88 replies to this topic

[Pyry L]

I´ve done a bit of digging and I haven´t managed to find out exactly what corner it was where Donohue went off the circuit during practise for the 1975 Austrian GP, so I thought this would be the right place to ask. I need to know this detail because the question was raised in a discussion about the Osring/A1-ring on another forum.

[Vitesse2]

Hella-Licht, the first corner on the old Oesterreichring.

[Keir]

That's the place. Mark was struck in the head by one of the posts that held the "catch-fencing." Just another bad idea, Armco, catch-fencing, hay bales! Everyone else gets to "live and learn." Only racedrivers get to "Die to learn!"

[fines]

I don't think that catch fencing (and Armco et al) was such a bad idea. Ok, it killed some (Donohue, Bürger come to mind), but it prevented cars from hitting trees and other solid objects, and (whisper it quietly) spectators. There's a learning process in everything. If you knew better, why didn't you stand up and speak?

[ehagar]

Originally posted by fines
If you knew better, why didn't you stand up and speak?

If you speak up, and no one hears you, did you make a sound?

In many cases, the organizers didn't listen!

Jackie Stewart (from a David Tremayne article):

'We had a correspondence with the organizers (of Brands Hatch GP) early in the year, but there response could only be described as childish. We thought that a wooded area was potentially dangerous, and asked for a fence to be erected. It wasn't just something we were thinking of ourselves, but any driver in any race on what was a very busy circuit....

The RAC told us they didn't think that this was necessary because they were only 'small' trees. Any larger ones could be protected by straw bales. Well, we'd seen what straw bales did for poor Bandini at Monaco....

When we pressed the RAC harder we were told that if we wanted a fence, then we could have one if we paid for it!'

At other times he was advised that if he wanted to have trees removed, the drivers could do it themselves....

A different world...

[David M. Kane]

Fines, I respectfully disagree on the armco issue. The following drivers
were decapitated by armco before the authorities got the message:

-Bert Hawthorne (F2)
-Jerry Birrell (F2)
-Francois Cevert (Watkins Glen, F1)
-Helmut Koenigg (Watkins Glen, F1)

Hawthorne, Birrell and Koenigg went UNDER the armco. Cevert landed on top
and slide down the armco.

All four were graded drivers, the message should have been clear after
the Hawthorne and Birrell incidents which I believe happened in the same
season.

Since the cost was not nearly as high, the catch fencing idea was corrected
a lot quicker than the Armco. You need to drive through the tunnel of armco
leading onto the front straight of Watkins Glen at speed to get the full
feeling of what C-A-R-E-F-U-L means.

[stevew]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Hella-Licht, the first corner on the old Oesterreichring.

Yes. At the time it was a very fast right-hander just after cresting the hill at the end of the start/finish straight.

After Donohue's accident, a chicane was put there...

[Barry Boor]

Purely from memory, I think that Mark Donohue's head injuries were actually not from a catch-fencing pole but rather, from a scaffold-type pole holding up an advertising hoarding, through which the March crashed.

Of course, I'm probably wrong.......

[cabianca]

If we think ARMCO was bad for racing drivers, think what it was like for racing motorcyclists.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by cabianca
If we think ARMCO was bad for racing drivers, think what it was like for racing motorcyclists.

jarno sarinnen at monza. or was that against a wall?

[Redliner]

Cevert landed on top

Morbid though it is I always understood that Cevert too "Submarined" the armco, my father was present in the pits that day and from his memoirs that is the impression I always got, he uses the term "through" the armco. Though, perhaps understandably he does not go into a great amount of detail. He was there to greet the wreckage as it came back to the pits, a sobering and horrific experience by all accounts.

How exactly did poor Francois land "on" the armco? I have also heard roumers that he had thrown up into his helmet before the accident, does anyone know if there are any truth to these? Indeed does anyone know a probable cause? I understand that no visual evidence, photos, footage, etc. exists of the accident or wreck.

An regard to poor Donohue's accident my fathers journal states that it was an impact with a catch fencing post that killed Mark a few days later. He witnessed it first hand as he stood on the inside of Hella-Licht.

[jmp85]

about catch-fencing poles;

some have theorised that gilles villeneuve's fatal accident might not have been fatal had his skull not come in harsh contact with such a plastic pole.

...

for all these deaths.

cheers, jmp85

[stevew]

Originally posted by Redliner


Morbid though it is I always understood that Cevert too "Submarined" the armco, my father was present in the pits that day and from his memoirs that is the impression I always got, he uses the term "through" the armco. Though, perhaps understandably he does not go into a great amount of detail. He was there to greet the wreckage as it came back to the pits, a sobering and horrific experience by all accounts.

How exactly did poor Francois land "on" the armco? I have also heard roumers that he had thrown up into his helmet before the accident, does anyone know if there are any truth to these? Indeed does anyone know a probable cause? I understand that no visual evidence, photos, footage, etc. exists of the accident or wreck.

An regard to poor Donohue's accident my fathers journal states that it was an impact with a catch fencing post that killed Mark a few days later. He witnessed it first hand as he stood on the inside of Hella-Licht.

I have a couple of photos of the Cevert crash I scanned from the Indianapolis Star dated October 7, 1973. While grainy, one photo shows the car "on top", upside down of some armco and the other, well, it's quite graphic even for the grainy newsprint of the time...

I'll e-mail those photos to you if you wish.

stevew@iei.net

[Redliner]

Thankyou Stevew

That would be very interesting, how on earth did the poor lad end up at that kind of angle? An appalling waste of an excellent talent. I wonder if those stories about him and the clairvoyant are true. . .

Sabre009@hotmail.com Stevew

Thanks

[Buford]

Cevert hit the left side barrier, careened to the right side and then back to the left side. The car turned over and slid along the top in the cockpit area. There was a link to a photo on a thread here awhile back.

Villeneuve was thrown out of the car (because the front was gone) and his body flew through the air and landed on the track and tumbled through the dirt. I doubt a catch fence pole had anything to do with it after his body had been slammed to the ground at a high rate of speed from many feet in the air.

[FEV]

Originally posted by MPea3


jarno sarinnen at monza. or was that against a wall?

I think the problem was that promoters tended to puts loads of strawballs outisde the turns to protect riders from the devastating effects of Armco. This resulted in this horrible accident with in the first lap a rider losing it in the Curva Grande, bouncing against the balls and coming back, along with strawballs, in the middle of the pack - chaos. A lot of riders fell, Saarinen, the too-forgotten Renzo Pasolini and a third driver whose names escapes me were killed and several others injured. Incredibly, strawballs were still used as long as 1990, with a similar accident occuring at the 125cc race of one of the last Yugoslavian GPs at Rijeka (1991 IIRC). Nobody killed that day but bad injuries again.

[Redliner]

Well those Cevert pictures are very grim. Thank god they are so indistinct, the only thing I can identify is a buckled steering wheel. Fortunately I think.

[Redliner]

Christ I've just worked it out. That is utterly horrific, poor poor Francois, still he couldn't have felt it.

[fines]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Fines, I respectfully disagree on the armco issue. (snip)

No argument there! The only thing I'm critisizing is this "hindsight" thing. Without Armco, how many spectators would've died in the seventies? Please, don't try to answer...

One small correction: The "Hella Licht S" was installed in 1977, two years after the Donohue accident.

[FEV]

Originally posted by fines


One small correction: The "Hella Licht S" was installed in 1977, two years after the Donohue accident.

But it was already slightly modified in 1976, transforming (according to Jabby Crombac) from an "tricky almost flat out kink" to an "easy flat out".

[fines]

That's true.

[fines]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Purely from memory, I think that Mark Donohue's head injuries were actually not from a catch-fencing pole but rather, from a scaffold-type pole holding up an advertising hoarding, through which the March crashed.

Of course, I'm probably wrong.......

And Barry's possibly right here, too. Donohue definitely mowed down an advertising hoarding, but as to which pole did which damage... who cares?

[LittleChris]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

All four were graded drivers, the message should have been clear after
the Hawthorne and Birrell incidents which I believe happened in the same
season.

David,

IIRC Hawthorne was killed in the Tui at Hockenheim in 1972 , whilst Gerry Birrell was killed at Rouen the following year. There is a picture of the remains of his Chevron as well as the aftermath of Denis Dayans accident in 1970 in the book ' Rouen Les Essarts 1950 - 93 ' by Roger Biot. Neither is a pleasant sight.

Chris

[ehagar]

Originally posted by MPea3


jarno sarinnen at monza. or was that against a wall?

Jarno Sarinnen. The man who beat the golden boy Ago on self prepared equipment. Daytona 200 winner.

May 20th, 1973 he had a fatal accident at Monza, which wasn't his fault. Renzo Pasolini slid off on a corner where some oil from a previous race was deposited.

I've read that the barrier was a 'steel barrier', so I assume armco, but FEV is probably more correct...

Regardless, Renzo's bike was catapulted back onto the track and into Jarno's path. Both riders died. 12 other riders suffered other injuries from the accident.

[Mila]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Purely from memory, I think that Mark Donohue's head injuries were actually not from a catch-fencing pole but rather, from a scaffold-type pole holding up an advertising hoarding, through which the March crashed.

that would be curious seeing that, at the 86 Austrian GP, Johansson spun into an advertising sign, a support pole of which broke through the monocoque of his Ferrari. the Swede suffered a back injury, but was well enough to race on Sunday.

to my knowledge, the last clash between an F1 driver and a catch-fence pole was Mansell at Paul Ricard in 85. the result was a concussion for Mansell; he could have easily been knocked out for good. I wonder if this incident was the nail-in-the-coffin for catch fences?

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Mila


that would be curious seeing that, at the 86 Austrian GP, Johansson spun into an advertising sign, a support pole of which broke through the monocoque of his Ferrari. the Swede suffered a back injury, but was well enough to race on Sunday.

to my knowledge, the last clash between an F1 driver and a catch-fence pole was Mansell at Paul Ricard in 85. the result was a concussion for Mansell; he could have easily been knocked out for good. I wonder if this incident was the nail-in-the-coffin for catch fences?

Johansson's crash was caused by a deer in the middle of the track though. The deer disintegrated at high speed and he crashed heavily. As far as I know, he didn't race on sunday.

Is there a pic or anything on donohue's crash, if there is any?

[Pyry L]

First, thanks for the replies...I had it stuck in my head that Donohue crashed at boschkurve for some reason.

Slyder, I think I have a pic somewhere on my hdd (I´ll see if I can find it on the net somewhere) of Donohues car that was taken after the crash, haven´t seen any pictures or footage of the crash itself though.

As for Saarinen, IIRC he died of the injuries he suffered when he was run over by atleast one bike.

[dmj]

Originally posted by FEV
I think the problem was that promoters tended to puts loads of strawballs outisde the turns to protect riders from the devastating effects of Armco. This resulted in this horrible accident with in the first lap a rider losing it in the Curva Grande, bouncing against the balls and coming back, along with strawballs, in the middle of the pack - chaos. A lot of riders fell, Saarinen, the too-forgotten Renzo Pasolini and a third driver whose names escapes me were killed and several others injured. Incredibly, strawballs were still used as long as 1990, with a similar accident occuring at the 125cc race of one of the last Yugoslavian GPs at Rijeka (1991 IIRC). Nobody killed that day but bad injuries again.

In just few months (in 1990, if I recall correctly) there were two similar incidents including strawbales in Grobnik circuit. One you mentioned and one in European championship race, also in 125cc class. Sadly, that one claimed life of a young Italian, Eros Manfredini... These two accidents effectively finished use of Grobnik circuit for high-level international racing.

[LittleChris]

Slyder,

Stefan was involved in incidents in successive years at the Osterreichring.

1986 driving the Ferrari, he went off after the Hella Licht chicane onto the inside of the circuit and hit the pole for the hoarding which punched up through the monocoque injuring his back. He raced loaded up with painkillers and IIRC finished in the points.

1987 in the McLaren was the year he hit the unfortunate deer whilst going through the ( then ) very fast right handed kink prior to the Jochen Rindt Kurve. In the race he was involved in the accidents leading to the multiple restarts.





On a seperate issue, there used to be pictures of the Saarinen / Pasolini accident on Emilio Boldi's Monza Site, but I can't find them on his newly released version. However if you use Google Image Search and type in

Saarinen +pasolini +monza

this will bring up the thumbnails .

Chris

[jrosenzweig]

Ricardo Rodriguez submarined at Mexico. It would make logical sense for armco to go from the ground up with no gaps, but i guess i wasn't the accountant doing the sums to calculate how much extra steel was required to fill this gap...

Skipping ahead a few years to the present day, why doesn't the FIA have the tyre barriers away some metres from the walls? As a car hits the tyres the momentum deceleration is slower, and the impact of the crash takes longer... that has always amazed me.

[fines]

Originally posted by dmj
In just few months (in 1990, if I recall correctly) there were two similar incidents including strawbales in Grobnik circuit. One you mentioned and one in European championship race, also in 125cc class. Sadly, that one claimed life of a young Italian, Eros Manfredini... These two accidents effectively finished use of Grobnik circuit for high-level international racing.

Eros Manferdini, May 27 in 1990. Three weeks later Reinhold Roth crashed into the back of a slow amateur racer (Randy Milner?), no straw bales involved here, but bad marshalling and a stupid race director. Roth is still alive, but in a waking coma ever since... :cry:n Thank goodness, that was the end of Rijeka as an International racing venue!!!

[deangelis86]

Originally posted by Mila


that would be curious seeing that, at the 86 Austrian GP, Johansson spun into an advertising sign, a support pole of which broke through the monocoque of his Ferrari. the Swede suffered a back injury, but was well enough to race on Sunday.

to my knowledge, the last clash between an F1 driver and a catch-fence pole was Mansell at Paul Ricard in 85. the result was a concussion for Mansell; he could have easily been knocked out for good. I wonder if this incident was the nail-in-the-coffin for catch fences?

Mansell's concussion was caused by his front tyre hitting him on the helmet. By 1985 Catch fencing poles had largely been done away with.

[dmj]

Originally posted by fines

Eros Manferdini, May 27 in 1990. Three weeks later Reinhold Roth crashed into the back of a slow amateur racer (Randy Milner?), no straw bales involved here, but bad marshalling and a stupid race director. Roth is still alive, but in a waking coma ever since... :cry:n Thank goodness, that was the end of Rijeka as an International racing venue!!!

...but we will make everything we can to assure that circuit will hold some big races in future...

[Rainer Nyberg]

Slyder, not a picture of the accident it self, but here is one of the wreck beeing craned away...

[FEV]

Originally posted by fines

Eros Manferdini, May 27 in 1990. Three weeks later Reinhold Roth crashed into the back of a slow amateur racer (Randy Milner?), no straw bales involved here, but bad marshalling and a stupid race director. Roth is still alive, but in a waking coma ever since... :cry:n Thank goodness, that was the end of Rijeka as an International racing venue!!!

Thanks for the update on Roth, Michael. He was one of my favorite riders at the time, and I was rooting for him in those great 250cc years with all those great guys like Jacques Cornu, Loris Reggiani, Masahiro Shimizu, Martin Wimmer, Didier de Radiguès against all the Spanish gang of Sito Pons, Carlos Cardus and Juan Garriga. Great years for FIM Grand Prix ! I never found anything on Reinhold since this sad day and I was thus guessing he was still alive, but I am depply sorry to learn he still is so badly injured This horible accident is one of the worst things I ever saw.

[FEV]

Andy yes, I also think it was OZ privateer Randy Milner who was hit from behind by Roth. He was one of the riders thinking the race was going to be red flagged because of the rain starting to fall. Milner was badly hurt too IIRC.

[Keir]

While not always evident, when speaking of racing, I speak as an ex-racer. Armco and catch-fencing were poor methods of providing safety for racers and spectators alike.

I was involved in an accident at Lime Rock Park in Conn., USA. I went off the track at the fastest part of the track and hit a tire barrier at well over 80 mph. The end result, I was knocked out for about 3 seconds, the front of my car had a minor crack in the bodywork.
I then stuck it in reverse and drove back to the pits!!! Right behing the tire barrier was some old armco, which would have launched me into the afterlife.

Fines, Hindsight is 20/20, but you can still keep your armco and catch-fencing!!!

[dbltop]

I remember reading somewhere that Donahue was up and around telling everybody he was ok,and then collapsed an hour later in the pits. Is this true,and if it is,could something more have been done for him? This is hindsight too, I know, but I was just wondering.

[Buford]

From what I remember he was in the pits and seemed Ok and then started complaining of dizziness and a headache. Apparently a blood clot formed in the brain. Whether today they would have caught it by taking him in for a scan or something I don't know. But if a driver seems alright for an extended period of time, I doubt they would catch such an injury even today.

[Dave Ware]

I seem to recall that it was three days before Mark Donohue died from that bump on the head. He was definately walking around afterwards and carrying on normally...for a while.

I believe, though I'm not sure, that he had a subdural hemotoma (sp?)...exactly the thing that Christian Fittipalid has NOT died from, because these days they know to look for such things.

Straw bales, Armco, gravel traps...I think it's a learning process. And it's the painful incidents (Bandini, Cevert, Koneigg, perhaps Schumacher breaking his leg at Silverstone) that indicate that something better needs to be devised.

Dave

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Pyry L
First, thanks for the replies...I had it stuck in my head that Donohue crashed at boschkurve for some reason.

Slyder, I think I have a pic somewhere on my hdd (I´ll see if I can find it on the net somewhere) of Donohues car that was taken after the crash, haven´t seen any pictures or footage of the crash itself though.

As for Saarinen, IIRC he died of the injuries he suffered when he was run over by atleast one bike.

if it's different than the one posted here, you can send it via e-mail

catrevilla@hotmail.com
crevilla@msn.com

[MaTT2799]

I thought I would just add to this topic to clear up the earlier confusion surrounding the Gilles Villeneuve crash.

The impact of Gilles body with a catch fencing pole had nothing to do with his death. I have a picture of Gilles lying in the catch fencing, and I can confrim from what I see it appears his head and neck did not contact the pole.

What killed Gilles was the impact of his Ferrari nose diving into the sandy run off area to the left. The severe shock sent into his body disconnected his brain stem, and from that moment on Gilles was dead.

A sobering thought, and not a nice one to talk about, but I felt I should clear it up.

As for the Cevert crash... seen the pictures, not nice stuff. Can't really make out the picture of the car afterwards, but if what I think is what it is, then I pray he didnt feel a thing.

[Buford]

I have the Villeneuve crash on video. It was shown hundreds of times in the days and weeks after the accident, on news shows and other races. His body flew through the air and impacted the ground totally seperate from the car which was elsewhere. A fence pole if any had no impact on the fatal injuries. He was either killed from the initial impact or from his body hitting the track as it came down and flopped into the fencing at the end of its path.

[Redliner]

There are pictures of Villenueve lying in the catch fencing?

I always understood that poor Gilles was killed on impact with the ground after he was thrown out. He hit the surface at a great speed and at a bad angle. I remember reading somewhere that he may well have only broken his legs had he fallen differently.

Another cruel blow from fate. How come its always the greats who leave early?

[MaTT2799]

Redliner - there isnt a photo of Giles in the fencing, its part of a video clip I have. It shows the accident, then him in the fence with a marshall gesticulating for help.

As for the angle, indeed. Look at Pironis crash, it was the same bar the angle of landing. Pironi got away with it, unfortunatly Gilles didnt.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by dbltop
I remember reading somewhere that Donahue was up and around telling everybody he was ok,and then collapsed an hour later in the pits. Is this true,and if it is,could something more have been done for him? This is hindsight too, I know, but I was just wondering.

I saw an interview with Emerson Fittipaldi several years ago and he mentioned he and Hans Stuck getting to the accident and helping Donohue out of the car. He appeared shaken, but actually walked back up the hill to the pits, where he complained about not feeling well and then collapsed.

I had never heard that part of the story until then. Grim as it was, it was interesting hearing Emerson talk about it. Obviously, the incident had really stuck with Emmo.

I don't know that it would have made a difference, but clearly with the better safety and medical help, a driver would not be allowed to walk back to the pits under those circumstances.


Jim Thurman

[Slyder]

Originally posted by MaTT2799
Redliner - there isnt a photo of Giles in the fencing, its part of a video clip I have. It shows the accident, then him in the fence with a marshall gesticulating for help.

As for the angle, indeed. Look at Pironis crash, it was the same bar the angle of landing. Pironi got away with it, unfortunatly Gilles didnt.

Pironi didn't exactly got away with. His leg injuries pretty much ended with his career.

[Pyry L]

Slyder, sorry the pic I have is the same as the one Rainer posted.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


I saw an interview with Emerson Fittipaldi several years ago and he mentioned he and Hans Stuck getting to the accident and helping Donohue out of the car. He appeared shaken, but actually walked back up the hill to the pits, where he complained about not feeling well and then collapsed.

Bobby Baird's fatal accident in 1953 was similar to this - he was thrown from his sports Ferrari in a race at Snetterton, picked himself up and headed to the pits. He'd walked about a hundred paces when he dropped dead of a punctured lung.

[MaTT2799]

Originally posted by Slyder


Pironi didn't exactly got away with. His leg injuries pretty much ended with his career.

Yes, Slyder, I see your point, but in light of poor Gilles I think Didier counted himself very lucky. After all the surgery he went through he was walking, and still alive. Compared to Gilles, Didier was lucky.