im currently coming to the end of my second year of my degree in automotive engineering. i should be on an industrial placement next year, but so far have had no such luck. i think one of the reasons is to do with the fact that i do not want to be a design engineer, more a race engineer. at the minute, because of the reduced number of placements available this year for some reason, any offer will be taken but im of the belief that im not gonna get one.
does anyone have any idea what sort of path race engineers have taken? i was thinking about just getting in touch with some race teams if i dont get a placement and just asking if i could shadow them or be taught directly by one of their existing race engineers. do you think any team would take me on in this role?
i have recently designed a suspension system for a formula student car and am the teams race engineeer, so i have a good basic knowledge, being careful with my words here as i know suspension and especially damper theories are not very well understood, even by the top people.
i just dont want to end up designing dashboards or the like (no offence if thats your job!) which seems to be what most placements are these days, i'd much rather be out in the cold!
thanks
Becoming a race engineer
Started by
Kid Prozac
, May 17 2002 17:54
7 replies to this topic
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#2
Jezztor
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- 463 posts
- Joined: July 01
Member
Posted 17 May 2002 - 19:26
Hi KidProzac,
Interesting question. Recently there was a chat with Alastair Gibson on the www.itv-f1.com website (on Wed last). Go check the transcript on the site, he does give some information. I have contacted (or attempted to!) most of the F1 teams regarding apprenticeship and they were not very helpful. The majority of them do not have apprenticeship / training period plans for students, unfortunately. BAR and Arrows DO have, but BAR only take British (don't know if that helps you) and they take them straight out of Uni, they usually approach you. Arrows - quite easy to get hold of, rumble around in their website, and email them.
My advice is to get a job with a local racing team, as professional as possible. It doesn't have to be open-wheel, doesn't really matter what category, but take a look at teh tech regs for each formula, because as an engineer you want to gain prac experience in being creative - so look out for that. Just get as much prac experience as you can. You can also pick your first proper race mechanic job by the marque (ie. for touring cars, or production car series', you can look at joining Toyota or Renault, who have links in F1).
Hope that helped a bit, good luck!
Jezz
Interesting question. Recently there was a chat with Alastair Gibson on the www.itv-f1.com website (on Wed last). Go check the transcript on the site, he does give some information. I have contacted (or attempted to!) most of the F1 teams regarding apprenticeship and they were not very helpful. The majority of them do not have apprenticeship / training period plans for students, unfortunately. BAR and Arrows DO have, but BAR only take British (don't know if that helps you) and they take them straight out of Uni, they usually approach you. Arrows - quite easy to get hold of, rumble around in their website, and email them.
My advice is to get a job with a local racing team, as professional as possible. It doesn't have to be open-wheel, doesn't really matter what category, but take a look at teh tech regs for each formula, because as an engineer you want to gain prac experience in being creative - so look out for that. Just get as much prac experience as you can. You can also pick your first proper race mechanic job by the marque (ie. for touring cars, or production car series', you can look at joining Toyota or Renault, who have links in F1).
Hope that helped a bit, good luck!
Jezz
#3
bergwerk
-
- 869 posts
- Joined: April 01
Member
Posted 18 May 2002 - 16:38
Race yourself if you have the talent, it will draw lasting attention from prospective employers.
If you don't race, go to the races in some capacity and press the flesh as frequently as possible.
Weigh what you say before you say it since everything that you say will follow you forever in the microcosm of racing.
Think in terms of decades and not in years.
Last, be very nice to everybody that you meet on your way up since you will meet them all again on your way down. Guaranteed.
If you don't race, go to the races in some capacity and press the flesh as frequently as possible.
Weigh what you say before you say it since everything that you say will follow you forever in the microcosm of racing.
Think in terms of decades and not in years.
Last, be very nice to everybody that you meet on your way up since you will meet them all again on your way down. Guaranteed.
#4
Rat_Fink
-
- 49 posts
- Joined: October 01
Member
Posted 20 May 2002 - 07:55
I think if you want to be a race engineer then the idea of trying to work your way up is the right one if you cannot get a job with an F1 team straight away.
I think however that you will need to decide upon an area to work with whilst you are trying to reach the top, people who start off as race engineering a FFord and work upwards often don't have the technical knowledge of someone who has worked with vehicle dynamics for example. From my experience I believe that dynamics is the best experience for race engineering, as this involves analysing data to understand the car's response and handling, then trying to improve this through set up changes often using a simulation tool. This is a part of what the engineers do and therefore should stand you in good stead. However the part that is very "non-technical" is the physcological aspect, knowing how to get the best from your driver when they're having an off day - being the motivation. I believe this is something people gain from experience, working they're way up through companies, learning to manage people and situations.
So in a nutshell, try and get a job in F1 in an engineering role, eg. design, aero, dynamics, gearbox etc..... and go from there. If this doesn't happen do the same but in another formula such as F3 or GT cars and get to know lots of people!
Maybe we'll see each other in the pit lane in a few years, my ambition is the same as yours, i'm only a year older but have been lucky enough to land a placement in F1 working closely with some very talented people. The opportunities are out there!
I think however that you will need to decide upon an area to work with whilst you are trying to reach the top, people who start off as race engineering a FFord and work upwards often don't have the technical knowledge of someone who has worked with vehicle dynamics for example. From my experience I believe that dynamics is the best experience for race engineering, as this involves analysing data to understand the car's response and handling, then trying to improve this through set up changes often using a simulation tool. This is a part of what the engineers do and therefore should stand you in good stead. However the part that is very "non-technical" is the physcological aspect, knowing how to get the best from your driver when they're having an off day - being the motivation. I believe this is something people gain from experience, working they're way up through companies, learning to manage people and situations.
So in a nutshell, try and get a job in F1 in an engineering role, eg. design, aero, dynamics, gearbox etc..... and go from there. If this doesn't happen do the same but in another formula such as F3 or GT cars and get to know lots of people!
Maybe we'll see each other in the pit lane in a few years, my ambition is the same as yours, i'm only a year older but have been lucky enough to land a placement in F1 working closely with some very talented people. The opportunities are out there!
#5
Kid Prozac
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- 21 posts
- Joined: January 02
New Member
Posted 21 May 2002 - 11:13
well done on a placement within formula 1, thats quite an achievement. when we all sent letters off, we all got negative replies from every team saying they do not take students on industrial placement years. so how'd you manage that then?! seriously if you could give me any tips on what you said did, key things to highlight in cvs etc, i would be most grateful.
thanks
thanks
#6
naes
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- 23 posts
- Joined: October 00
New Member
Posted 24 May 2002 - 12:29
I have the same ambitions as you regarding becoming a race engineer, and then ultimately a technical director (I hope). I'm readin aeronautical engineering with french at the moment and on top of that take automotive modules and read up as much as possible on my own, so far as funds allow. I decided a long time ago that languages were one of the most important things I could work on, there are plenty of capable people out there but very few who can communicate in more than one or two languages - I speak french to a reasonably high standard and am learing spanish and italian and hope to start german soon.
#7
yancm
-
- 8 posts
- Joined: May 01
New Member
Posted 24 May 2002 - 13:51
At the risk of sounding like a pessimist...let me relate a bit about
the years I wanted to "run away and join the circus". OK, maybe a
different circus (Indy 500/CART - c 1986-1995), but I have to believe
it's relevent. I grew up in Indianapolis. I have attended "The Race" from
the time I was 8. I just knew that someday I'd be out there helping
a race team beat everyone else...it was my destiny!
OK, I'm an engineer too. I investigated the Formula SAE team at
Purdue (where I eventually received BS and MSME studying Design,
Simulation and Optimization). It was readily apparent to me that these
guys were fanatics!
They spent many nights just working on the car until the wee hours
of the morning. They rarely went to class and half were on academic
probation. (I didn't realize it at the time, but these were the first
true Racers I met) I chose to stick with my academics (with some
social time thrown in) rather than go Formula SAE racing...this was
about 1982 btw... When I graduated in 1985 I sent out letters to all the
CART teams trying to find an entry level engineering position...I got a
couple of polite replies, but that was all.
Fast foward to 1994. I had worked in industry a while, but had jumped back
into school to get a PhD. The PhD was going badly. I decided to go to Indy
during the "Month of May" to try and get to "press the flesh" and get
noticed! I even had some pens made up to hand out with my name,
credentials and contact information. I obtained a pit pass, and I was
at the track, in the garage area from 5:30 AM until 6PM every day for
10 straight days.
During that time it was obvious that nobody there wanted to talk with
me. They avoided me deliberately. They could tell why I was there, and
I wasn't the only one. There was one small team that would talk with me,
but they didn't need entry level help. What I took away from that was
how long and hard these guys worked.
OK, so I finished my PhD, and got an 8-5 job. I bought a go-kart!
I finally got to be a race engineer! (I also was the parts washer, mechanic
and driver too...) The cart is a 2 cycle yamaha which produces about
20 bhp at about 14,000 RPM. I campaigned a summer season on
the local dirt oval with the local carting club. I learned to adjust the chassis,
the clutch, the carburator, the tire pressures, the staggers (if you don't
follow oval racing of any kind, don't worry about it...). I got to the point
where I could finish in the top 3 consistantly. Unfortunately, the club
racing has alot of classes so it takes about 10 hours to get in practice,
two qualifying heats and the final race. You know what though, I scratched
that racing itch.
I still have my cart, but have not raced it in a year or so. I decided to
do some remodeling on my home. I have the cart for sale, but I'm not trying
agressively to get rid of it. I have an asphalt (tarmac to some) road
course set up, and some tracks no too far away where I can go
play when I have time. I will finish my remodeling this year, so maybe
I'll go racing again next summer.
So, my advice... If you are a racer, race! Real racers are racing even
if they're not working for top teams. Very few start at the top, just
enough to get young engineers to dreaming about running off and
joining the circus. If you really want to join the big top, race in a local
series that uses some relevent technology. Learn data acquisition, learn
how to set up shocks and suspension. Be warned though, there are
an over abundance of folks who want it so bad they will work long
hour for next to nothing. In the end, I chose to be comfortable.
Sorry if I rambled too long here...
gene
the years I wanted to "run away and join the circus". OK, maybe a
different circus (Indy 500/CART - c 1986-1995), but I have to believe
it's relevent. I grew up in Indianapolis. I have attended "The Race" from
the time I was 8. I just knew that someday I'd be out there helping
a race team beat everyone else...it was my destiny!
OK, I'm an engineer too. I investigated the Formula SAE team at
Purdue (where I eventually received BS and MSME studying Design,
Simulation and Optimization). It was readily apparent to me that these
guys were fanatics!
They spent many nights just working on the car until the wee hours
of the morning. They rarely went to class and half were on academic
probation. (I didn't realize it at the time, but these were the first
true Racers I met) I chose to stick with my academics (with some
social time thrown in) rather than go Formula SAE racing...this was
about 1982 btw... When I graduated in 1985 I sent out letters to all the
CART teams trying to find an entry level engineering position...I got a
couple of polite replies, but that was all.
Fast foward to 1994. I had worked in industry a while, but had jumped back
into school to get a PhD. The PhD was going badly. I decided to go to Indy
during the "Month of May" to try and get to "press the flesh" and get
noticed! I even had some pens made up to hand out with my name,
credentials and contact information. I obtained a pit pass, and I was
at the track, in the garage area from 5:30 AM until 6PM every day for
10 straight days.
During that time it was obvious that nobody there wanted to talk with
me. They avoided me deliberately. They could tell why I was there, and
I wasn't the only one. There was one small team that would talk with me,
but they didn't need entry level help. What I took away from that was
how long and hard these guys worked.
OK, so I finished my PhD, and got an 8-5 job. I bought a go-kart!
I finally got to be a race engineer! (I also was the parts washer, mechanic
and driver too...) The cart is a 2 cycle yamaha which produces about
20 bhp at about 14,000 RPM. I campaigned a summer season on
the local dirt oval with the local carting club. I learned to adjust the chassis,
the clutch, the carburator, the tire pressures, the staggers (if you don't
follow oval racing of any kind, don't worry about it...). I got to the point
where I could finish in the top 3 consistantly. Unfortunately, the club
racing has alot of classes so it takes about 10 hours to get in practice,
two qualifying heats and the final race. You know what though, I scratched
that racing itch.
I still have my cart, but have not raced it in a year or so. I decided to
do some remodeling on my home. I have the cart for sale, but I'm not trying
agressively to get rid of it. I have an asphalt (tarmac to some) road
course set up, and some tracks no too far away where I can go
play when I have time. I will finish my remodeling this year, so maybe
I'll go racing again next summer.
So, my advice... If you are a racer, race! Real racers are racing even
if they're not working for top teams. Very few start at the top, just
enough to get young engineers to dreaming about running off and
joining the circus. If you really want to join the big top, race in a local
series that uses some relevent technology. Learn data acquisition, learn
how to set up shocks and suspension. Be warned though, there are
an over abundance of folks who want it so bad they will work long
hour for next to nothing. In the end, I chose to be comfortable.
Sorry if I rambled too long here...
gene
#8
RDV
-
- 6,765 posts
- Joined: March 02
Member
Posted 28 May 2002 - 12:16
... If you are a racer, race! Real racers are racing even
if they're not working for top teams. Very few start at the top, just
enough to get young engineers to dreaming about running off and
joining the circus. If you really want to join the big top, race in a local
series that uses some relevent technology. Learn data acquisition, learn
how to set up shocks and suspension. Be warned though, there are
an over abundance of folks who want it so bad they will work long
hour for next to nothing.
....secondly, and most important, you are probably kissing away a real life if you take that route, you will end up spending most of your time trying to figure out a way to beat the opposition, and that is a zero sum game , as winning ends up taking all the free time you have for your private life.
There is no glamour in top level motor racing , the most you will get out of it is personal satisfaction.... but if you are a racer this advice will be wasted anyway, so stop thinking of doing it and go out and do it in any racing availiable to you.... I dont know where you are based but being in the UK helps , and having racing experience helps also, but rememberthis is not a short term project....
