38 replies to this topic

[ScudBoy]

Now you may agree or disagree about the team orders that were issued, but the thing i find most interesting is the haphazard decision making that lead to the team orders....

Did Ferrari really just expect MS to outpace Ruby on race day and therefore not worry about concocting a strategy ahead of time?

Why did they fuel RB ahead of MS if they were going to make him switch at the end? Why didnt they fuel MS more than RB on the first stop to allow him to go for a pass during the second round of stops? or even 'accidently' provide a slow stop for RB? Sure it would have been an underhanded approach to ensure RB didnt win - but so is the result in the end is just as underhanded in itself....

MAYBE

RB wanted to show that he had the race won like last year and left it to the last moment to swap.

Or Ferrari allowed RB to show the world that he could have won BUT at the same time also show that they run the whole show, by deciding who is the victor in the end.... if this is the case i guess they didnt figure on the level of outrage that their decision would create...

[The First MH]

Read in one of the other posts that the decision was actually made 8 laps from the end. Rubens only waited until the end - probably to prove a point... can't say I blame him.

[ScudBoy]

Originally posted by The First MH
Read in one of the other posts that the decision was actually made 8 laps from the end. Rubens only waited until the end - probably to prove a point... can't say I blame him.

8 laps is still pretty late in the game... they could have organised it during pits stops to save face, so why didnt they?

[Williams]

Originally posted by The First MH
Read in one of the other posts that the decision was actually made 8 laps from the end. Rubens only waited until the end - probably to prove a point... can't say I blame him.

I believe there is some controversy over that. MS let slip that he didn't find out until the last lap. So who is lying ?

Ferrari were caught off guard. I don't believe they thought that Rubens would actually win, they probably thought Michael would take him on his in/out laps during the pit stops. The safety car messed all that up, then when Montoya speared into third place on the last few laps, making some unexpected points for the WDC, someone pressed the panic button.

[Thunder]

And Brawn said they didnt race because they ordered them to ease off.

[Eau Red]

Originally posted by ScudBoy


8 laps is still pretty late in the game... they could have organised it during pits stops to save face, so why didnt they?

they might not care too much about the backlash. would you, if you thought you were right? faking a long pitstop or something says, "we know this is wrong, we're trying to hide it."

[FlatFoot]

Originally posted by Williams
Ferrari were caught off guard. I don't believe they thought that Rubens would actually win, they probably thought Michael would take him on his in/out laps during the pit stops. The safety car messed all that up, then when Montoya speared into third place on the last few laps, making some unexpected points for the WDC, someone pressed the panic button.

Bingo! This sums it up as well as anything I've read today.

[ScudBoy]

Originally posted by Eau Red



they might not care too much about the backlash. would you, if you thought you were right? faking a long pitstop or something says, "we know this is wrong, we're trying to hide it."

Yes but faking a pit stop problem if done right would have gone largely unnoticed, fuel rig didnt go on cleanly, problem with a wheel nut etc etc.... how could anyone besides the mechanic involved and todt have know the truth?

[kouks]

Originally posted by Williams


I believe there is some controversy over that. MS let slip that he didn't find out until the last lap. So who is lying ?

Yes, I smell a rat!

extract of Bob Const interview with JT

Q: When exactly did you tell him?
JT: I think it was lap 63. Both of them. But he did not say no because he passed him, didn't he.

So JT or MS is lying. I suspect MS was offered the win and took it. He had 8 laps to convince Ferrari it was a bad idea if he REALLY thought that. I think that's why he felt guilty on the podium and in the conference.

[Williams]

But he did not say no because he passed him, didn't he.

Hmmm that sounds a bit sleezy. Passing the buck. Or is he saying that Michael actually had a choice ?

[Eau Red]

right, but my point was that Ferrari thought they had nothing to hide. A cover-up never works in the end, anyway... ask Richard Nixon.

I think Williams (the poster, not the team) got it right... it was a last-minute decision, not some premeditated sinister conspiracy. All this outrage is really a bit ridiculous.

[ScudBoy]

Okay guys this is Ross Brawn's take on it, make of it what you will:

"It would have been very simple to orchestrate it. It would be easier to change the pit stops around.

"It would be easier to have done other things to make it less obvious but to have done it in a clandestine way would have taken taken credit away from Rubens," added Brawn.

[Williams]

Eau Red agreed, but I can understand the outrage. It was an ill-considered management decision made on the fly under enormous pressure. A huge blunder on Ferrari's part.

[Thunder]

Originally posted by ScudBoy


Yes but faking a pit stop problem if done right would have gone largely unnoticed, fuel rig didnt go on cleanly, problem with a wheel nut etc etc.... how could anyone besides the mechanic involved and todt have know the truth?

Make one tyre of rubens have .1 psi more and mission accomplished. No need for more.

[100cc]

Originally posted by Thunder


Make one tyre of rubens have .1 psi more and mission accomplished. No need for more.

.1 psi?

hardly makes much of a difference.

[B747]

Originally posted by Williams
Ferrari were caught off guard. I don't believe they thought that Rubens would actually win, they probably thought Michael would take him on his in/out laps during the pit stops. The safety car messed all that up, then when Montoya speared into third place on the last few laps, making some unexpected points for the WDC, someone pressed the panic button

If you see at declarisons of MS previous to the race, you can easily see, MS was almost convinced he was not going to beat Rubens here.

[ruther]

Barrichello said on brazilian TV that the order was given at 3 laps to go - that makes sense, because after that, he began going slower...

[PK]

They couldn't do anything at the first pit-stop due to the safety car situation and maybe they were worried for some other incident during the second, so no pitstop foul-up. Maybe they also felt that since it is common knowledge that Barrichello is the 1b driver there wouldn't be more of an outcry than last year - maybe they thought that fans would like it as a new tradition at Austria?

[annica]

Simple. They wanted M$ to wake up. If they wanted they could have screwed RB earlier. They didn't. It made a show on the last lap. M$ 'needing help' from Rubens, oh the humanity.

M$ is awake alright. Now watch M$ driving the wheels off his F2002E Special Edition in Monaco.

M$ will try everything to avoid this situation again. Best way to do it is to be faster than RB. Apparently, NOT easy!

[pRy]

The lap times say it all. MS set his fastest lap 3? laps from the end. Rubens lost 1 second to Schumacher around the same time, and from that point on, MS was gaining gaining gaining on a slowing Rubens. This was far from a "last lap" decision. MS intentionally put his food down at least 3 laps from the end. The work of a man who did not want to take the win? no. *IF* Michael had heard the order, and decided not to take the win, he could have settled for second, slowing down, but keeping Montoya at bay. It is quite common for second place to settle for 2nd around 5 laps from the end, slowing his pace. Michael increased his.

[Group B]

I wholly agree that it was last minute - and came from the very top. They could so esily have done it earlier if was pre planned, just by calling MS first during the safety car, or by calling RB a couple of laps early for stop 2 - giving MS time to make up those 3 seconds with his light fuel load, or by taking an exra 3-4 seconds getting RB's fuel hose on, etc. I suspect Monty had a paranoia attack late on and made the call to JT.

[pRy]

Further to my posts, here are the lap times :

Rubens 65 [1:09.815] 66 [1:09.927] 67 [1:09.839 ] 68 [1:10.209 ] 69 [1:10.313 ] 70 [1:10.273 ] 71 [1:13.004]


Schuma 65 [1:09.860] 66 [1:09.902] 67 [1:09.487 *] 68 [1:09.298 *] 69 [1:09.490 *] 70 [1:09.645 *] 71 [1:11.722 *]


One could conclude, that the fact MS set a time almost half a second quicker than Rubens, and quicker than his previous laps, that Ferrari instructed Schumacher at some point on lap 66, that he was to take the lead of the race. His next laps are all quicker than Rubens. In Schumachers defence, his last lap is some 2 seconds slower than his second to last lap. Suggestion he lifted on the straight prehaps, but after 4 laps of pushing, the intent was always there to take the lead. imho.

[magic]

Asked whether the call was against the spirit of competition, Brawn replied: "You say that but we had told the drivers not to race each other.

"We told Michael not to push and Rubens not to push so we were not racing."

we're in for a great season.

[Mosquito]

Magic, nice to see you need your own thread as well.

[magic]

The best of F1 is, as we all know, a certain Michael Schumacher. Yes boys, face it, he's the best. Just look at the guy! This is a certain winner. Expect many more podiums this year. quote mosquito

the losing winner

[falco^p]

First of all,anyone who hasnt as yet read the Constanduros interview should do so immediately.
On the one hand I find JT comments baffling -on being asked if he was surprised by the reaction of the spectators,he answers:
"I think they were happy to see Ferrari winning! OK, we had to make decision and we took the decision. I am sorry that a lot of people are unhappy, but some other people are happy. Some of our mechanics are happy as well. May be they will realise by the end of the seasons that the decision was right decision...."
On the other he blatantly confesses that Ferrari could have 'helped' MS in the lead much earlier- but that they preferred having Barrichello as the moral victor.

He also says this:
Q: At the launch in Maranello this year, Rubens said that if he was in the lead, he would not be asked to pull over for Michael?
JT: "OK. It did not happen in the first race, it happened in the sixth race where we had one driver with 44 points and the other one with six points so we feel today that Michael has, again, maybe rightly or wrongly, we feel that Michael has more opportunity to win the Championship."


For what its worth, I tend to agree with most of the above posters- the decision was taken at the last minutes of the race. Despite JT's claims that he informed the drivers on lap 63 - both MS's implication ( of last lap orders) and RB's ( 3 laps to go) seems to suggest this was a hasty panicked upper-management decison.
Did they predict the PR fallout from all this? It amazes me that they could not have. As far removed from the day-to-day reality that spending millions of $$ on racing toys can make you- its still been a business first and foremost to many of the teams.So how?
JT seems to think all the furore will die down soon enough (a la austria 2001). Perhaps. But it will be hard for the fans of the sport to forget the lengths to which Ferrari (and Mr Montezemelo)will go to,to secure the championships. Particularly when the need was so unneccesary at least imho.
And it is saddest perhaps that Micheal will be remembered for this along with his many other more note-worthy accomplishments.

[Thunder]

Originally posted by magic


the losing winner

Magic, how Rubens did outpace MS using a lesser car and Ferrari screwing him?

[tania_walesuk]

I jus dont think they expected Rubens to win the race..... and when they finally realised he was they quickly made a change of plan and jus told RB to slow it and let MS take victory ... they were caught off guard they were very unprepared for the sudden change of plan they had !!!

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Williams
I believe there is some controversy over that. MS let slip that he didn't find out until the last lap. So who is lying?

From interview with Todt:

Q: When exactly did you tell him?
JT: I think it was lap 63. Both of them. But he did not say no because he passed him, didn't he

[HP]

Originally posted by Mosquito
From interview with Todt:

Rubens says 3 laps before the end. Other quotes of MS I have seen say towards the end with unspecified number of laps.

[CZM]

James Allan (ITV-F1) mentioned during yestrday's race that a piece of paper was passed around the Ferrari pit lane.


James then posed the queston, could this be an order for RB to let M$ win the race?

Can anyone remember the lap / time of the race when this comment was made?

[HP]

Originally posted by Williams


I believe there is some controversy over that. MS let slip that he didn't find out until the last lap. So who is lying ?

Ferrari were caught off guard. I don't believe they thought that Rubens would actually win, they probably thought Michael would take him on his in/out laps during the pit stops. The safety car messed all that up, then when Montoya speared into third place on the last few laps, making some unexpected points for the WDC, someone pressed the panic button.

Do you believe the "Montoya speared into third position" Better executed team orders IMO, after all he got past his teammate.

[Mosquito]

In fact, read the whole interview here: http://www.pitpass.c...esid=309&page=1

Another interresting point:

Q: Were you surprised by the reaction of the spectators?
JT: I think they were happy to see Ferrari winning! OK, we had to make decision and we took the decision. I am sorry that a lot of people are unhappy, but some other people are happy. Some of our mechanics are happy as well.

Reads to me as "Most of the mechanics feel pretty sheit about it"

Well, another thing Ferrari doesn't need, unrest and controversy inside the team itself. You need all your mechanics supporting your team for the full 100%, committed to the drivers, and the decisions and goals of the team.

This is not something where a team BBQ or day out will be enough to keep the team spirit high...

[Locai]

If I remember correctly, the story from last year was that Rubens was told with several laps remaining to let Michael pass but waited until almost the end. I believe that Todt was supposedly screaming into the radio at Rubens.

It's possible that we're dealing with a similar situation here (although I doubt it).

No matter what the real story is, this is a huge mistake on the part of Ferrari. Michael is going to win the WDC by much more than 4 points. They should have just let Rubens take the win. Even if Michael's season falls apart and he only wins the championship by only 1, 2, or 3 points it was still a mistake. If this was just so that Michael could finally win an Austrian GP then this certainly isn't the kind of win he should be anything but embarrassed about.

I'm very much a fan of Michael's, but I hope that the FIA takes away his points for this race. At least either take away 4 points from him and all 10 points from the WCC.

[tifoso]

After reading a few news items on Atlas F1, I'm starting to change my opinion. Like many of you, I thought Ferrari were caught off guard and executed team orders in a very sloppy fashion. But now I'm not so sure. Consider this from Atlas F1 News:

Brawn admitted that the decision had been made before the race and added that Barrichello was aware of the situation.

"It was made all weekend," Brawn said of the decision. "Rubens knows the situation he has just signed a new contract. He is aware of the situation. If he starts 2003 and is 44 points ahead against six points after six races he will get to take the wins in the same fashion. Rubens knows because of the circumstances. Even before the weekend it was a given.

The story about 8 laps or 3 laps or whatever is most likely when Todt and Brawn told the drivers about the decision. I really don't think Ferrari planned to wait until the last moment. I think Rubens decided to do it the way it was done after he received the radio call. Most of us are berating Ferrari, and some of us are berating Schumacher. Very few of us are saying anything bad about Barrichello. By gifting Michael the win just before the finish line, he lets the world know what he was told to do.

[Bruce]

Thanks Tifoso - I was just going to post that myself...

Now, as to Rubens and the rest of the season, does anyone really think that he will get "truly equal equipment" now? Ferrari apparently want MS to win the WDC, don't apparently believe that RB can, and cannot afford anymore embarassing incidents like Austria... so what do you want to bet that RB has outqualified MS for the last time this season, at least until MS wraps it up? What do you want to bet that RB continues to have a poorer record of reliability? Any money on him being able to challenge MS in a race situation now?

I'm not posting these comments to be a sh*t disturber - I'm posting them because it's hard not to be cynical about the outcome of the season now...

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by tifoso
By gifting Michael the win just before the finish line, he lets the world know what he was told to do.

Damn right. I'd be surprised if Rubens wasn't severely dressed down by Todt/Brawn for his decision to relinquish the lead on the home straight... 4m from the finish line.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Bruce
so what do you want to bet that RB has outqualified MS for the last time this season, at least until MS wraps it up? What do you want to bet that RB continues to have a poorer record of reliability? Any money on him being able to challenge MS in a race situation now?

I'm not posting these comments to be a sh*t disturber - I'm posting them because it's hard not to be cynical about the outcome of the season now...

Just 2 days ago, I would have called you a slanderous idiot.

But, as you said, it's hard to not be cynical for the remaining season, I'll give you that much.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by Bruce
Now, as to Rubens and the rest of the season, does anyone really think that he will get "truly equal equipment" now? Ferrari apparently want MS to win the WDC, don't apparently believe that RB can, and cannot afford anymore embarassing incidents like Austria... so what do you want to bet that RB has outqualified MS for the last time this season, at least until MS wraps it up? What do you want to bet that RB continues to have a poorer record of reliability? Any money on him being able to challenge MS in a race situation now?

Bruce, my husband said something very similar after the race. He wonders what this incident and the resulting outrage will do to the team dynamics and working relationships. They may very well have ruined one of the factors of their success. As to Ferrari being more underhanded in the way they "control" Rubens, I think we'll have to wait and see. Right now, they're still pretty defiant and saying the would do it again. It will be interesting to see how or if their tune changes over the next few weeks as they begin to realize the furor they have created.