Hi Guys,
I have a quez about the fastest race lap in the french GP of 1953.
Forix states that Fangio drove it in a 2.41.0 as i have other sources that state that it was a shared fastest lap by Fangio and Ascari in 2.40.1.
Does anyone know what happened ?
This also leads to a difference in final classification of Forix and some books i have (GP Databook by Holland and Hayhoe) (fastest laps was worth 1 point )
and also in number of fastest laps driven by driver as i get 1 difference for Ascari.
Can someone fill me out ?
Greetings
Fastest race Lap in French GP 1953
Started by
Tyrian
, May 30 2002 09:20
28 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
Vitesse2
-
- 43,397 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 30 May 2002 - 10:57
Now the obvious answer here seemed to be to go back to original sources. However, Motor Sport just adds to the confusion (slightly);
Fastest lap: JM Fangio (Maserati) in 2min41.1sec = 136.531kph
No mention of Ascari though ....
Fastest lap: JM Fangio (Maserati) in 2min41.1sec = 136.531kph
No mention of Ascari though ....
#3
LittleChris
-
- 4,066 posts
- Joined: April 01
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 12:15
Vitesse,
Shouldn't that read 136 MPH ? After all this is Reims we're talking about and 136KPH is only about 85MPH.
Shouldn't that read 136 MPH ? After all this is Reims we're talking about and 136KPH is only about 85MPH.
#4
Vitesse2
-
- 43,397 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 30 May 2002 - 12:25
Oops - that should be 186.531kph! Thanks Chris. 
(Memo to self - get your eyes tested!)
(Memo to self - get your eyes tested!)
#5
Tyrian
-
- 42 posts
- Joined: November 01
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 12:53
>> Vitesse2
Indeed more confusion....
Maybe the final rankings of that year can give some solution as i also have 2 versions of that.
That because in one source Ascari AND fangio get 0.5 pt for the fastest lap as on Forix Fangio gets a full point for being the only one.
What i think is that both drivers indeed drove 2.40.1 but that they still ranked them as 1 and 2.
Anyone has more info or opinion ?
Indeed more confusion....
Maybe the final rankings of that year can give some solution as i also have 2 versions of that.
That because in one source Ascari AND fangio get 0.5 pt for the fastest lap as on Forix Fangio gets a full point for being the only one.
What i think is that both drivers indeed drove 2.40.1 but that they still ranked them as 1 and 2.
Anyone has more info or opinion ?
#6
Tyrian
-
- 42 posts
- Joined: November 01
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 12:57
i mean offcourse 2.41.1
....
jeez my eyes need testing too...
....
jeez my eyes need testing too...
#7
Wolf
-
- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 13:51
Now, to make things even worse, Lang's "Grand Prix!", has Fangio (lap 25) and Ascari (lap 37) in 2:41.1 ... 
#8
Tyrian
-
- 42 posts
- Joined: November 01
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 14:09
So to summarize....
We have Fangio driving the fastest lap in 2.41.0 (Forix) , 2.41.1 (GP Data, Langs GP).
Did or did he not share this fastest lap with Ascari who drove a 2.41.1 ? Forix says NO, GP Databook says YES (as well as the Marlboro Guide and another yearbook).
Final points 1953 season: Fangio 28 pts (Forix), Fangio 27.5 pts (GP Databook)
(Ascari's points dont matter as only the best 4 scores counted towards championship and ascari's french GP points were not counted)
What is correct ???
We have Fangio driving the fastest lap in 2.41.0 (Forix) , 2.41.1 (GP Data, Langs GP).
Did or did he not share this fastest lap with Ascari who drove a 2.41.1 ? Forix says NO, GP Databook says YES (as well as the Marlboro Guide and another yearbook).
Final points 1953 season: Fangio 28 pts (Forix), Fangio 27.5 pts (GP Databook)
(Ascari's points dont matter as only the best 4 scores counted towards championship and ascari's french GP points were not counted)
What is correct ???
#9
Roger Clark
-
- 7,570 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 17:46
Autocourse published a complete lap chart and had the same as Lang: Fangio (lap 25) and Ascari (lap 37) both 1min 41.1
#10
David Holland
-
- 166 posts
- Joined: May 02
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 18:08
Although I was there when we compiled this data, I can not remember the reason we went for this option. Autocourse and the inclusion of a lap chart always helped when making a decision, especially for the sake of accuracy. Original sources are always best, as you well know mistakes are often copied through - and it is sometimes easy to spot the beginning of the thread. Believe you me it is very easy to get bogged down in minutiae. Once we were happy with a result we were reluctant to change, except for good reasons. You can easily go round in circles.
What about a world summit to sort these discrepancies out once and for all!!
If that's a French GP problem - what about Behra and Schell in the '57 race. Who was 5th and who was 6th? We're sticking with our thoughts - but who really knows? More to the point - who cares?!
DPH
What about a world summit to sort these discrepancies out once and for all!!
If that's a French GP problem - what about Behra and Schell in the '57 race. Who was 5th and who was 6th? We're sticking with our thoughts - but who really knows? More to the point - who cares?!
DPH
#11
ensign14
-
- 64,879 posts
- Joined: December 01
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 19:16
Wow, another Proper Published Historian graces these pages...welcome, Mr Holland.
Incidentally, a quick search will reveal that an awful lot of people care very deeply as to who came 5th in the French Grand Prix in 1957...
Incidentally, a quick search will reveal that an awful lot of people care very deeply as to who came 5th in the French Grand Prix in 1957...
#12
FEV
-
- 909 posts
- Joined: May 01
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 19:24
To add to the confusion : exactly the same data as Lang for Edmond Cohin...Originally posted by Wolf
Now, to make things even worse, Lang's "Grand Prix!", has Fangio (lap 25) and Ascari (lap 37) in 2:41.1 ...
#13
David Holland
-
- 166 posts
- Joined: May 02
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:16
Many thanks for your kind welcoming Mr Ensign14.
I didn't wish to upset any regulat TNFer who I know care about such matters of accurate reporting. It's just that the general race fan, quite a few journalists and most of the guys active in F1 today do not seem that bothered about what has gone on before.
History just doesn't seem to sell, which is a big shame as a little understanding of what's gone before helps appreciate this great sport.
Going back to the thread of fastest laps - which is a minefield. What about Hasemi at Fuji. The records at the time gave him the fastest lap, but subsequent checking found a time-keeping error which gave the lap to Laffite. The latter is therefore the true fastest lap but the official results credit Hasemi. Which one is right?
DPH
I didn't wish to upset any regulat TNFer who I know care about such matters of accurate reporting. It's just that the general race fan, quite a few journalists and most of the guys active in F1 today do not seem that bothered about what has gone on before.
History just doesn't seem to sell, which is a big shame as a little understanding of what's gone before helps appreciate this great sport.
Going back to the thread of fastest laps - which is a minefield. What about Hasemi at Fuji. The records at the time gave him the fastest lap, but subsequent checking found a time-keeping error which gave the lap to Laffite. The latter is therefore the true fastest lap but the official results credit Hasemi. Which one is right?
DPH
#14
Vitesse2
-
- 43,397 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:30
David: rest assured you are among friends here! And a hearty welcome! Messrs Schell and Behra and Messrs Hasemi and Laffite have occupied us for many happy hours here, as I could demonstrate if only the search function was not disabled for maintenance at the moment! 
Now, if you could just provide a definite answer to the scoring mysteries of the 1939 European Championship .... (yes - I know: not your period!)
Now, if you could just provide a definite answer to the scoring mysteries of the 1939 European Championship .... (yes - I know: not your period!)
#15
Ray Bell
-
- 82,240 posts
- Joined: December 99
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:35
Originally posted by Tyrian
i mean offcourse 2.41.1
....
jeez my eyes need testing too...
I'll say... to see how much dust there was?
#16
Wolf
-
- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:43
Richard, it's been down for few hours since yesterday...;) Well, sometimes things do get wrong and I hope Bira's going to get it right.
BTW, being obstinant, I checked the threads all the way down to page #24 (
, plus one for my Moss stories being on #15)...
So, David here's two page thread on Reims '57, plus to show that GP de l'A.C.F. is constant source of confusion I've came accross two threads ( 1st thread and 2nd thread ) on '56 race (pole position issue)... BTW, welcome!
BTW, being obstinant, I checked the threads all the way down to page #24 (
, plus one for my Moss stories being on #15)...So, David here's two page thread on Reims '57, plus to show that GP de l'A.C.F. is constant source of confusion I've came accross two threads ( 1st thread and 2nd thread ) on '56 race (pole position issue)... BTW, welcome!
#17
Vitesse2
-
- 43,397 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:49
Wolf: you have either more patience or more time than me! 
#18
Barry Lake
-
- 2,169 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:54
Originally posted by David Holland
More to the point - who cares?!
DPH
A whole heap of people on TNF.
It's one of the major reasons we're here.
#19
Wolf
-
- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
Posted 30 May 2002 - 23:55
Smoking as much as I do, I seriously doubt I have much time... 
No, 'twas quite easy to find- multi page thread with black dot, took me 10mins which I'd waste anyway since I'm downloading a lap of old Spa (20MB)... :
No, 'twas quite easy to find- multi page thread with black dot, took me 10mins which I'd waste anyway since I'm downloading a lap of old Spa (20MB)... :
Advertisement
#20
stevew
-
- 495 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 31 May 2002 - 00:18
Well, I certainly DO care!
In 1953, I was only 4 years old, growing up in Indianapolis, one mile east of the Indy 500 speedway. When I was about 15 or 16 (still living in the same place), thanks to ABC sports, I saw some coverage of a race "over there" called LeMans. I won't go into details, but suddenly I discovered road racing and in the late '60s, started following Formula One. About 1975, I became interested in F1 statistics (slim pickings back then)...
I've wondered about that 1953 French GP FL.
I can only go by the sources that I have (books that I buy)... (all times 2:41.1 except Small, who didn't list FL times)...
Mike Lang: Fangio.
David Hayhoe/David Holland: Fangio/Ascari.
Trevor Griffiths: Fangio/Ascari.
Steve Small: Fangio.
Jacques Deschenaux: Fangio.
Bruce Jones: Fangio.
Now, what about that 1/7 point thing in the 1954 British GP?
In 1953, I was only 4 years old, growing up in Indianapolis, one mile east of the Indy 500 speedway. When I was about 15 or 16 (still living in the same place), thanks to ABC sports, I saw some coverage of a race "over there" called LeMans. I won't go into details, but suddenly I discovered road racing and in the late '60s, started following Formula One. About 1975, I became interested in F1 statistics (slim pickings back then)...
I've wondered about that 1953 French GP FL.
I can only go by the sources that I have (books that I buy)... (all times 2:41.1 except Small, who didn't list FL times)...
Mike Lang: Fangio.
David Hayhoe/David Holland: Fangio/Ascari.
Trevor Griffiths: Fangio/Ascari.
Steve Small: Fangio.
Jacques Deschenaux: Fangio.
Bruce Jones: Fangio.
Now, what about that 1/7 point thing in the 1954 British GP?
#21
Vitesse2
-
- 43,397 posts
- Joined: April 01
Administrator
Posted 31 May 2002 - 01:10
Steve: you can add Stephen Hirst to that list, with Fangio alone (same time).
Now, all these are primarily English-language sources, but we seem to have two schools of thought, one of which is based on Motor Sport and the other on Autocourse. Autocourse may be using another primary source: French, German or Italian perhaps? I think we need the relevant magazines checked here - Autosprint etc etc .... oh - and Autosport please Roger!!
As for the 1954 British GP, I thought we'd decided they were using an eggtimer ...
Now, all these are primarily English-language sources, but we seem to have two schools of thought, one of which is based on Motor Sport and the other on Autocourse. Autocourse may be using another primary source: French, German or Italian perhaps? I think we need the relevant magazines checked here - Autosprint etc etc .... oh - and Autosport please Roger!!
As for the 1954 British GP, I thought we'd decided they were using an eggtimer ...
#22
Milan Fistonic
-
- 1,769 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 31 May 2002 - 09:24
The Motor Year Book credits Fangio with the fastest lap at 2m 41.1s on lap 25.
#23
Milan Fistonic
-
- 1,769 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 31 May 2002 - 09:29
And David Hodges, in his French Grand Prix book, gives it to Fangio and Ascari.
#24
Roger Clark
-
- 7,570 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 31 May 2002 - 17:38
Originally posted by Vitesse2
Now, all these are primarily English-language sources, but we seem to have two schools of thought, one of which is based on Motor Sport and the other on Autocourse. Autocourse may be using another primary source: French, German or Italian perhaps? I think we need the relevant magazines checked here - Autosprint etc etc .... oh - and Autosport please Roger!!
You're going to wish you hadn't asked, don't say I didn't warn you....
THe race report gave it to Fangio in 2min 41.1. THe following week there was a table giving the fastest lap of every car in the race: Fangio 2min 41.0 (lap 25), Ascari (2min 41.1 lap 37). The average speed was 186.531 kph in both cases.
I believe Autocourse used lap charts provided by the organisers.
#25
David Holland
-
- 166 posts
- Joined: May 02
Member
Posted 31 May 2002 - 17:56
Thanks again for your warm greetings - Vitesse2 & Wolf. Unfortunately I'm not going to be a lot of help concerning the 1939 European Championship. I have a wide interest in motor racing but it is the World Championship that caught my imagination many years ago. I know motor sport exists outside these confines, but the championship comes as a self-contained unit - you're either in it or you're not.
Many thanks Wolf for providing the previous threads on Behra/Schell, it was fascinating reading. I was aware of the push over the line and due to this credit Behra higher in the finishing order than Schell, because he "completed" this lap first. The crux of the matter is whether the local French rule of slow last laps entitled the FIA (or equivalent of the time) to alter the World Championship standings. If this is the case I will change my opinion.
On a personal note, I feel a car should cross the line under its own power and I was not impressed with the endless fuel sapping races of the turbo era. The sight of Prost et al pushing their cars on the pit straight was good for the casual viewer no doubt, but against the true racers spirit. But I'm getting off the thread here.
Also to Barry Lake and stevew - I was being a bit provocative. I know you guys care and most of the TNF regulars as well, but there is a general feeling of nonchalance in many race fans. Maybe it's not cool to like history!!
BTW Great forum and a brilliant concept, I will keep tuning in.
DPH
Many thanks Wolf for providing the previous threads on Behra/Schell, it was fascinating reading. I was aware of the push over the line and due to this credit Behra higher in the finishing order than Schell, because he "completed" this lap first. The crux of the matter is whether the local French rule of slow last laps entitled the FIA (or equivalent of the time) to alter the World Championship standings. If this is the case I will change my opinion.
On a personal note, I feel a car should cross the line under its own power and I was not impressed with the endless fuel sapping races of the turbo era. The sight of Prost et al pushing their cars on the pit straight was good for the casual viewer no doubt, but against the true racers spirit. But I'm getting off the thread here.
Also to Barry Lake and stevew - I was being a bit provocative. I know you guys care and most of the TNF regulars as well, but there is a general feeling of nonchalance in many race fans. Maybe it's not cool to like history!!
BTW Great forum and a brilliant concept, I will keep tuning in.
DPH
#26
LittleChris
-
- 4,066 posts
- Joined: April 01
Member
Posted 31 May 2002 - 23:11
Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
And David Hodges, in his French Grand Prix book, gives it to Fangio and Ascari.
Just to add a bit more from the Hodges book:
Fastest Lap: Fangio & Ascari 2Min 41 .1sec (115.91 mph ) ( 186.531kph ).
Autosport race report just says: fastest Lap: Fangio 115.91 mph.
Wolf,
Where is the download of the old Spa lap available, I'm sure plenty of people would be interested !
Chris
#27
Wolf
-
- 7,883 posts
- Joined: June 00
Member
#28
Tyrian
-
- 42 posts
- Joined: November 01
Member
Posted 03 June 2002 - 14:03
I see that there is not a unique solution to this 'problem'
Does this mean that there are 2 versions of the final classification for that year too ?
I mean, one must have Fangio classified with a full point for his fastest lap and the other shall have him with half-point.
Can viewing the final class. maybe bring a solution ?
Does this mean that there are 2 versions of the final classification for that year too ?
I mean, one must have Fangio classified with a full point for his fastest lap and the other shall have him with half-point.
Can viewing the final class. maybe bring a solution ?
#29
Roger Clark
-
- 7,570 posts
- Joined: February 00
Member
Posted 03 June 2002 - 23:19
I have never seen a contemporary championship table which shared the fastest lap point at the French GP. At the British GP, Ascari and Gonzalez shared the point, so the principle was established. Indeed, the only contemporary source I know of that gives equal fastest lap at Reims to Ascari is autocourse; and this was only in the lap chart. The race result gives sole fastest lap to Fangio.
