63 replies to this topic

[Viktor]

In a BBC program from december of 1995 thay show the data output from both Schumachers and Herberts car in qual going round Bridge corner at Silverstone.



This firt graph show the throttle input

You can se how smoth Schumacher is here while Herbert lifts later but have to lift more to make the corner.
This second graph show the speed

Now we se that Schumacher only stoped the acceleration of the car, the car keep the same speed through the corner from the entery to exit(!) while Herbers has less speed on entery of the corner and then accelerate all the way to corner exit.
The third graph show the steering input from the driver

Here we see a big differense, Schumacher has to do many corrections all through the corner while Herbert has a smoth run through the corner. Schumacher drives on the edge of what the car can take while Herbert stays "well" within the limits of the car.

Herbert lost 0.2 sec through this secion alone!

Very interesting to view this, to bad that the teams dont share this live in the races

/Viktor

[kober]

Thanks for sharing, it's great

[Foxbat]

So the information was shared with the world, but not within the team?;)

Great info though, even though it is rather ironic that in this day and age we have to look at the telemetry to see if a driver is smooth or ragged

[UreaBorealis]

Great post.

I wonder if there's more of this kind of stuff lying around somewhere in the web?

[mikabest]

Those graphs verify what Brundle says (in that often quoted article about MS and MH) about the ability of both MS and MH to take the curves. Read the text and compare it to the graphs. Interesting. Shows what kind of factors make the difference between a good f1 driver and an excellent one.

"It's in the slow turns ­ long second-or third-gear bends in which you spend a lot more time than you do in superfast fifth - or sixth-gear flicks, for example ­that real time can be won. Both drivers have a truly fantastic ability to maintain apex minimum speed in apparently straightforward corners ­ to prevent the appearance of a V-shaped dip in the track-speed line on their telemetry traces, if you like.

With both of them, the apex deceleration is smoothed out ­ it's more of a U than a V ­ and I've rarely seen that. It only works out as a couple of miles per hour, but it's consistently there and it makes a significant cumulative difference.

So how is it achieved? Mika uses the pedals smoothly. He didn't always brake later than I did ­ in fact, I often braked later than Mika and I think David Coulthard does the same today ­ but Mika is very good at synchronising the application and release of throttle and brakes.

Michael is also strong in this area, but he likes to steer the car with the throttle a bit more than Mika does. He's not quite as fluid. The net result is remarkably similar: a higher apex minimum speed, and the ability to set the car up for that apex so that once power is applied, the car is straighter sooner ­ so it's ready to accelerate away from the corner earlier and faster.

Again, it's Mika who is slightly better here. He always seemed able to apply virtually full throttle very early and have less wheelspin than I was having with less throttle. I looked at it very carefully in '94, and I think the key was, is, ­ the couple of degrees of controlled sliding that he introduces to the car on the turn-in. If you're sideways, you're wasting time, but that's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about arriving at a corner, dialling in a smidgen of attitude, and springboarding off that attitude rather than correcting it. Michael achieves something very similar by teasing the back end of the car with the throttle. And I'm talking about graph paper now ­telemetry, computers, science, fact. Black and white. Those two guys can maintain forward motion more of the time than most others can. "

yours,

ever so biased MIKABEST

[RaggedEdge]

Viktor and MIKABEST,

Fantastic stuff. Thanks. I wish we could see more of that, perhaps Bernievision will come to help some day?

[DOHC]

Very interesting. A few comments though:

1) There's no braking, just a lift-off through Bridge. Braking only for Priory.

2) Speed curves: incredible how smooth Schumacher is!

3) Herbert losing 0.2 sec on this section alone: what you see is that Herbert's speed at all times is lower (below) than Schumacher's. That's where the time loss arises, not from lack of smoothness.

4) Schumacher's nonsmooth steering input is surprising, does it really come from "being on the edge?" It's also less smooth on the acceleration up to Bridge. Perhaps he is indeed balancing the car with the steering input, but how do we subtract vibrations? But considering the amplitude of the steering input, it's clear that Schumacher does some "sawing" through the whole passage.

Very interesting nevertheless.

[MuMu]

Wow, excellent stuff, thanks for posting!

I'd really like to see the MS vs MH graphs to compare it to what MB's saying.

I'd also like to see JPM vs RS - should be very interesting.

[Viktor]

Originally posted by DOHC
Very interesting. A few comments though:

1) There's no braking, just a lift-off through Bridge. Braking only for Priory.

Brainfade, ofcorse it it, it's the throttle input

4) Schumacher's nonsmooth steering input is surprising, does it really come from "being on the edge?" It's also less smooth on the acceleration up to Bridge. Perhaps he is indeed balancing the car with the steering input, but how do we subtract vibrations? But considering the amplitude of the steering input, it's clear that Schumacher does some "sawing" through the whole passage.

Very interesting nevertheless.

I only wrote down what J. Palmer sad on the video

/Viktor

[DOHC]

...and I was only guessing from the graphs...

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by mikabest
Those graphs verify what Brundle says (in that often quoted article about MS and MH) about the ability of both MS and MH to take the curves. Read the text and compare it to the graphs. Interesting. Shows what kind of factors make the difference between a good f1 driver and an excellent one.

"It's in the slow turns ­ long second-or third-gear bends in which you spend a lot more time than you do in superfast fifth - or sixth-gear flicks, for example ­that real time can be won. Both drivers have a truly fantastic ability to maintain apex minimum speed in apparently straightforward corners ­ to prevent the appearance of a V-shaped dip in the track-speed line on their telemetry traces, if you like.

With both of them, the apex deceleration is smoothed out ­ it's more of a U than a V ­ and I've rarely seen that. It only works out as a couple of miles per hour, but it's consistently there and it makes a significant cumulative difference.

So how is it achieved? Mika uses the pedals smoothly. He didn't always brake later than I did ­ in fact, I often braked later than Mika and I think David Coulthard does the same today ­ but Mika is very good at synchronising the application and release of throttle and brakes.

Michael is also strong in this area, but he likes to steer the car with the throttle a bit more than Mika does. He's not quite as fluid. The net result is remarkably similar: a higher apex minimum speed, and the ability to set the car up for that apex so that once power is applied, the car is straighter sooner ­ so it's ready to accelerate away from the corner earlier and faster.

Again, it's Mika who is slightly better here. He always seemed able to apply virtually full throttle very early and have less wheelspin than I was having with less throttle. I looked at it very carefully in '94, and I think the key was, is, ­ the couple of degrees of controlled sliding that he introduces to the car on the turn-in. If you're sideways, you're wasting time, but that's not what we're talking about here.

We're talking about arriving at a corner, dialling in a smidgen of attitude, and springboarding off that attitude rather than correcting it. Michael achieves something very similar by teasing the back end of the car with the throttle. And I'm talking about graph paper now ­telemetry, computers, science, fact. Black and white. Those two guys can maintain forward motion more of the time than most others can. "

yours,

ever so biased MIKABEST

This quote is much more to my liking great info especially from someone as astute as Martin Brundle and put that not only with his great judgement but he's one of only 2 drivers to teammate Hakk and Schu. I much prefer this to the silly graphs those could be any old graphs they could be on different set-up's, ratios, engine, tyres, anything...too many variables Brundles view is his perception build on the total amount of time working with both drivers....Superb !

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by mikabest

So how is it achieved? Mika uses the pedals smoothly. He didn't always brake later than I did ­ in fact, I often braked later than Mika and I think David Coulthard does the same today ­ but Mika is very good at synchronising the application and release of throttle and brakes.

Mika was the first F1 driver to introduce left-foot braking, and this synchronisation of the pedal movements seems to be the reason for it.

Originally posted by mikabest
Again, it's Mika who is slightly better here. He always seemed able to apply virtually full throttle very early and have less wheelspin than I was having with less throttle.

With the introduction of traction control, Mika's speed gain of being able to accelerating out of corners with maximal efficiency may have been compromised.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by RaggedEdge

Mika was the first F1 driver to introduce left-foot braking, and this synchronisation of the pedal movements seems to be the reason for it.

Are you serious? Mika introduced left-foot braking to F1?

[mikabest]

Originally posted by DOHC

4) Schumacher's nonsmooth steering input is surprising, does it really come from "being on the edge?" It's also less smooth on the acceleration up to Bridge. Perhaps he is indeed balancing the car with the steering input, but how do we subtract vibrations? But considering the amplitude of the steering input, it's clear that Schumacher does some "sawing" through the whole passage.

I wonder if that might be a result of this technique of MS's that Brundle describes: "Michael achieves something very similar by teasing the back end of the car with the throttle. "

If that "teasing the back end" means that he almost lets the back wheels lose their grip the result of course is that he constantly has to do some minimal correcting adjustments by steering - you know in a tiny very small amount the same you do when you slide properly, the opposite-lock....

just my two cents...

yours,

ever so biased MIKABEST

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by Smooth


Are you serious? Mika introduced left-foot braking to F1?

Yes. As far as I know, this is a fact.

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by Foxbat
...if a driver is smooth or ragged [/B]

Smooth.. this line rings some bells maybe three years ago. You suggested that we should swap nicknames since Hakkinen was (according to you) smooth, while Schumacher was ragged.

[Smooth]

Originally posted by RaggedEdge

Yes. As far as I know, this is a fact.

I am pretty sure that Senna left-foot braked, and I doubted he was the first to grow up in karts to bring that to F1.

Originally posted by RaggedEdge

Smooth.. this line rings some bells maybe three years ago. You suggested that we should swap nicknames since Hakkinen was (according to you) smooth, while Schumacher was ragged.

I do remember. You told me, though, that I was wrong, IIRC.;)

[cupra]

I thought everyone in this BB said that the fastest drivers are the smoothest, using it as a negative point in some of the drivers' driving styles (Montoya, Massa, etc.). So, I guess that this might not be so true??

What do you think?

cheers

[davioissimo]

Originally posted by RaggedEdge

Mika was the first F1 driver to introduce left-foot braking, and this synchronisation of the pedal movements seems to be the reason for it.

[b]
With the introduction of traction control, Mika's speed gain of being able to accelerating out of corners with maximal efficiency may have been compromised.

Nah it didn't affect his speed having traction control infact the first race he was going to win last year spoilt by that engine failure was the first race they brought TC in...Spain. And it would've been a 'genuine' win too, driving faster than his oponents. There is too much analysis here as usual now anyway Mika and Michael would probably find this hilarious cos all they know is how to drive they just use their 'feel' the words feel and experience feel being the difference mainly between drivers is all you need for any analysis.

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by Smooth


I am pretty sure that Senna left-foot braked, and I doubted he was the first to grow up in karts to bring that to F1.

Hmm, I do not remeber this. Senna was really living most of his F1 career in times when they still had ancient stuff like manual gearshifting, with foot clutches and other ****, could not use left foot then. In the times of semiautomatic gearboxes, I still think he used foot clutch for starts. Hakkinen, I think, switched from the foot clutch to a hand-operated clutch freeing the left foot completely to braking. That is my recollection, anyway.

Originally posted by Smooth

I do remember. You told me, though, that I was wrong, IIRC.;)

Yeah, they were both ragged.

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by davioissimo

Nah it didn't affect his speed having traction control infact the first race he was going to win last year spoilt by that engine failure was the first race they brought TC in...Spain. And it would've been a 'genuine' win too, driving faster than his oponents. There is too much analysis here as usual now anyway Mika and Michael would probably find this hilarious cos all they know is how to drive they just use their 'feel' the words feel and experience feel being the difference mainly between drivers is all you need for any analysis.

Famously, Mika said that he dialled out the traction control to make his last qualifying lap count. You are probably right that both Mika and Michael just drive by the seat of their pants, feeling the edge of traction. The result is, as Brundle said, still black and white in the telemetry sheet, open for this kind of analysis. Shame that we do not have those telemetry sheets, though...

[Ross Stonefeld]

You can left foot brake a car with a manual transmission, you just ahve to be good. Emmerson Fittipaldi was doing it in CART back in the 80s

re the graph: I dont think it says anything. Did they have the same setups? do they have the same driving style? where they carrying the exact same amount of speed into the corner? Maybe Johnny got some understeer or oversteer on turn in and had to correct. Without knowing about a thousand other variables, its difficult to analyse the graph effectively

[tifoso]

Originally posted by RaggedEdge
Mika was the first F1 driver to introduce left-foot braking, and this synchronisation of the pedal movements seems to be the reason for it.

I don't think this is true. Alesi left-foot braked, IIRC. His first GP was in 1989; Hakkinen's in 1991.

[silver]

From the ancient times drivers have been using left foot braking but mainly for example in fast corners to balance the car and to tigh the rear-end tighter to the ground.

But Hakkinen was indeed the driver who introduced 2-pedal system to F1. And he was always using left foot for braking, not only for balancing the car. This also demanded that the clutch had to be moved to steering wheel as RaggedEdge said. Schumacher was one of the first drivers to follow Hakkinen to 2 pedal system and total left foot breaking.

mikabest: Where can I find that whole article?

[RaggedEdge]

Originally posted by silver
From the ancient times drivers have been using left foot braking but mainly for example in fast corners to balance the car and to tigh the rear-end tighter to the ground.

But Hakkinen was indeed the driver who introduced 2-pedal system to F1. And he was always using left foot for braking, not only for balancing the car. This also demanded that the clutch had to be moved to steering wheel as RaggedEdge said. Schumacher was one of the first drivers to follow Hakkinen to 2 pedal system and total left foot breaking.

mikabest: Where can I find that whole article?

That is what I recalled also, thanks silver, for the better formulated backup - so Hakkinen was the pioneer of pure dedicated-pedal left-foot braking in F1. It is good that there are still some of us here who have been around since those ancient times..

[Supa Fly]

i recorded this program, and still have it!

jh and ms were both running on quali setup, and iirc ms was 7 tenths quicker over the entire lap...and indeed ms was correcting tiny slides, while jh just turned into the corner as if he was on rails

[chooch]

Senna: "Its as if there are two different Bennetons." I wonder what he meant

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sounds like a better way to describe it would be MIka was the first guy to go to hand clutch, because even guys with right-foot braking use a hand clutch.

[RJL]

Originally posted by RaggedEdge

Hmm, I do not remeber this. Senna was really living most of his F1 career in times when they still had ancient stuff like manual gearshifting, with foot clutches and other ****, could not use left foot then.

Back in the mid eighties I left foot braked through the better part of an F2000 season. Those cars used a foot clutch and a Hewland crashbox. Left foot braking (and clutchless up & down shifting) was easy in those cars (compared to road cars) because of the lack of gear syncronizers in the gearbox. You just had to match the revs with a certain level of precision. So if I ( and some of my contemporary competitors) could do it, I'm sure that Senna and his contemporaries would have had no problem with it.

Alesi was the last driver in F1 to still brake with his right foot, not the first to LFB. The Jordan pedal cluster had to be modified to suit him when he went there last year.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by RJL
Alesi was the last driver in F1 to still brake with his right foot, not the first to LFB. The Jordan pedal cluster had to be modified to suit him when he went there last year.

That was it! Thanks RJL. I remember the 2001 year in review tape. They had a clip of someone at Jordan who said they tried to talk Alesi into using the car the way it was set up for Frenzten. He said that discussion lasted about a second -- Alesi got his way.

[Rene]

Originally posted by silver
Schumacher was one of the first drivers to follow Hakkinen to 2 pedal system and total left foot breaking.

MS drove a few laps in Eddie Irvines Ferrari in 1996 which was set for left braking, he liked it, then adopted this style for himself....

[karlth]

Originally posted by Rene


MS drove a few laps in Eddie Irvines Ferrari in 1996 which was set for left braking, he liked it, then adopted this style for himself....

Are you saying that Schumacher didn't left foot brake until 1996?

[AD]

I think that Irvine said in his book that it took MS a while to be convinced about left foot braking, or something to that effect. So it's most likely that it wasn't until '96 that MS started left foot braking. When did Mika start left foot braking? I have some notion in my head that it wasn't until '94. Not sure though :

[magic]

now give me the graphs of prost, senna and ms in a '93 race.
prost ultrasmooth, senna dancing on the trottle and ms sawing away on his steeringwheel.
who was quickest?

[Rene]

Originally posted by karlth


Are you saying that Schumacher didn't left foot brake until 1996?

Yup thats what Im saying...if you check out the book "The Passion and the Pain" it has an anecdote that MS wanted to run some laps before the sun went down at their test tack, the mechanics didn't have time to switch Irvines car to MS's setup. So MS went out in the car, and was impressed, and decided to adopt that style for his race car, which of course was a lot of work to convert his car from a foot clutch to a steering wheel clutch....

[Ross Stonefeld]

Im allways a little skeptical and confused by the guys being surprised by left-foot braking. You left foot brake for 10 odd years in karts, then you have to right foot brake for a few years in cars, though a lot of the time you can get away with LFB. Im just a little surprised they dont use their techniques learned in karting in a car that handles closer to a kart than it does to an F3 or F3000 car


and as for Magic, the fastest guy would be the guy with the fatest car. All three are exceptional drivers and would be getting the absolute most out of their machine so on the day it would depend on the guy with the best chassis, engine, tires, and setup.

[Arrow]

Thats awesome.
Did you notice how much faster michael was even before bridge.
Miles faster through abbey as well.

Michael ended up 1.5 seconds faster than herbert at silverstone qualifying in 95.

[Zmeej]

What a great thread!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge folks!

[Thunder]

Originally posted by magic


now give me the graphs of prost, senna and ms in a '93 race.
prost ultrasmooth, senna dancing on the trottle and ms sawing away on his steeringwheel.
who was quickest?

What had Senna and Prost in their car and NOT MS?

[AD]

Originally posted by Foxbat
So the information was shared with the world, but not within the team?;)

On Thursday it was interesting listening to Button discuss with his engineer where he was loosing time to Jarno Trulli. They were going over the telemetry (which we can't see), and Jenson was 0.4s down at the time on Jarno. He was only loosing time at Casino Square, and at La Rascasse. Jenson just felt that he mucked up Casino square. However the engineer pointed out to him that Jarno was very different at La Rascasse than Jenson. Both had different steering input, and Trulli braked later into that corner. It was a very interesting conversation to listen to, and I thought sombody may be interested in it

It would be great if we could view some telemetry on even the BernieTV.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by magic


now give me the graphs of prost, senna and ms in a '93 race.
prost ultrasmooth, senna dancing on the trottle and ms sawing away on his steeringwheel.
who was quickest?

Not to topic and hard to tell about three drivers in three completely different cars, with different engines, and different levels of electronic aid. But if you want an answer to that; Schuey he nearly tied Prost in fastest laps despite Prost's car advantadge (in all fairness Prost was pushing 40 though).

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by AD

It would be great if we could view some telemetry on even the BernieTV.

I doubt the teams would be all too keen to share this info ;) Besides it may be a little too much of a close-up for the drivers too.

[karlth]

Larini on Schumacher in 1996

"Michael is *really* fast, believe me. His telemetry reveals he drives
different style. His set-up is different, he has a different turn in
and he left foot brakes all the time."
"Take high speed corners. Normally you can compare the way you are
losing time by looking at the throttle openings and seeing where someone
is flat and where they are lifting. But he's *always* flat, so there's
nothing to compare. The only thing he's changing is his pressure on the
brake pedal."

[Rene]

Barnard explains, "When Schumacher came to us I asked him, "Would you like a three pedal or two pedal car?" He said "I had three at Benetton and I don't see the need for two pedals." I said "Are you sure?" To which he replied "Yes". Then Eddie Irvine comes along and says "Oh, I've had two pedals at Jordan, its the way to go." This means you have the brake and throttle on the foot and on the steering wheel there are paddles for opening the gears and the clutch. It's a clutch rather like motorbikes have on their handlebars. Anyway Eddie had been testing somewhere shortly after the first race, jumped out of his car and for some reason the team wanted to pop Schumacher in quickly before the end of the test. The car still had Eddie's two pedal system in it. They asked Schumacher if he minded using two pedals and he said "No I don't mind, I'll drive it for a few laps." He gets out a few laps later and says "I want a two pedal car." So we're all back to two pedals. Now thats great but the problem with two pedals is that you can go on the brake pedal before you come off the throttle. You can position the brake pedal more to the left so you can use your left foot for braking..."

Barnard describing the 1996 season, pages 57-59 of Ferrari The Passion and the Pain....

[dbltop]

It is interesting to see the telemetry from the two drivers overlaid like that. Too bad Johnnie H.wasn't allowed to see it.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Rene


Barnard describing the 1996 season, pages 57-59 of Ferrari The Passion and the Pain....

In the Ross Brawn article I posted Alesi says in 1995-1996 that Schumacher told him he left foot braked but when he asked Michael's engineers at Benetton they said he didn't.

[DOHC]

Originally posted by karlth
In the Ross Brawn article I posted Alesi says in 1995-1996 that Schumacher told him he left foot braked but when he asked Michael's engineers at Benetton they said he didn't.

He probably didn't want to give the secret of success away.

[tifoso]

Steve Matchett has also written about Schumacher's driving style...from A Mechanic's Tale:

Michael has a unique driving style, too; he likes the car to be built with a very stiff suspension, a set-up which reduces chassis roll to an absolute minimum. This is fine providing the driver is capable of handling the car in such a knife-edge condition; the problem is that reducing the roll produces a car which is constantly trying to break fee and slide across the tarmac as the tyres lose adhesion with the track. Forever playing with the steering wheel to catch an correct the oversteer, and constantly feathering the throttle to persuade the near-on 800 horsepower to relent for a split second and allow the tyres to grip the track again is physically very demanding and requires great strength of mind. Nevertheless, that is how Michael chose to drive and in his hands at least, the results of such a set-up speak for themselves.

[DOHC]

Tifosa, that looks spot on compared to the telemetry data at the start of the thread.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by DOHC
Tifosa, that looks spot on compared to the telemetry data at the start of the thread.

I thought so, too.

I also found this description of his driving style from John Barnard in Christopher Hilton's Michael Schumacher: The Ferrari Years:

"Through all the season [1995] we'd been dealing with the 12-cylinder engine and it had a lot of internal friction in it. Our drivers were finding it difficult to drive smoothly because of this internal friction. Every time you lifted off the throttle you'd get a big reaction from the engine and it would tend to upset the car. We were always struggling with this. Schumacher, on the other hand, drove the car very differently and it was the first insight I'd had into seeing just how differently. We thought 'oh, he'll get in the 10-cylinder and it will be better,' because the engine had less friction inside it, it was smoother to driver. You could lift off and it didn't have the massive reaction, and so on and so on. It was lighter at the back of the car and that would help.

Not so. In fact Schumacher preferred the 12 because he drove it on the throttle and that's what I didn't understand until I was there. He had a front end that would turn into a corner like a go-kart: just flick it in and you're gone trough the corner. What he did, he balanced the car on the throttle all the way through the corner and he needed the braking power of the engine to make the car react to the throttle.
...
By this time [the Estoril test] we had already gone down the road for the 10-cylinder, which was the correct decision anyway, but because of that we had to put a 7-speed gearbox in. Schumacher wanted that braking capability and to get it he would run the corner in a higher gear. He [Schumacher] said, 'I need seven speeds because I need to be able to select exactly the gear I want through the corner, therefore giving myself the engine braking: if I can run the engine at high revs I've got more engine braking' -- because there's more friction. And of course coming out of the corner with the revs up you are already nearer the peak power."