multi-national Corporation can absorb the former Stewart operation, and perform worse, simply boggles the mind. Or are the lunatics within that empire still running the asylum - and screwing up for us what had been a British motor racing institution?

DCN

[Bernd]

I'm no statistician but I am in complete agreement with you Doug.
I remember thinking it was going to be a disaster even before their first Grand Prix in Melbourne 2000 when wherever you looked all you could see where huge advertisements for Jaguar F1. It soon became obvious that the marketing dept had gone nuts and spent more of the budget than the racing team. Entire building sides and Trams were repainted in Jag colours it was just nuts!
My particular favourite was 'The cat is back'...... excuse me but I didn't realise they were ever there in the first place

[Buford]

You guys are too anal. It is cooler to be in F1 (or racing in any series) than to be too chicken to try.

[Wolf]

I think they made perfectly horrible team out of Stewart... Rebadging cars (even though I know I'm a bit too harsh) isn't much of a promotional activity.

Then again, I'm quite amused when Moss takes Jag drivers to his task on his website; one of the best was when he said (probably flaming Eddie and Pedro) that Jag can't do better unless it has two drivers deserving to wear the leaping cat on overalls...

[jarama]

Originally posted by Wolf


Then again, I'm quite amused when Moss takes Jag drivers to his task on his website; one of the best was when he said (probably flaming Eddie and Pedro) that Jag can't do better unless it has two drivers deserving to wear the leaping cat on overalls...

Wolf,

wich website are you relating to, with these comments of Stirling Moss about the Jag' drivers?

[Leif Snellman]

Actually Doug, I think I'm at the moment more concered about Niki's reputation than Jaguar's.

Originally posted by Bernd
It soon became obvious that the marketing dept had gone nuts and spent more of the budget than the racing team. Entire building sides and Trams were repainted in Jag colours it was just nuts!

I have a magazine called "Jaguar Racing" (March/April 2000) in front of me. If I remember correctly I got it as a free supplement to "Autosport". It says "Available worldwide from issue two". I wonder, how many issues were ever made? I cannot remember ever seeing another one.

My particular favourite was 'The cat is back'.

My "favourite" also.

I entered Jaguar's web site a few minutes ago and it got my computer to lock up completely. Its hardly surprising that the cannot get the cars to work if the cannot even construct a working web site!

[Vitesse2]

When you're in a hole, sooner or later you have to stop digging. In this case, I'm not sure who is holding the shovel. Lauda?

The whole point about Stewart was that, while we all suspected it was a vehicle for Ford to test the water, it was a team which actually built fan loyalty around JYS and on the back of the success of PSR. That was just tossed in the bin when the Ford marketing guys got hold of it, along with Johnny Herbert at the end of the next season.

Bernd - your reaction to "The cat is back" was exactly the same as mine! There is NO Jaguar heritage in Formula 1 - had they returned to sports car racing the slogan would be merited.

Anyway, I'm just going to sit back and wait for Megatron ....

[Flying Panda]

Originally posted by Buford
You guys are too anal. It is cooler to be in F1 (or racing in any series) than to be too chicken to try.

:up:
Absolutley.
You cant have success without failure. I dont think how a team performs in the presesnt should be anything to compare its former glory with.

If Jagur was a top marque back in the 50's and 60's, and they are coming last now, I dont see how that makes them any less of a great marque. Coming last makes you look better than not competing at all.

Look at Lotus. Back in the ninetys when Lotus was coming last, did that make their success in the 60's and 70's meaningless??

Of course its not going to look good on that stats sheet, but what does?

[bobbo]

At least under the Stewart badge, they did get a win. Since then, down, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN! Maybe Niki has something to do with it? After all, his size 12 ego in a size 8 body has to come down somewhere! And, the Corporate mindset of Ford/Jaguar can't help!

On the other hand, there's Minardi, still plugging along, hanging in there, with 10% the budget and TWO points this year . . .

And Jordan is rumored to be getting FORD Cosworth engines . . .

Mercy!

Bobbo

[Wolf]

Jarama, the exact words are:

It is the combination of car and driver that is the key to victory and it will not go better at Jaguar until they have drivers worthy of carrying the Leaping Cat on their uniforms.

It's from http://www.stirlingmoss.com/news.html (click on Season 2001, it's in Spa report)...

I guess this weeks' race made him cringe, the memory of Morocco stirred by another Ferrari 'tactical' team victory... : But I suppose he's too much of a gentleman to comment on it.

[jarama]

Thankyou, Wolf,

and about today's facts, is absolutely ignominious and shameful. I don't have words to express my rejection.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Buford
You guys are too anal. It is cooler to be in F1 (or racing in any series) than to be too chicken to try.

My arse! Otherwise good point - totally accepted - but you conveniently overlook the crucial point; this isn't the Morgan Motor Company tackling F1, or TVR or Ole Shel, or Ganassi, or the Petties - in fact any of those outfits would probably make a better fist of it.

It is Ford behind that Jaguar badge and whatever their protestation they demonstrably will NOT commit in a manner which enables the team to punch their weight against Fiat, DaimlerChrysler, BMW. There's a world of difference between being too chicken to try and being too dumb to try properly...

DCN

[dretceterini]

Maybe Ford will decide to rename the F1 team Aston Martin...

[Megatron]

Hey now, what do you mean that they had not been in F1 before. We all know the legendary Jaguar powered Ferrari that ran at Monza in 1950. You people can't take that away from them!!

Wolfgang Rotzele had Jag fourth in the CC before the R1/SF04 had even turned a wheel. They also had a magizene that no one wanted, merchandise that went overboard, and a coat of paint that took precedent over the car's performance.

And what was Ford thinking? A suitable 2000 season would have seen the team called Ford, the car running in blue and white, and Stewart at the helm. Instead, we get a manufacturer whose roots are in sports car racing and the advert "The cat is back"? I never knewd that one start meant so much to them!

For three years, its been a waste of a perfectly good engine. If a down on budget Arrows can score points, it only underlines the whole R3 thing.

I find it odd that after years of calling the Ford engine "Cosworth" virtually everyone refers to the Cosworth engine as "Ford" now. The blue oval should dump that catsuit.

And don't forget that the whole Jag concept was at the recomendation of Rotzele with Jacques Lesser backing it up.

On another note, I hear that there are plans for a MOVIE about Jaguar Racing to debut possibly as early as next year. Apparently, it will be a halloween special entitled "I know what a bad car you designed last summer".

[Wolf]

Sorry for my fit of stuttering, it was becouse of this afternoon's posting rush (obviously, not without USER ERROR too), but I still can't delete the posts...

[BRG]

As contrary as ever, can I sound a differing note? Firstly, of course the Jaguar F1 exercise has been disastrous - there is no escaping that - but should Ford cut and run or should they stick to their guns until they get it right?

I think the latter - why? Because Ford has a history of quitting or of luke-warm efforts. Let's see.... Ford's two sports car efforts (F2(?) and C100), the rally GT70 and Escort RS1700T, the Beatrice Lola episode, the Mondeo in touring cars (which only came good when virtually everyone else withdrew) and so on. It is time that they stood their ground and got it right.

Oh, and Sir Stirling is being a bit of an old fogey, I fear, in suggesting that the drivers are not worthy of the Cat. I have little time for Edmund the Swerve, but Pedro de la Rosa is probably the best racing driver to come out of Spain for very many years and is highly under-rated. Put in a decent car, he would be a revelation.

[Doug Nye]

I'm all for contrariness.... I tend to agree on PdelaR - but it would at least be polite to see Ford persevering under its own name (The Dagenham Dustbin indeed) rather than ------------ -- Jaguar's....

DCN

[wsshores]

Jaguar, or Ford under-their-own-name, or Toyota, or anybody else will have a tremendously difficult time being successful in F1. The key to success is hiring the most brilliant engineers. And they are already busy working for the Big Three.

[dmj]

Jaguar today isn't unlike Alfa Romeo 20 years ago. But I don't see if that unsuccessfull F1 adventure make any harm to Alfa other than commercial one. And commercial side isn't so much of a problem for FoMoCo... So, I doubt that Jaguar image will suffer too much. But, on the other side, Alfas were decent F1 cars for most of the time, and it can't be said of Jags.

[Keir]

Maybe they should call themselves BMC????

[BRG]

BMC?? Aaarrrgghh, Allegro!

But wasn't there British Leyland sponsorship briefly on an F1 car in the late 1970s? Or am I hallucinating again?

I find the attitudes towards the whole Jaguar thing interesting. For me, I see no problem with Ford deciding to highlight one of their prestige brands by means of an F1 team. OK, Jaguar have no real F1 heritage, but they do have a notable motor-racing heritage, including Le Mans and WSC wins, so what's wrong with them stepping up to the top table? I know that they have made a porridge of it - but is that the only reason for the hostility towards this enterprise? Would everyone (including even Megatron) be cheering them on if they had come into F1 like gang-busters and taken the fight straight to Maranello? I wonder.

[fines]

Leyland sponsored Williams in 1980.

And yes, BRG, I totally agree with you! Losers are those who don't compete, Jaguar (Ford) is not a loser!! And what's wrong with rebranding? Fiat does it for many years now...

[dmj]

Originally posted by BRG
BMC?? Aaarrrgghh, Allegro!

Allegro would be a nice name for a F1 team, too. I wonder if a race car of that name was ever built? Marina exists...

[ry6]

I find it all very sad.

I know that it's not easy, but Toyota are approaching the task more sensibly I think, and a team like Jaguar (Ford) with their resources should be closer to the pace.

Well this is the nostalgia forum and now I am thinking that if 3 or 4 car teams were allowed again maybe we would have more competitive cars in the field.

Then again maybe we would have more "team order" wins?

[Gil Bouffard]

Where to begin. Where to begin....As a Ford stalwart I have been quite disappointed in the front office management for a long time.

The announcement of Bill Ford's being placed at the top of the heap made me feel a little better, but I haven't seen much trickle down to where it belongs.

I look back at the days of Michael Kranefus and SVO. To Shelby. The ability of FORD to get Duckworth and Costin to build a racing engine for a few dollars (mind you, thousands) and make it a world beater.

Along come the Donald Peterson's, Red Poling's, Jacques Nasser's and their horde of bean counters and Bottom Line becomes more important than performance.

Ressler reminded me of the guy who ran Beatrice-wanted to get into F-1 so his daughter could get lucky. A little like David Thieme (Essex Oil) who played big with an empty pocket.

Pulling Bobby Rahal from CART to F-1 was another stupid move. I lost interest in Bobby after he accused Stefan Johannson of "racing," against him!

Then pitting him against "The Rat," a person who has enough ego for a small country, was bound to end as it did.

What they need to do is get the YES men out of there and kick some real ass!

It is too bad that Jaguar is being dragged through this mess, but I'm sure that the people over at Aston Martin are happy that Ford didn't choose them.

Goofy is as Goofy does!

Gil

[Kaha]

Originally posted by dmj
Allegro would be a nice name for a F1 team, too. I wonder if a race car of that name was ever built? Marina exists...

Why not, they have already got square steering wheels

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Kaha


Why not, they have already got square steering wheels

It wasn't "square", it was "quartic" (whatever that was supposed to mean!)

[Kaha]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


It wasn't "square", it was "quartic" (whatever that was supposed to mean!)

OK, so lets say that both F1s and the Allegro has squareish steering wheels ;)

[Garagiste]

It's really terribly sad, I've loved the marque since I knew what cars were.
"The cat is back" was right up there with the "Tradition of Excellence" from BAR. Maybe they meant the smokes.
BTW, "Jaguar Racing" is still being published IIRC, I'm pretty sure I saw last months issue somewhere.

[dretceterini]

DMJ:

As a long time Alfa fan, I must tell you that by the 80s, even we didn't care about Alfa. The cars that they built then were crap. Their F1 and Indy car efforts were a joke. The last Alfa of any importance to a true Alfisti is the T33....and in F1 the 158/159..

[dmj]

Why Alfa fans (including me) shouldn't be proud of, let's say, touring cars victories with GTV (former Alfetta GT) in Eighties??? Or Montreal, if we speak of road cars? Do you know that Classic and Sportscar poll voted for Car of the century some time in mid Nineties, and that humble Alfasud was somewhere in Top 40? (Best placed Alfa was 8C 2300 in 3rd, if I remember well...)

[dretceterini]

well, you aren't in America! The Alfetta based cars we got were bad, but not as bad as the rubber bumpered spiders of the 80s. The 75 (Milano) was a hideous joke; parts would fall off every other day.

I've had over 30 Giuliettas, Giulias, 102, 105 and 106 series cars, so I know what an Alfa is SUPPOSED to be like..now if I could only afford an 8c2900B..

The Sud never came over here, and the Montreal was 70s, not 80s.

I wouldn't mind having a new 156 GTA, but GM has been promising to have Alfa here by 2001, and 2002 is half over. With the current state of FIAT, and the fact that they will robibly be nothing more than a division of GM soon, I don't know if I would actually want an Alfa by the time they do get here (if ever)

[LB_13]

Originally posted by Buford
You guys are too anal. It is cooler to be in F1 (or racing in any series) than to be too chicken to try.

[ry6]

[QUOTE
Pulling Bobby Rahal from CART to F-1 was another stupid move. I lost interest in Bobby after he accused Stefan Johannson of "racing," against him!

Then pitting him against "The Rat," a person who has enough ego for a small country, was bound to end as it did.

What they need to do is get the YES men out of there and kick some real ass!


___________________________________________________________________

This sounds more and MORE like modern corporate businesses.

"Stabbing in the back", psycophants (hope the spelling is ok), and "politicians" working against their own friends/teammates to grab glory at the expense of success of a project.

Or am I missing something?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Many involved enthusiasts such as myself are amazed - not too strong a word - that when Ford undergoes a top management revolution it fails to use that opportunity to pull the plug on a misbegotten programme which has done nothing but harm to a charismatic image previously so hard won...

Surely their grid positions at Monaco highlight how low they can go? Only Yoong in the Minardi behind them...

[Alien]

Leaving the historic aspect of it.

The situation in Jaguar is critical, they are actually worse than minardi, Jaguar right now is the worst team in F-1. They have to thank Yoong that they both (PDLR and big mouthy) aren´t on the back row. I mean everybody last year was laughing about the possibility that Arrows beat them with an identical engine. Bernoldi is paying for his drive for god´s sake. .

This year Lauda and his team are exploring a popular concept: "How low can you go?"

Can you remember a team in history that (proprotionally) with so much budget, did so badly????

[Ray Bell]

Ummm... BRM, 1950 and 1951?

[Alien]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Ummm... BRM, 1950 and 1951?

You are right about the performance part:

The then-new 4.5-litre unsupercharged Ferraris dominated the meeting. The BRMs matched them only in outright speed, timed over a kilometre. On the long straight, Parnell achieved 186 mph 1n a BRM. the best of the Ferraris reached 178 mph. So, in that respect, complexity gave a slender advantage over simplicity, but just how much was lost in corners can be seen from lap times: Ascari placed a Ferrari on pole in 2 minutes 23.8 seconds, while Parnell qualified the best of the BRMs in 2 minutes 30,4 seconds, some 4mph slower.

from: http://8w.forix.com/brmp15.html

The budget part says that it was about £50,000 per season. I have no idea how much that means right now.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
has a Jaguar racing programme EVER suffered a longer period of demeaning lack of success (abject failure?) than Ford's current marketing-masterminded (huh!) Formula 1 misery?

Just thinking back to Doug's original post, the Jaguar XJ saloon car programme in the late 70s (?), run by Broadspeed, was a pretty poor effort too as I recall. it wasn't until TWR got hold of the XJS that there was any success.

And thinking back, have Jaguar really got such a wonderful record in racing? Yes, the C and D types were good, in the hands of Ecurie Ecosse and others, the Silk Cut TWR cars did well in Group C days, and the XJS programme was OK. But that's about it.

[Vitesse2]

Group 44 anyone?

[BRG]

But IIRC Group 44 and Bob Tullius were completely unofficial entries - eventually Jaguar sent TWR to have a look at it and effectively take over their efforts. Plenty of people have done well privately with Jaguar products - it is when it is an officially sanctioned entry that things are not always so successful.

[MarkWill]

Please don't knock the beautiful XJC cars from Broadspeed. It was a valiant and very Jaguar-like effort, in a series for which the Jaguar name was well suited.

The problem as I see it is that the Jaguar name has no serious F1 history, and unlike Mercedes (whom I think Ford are trying to emulate with their F1 effort) they are trying to go a step further, having the engine AND the chassis. But lets be honest, a Ford Jaguar (road car or racecar) has a hard time to have the same cachet as the Jaguar-built Jaguars of old, especially now that Ford seem to be hell-bent on making Jaguars into expensive cars for the masses, while still trying to call them "exclusive".

Its sad that the F1 effort isn't producing results, but right now they need patience and money if they want to succeed, or someone to sell their outfit to. I still hope Jaguar can get it right, and will compete against the Ferrari's as Jaguars, and not as Fords.

[BRG]

Originally posted by MarkWill
Please don't knock the beautiful XJC cars from Broadspeed.

Granted it was a valiant effort, but we have to be realistic and admit that it was not awfully successful. The cars looked terrific, I agree, but they were not very reliable.

[MarkWill]

They were also very fast on occasions - their main failing was to demonstrate was Jaguar-like reliability (OUCH ) , but some would argue that it gave future jag owners a clear demonstration of what lay ahead of them, so it was definitely honest.

[cabianca]

I wouldn't look to Bill Ford as a savior. His lack of racing knowledge was shown when he uttered the words, "Who the hell is Eddie Irvine." The fact is that the program was doomed from day one. I believe Rahal had won something like five races over eight years as a CART owner. Was that the kind of record Ford was looking to achieve? Team management in F1 consists of knowing who to hire. Who did Rahal know in F1 - no one!

I find the most amusing part of the whole fiasco that Jackie took Ford's money to build up the team and then sold Stewart for $150M US to Ford who had already paid for it once. Jackie may be small potatos when it comes to net worth compared to many in racing, but he still knows how to hold onto a buck, pound or franc. Almost all Ford's successes in the past came when they contracted with outsiders to do their racing for them. Admittedly, there was Ford corporate involvement in the original Indy program and the beginning of the GT40. But it took Shelby and Holman-Moody to win Le Mans for them.

[Ray Bell]

And JW...

But the lack of usefulness in racing of Ford is best exemplified in the old 'Kent' FF engine, surely? With a crankshaft so weak it can't stand the full weight of the original flywheel remaining bolted to it at revs and so many other problems that they need a lot of money spent on them regularly, it was hardly going to promote confidence in the marque among those who knew what was goiing on.

[MarkWill]

Doug, Don, Ray, BRG, Vitesse2,Cabianca, Rye6....EVERYONE WHO KNOCKS THE JAGUAR EFFORT --WHAT DO YOU WANT??????? Be realistic- unless Ford buys Ferrari, you are NOT going to get a race winning car right away. Stewart Ford is an organization which has ceased to exist for some two years or more now. They rarely looked as if they would topple the big three, and I doubt they had the resources to do so, even though it looked as though they might come awfully close at times.

Jaguar are trying hard, as are several other teams, but they are some years away from having a mature team, and even then, it will take something exceptional before they break into the winners circle (in french there's a saying which roughly translates into "its not because you WANT to be Marcel Proust, that you are necessarily going to BE him).

Where Ford have tripped up in the past is that they have always produced a fundamentally good base for future success, but they have then become disnchanted too quickly, and passed on the rest to privateers who have been able to exploit the original Ford product's potential, much to the embarassement of the Ford guys who dropped the project.

I also don't think that England will win the World Cup, but as long as they're there, I'll support them.

[buzard]

Prior to it's sale to FORD, Jaguar's reputation was already compromised. So now that FORD has
entered F1 why not put Jaguar on the team? If they win, it's a FORD product. If they fail,
what do you expect, it's a Jaguar! A handy scapegoat. A win/win scenerio for marketing!

buzard
Bob Thurman

[AyePirate]

My two cents:

I think you ever want to illustrate the difference between a "Marque" and a "Brand"
all you have to do is look at Jaguar F1. As a marque it has nothing to do with Jaguar,
but as a brand all of the hullaballoo surrounding the launch of Jag F1 did seem to
coincide with a large upswing in Jag sales (which is what Ford really set out to
do, winning would just be gravy). Although I think that may have been
down to the 24/7 playing of that Sting music video/Jaguar ad than any
efforts made in those Green Stewart GP cars.

Jag F1 also shows us how not to do go Formula One racing.
It still boggles my mind when I see how most of the grid make major
staff changes every single year and they still seem surprised why things
always seem to go badly. For contrast , look at Ferrari, McLaren & Williams.
The same core of key players every year and always near the front. Notice how
almost losing Newey in 2001 has hurt Mac. Williams have been unable to
get any closer to Ferrari this year and they have also lost one of their
key aero guys to BAR. Coincidence? I don't think so. Things have been stable
at Renault for a little while and, surprise! they're moving up the grid!
Continuity seems to be a lot more important than budget.
If you have both, that makes you....Ferrari.


Just to keep this post "Nostalgic"; Is Jaguar F1 the new BRM?

[buzard]

Is Jaguar F1 the new BRM?

Since the Jaguar management "know" they are doing poorly , the answer would be NO!

buzard