We saw it today in Barcelona. Schumacher nearly took off with the fuel system dangling behind the car. He was lucky it just snapped loose when he took off.
A replay of something that happened to Verstappen in '97 at Arrows. Only in that case, he took the refueling system with him.
In both cases, the lollipop man raised the lolli and for a driver, that is a signal to floor it. A point of no return as well. Human reaction times are too bad to avoid stopping again in time.
This leaves me with the question:
Why is that man positioned on the left side of the car?
He has no clear view on the refueling guys. In Ferraris case, he probably thought the hose was free based on the jerking movements of the guys doing the hose. Too late, he figured out it was NOT released yet.
I see no point at all why this guy is at that specific place. He's with his back to the pitlane, so also for overview of incoming and leaving cars, it would be better to stand on the right hand side of the car. Is this purely done for his guiding in of the car?
I just don't get it...You opinion?
Lollipop man!
Started by
Mosquito
, May 08 2000 04:30
30 replies to this topic
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#2
The Swerve
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 04:42
I guess he stands on the left because he is directly in the drivers field of vision as he goes to pull away.
In the past pitstops weren't so crucial because time was more easily made up on the track over the duration of a race by driver skill.
Now, with the races carved up in 'sprints' between fuel stops, it seems as though things are getting a bit too frantic in the pitlane. In these days of races being won and lost in the stops the pressure is really on for the crews to be the quickest. In the rush to get the cars out ASAP, safety seems to be going out the window.
There have been several incidents where pit crews are making mistakes and fumbling the stops and I put that down to the fact that the only way the cars can pass each other is in the pits.
Is that fair? Is that how F1 should work? The guy with the fastest wheeljack wins?
What do you think?
In the past pitstops weren't so crucial because time was more easily made up on the track over the duration of a race by driver skill.
Now, with the races carved up in 'sprints' between fuel stops, it seems as though things are getting a bit too frantic in the pitlane. In these days of races being won and lost in the stops the pressure is really on for the crews to be the quickest. In the rush to get the cars out ASAP, safety seems to be going out the window.
There have been several incidents where pit crews are making mistakes and fumbling the stops and I put that down to the fact that the only way the cars can pass each other is in the pits.
Is that fair? Is that how F1 should work? The guy with the fastest wheeljack wins?
What do you think?
#3
Ripples
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 04:46
OK, here's a piece of irony for you:
Nigel Stepney (the chief mech that got hurt today) used to be the lollipop - I think about 3-4 seasons ago (1996?) and he wasn't happy with how the fuel right people were handling it. He said in an interview that he decided eventually to do move to that position instead, to make things more efficient. So I wouldn't be surprised if he now decides to switch back to the lollipop position!
By the way, the position to the left provides better view of the entire crew than to the right. I'll try and find you an arial picture of a pitstop and you'll see for yourself how they are organised. Where they stand does bear logic and let's not forget that since 1994 there have been... what? 2,000 pitstops or more? Considering that, I'd say that the lollipop system works well.
Nigel Stepney (the chief mech that got hurt today) used to be the lollipop - I think about 3-4 seasons ago (1996?) and he wasn't happy with how the fuel right people were handling it. He said in an interview that he decided eventually to do move to that position instead, to make things more efficient. So I wouldn't be surprised if he now decides to switch back to the lollipop position!
By the way, the position to the left provides better view of the entire crew than to the right. I'll try and find you an arial picture of a pitstop and you'll see for yourself how they are organised. Where they stand does bear logic and let's not forget that since 1994 there have been... what? 2,000 pitstops or more? Considering that, I'd say that the lollipop system works well.
#4
Mosquito
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 04:47
Swerve,
Once the drivers pull away, they're off. It's a point of no return. Like a space ship blasting away from earth.
Maybe it's because Bernies FIA digital cameras reserved the right hand side of the car. They can be found there a lot, VERY close to the car....
Once the drivers pull away, they're off. It's a point of no return. Like a space ship blasting away from earth.
Maybe it's because Bernies FIA digital cameras reserved the right hand side of the car. They can be found there a lot, VERY close to the car....
#5
mini mum
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 04:49
Perhaps the time is nearly here where we don't support individual drivers but individual mechanics. Think I'll go for the offside front wheel man at Jordan - no reason except he's got quite a cute bum and he's quick. Seriously though because the pit stops are becoming crucial in the winning of races perhaps safety in the pitlane needs to be addressed urgently.
#6
The Swerve
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 04:58
Mossy, I think there is an advantage to be had from the driver not having to turn his head from the right to the left. Might slow him down a fraction?
#7
Mosquito
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:01
Ripples,
I could agree with that on the fact that the fuel people would hamper his view to the guys on the right hand rear when they raise there arms.
Shouldn't somebody anyway hint the lollipop man just as well? The guys doing the wheels raise there hand to signal they're done and free of the wheels. Shouldn't there be a guys signalling the fuel rig from being freed since the guy with the stick does NOT have a clear view on that essential place?
I could agree with that on the fact that the fuel people would hamper his view to the guys on the right hand rear when they raise there arms.
Shouldn't somebody anyway hint the lollipop man just as well? The guys doing the wheels raise there hand to signal they're done and free of the wheels. Shouldn't there be a guys signalling the fuel rig from being freed since the guy with the stick does NOT have a clear view on that essential place?
#8
Ripples
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:11
Ok, have a look at this picture (it's from today's race - though not sure which stop # it is), and I think you will understand yourself:
As you can see, by standing where he is, the lollipop guy can look straight up and have a clear view of both the driver and the fuel rig area. Had he stood on the right hand side, he would have to turn his head to the left to see the fuel hose men and then turn his head back to the right to see the driver and further to the right to see the front wheels.
Strategicly, he is standing at the best position to be able to maximize his vision with the most natural head position, which in such tight-milisecond operation is critical.
As you can see, by standing where he is, the lollipop guy can look straight up and have a clear view of both the driver and the fuel rig area. Had he stood on the right hand side, he would have to turn his head to the left to see the fuel hose men and then turn his head back to the right to see the driver and further to the right to see the front wheels.
Strategicly, he is standing at the best position to be able to maximize his vision with the most natural head position, which in such tight-milisecond operation is critical.
#9
Mosquito
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:23
Ripples,
I rest my case. Looking at this picture, it looks as if he is indeed least hindered on the view of the car. Can he look clear pas the drivers head? I probably forget how frigging low such an F1 car is if you stand 1,80 tall or something the likes...
Thanks for the pic.
BTW: It's WAY too crowded there, that's for sure...
I rest my case. Looking at this picture, it looks as if he is indeed least hindered on the view of the car. Can he look clear pas the drivers head? I probably forget how frigging low such an F1 car is if you stand 1,80 tall or something the likes...
Thanks for the pic.
BTW: It's WAY too crowded there, that's for sure...
#10
Mosquito
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:25
But, looking for a bit longer....I'm still a bit in doubt. ...
#11
Ripples
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:30
Mosq.
Something you might notice is that they all wear headphones with microphone, and there's a man in the middle who is not doing seemingly nothing. He's doing the shouting. "Tyres" "Out" "Off" -- something like that. It's very millitary and as you may well know they practice this a lot. The lollipop's job is not to figure out when exactly everyone's cleared, his job is to maintain eye contact with the driver and turn the lollipop 1x one direction and 1x the other direction. He does, however, have to be aware of the sorroundings, because sometimes the man in the middle will year "clear" and something goes awry. So he's not a robot and he needs clear vision, but the decisions are not made only based on his vision.
And yes, if you ever stood straight next to an F1 car you'd realize how low it is
Something you might notice is that they all wear headphones with microphone, and there's a man in the middle who is not doing seemingly nothing. He's doing the shouting. "Tyres" "Out" "Off" -- something like that. It's very millitary and as you may well know they practice this a lot. The lollipop's job is not to figure out when exactly everyone's cleared, his job is to maintain eye contact with the driver and turn the lollipop 1x one direction and 1x the other direction. He does, however, have to be aware of the sorroundings, because sometimes the man in the middle will year "clear" and something goes awry. So he's not a robot and he needs clear vision, but the decisions are not made only based on his vision.
And yes, if you ever stood straight next to an F1 car you'd realize how low it is
#12
Mosquito
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:44
Ripples, I sat in one once. It's darn frigging hard to get out!!! You're cocooned.
Ok, so who's fault was it then?
I remember the Lollipop guy slamming the thing down again, just too late since MS was already off.
Did somebody give the wrong signal, said the wrong thing?
I guess they have the same practice as in lfying: Reserved words for every single detail. So no "Yes, Ok, Done" or such things, but specific words agreed upon on forehand to signal whatever is happening, clear, etc..."
Ok, so who's fault was it then?
I remember the Lollipop guy slamming the thing down again, just too late since MS was already off.
Did somebody give the wrong signal, said the wrong thing?
I guess they have the same practice as in lfying: Reserved words for every single detail. So no "Yes, Ok, Done" or such things, but specific words agreed upon on forehand to signal whatever is happening, clear, etc..."
#13
Ripples
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 05:57
Having watched that pit stop by now at least 20 times, including at 1/8x speed, I am inclined to think of two options:
1) it was actually Stepney's fault. The fuel hose was out, everyone were taking their timed step backwards but for some reason stepney didn't (he wasn't the one holding the hose).
2) the "Go" word was given just a split second too early.
In any case, I sense it's not the poor lollipop's fault.
1) it was actually Stepney's fault. The fuel hose was out, everyone were taking their timed step backwards but for some reason stepney didn't (he wasn't the one holding the hose).
2) the "Go" word was given just a split second too early.
In any case, I sense it's not the poor lollipop's fault.
#14
Williams
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 06:06
The key piece of missing information here is the fact that each person sigals that he has completed his job by raising his hand in the air. I am not sure that the fuel rig guys do this, since the rig reqires the use of two hands, but for sure they use some physical que, such as the fuel man stepping back, as an indication that the refuelling process has completed. The lollipop man simply jumped the gun.
I blame some of this screw-up on the race leadership, i.e., Brawn. Before the pit-stop, Brawn was excitedly pacing back and forth between the gargage and the pitwall, because MS had lost so much time so quickly to MH, and he proabably transmitted his anxiety to the pit crew. These guys are usually operating very much on the edge of excitement, and I think the subtle air of panic in the Ferrari garage translated into this horrible mistake.
I blame some of this screw-up on the race leadership, i.e., Brawn. Before the pit-stop, Brawn was excitedly pacing back and forth between the gargage and the pitwall, because MS had lost so much time so quickly to MH, and he proabably transmitted his anxiety to the pit crew. These guys are usually operating very much on the edge of excitement, and I think the subtle air of panic in the Ferrari garage translated into this horrible mistake.
#15
P1 Pyrsol
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 07:01
I believe the lollipop man wears a headset because he is told when to lift. If I was running a team I would have one man (or Heidi) who had nothing to do but communicate this to the lollipop man.
#16
selena
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 07:45
Looking at the replay, the whole thing boils down to bad co-ordination.
The lollipop man lifted up the lollipop too soon only to slam it down again. By then Michael was already off. Thank God nothing serious happened to Stepney.
No use having good strategies if the pit-crew cannot perform efficiently and effectively.
The lollipop man lifted up the lollipop too soon only to slam it down again. By then Michael was already off. Thank God nothing serious happened to Stepney.
No use having good strategies if the pit-crew cannot perform efficiently and effectively.
#17
Williams
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 08:19
Usually they perform very efficiently and effectively. Everybody makes a mistake once in a while.
#18
Williams
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 09:00
ripples, i don't know what pit stop you were looking at, but when I looked at it frame-by-frame, the hose was clearly still in the car as the lollipop man lifted, and nigel just got the hose out while the car began to move. Neither him or the crew-member assisting beside him moved or otherwise indicated comletion before the lollipop came up. It clearly wan't Nigel's fault.
#19
Cinquecento
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 14:00
Lollipop man. LMAO! What a professional title!
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#20
FredF1
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 14:10
Poetic justice.
Ferrari were the team who insisted on keeping refuelling when every other team wanted it banned. Then when they got Brawn on board they decided that tactics in the pit lane were the way to go - HA BLOODY HA!
Of course it'll take a major fireball taking out several teams before the FIA will even hold a meeting or ten to discuss "How refuelling can be made even safer" or some such crap.
Ferrari were the team who insisted on keeping refuelling when every other team wanted it banned. Then when they got Brawn on board they decided that tactics in the pit lane were the way to go - HA BLOODY HA!
Of course it'll take a major fireball taking out several teams before the FIA will even hold a meeting or ten to discuss "How refuelling can be made even safer" or some such crap.
#21
Peter
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 15:10
Remember that the lollypop man also has to ensure that the pit lane is clear - not that McLaren seem aware of that duty!
Therefore he needs to be in a position to stop his driver from taking off into the side of a passing car.
Isn't it a shame that the pit crews are human (and therefore fallible) and not 100% efficient like most of the posters here!
Come on guys, it was a simple mistake due to the pressure of working at the limit.
The real dissapointment for me was that they did not get the fuel hose on for the second pit stop - with Hakinnen in as well, that would have been a dramatic exit (possible collision) if they had similar stop times!
Now don't get me wrong - the last thing I want to see is an accident in the pit lane, but after Barichello's near miss, I think it is only a matter of time before a crash does occur!
Therefore he needs to be in a position to stop his driver from taking off into the side of a passing car.
Isn't it a shame that the pit crews are human (and therefore fallible) and not 100% efficient like most of the posters here!
Come on guys, it was a simple mistake due to the pressure of working at the limit.
The real dissapointment for me was that they did not get the fuel hose on for the second pit stop - with Hakinnen in as well, that would have been a dramatic exit (possible collision) if they had similar stop times!
Now don't get me wrong - the last thing I want to see is an accident in the pit lane, but after Barichello's near miss, I think it is only a matter of time before a crash does occur!
#22
desmo
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 15:14
Perhaps a system that prevents the car from accelerating away until the filler rig is disconnected from the car?
#23
Laphroaig
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 15:23
100% robotic pitstops, offers a nice technology boost for some firms
If this happed more often Max will introduce GT/LeMans type stops, no working on the car as long as the fuel hose is in (tank first, then start changing tires)
If this happed more often Max will introduce GT/LeMans type stops, no working on the car as long as the fuel hose is in (tank first, then start changing tires)
#24
Clatter
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 18:58
I think another reason why the lollipop man stands on the outside is so that he can see down the pitlane. It is one of his duties to check for approaching cars and if he was on the inside this view would probably be obstructed.
I still think it was his fault. No matter what, it his duty to ensure that everyone has completed thier bit. I think he reacted to the refuelers movement which looked like he was pulling the hose out, but for some reason it didnt come out first time.
I still think it was his fault. No matter what, it his duty to ensure that everyone has completed thier bit. I think he reacted to the refuelers movement which looked like he was pulling the hose out, but for some reason it didnt come out first time.
#25
dingledell
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 07:34
Here's a theory for you all to chew over.
I would have thought that the lollipop man gets the all-clear from a member of each corner's tyre crew, and for the refueller team, when the chap holding the fuel 'anti-splash' lollipop lifts his lollipop, the main lollipop man lifts his. (Are there too many lollipops in that sentence).
What we need is an insider to tell us the procedure - I did try emailing Tony Jardine a week or so ago (tonyjardine@itv-f1.com) but it got returned as undelivered after 147 tries!
The lollipop man must surely be given some signal from the refuelling team, as I would have thought that he would not have a clear view from his position of whether the hose was disconnected.
Maybe he's taken the day off to write his CV??!!
I would have thought that the lollipop man gets the all-clear from a member of each corner's tyre crew, and for the refueller team, when the chap holding the fuel 'anti-splash' lollipop lifts his lollipop, the main lollipop man lifts his. (Are there too many lollipops in that sentence).
What we need is an insider to tell us the procedure - I did try emailing Tony Jardine a week or so ago (tonyjardine@itv-f1.com) but it got returned as undelivered after 147 tries!
The lollipop man must surely be given some signal from the refuelling team, as I would have thought that he would not have a clear view from his position of whether the hose was disconnected.
Maybe he's taken the day off to write his CV??!!
#26
dingledell
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 07:39
Oh yes . . . and another thing !!
What would be the consequence of the driver pulling away with the hose still connected?
Does the fuel remain in the hose at shut-off, or does it shut off at the rig - my guess is that it shuts off at the nozzle only.
Could be nasty.
What would be the consequence of the driver pulling away with the hose still connected?
Does the fuel remain in the hose at shut-off, or does it shut off at the rig - my guess is that it shuts off at the nozzle only.
Could be nasty.
#27
Damop
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 21:12
Why do guys named Michael hit their refuelling men
#28
Mosquito
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Posted 08 May 2000 - 21:18
LOL Damop,
You must be referring to Andretti in '98 I believe?
You must be referring to Andretti in '98 I believe?
#29
speed queen
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Posted 09 May 2000 - 05:32
Originally posted by Mosquito:
LOL Damop,
You must be referring to Andretti in '98 I believe?
Milwaukee in '99 and last weekend in Rio, although in Rio it wasn't Mike's fault. Very similar to Schumacher this weekend.
#30
Mila
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Posted 09 May 2000 - 06:54
Cinquecento, "lollipop man" isn't that bad. would you rather be known as "the guy with the hose"? judging from the events yesterday, there does seem to be greater risk involved!
#31
selena
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Posted 09 May 2000 - 07:10
Two mistakes by the same pit crew on the same day is very bad. It shows that they do not practice much (although I know they do). Very unprofessional! Off course, they are only human and there is a lot of stress and tension in this sport. But this is only to be expected. The stress, tension and excitement should make one perform better and produce excellent results, not otherwise.
