57 replies to this topic

[schuy]

Sir Stirling Moss had the following to say about this interesting incident:

"The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If
they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It
is an endorsement of why
I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the
image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of
Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael,
who clearly did not want any part of it".

This is quite an interesting point.
Could Ferrari's sales lose due to this issue?

What do everyone think about Stirling's comments?

Didn't Sir Moss have to play second-fiddle to Fangio at times?

Liran Biderman.

[The Rock]

right stuff said from Moss but i still dont agree with the bit about MS being some sort of innocent angel.Its Schumachers team,hes the reason they did this, hes the one in the lead in the chapionship.If he did this directly or indirctly, it doesnt matter.Ferrari is built around Schumacher and prehaps rightly so.If he wasnt in the team i wonder would ferrari be where they are now,maybe, did again maybe not.I no MS fan but i will give the devil his dues,ferrari success is mainly down to Schumacher and the way he brought in the best people and was able to concentre the teams efforts on him.

[vroom-vroom]

Not really. Ferrari's reputation has lately become that of a pimp-car manufacturer anyway. I find their on- and off-track behavior quite fitting.

It is to be noted that all the hoopla about the last lap incident is quite unwarranted, IMO. The race results were decided way before the race even started, according to Ross Brawn himself. Thus, I have to conclude that neither Ferrari driver actually "raced", both knowing full well what the results would be.

Accordingly, I believe Barrichello's drive was quite flattered by the way MS "raced". Funnily enough, RB's the one who benefitted the most from this fiatsco, IMO again.

[pole sitter]

Sir Stirling
As for the decline in sales, that's unlikely. Somehow I don't believe that majority of those who buy new Ferraris follow the sport closely, or if they do they probably failed to see anything wrong with Ferrari's behaviour on Sunday

[Williams]

Originally posted by pole sitter
Sir Stirling
As for the decline in sales, that's unlikely. Somehow I don't believe that majority of those who buy new Ferraris follow the sport closely, or if they do they probably failed to see anything wrong with Ferrari's behaviour on Sunday

OK so what are we saying here about Ferrari owners.

"The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport."

Yes unfortunately this move has severely reduced the worth of this year's driver's championship. It's really a co-driver's championship now, unless another team can start to provide some competition before the end of the season.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by pole sitter
Somehow I don't believe that majority of those who buy new Ferraris follow the sport closely, or if they do they probably failed to see anything wrong with Ferrari's behaviour on Sunday

I own a Ferrari, I follow the sport very closely, and I looked on with disgust this Sunday past like most everyone else. You would be suprised at the number of Ferrari Club members that closely follow the sport, at least here in the states.

Originally posted by Williams
OK so what are we saying here about Ferrari owners.

I have been called worse than a non-fan!

[pole sitter]

Williams, Smooth:

I did not mean to offend all Ferrari owners. I was talking about buyers of new Ferraris.

[Williams]

OK, we'll let you off this time.;)

[The Fazz]

I don't know for certain if Sir Stirling Moss said that. Nevertheless, I have a huge amount of respect for Moss, and value those comments, if real and true.

I have a slight disagreement with Moss on the Austria decision being harmful to the sport and to Ferrari. By implication Moss, is also suggesting that it was the wrong thing to do. I respectfully disagree with both points.

In answering both points, F1 is no longer the sport which Moss and others participated in. F1 is business... and in business you have to take decisions which maximises the profit / or gets you towards your goal. Ferrari is the embodiment of the profit-driven face of F1 today. Neither does Ferrari attempt to hide this fact (although, I wouldn't even want to think of what else they would hide). It is the harsh reality that Schumi is the better driver, and all decisions made by Ferrari should revolve around him. It sucks, make no mistake... but as the Godfather would say, "it's nothing personal, it's business".

Ferrari has invested lots of money since 1996 to achieve one goal every year: the WDC & WCC. Every year, Ferrari and their sponsor pays for Schumi's salary and all the development work that goes into the car expecting one return... the world championships. Is one world championship enough? No... and more so to the business man. Total and utter domination is the key to it all, the benefit of winning in a single year has no sustainable marketing potential, and won't change customer behaviours. Only complete domination. Besides, with the kind of investment FIAT et al put into the Ferrari programme, the shareholders & sponsors will demand a significant return on their money. Sponsors don't care for such "sporting" decisions, in fact this kind of publicity is probably good for them.

Obviously, the powers that be have chosen to position the Ferrari (and all the sponsors) brand as the absolute best. And Ferrari cannot afford to fail... especially since they expect to float the team on the market. In business terms, nobody cares whether Rubens handed the Austria win on a plate to Schumi... what matters is the comfort that these decisions will and should net them the trophies, and hence a better business image & profits.

F1 is no longer a sport, but Ferrari didn't start it. Perhaps the first indication that F1 ceased to be a sport was when (was it) JPS first put their decals on Colin Chapman's Lotus. The second wave that pushed F1 further away from sport and into business was when Bernie decided to take control of F1 and made those many changes to it. As a result of which, F1 has earned itself an irresistable appeal to sponsors who think they can sell their products to billions of people across the globe at the fraction of the cost they would spend on 30 second TV ads all across the world.

Schumi appears to be a pawn for the new F1, but he is precisely designed for the modern F1. He is fast, dominant, articulate, looks okay on TV, he is not a techno-phobe (in fact he regularly encourages new fancy technology, whilst other drivers moan about this and that), and has a tendency to involve himself in controversy - in short a marketing man's dream come true.

As for Schumi being innocent of it all, again I have to disagree. Schumi is part of the Ferrari quest for the holy grail... he may not like the mob reaction in Austria, but he most certainly help create that environment which led to Austria.

Before I sign off, one comment on Moss v Fangio: from what I've read, both men raced as gentlemen, but Fangio was frequently the more successful of the two. I haven't bother to check it, but IIRC, they were teammates for only one year with the Silver Arrows, and frequently Fangio was faster, whilst Moss usually suffered breakdowns. In one race, Fangio allegedly let Moss win... but nobody knows for sure, because it wasn't a team decision. Moss suspected that Fangio let him win, but Fangio never admitted it. Moss as never as I recall "second-fiddle".

[magic]

i agree with sir stirling moss and i will not buy a ferrari.

[Sir George Head]

Magic,

you get really funny lately.

Funny that you condem Schumacher for everything the Brazilbullyboy Senna introduced in F1.

[Thunder]

In Turkey it sells more Ferrari than many richer countries.

[Melbourne Park]

New Ferrari buyers are a rare breed. I do not know the demographics, they would make interesting reading. The cars suffer high depreciation over the first few years, and then their depreciation is quite reasonable, although their running costs are high per kilometre/mile. Aventually they seem to bottom in price and become just model and condition dependant. So the new car buyers are prepared to suffer very high depreciation over a few years, to have a car that with the acception possably of the front engined cars, is really a car for one to two days a week.

Whether these cars are bought by the silly rich, or by clever business tycoons, I don't know. If its the latter, they would probably appreciate Ferrari's business logic in exploiting the rules. The rule is such, that they must be exploited by Ferrari; several times this has been shown by teams when running cars in close proximity, year after year. Only the naive have thought that teams do not mostly call the wheel to wheel shots.

If one examines what Stirling says, its true:

• The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle
What does he mean by this? Maybe one should buy the classic Ferraris, like the ones he owns? The Ferraris on and off the race track look good to me though...

• and Formula 1 is no longer a sport.
True, its a business. Has been for a long time though, but the dollars and people have grown, there isn't much room for innovation or slackness nowdays. Its a tougher business than it was ten years ago, and more so than than 50 years ago. But then, the drivers don't get killed much now. I would have thought killing people on the track is a stronger criticisism of a sport, than Stirling's comments about F1 not being a sport anymore.

• If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why
I'm glad I'm not in F1 today.
Not to mention all the other things: the drinks, the women, the fame, the partying, all the things Stirling loved that he can no longer do ...

• I cannot think of anything more harmful to the
image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of
Ferrari's PR could be incalculable.
We'll have to make that judgement later. So Ferrari play hard ball. There's other proffessional sporting teams that do the same, that are are admired for their give no quarter attitude.

• I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael,
who clearly did not want any part of it".
I don't feel sorry for them. They know about it, and there the rules. They get paid a lot to be in what is currently the best team. Feel sorry? I reckon Stirling would jump at $5million a year, no questions asked, let alone MS's renumeration.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Stirling Moss is an idiot who likes to hear his own voice. This is a guy who claimed that he'd driven a modern F1 car and that "you cant steer them on throttle anymore"

o......k

[schuy]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
New Ferrari buyers are a rare breed. I do not know the demographics, they would make interesting reading. The cars suffer high depreciation over the first few years, and then their depreciation is quite reasonable, although their running costs are high per kilometre/mile. Aventually they seem to bottom in price and become just model and condition dependant. So the new car buyers are prepared to suffer very high depreciation over a few years, to have a car that with the acception possably of the front engined cars, is really a car for one to two days a week.

Not all Ferrari's suffer high depreciation during the first years, you do know that don't you?

Look at the 360 Modena.
You are actually able to find 1year-old 360 Modenas with premiums.
You can find, 3 years-old 360 Modenas with almost similar prices to when they were new.
Let's talk 360 Spider.
This car, even if we are talking about the early models, still sells in very high premiums.

Last year, I watched some article somewhere, talking about depreciation of cars, and the Ferrari 360 Modena clearly came on top as the only car you actually wouldn't lose money buying it!
Of-course, we won't bring up the 550 Maranello or the 456M GT/A. :

But you made some good points regarding what Stirling said.

Liran Biderman.

[schuy]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Stirling Moss is an idiot who likes to hear his own voice. This is a guy who claimed that he'd driven a modern F1 car and that "you cant steer them on throttle anymore"

o......k

I assure you the torque slip angle on modern F1 cars is remarkably different to that of Stirling's days.

[silver fan]

Just the ramblings of yet another ex-GP driver envious of the heights F1 has climbed to since his time in the sport, can't wait for Jackie Stewarts view on the incident.

[Vrba]

We all know that Moss had a year (1955) in what he played Barrichello's role to Fangio.
So he is not competent to speak.

There are two possibilities:
1) he was contracted to be behind Fangio as Rubens is to be behind Schumi
2) he wasn't quick enough to be in front of Fangio

In both cases I see no credibility going his way.

Hrvoje

[QdfV]

Sir Stirling Moss lost his memory?

[bira]

Well.... Sir Stirling is being a bit of a hypocrite here....

Compare his declaration "If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today."

With the following comment he made in 1998:

''If my car broke, I'd go into the pits and I'd say to the team manager 'I'd like to take over another car,' and he'd bring the car in,'' he said. ''The same way as when I was with Fangio, and he was number one, if it was worked out that he should win, then he would win.''

Source

Not very consistent of our dear chap

[QdfV]

He, you found the same article?

[schuy]

Originally posted by bira
Well.... Sir Stirling is being a bit of a hypocrite here....

Compare his declaration "If they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It is an endorsement of why I'm glad I'm not in F1 today."

With the following comment he made in 1998:



Source

Not very consistent of our dear chap

Hehe.
Is that from the book with Robert Edwards?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by schuy


I assure you the torque slip angle on modern F1 cars is remarkably different to that of Stirling's days.

The limit is the limit, whether the tires require 5 degrees of slip angle or 15. In some ways aerodynamics make it more difficult than the car he was driving.

[Sir George Head]

Does this mean that Fangio ruined the sport?

[magic]

sir jackie:

JYS: MS should have ignored orders

Legendary driver Sir Jackie Stewart believes Michael Schumacher should have refused to be a part of Ferrari’s team orders during the intensely controversial Austrian Grand Prix last weekend.

Leader Rubens Barrichello was told on the radio to slow at the exit of the final turn to let Schumacher through to take victory. Schumacher was then told to pass the Brazilian, but Stewart, the former triple World Champion, told BBC Radio Five Live that the German should have ignored the transmission.

‘Michael could easily have disregarded the instruction,’ said the Scotsman.

‘He has more power in Ferrari than any single man I have ever known in all of my career in motorsport as a watcher of Ferrari.

‘It could have been altered by Michael's personal initiative; he could have said it on the radio.’

Stewart said the team order display was an embarrassment to the sport.

‘Rubens was pushed into a position he did not want to be in,’ he said. ‘The manner in which it was all conducted was very embarrassing.

‘It didn't look good for motor racing. Rubens drove an impressive race and it was a PR blunder more than anything else.’

Ferrari, Schumacher and Barrichello have been called to appear before the World Council on June 26 in Paris. Representatives on the Council will be demanding an explanation from the team about the team orders, and will be asking the drivers about the incident on the podium after the race when Schumacher gave Barrichello the winner’s trophy and ushered him onto the top step of the podium. That is a punishable offence.
dailyf1.com

[HSJ]

Moss

I'm not sure about Moss's personal career history, but currently/lately at least I've found him to be a man of integrity.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Stirling Moss is an idiot who likes to hear his own voice. This is a guy who claimed that he'd driven a modern F1 car and that "you cant steer them on throttle anymore"

o......k

I think you're describing yourself with that i-word.

[Sir George Head]

HSJ, I dont unterstand you.

You have no F1 experience before 1999 and your boy Hakkinen was gifted not one but TWO wins by teamorders.

But that a COMPLETLY different story right? The point is, Hakkinen is finish, so he must be one of the best ever, like this Raikkonen dude who you discripe as the best ever.

[Ross Stonefeld]

HSJ so far we've demonstrated what Moss has said to be factually inaccurate. He doesnt deserve extra protection from talking out of his ass just because he's a 'hero'

[Maranello Man]

Originally posted by vroom-vroom
Not really. Ferrari's reputation has lately become that of a pimp-car manufacturer anyway. I find their on- and off-track behavior quite fitting.

It is to be noted that all the hoopla about the last lap incident is quite unwarranted, IMO. The race results were decided way before the race even started, according to Ross Brawn himself. Thus, I have to conclude that neither Ferrari driver actually "raced", both knowing full well what the results would be.

Accordingly, I believe Barrichello's drive was quite flattered by the way MS "raced". Funnily enough, RB's the one who benefitted the most from this fiatsco, IMO again.

I bet you would be a pimp if you could!

[Maranello Man]

Originally posted by pole sitter
Williams, Smooth:

I did not mean to offend all Ferrari owners. I was talking about buyers of new Ferraris.

You need to get off the DRUGS dude......

[pRy]

Moss has a short memory. He spoke after the 98 Australian GP of giving his car up for Fangio because Fangio was the number 1 driver.

I quote Moss :

''This was just an agreement between two drivers who were driving a car that was obviously likely to win the race, and therefore they didn't want to push it harder than they should,'' he said. ''What was remarkable was that David Coulthard - amazing in modern racing - was gentleman enough to stick to the deal. My feeling is that if there were more gentlemen around people wouldn't be so surprised.''

''If my car broke, I'd go into the pits and I'd say to the team manager 'I'd like to take over another car,' and he'd bring the car in,'' he said. ''The same way as when I was with Fangio, and he was number one, if it was worked out that he should win, then he would win.''

How people suddenly change, just to get some good press, and remind themselves that they still "mean something" to the sport they left years ago.

[Maranello Man]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
HSJ so far we've demonstrated what Moss has said to be factually inaccurate. He doesnt deserve extra protection from talking out of his ass just because he's a 'hero'

Besides he NEVER had a seat as a FACTORY FERRARI Grand Prix pilot...He hated Enzo....NEVER WDC...but a hell of a racer otherwise.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by HSJ
I'm not sure about Moss's personal career history, but currently/lately at least I've found him to be a man of integrity.

classic HSJ!

[lumepo03]

Ross Stonefield. I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, but when you can drive a F1 car competitively then we may be open to discussion on any subject concerning F1 racing or any other type of racing.

Confucius says "Man in glass house throws no stones".

[Melbourne Park]

schuy interesting about the high retained values of Ferraris ... I presume in the States. Over here, I have not followed them for a number of years. However I suspect our market is quite different. Small countries, with left hand drive, might effect values somewhat. I still think that the idea of a premium does not make much sense to me, except if the car was not driven, and was more noteworthy than later models. Like a 250GT etc etc. Seems to me the best buys are at the right time, like a Dino when over here, they could be bought for $US6,000. They cost more now ...

As another comment, the thing that gets me about the comment, is how there is a reference to Ferrari being a tainted vehicle. I think in Stirlings day, 10% per year of drivers died in car racing accidents. I call that a taint, yet the Ferrari mark, most famous for its engines rather than brilliant chassis, has been successfull.

the comments are really quite silly, which is a bit of a shame, as I think the old loud much is good fun, if getting out of touch nowdays.

A touch sad really, for Stirling that is, he was charismatic, and follows the GPs (he comes to the Melbourne one quite a bit and talks to the public and signs autographs for the kids). If he was not a great champion, he was cirtainly a glorious failure.

[Mickey]

Originally posted by Maranello Man
Besides he NEVER had a seat as a FACTORY FERRARI Grand Prix pilot...He hated Enzo....

Bit OT, but are you sure about this hate towards Enzo? I've never heard about it (besides Moss preferring to drive for British teams), and AFAIK Enzo used to hold him in such high esteem as Nuvolari and Villeneuve, and would have loved to have him drive the red cars...

[Vrba]

Originally posted by Mickey

Bit OT, but are you sure about this hate towards Enzo? I've never heard about it (besides Moss preferring to drive for British teams), and AFAIK Enzo used to hold him in such high esteem as Nuvolari and Villeneuve, and would have loved to have him drive the red cars...

As his career shows, Moss only preferred British cars when they were class of the field.

Hrvoje

[Indian Chief]

The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula 1 is no longer a sport. If
they had instructed me to do the same I would have told them to stuff it. It
is an endorsement of why

I'm glad I'm not in F1 today. I cannot think of anything more harmful to the
image of the sport or Ferrari. The magnitude of the disaster in terms of
Ferrari's PR could be incalculable. I feel sorry for Rubens and for Michael,
who clearly did not want any part of it

I said in another thread


"This crap from the same man who calmly accepted a win in the 1955 British Grand Prix when his teammate Fangio moved over on the last lap!

He won't give up wins, but he would certainly take the wins if his teammates gave them!"

[umapathypon]

Originally posted by Indian Chief


I said in another thread


"This crap from the same man who calmly accepted a win in the 1955 British Grand Prix when his teammate Fangio moved over on the last lap!

He won't give up wins, but he would certainly take the wins if his teammates gave them!"

[schuy]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
schuy interesting about the high retained values of Ferraris ... I presume in the States. Over here, I have not followed them for a number of years. However I suspect our market is quite different. Small countries, with left hand drive, might effect values somewhat. I still think that the idea of a premium does not make much sense to me, except if the car was not driven, and was more noteworthy than later models. Like a 250GT etc etc. Seems to me the best buys are at the right time, like a Dino when over here, they could be bought for $US6,000. They cost more now ...

Hey Melbourne Park,

First of all, I am not an expert, I should heed that at first.
I understand the American market, I think it's immensely predictable, but my greatest interest and time lies in the UK market.
In the UK there are no rubbish.
You need to have a proper car, and they all are as those which are not in good shape will not reach the reputable dealers, plus the car must have full service history as again, no reputable dealer will except anything else.
You mentioned the thing about the RHD and LHD deal, well, regarding the F355, it is commonly believed in the UK that a Ferrari F355 on LHD can lose up to 10,000 pounds off of it's value!

The thing about premiums.
When we are talking about new cars, it's bceause people don't want the long wait, which they will get if they buy a car on a new order.
A 360 Modena's waiting list lies at around 10 months, whilst the spider's is much longer.
The first used 360 Spider in the UK was allegedly sold with a premium of 40,000 pounds.
That's a lot of money.
Regarding older cars, cars in the 1960's especially bear great importance, and their value is incredibly high, and in the 1950's many cars actually had racing experience in races such as the Mille Miglia and the Targa Florio, so that raises the values of the models, and the racer in specific of-course.

Do you like the Dino then?
(Maybe we should continue this on PM, though, so we won't put everyone to sleep)

Liran Biderman.

[schuy]

Originally posted by Mickey

Bit OT, but are you sure about this hate towards Enzo? I've never heard about it (besides Moss preferring to drive for British teams), and AFAIK Enzo used to hold him in such high esteem as Nuvolari and Villeneuve, and would have loved to have him drive the red cars...

Enzo wouldn't have him as a factory driver.
He once invited him, if I remember correctly, and it turned out Moss was brought there as truly a second fiddle man or something like that, which he did not accept.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by lumepo03
Ross Stonefield. I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing with you, but when you can drive a F1 car competitively then we may be open to discussion on any subject concerning F1 racing or any other type of racing.

Confucius says "Man in glass house throws no stones".

I think its plain to anyone that follows the sport that a rear engine race car with 850hp can be steered on throttle.

Incidentally the cars I drive probably have more in common with modern GP machinery than anything Stirling drove.

[Liam]

Wouldn't a 1950's gp car have had a lot more power than grip, rather like a '66,'67'68 car with no wings.
I'd imagine that at racing speeds, the car would slide around the corner rather than take the smooth arc of a car with more grip, a bit like how a rally car on gravel powerslides, being turned on the throtle as Striling remembers, whereas the same car on dry tarmac most definetly does not powerslide around, and is not turned on the throttle, rather like a modern F1 car.

I know the example is pushing it a bit, but you should get the idea. Remember, before the 70's they didn't have slicks, the tyres had a thread pattern, and were a lot thinner.

It's not to say you can't powerslide an F1 car, just that you wouldn't do it as normal practise, as you don't need to, whereas in one of Sterlings cars, you'd turn in with the wheel, but any line adjusting would be done thereafter by the throttle.

Then again, I have absolutly no experience of this, and am probably talking rubbish.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Its somewhat semantics, but the limit is the limit. If I were fired up id strongly argue that preventing a car from sliding is more difficult than holding a slide.

[lumepojo]

Ross Stonefield, I am but a simple person, would you be so kind as to demonstrate what you speak of. Please show me, with your road car how to lap a circuit faster then Moss would have in his 1950 racecar. I would be happy to write a cheque for $10,000 US. if you could. I will even contact some of the modern F1 principals as you pull of this amazing feat. I am not joking, you have a job with me if you can, just let me know when. I want to see you steer your car on throttle alone.

[bira]

lumepojo / lumepo03 - please decide which userid you prefer to use and stick to it. I don't understand why there are two of you here

[Ross Stonefeld]

any rear wheel drive vehicle can be made to power slide. Its just a case of getting the tires to their limit in the corner and giving it a *little* more power. Its hard to see to the untrained eye, but the modern F1 car is sliding quite a bit. Its not as much in the past for the main reason that its not the fastest way anymore, you're just scrubbing off speed; but also because its too hard on the tires.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by schuy


The thing about premiums.
When we are talking about new cars, it's bceause people don't want the long wait, which they will get if they buy a car on a new order.
A 360 Modena's waiting list lies at around 10 months, whilst the spider's is much longer.
The first used 360 Spider in the UK was allegedly sold with a premium of 40,000 pounds.
That's a lot of money.
Regarding older cars, cars in the 1960's especially bear great importance, and their value is incredibly high, and in the 1950's many cars actually had racing experience in races such as the Mille Miglia and the Targa Florio, so that raises the values of the models, and the racer in specific of-course.

Do you like the Dino then?
(Maybe we should continue this on PM, though, so we won't put everyone to sleep)

Liran Biderman.

OK I understand the premium thing. Which means that people pre order cars, in order to sell them at a profit. That happens here too. In fact, there is no tax payable on a capital gain in Australia from a car bought and sold, as long as one doesn't do it as a car dealer. So some cars are bought and sold by private people to make a dollar, for instance the first batch of limited edition Subaru WRX 3 door "STI" models were sold privately at a premium price. However those cars have lost a lot of money, as their inflated price soon dropped as a four door STI was introduced and further STIs were promised.

The same things sort of happens in Australia with in demand expensive cars. For instance Australians buy more 4WDs than all but the Arabs, they are in demand. The Mercedes diesel 4WD is therefore in demand, as its common rail engine offers good performance, distance range and fuel economy. What MB do is make on wait many months, like 10 months, for one. But one can buy one second hand, a "factory car", with from 70km to 2000 km on the clock, and it will cost more than a new one. But MB have taken a special tax buy on it as a fleet or demo car, and have also had a tax write off. Another example over in Australia is that BMWs and Mercedes which the factories pre order always have metallic paint and sun roofs. Metallic paint on a 3 series over here costs $US950. With a Japanese car, metallic paint is a no cost option. The Mercedes C class sedan's sun roof cost $US1800. The C class is in demand, so the factory orders cars with way overpriced options that one can get quickly, or wait 10 months for a car without the overpriced options. They are always working to try and make some margin ...

Do I like the Dino? Forget the performance, but yes, I think its probably Pinin Farina's best job on a car. It cost new around the same price as a 911, but it looked unbelievable back then. And it still looks great.

[Bernd]

Ross a Kart has more in common with a modern Formula 1 car than one of Stirlings machines. Are you saying that the thousands of kids who Kart have a better understanding of vehicle dynamics than Sir Stirling Moss? A man that has raced and won in pretty much every type of machinery there is, including the vehicles that eventually became modern Go-Karts.