24 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

News reaches me from the former colonies that a certain John Mecom in Indianapolis has purchased the Massimino-designed flat eight de Tomaso F1 car (F1-801). This is the car that first appeared in practice at the 1962 Italian GP and finally raced in the Gran Premio di Roma at Vallelunga on 19 May 1963. It was at the British GP meeting in 1963 but not practiced and I can't find anything more about it after that.

John Bolster writes a couple of paragraphs about it in his Monza report (Autosport 21 Sep 1962 p391) and Jenks gives it a full page in Motor Sport (Oct 1962 p773). Pritchard has a few paragraphs on it but Hodges only a few words. Doug Nye's 45-65 book has a photograph and contributes a few new details.

However, a restoration will require all possible information so does anyone know any other sources on this car - perhaps in the Italian press? And does anyone have any photographs?

Thanks

Allen

[Doug Nye]

I recall being shown what I presume to have been this car - only one built, surely - in the store at De Tomaso's works. Our guide was Guarino ('Guerrino') Bertocchi.

DCN

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
News reaches me from the former colonies that a certain John Mecom in Indianapolis has purchased the Massimino-designed flat eight de Tomaso F1 car (F1-801). This is the car that first appeared in practice at the 1962 Italian GP and finally raced in the Gran Premio di Roma at Vallelunga on 19 May 1963. It was at the British GP meeting in 1963 but not practiced

Was it at Silverstone?

[marhal]

Hello everybody...............

That car was drove at Vallelunga (5-19-63) by the argentinian driver Nasif Estéfano. According with some stories, that car was made through a contract signed between De Tomaso y Estéfano, but the car was undriveable and Estéfano lost his money. According to Estéfano point of view "that car was a s..................".

[Gerr]

The Mecom purchase is interesting. In 1964 Mecom had three deTomaso cars, a FJ/Holbay, a so called "Formula Senior" with an Alfa 1300 and the cast monocoque car with a 289 Ford. Would he still have them?
There was a 2 litre flat 8 deTomaso sports car built with a central tube chassis, photos in the january '64 SCG.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Gerr
... In 1964 Mecom had ... the cast monocoque car with a 289 Ford ...

So that car was actually built? I thought it never got off the drawing board.

It is possible that Mecom has had them all this time. I'm tryig to find out.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Was it at Silverstone?

Roger

Yes - according to Motor Sport it was present but they couldn't get it running properly so it didn't practice. Might you have pictures?

Allen

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Roger

Yes - according to Motor Sport it was present but they couldn't get it running properly so it didn't practice. Might you have pictures?

Allen

Allen,

I can't find that reference. All I can find is "To complete the entry list there was that well known non-starter the 8-cylinder de Tomaso, although the designer builder was in the paddock waiting for the car to arrive, which it failed to do."

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Gerr
.....and the cast monocoque car with a 289 Ford.

My recollection is that the F1 (an F1?) car has a cast monocoque chassis...

So is this that car re-engined, a different car or what?

[Rainer Nyberg]

Almost a thumbnail, but at least something to start with, found on the net :

[Rainer Nyberg]

A 1959 Formula 2 car found on the De Tomaso official website :

[Allen Brown]

Well found, Rainer!

The site also says (and this is their English, not a Babelfish translation) :


THE FIRST VICTORIES 1959-1968
1959. The network . Without any doubt, Modena was the right place for a .S.C.A. . After three years of good results, Alejandro became .S.C.A., even though in the meanwhile he was planning . Looking back at the . Even if he had started to build his own cars, 1960's. Indeed, De .S. was when he entered a .S.C.A. 750 cc in the 1959 Sebring 12-Hour race. Then, he purchased a (originally conceived for a Formula 2 car) from John Cooper, a 4 .S.C.A. and a gearbox from Colotti, in order to give.

In those period Formula Junior became very popular, and since 1960 De Tomaso was attracted by it like many other carmakers, such as De Sanctis, Stanguellini, Moretti, BMB, Lotus, Cooper and Elva. A Fiat 1100 cc engine and a VW gearbox were fitted to Cooper chassis in a hurry, however the car had serious troubles owing to its brakes.

For that reason Mr. De Tomaso decided to sell it to a fan from Florida, who in his turn sold the car to Chuck Moranto. As usual, Alejandro was going to increase the prestige of his firm.

The "Isis"(whose name is due to that of Mr. De Tomaso's wife) was equipped with a VW gearbox and a Fiat 1100 engine reaching a 240 km/h max speed. In 1960 a Formula Junior was manufactured with a Citroen gearbox and the following year a DKW engine was fitted to a Formula 2 chassis.

Tested by Von Trips, the latter was sent to America. In 1961, De Tomaso built six Grand Prix powered by a 1500 cc max displacement, two with O.S.C.A. engines for Count Volpi's Scuderia Serenissima, and two more for Scuderia Settecolli of Rome.

He also manufactured two others for the Serenissima team, which had Alfa engines. So De Tomaso cars made theid debut at Naples, where Businello finished fifth, while Alberti retired. Besides, these six vehicles appeared on the grid at German GP, Monaco GP and at the Formula 1 Modena GP. The final race of the year, that took place in Rome in 1961, was the National Coppa Italia F1 race, where Businello and Lippi finished fourth and fifth respectively. This was really a successful result.

De Tomaso 1962 Formula 1 car mounted a De Tomaso gearbox, while at Naples and Mediterranean GP vehicles were equipped with 1500 O.S.C.A. engines, that had been fitted by Cornero. One of the two cars which took part in Italian GP was powered by F1-801, a horizontally opposed 8-cylinder De Tomaso engine. The following year a horizontally opposed 4-cylinder engine was built, and a very ambitious plan, an Indy car, was carried out. With its magnesium central body, it had a 4.2 liter-V8 Ford engine and a De Tomaso 6-speed transmission. 6 Indy cars were sent to America, but only one was purchased by John Mecon jr., who wanted a Fairlane engine mounted. Nowadays we have no information about this automobile any longer.

In 1964 De Tomaso was ordered a 1000 cc extremely compact Formula 2 engine, called De Tomaso Holbay, which in its last versions produced 112 hp. Nevertheless, the same year Formula Junior disappeared and was replaced by Formula 2 and Formula 3. This last new class was taken by Mario Casoni to victory at Caserta for the first time, however Monza was fast becoming De Tomaso's "lucky" track. 1964 was also the year of the prototype Sport 2000, characterized by the favourite "spine chassis" tubular frame, connected to the 1500 cc De Tomaso engine, and a 6-speed transmission.

A new Formula 3 equipped with a 1000 cc Ford engine and a particular chassis all around the driver was manufactured in 1965. The following year the Sport 5000 had a CAN-AM 8-cylinder De Tomaso engine, and the prototype Monoposto 5000 chassis was rolled out at Turin Motor Show. Sport 1000 - BRM engine and 5-speed transmission - was shown in 1967, while a new Formula 2 was produced with a 1600 cc Cosworth engine and Hewland gearbox.

So the cast monocoque car was the Indy car?

Allen

[Roger Clark]

The following appeared in Motor Racing March 1963

During the past few years, de tomaso has tried various foundaries, their techniques and materials. Despite this, finding the right people for this single seater wasn't easy, because the monocoque is made of alloy castings. (you can imagine the size of some of the wood castings patterns!)

This car is designed to tke his own flat-eight or, for free-formula racing the V8 ford Fairlane racing. The first car will be Ford powered iand is destined for a Texan driver, john Mecom Jnr.

and this, in October hte same year:

Alessandro de Tomaso recently completed his first cast monocoque, this being powered by a ford V8 and commissioned by Texan John Mecom Jnr, as a possible Indy competitor next year.

Whether it works or not, this out monocoques them all! The chassis is a one piece casting. De tomaso, who accompanied the car to the US says that there was a group of Chrysler engineers 'on hand' at New york's Idlewild Airport to inspect the car. THey were more than surprised, after a minute search for joints, bolts or rivert to discover that this cast bath tub was one piece, and not jointed sections!

After much experimenting with materials, processes and various foundaries, de tomaso made an agreement with Campagnolo (ex Amadori0 of Bologna, an outfit which specialises in cast wheels and disc brakes among other things. (The parent company is Itly's foremost manufacturer of 'Durailleur' bicycle gears among other things). The essence of the agreement was "you do it as I want it done, and I'll take the responsibility. THe result is an extremely clean and workmanlike job, in spite of its size. The car employs the basic rocker-arm and inboard coil and damper suspension of the de Tomaso F1 and FJ cars. At the rear the suspension is mounted on the the de Tomaso gearbox/differential which was made specially for this car. This in turn is mounted on a multi-tubular aircraft-style sub-frame, aft of the cast chassis "fire wall".

In Indianapolis form, that is, with either an American V8 or the Offenhauser (which, according to de Tomaso, the car will accommodate, the gearbox will have three speeds. For Formula 1, with the flat-eight de Tomaso engine, the same casting will house six speeds.

THe tracks, front and rear respectively, 52 1/2 inches and 54 inches. The weight of thecar, maximum with ford V8, oil and water, is 496 kg.

Wherther he followsit up or not (he's wont to go off on tangents! de Tomaso has produced a daring and imaginative design. In spite of the chassis being one big casting he says that detail changes, if necessary, will be possible.

The sports car with the 300 mm backbone tube chassis is still under construction, with plans for making it the basis of a GT caras well. Also under discussion is a Formula 1 V12 engine.

Micky Thompson was in Modena recently, where he had lengthy talks with de Tomaso and said that much of their basic thinking had a lotin common. THere may in the future be some liaison work between these two, particularly in castings, on would imagine.

THe article is accompanied by a photo of the single seater, with bodywork unfortunately, and one of de tomaso, Thompson and Masten Gregory, apparantly in deep discussion.

[Doug Nye]

Soon after, a drawing was published of the backbone chassis De Tomaso sports car, drawn by yr fthfl srvnt, one of the first tasks I was set to do, straight out of school.
DCN

[Concreteconrods]

It was definately at Silverstone in 1963.

On the Friday practise day I was in the paddock and I noticed a single seater under a tarpaulin. Being curious I lifted the cover to see the 8 cylinder engine. The car didn't run and no one was attending to it.

Sadly I don't have a picture to prove my claim.

[jeffbee]

 

From the 1962 Italian GP.  I think it managed a very slow lap in practice.

[jeffbee]

[jeffbee]

[Tim Murray]

(posted on behalf of Willem Oosthoek; his words follow)

John Mecom owned four deTomasos in the early 1960s, starting with a 1.3-liter Alfa Veloce-engined Isis open wheeler that was supposed to compete in a new Formula Senior class, which unfortunately never took off in the US. So, it ran mostly by itself in FS or as a Formule Libre.

Bob Schroeder raced it primarily, although later on it was also run for Mecom by Delmo Johnson and John Henry Kirby. The photos show the car as raced by Schroeder in 1962. He won the features at Green Valley and Hammond [shown] that year.

[Tim Murray]

(more from Willem)

The second deTomaso bought was a Holbay-engined Formula Junior, seen here with John Mecom and Bob Schroeder in late 1962, although Schroeder never competed in it. Its regular driver was Mecom's old friend John Henry Kirby. Note the Formula One Scarab in the background, which Mecom bought from Lance Reventlow without an engine.

[Tim Murray]

(more from Willem)

The third de Tomaso bought by Mecom was this sportsracer. Originally it featured an EM-class 2-liter OSCA engine, which proved troublesome and was replaced by [depending on the reports] by a 1.3- or 1.5-liter unit, to run in FM class.

Schroeder raced it first at Mansfield [seen here] in early September 1962, where it developed ignition issues during practice and was withdrawn. Next, it took the start at Galveston in mid-September, where it managed a 2nd overall [FM1] in the prelim. There was no sign of the car in the feature results, though, which probably indicated a DNF.

It re-appeared in Mexico City for the final time in 1962, late in September. Schroeder had a good dice with Homer Rader's winning Lotus 23/Ford, but once again the deTomaso dropped out.

[WINO]

And then there was the fourth de Tomaso that John Mecom bought, the mystery monocoque Indy car. According to Frank Lance, who first worked for Mecom from November 1963 till June 1964: " Mecom let de Tomaso talk him into buying several cars from him. The Indy car sat in the shop for some time the first time I worked for MRT. It had a cast magnesium alloy tub, but no engine or transmission. One time Pedro Rodriguez was in the shop, and I remember him checking this car out. John Mecom even had Pedro sit in the car. While I was with MRT, there was no talk of doing anything with it by us."

 

But there is more to the story. On the weekend of August 10-11, 1963, the Alamo Region of the SCCA hosted the first Carrera de la Capital sports car races, a regional event. Based on the program, MRT entered four cars.

 

#5 Augie Pabst [Lotus 19, EM class, for race 5 and 11]

#6 Roger Penske [Lotus Intercontinental, Unlimited class, for race 6 and 12]

#11 Delmo Johnson [de Tomaso FJ, for race 6 and 12]

#87 John Henry Kirby [de Tomaso, no spec mentioned apart from Unlimited class, likely the FS car, for race 6 and 12]

 

Race results show that Pabst won race 5 and retired in race 11. Penske was not mentioned at all in any of the reports or results, and neither was Johnson [although he was there]. Kirby finished 2nd overall in race 6 and 12, in the de Tomaso Formula Senior.

 

It is unlikely that the Lotus IC [assigned to Penske] or the de Tomaso FJ [assigned to Johnson] were present in Austin that weekend. But the de Tomaso Indy car did make an appearance, under race #6 [originally assigned to Penske's Lotus IC]. When interviewed in January 2012, Delmo Johnson remembered the Indy car and its big Ford engine, since he had first-hand experience: "It ran out of everything in practice". It did not make race 6 or 12.

 

The Monday morning issue of The Austin Statesman featured a photo of Mecom with the de Tomaso Indy car at the racetrack. Since Johnson ran it in practice, without Mecom's regular crew ever having touched it, the Ford V8 must have been installed outside of the Houston shop. Most likely, before it was delivered, by Alessandro himself, only to be uninstalled in Houston after the car proved such a disaster during its first race appearance in August.

Edited by WINO, 28 April 2025 - 20:23.

[Tim Murray]

(more from Willem)

A rare picture of the Ford-engined de Tomaso Indy car seen in practice at Austin in August 1963. Note the race number 6, originally assigned to the Roger Penske Lotus IC entry. After its dismal performance, both engine and transmission were removed, and the magnesium tub went into hibernation.

Frank Lance: "While I was with Shelby American from July 64 to July 65, a local Houston person put the Ford engine in it and raced it in area races. I can't remember his name, but he did some work for Mecom. I don't know if Mecom sold him that car, or that he just let him do something with it, instead of just letting it sit."

[Tim Murray]

(more from Willem)

A later shot of the Mecom de Tomaso Indy car, after a Ford V8 was reinstalled and the car was sorted out. The location and date are unknown but based on the wide and open space in the background, likely the starting grid of a mixed Unlimited/VW/FJ field at Galveston or Mansfield.

The Houston-based driver, also the engine installer, remains unknown so far, in spite of your truly trying to jigger the memory of the various surviving Texas racers of that era. The late Bob Schroeder knew who he was, but I forgot to register his name at the time.

Schroeder told me that the driver lost his life in the car at Green Valley Raceway at one point and that the de Tomaso was probably junked after that. The incident must have taken place after February 1966, since photos taken by Jerry Melton [on display on Cliff Reuter's website] show the spotless car without a race number on a Mecom trailer [on display?] during the Frostbite Races at Green Valley. See the second photo.

Frank Lance, returning to Mecom in July 1965 after his time at Shelby American, never saw the car in the Houston shop upon his return or any time after that.

[Tim Murray]

(more from Willem)

For a brief moment I thought I had figured out who the driver of the Mecom de Tomaso Indy car might be. During the February 1966 Frostbite races at Green Valley, Race 1 [for Unlimited entries] was won by a de Tomaso, driven by Houston resident Gary Dundas. But Frank Lance knew him as a decal salesman who primarily raced small production entries, and certainly not a Ford V8-engined car. He proved right when this photo by Jerry Melton surfaced, taken at the same event. It shows Dundas in the #39 Mecom de Tomaso Formula Senior, the 1.3-liter car in which Bob Schroeder had been so successful four years earlier. Rumors have it that after its competitive life Mecom would put the FS on display in his Houston residence. In other words, the Houston Indy car driver still remains a mystery today.