41 replies to this topic

[dretceterini]

It appears to me that at one time, there were at least 3 Tipo 308GP cars in South America, plus a 12c37. There is also a long persisting rumor that the Tipo 412 sports car with the Vignale body and 12c motor that ran in the 1951 Mille Miglia (race number 427) also went to South America. I have also heard over the years that the Bucci car (maybe there were 2) was a 308 with a 12c motor and vice-versa...

I would dearly love to know where the 412 sports is now and how many were actually buiolt (I have heard 2, 3 or 4...Fusi told me that there were 4 cars, but most books say only 2..!!

I know that the Vignale bodied car was offered to Henry Wessels circa 1953...

Any help on this matter would be GREATLY appreaciated.

Stu

[David McKinney]

Bucci's car was a 308 with a 12C engine - it had been taken to Argentina by Varzi. It was later rebuilt with a nice sportscar body - I wonder if that is the basis for the ex-MM 412 rumour?
As regards the other South American 308s, I known a lot of research is being done on the subject at the moment - perhaps the results will be avaiilable to TNF one day

[marhal]

Hello.............


An Alfa Romeo 308 3800 (in line eight) is on display at the Fangio Museum in Balcarce............www.museofangio.com. Other two Alfas (a 3800 and a P3) were destroyed in fatal accidents (Pablo L. Pesatti, Buenos Aires 1948 and Adriano Malusardi, Mar del Plata 1949).

[David McKinney]

I'm away from my source material right now, marhal, but I think the Pessatti car lived to race another day

[Patrick Italiano]

MMhhh.... You're leading us into a difficult problem.

I have not my archives at hand, but I can reply to some of your questions.

1. Sorry David, Bucci's car is NOT a 308 with 12C engine. It definitely has the lower chassis derivated from the ill-fated 12C37, turned into 316 in 1938. In 1947, the car was offeree to Varzi, and the original 4.5-litre engine, rebored to 4.6, was proferred to the 16-cyl 3-litre, of same output, but probably much easier to run due to less specific output. I clearly drew the appropriate conclusions in the article I sent to you some weeks ago, Stu. But there's still a point I don't know for sure. Bucci built a ports car in the 50's wit the 12C engine. Was that car built around the 12C chassis, or was the engine put into another chassis? BTW the car is being shipped to Europe to be entered at Goodwood.

For those not believing me, the tubular cross-member you see through the grille opening, with the steering linkage in the middle, is typical of the 312/316 chassis, evolved from 12C37.

2. The number of 412s built. Fusi states 4, Moore once wrote 2 in his 2.9 book. There's some some strong guess that they were at least 3. Clues are that the 12C engine exposed at the London exhibition this year wears , if I recall well, number 412004, and in 1939 412s raced abroad in both supercharged and unsupercharged form. This suggest the existence of 3 cars, since thsy didn't go back to the factory between two races.

3. 308s in South America. That's where my memory falls short, and I have nothing at hand now. I would list: a 308 at tha Fangio museum, one at the Indy museum and Julian Majzub's car recovered in South America. But the 308 chassis were Tipo C's modified. pictures show well the double set of mounting holes on the frame rails, the lower being typical for the lower-mounted engine in 308s. So it's easy to turn a Tipo C into a 308, even easier to refit a 3.8 engine, from genuine Tipo C in a modified chassis . A Tipo C chassis was also bought by Alfa in the 60s to rebuild the 12C36 displayed at Arese, using a marine engine.

4. I'm sure I have something about the Vignale 412 fate, but I don't remember. One other 412 is displayed in Mulhouse, with a swiss made body.

[dmj]

As far as I remember from Classic & Sportscar articles Bucci car was reconstructed to 316 form in Argentina and sold to Germany a few years ago, whereas coupe body was fitted to a 6C 2500 or even 1900 chassis - last thing I know it was for sale in UK 3-4 years ago.

[dretceterini]

I realize this is a very difficult subject, and that Patrick and Simon Moore have been working on it too, along with a few others...

I thought that the Bucci car was the one recently owned by Symbolic and sold a while ago. Without checking. I think Bucci may have had a 308, a 12c36 AND a 12c37, and that the 308 chassis had a 12c motor in it at one time. I remember an article in some US magazine circa 1957 that said the motor was a 12c36 4.1 liter motor bored out...

As to the Bucci sports car, without checking, I think it was 6c2500 rather than 12c based, although, if I remember correctly, it had a 12c motor (but 12c36 or 12c37?).

I find the 412 sports fascinating, as they are really 8c2900As, with 12C motors. Fusi told me 25-30 years ago that there were 4 of them. Most other sources say only 2. I know 2 of the chassis numbers are 412037 and 412038, with motors 412151 and 412152 (but as with many cars, thse may have been renumbered chassis and/or motors).

As to the number of cars built, I am not certain, but my semi-educated guesses are..

12c36= 4 cars, (but how many were "upgraded" 8c35s?)
12c37= 6 cars
16c= 2 cars; one made from a 12c37 chassis
312= 4 cars, at least one made from a 12c37

approx 14 chassis total....

another problem is the 8c35 and the 12c36 chassis are similar; were any of these cars really "upgraded" 8c35s?

...and the 8c2900 and 308 chassis are similar...but this is another "series" of cars IMO...

Stu

[David McKinney]

OK, I admit my error about Bucci's car being a 308. The car Varzi raced was said at the time to be a 312 with a 12C-37 engine, and that's what Bucci later rebuilt into the sportscar - I'll try and find my source for this statement if I get a chance in the next few hours

[Doug Nye]

I went to see Bucci some years ago in Buenos Aires and we examined the Varzi 12-cylinder car very closely. It was indeed based upon a 12C-36/37-type chassis as far as I can recall, and there was some evidence - despite considerable prevarication from owner - that the frame had at some time been lengthened, which means that at some time prior to that it had been shortened - ostensibly during the early/mid-1950s conversion to sports car form, which was denied until I offered a photo of same. The car had been quite nicely rebuilt, but it looked like a freeshly-unwrapped boiled sweet - with fresh paintwork etc virtually obliterating all trace of patina, passage of time, and charm... Still a pretty darned serious motor car, however. The 8C-35 chassis onwards were essentially very lightly skinned box-section frames and the 308s essentially featured 'pre-used' chassis frames re-engined and re-bodied.

I have some pix of the Bucci car both in period at Favorita Park - carrying 'EVITA' lettering (Bucci was a fervent Peronista) - and in the 1990s if anybody's interested. Clemar Bucci - I should add -seemed an extremely pleasant and likable chap, he was just trying terribly, terribly hard "to flog his motor..."

DCN

[dretceterini]

Dear Mr.Nye:

Yes, I would appreciate the photos. You can e-mail them to me as attachments (jpeg prefered, if possible) at dretceterini@hotmail.com

As to the chassis, the 8c35 and 12c26 are very similar (at least in design style), but the 12c37 chassis is quite different, being considerably lower. The chassis seem to be "connected" in the following groups, at least as far as design. The wheelbases within a group vary, however...

1) 8c2900, 308 and 412 sports

2) 8c35 and 12c36

3) 12c37, 16c, and 312

Stu

[David McKinney]

There are three nice photos of the handsome Bucci sportscar in the Australian magazine Sports Car World of February 1958, in an article by Ronald Hansen entitled The World’s Fastest Sportscar.
“The chassis was widened to accommodate two-seater bodywork and a body frame of steel tubing was added. The body panels are of 18-gauge aluminium...” Earlier in the article the sportscar is descirbed as being fibreglass-bodied, which is a bit confusing; there’s no mention of the chassis being shortned (or lengthened) during the exercise.
And before anyone asks, I don’t have the means to post pictures, sorry.

[Milan Fistonic]

I have just e-mailed Stu a copy of the Sports Car World article that David mentions in the previous post.

If anyone else wants a copy let me know your e-mail address.

[marhal]

Hello everybody..............................


I have a photo of the Pesatti´s car after the accident: If someone wants to see it; I will glad to send by e-mail. I hope it helps to identify the car.....................

[Jimmy Piget]

If somebody cares, I can provide a handful of chassis numbers.

Alfa Romeo 12C # 51204 : Varzi 1948, then to Clemar Bucci 1949-1950-1951-1952...

Alfa Romeo 8C-35 # 50014 : Pablo Pessatti 1947-1948 (with a 308 body), heavily crashed at B'Aires 1948, March 20 (driver killed). Sold to Alberto "Nino" Crespi 1949, and fitted with a 6C-2500 engine. Subsequent history unknown.

Alfa Romeo tipo B (= "P3") # 50009 : Adriano Malusardi; 1948-1949, heavily crashed at Mar del Plata 1949, February 17 (driver killed). Probably written off, as this chassis plate was later used (on a replica) by Rodney Felton in British historical races.

Alfa Romeo 308 # 50017 : Oscar Gálvez 1947-1948-1949-1950-1951 (also raced the latter year by Charlie Menditeguy), loaned to Manuel de Teffé 1952, then loaned or sold to Alberto Crespo 1952. I guess this is the Majzub's car.

Alfa Romeo 308, chassis number unknown : Chico Landi 1947-1948. Henrique Cassini 1949. This car seems to have been in Brazil before being bought by Landi, and raced too (without checking : by Nascimento jr). I guess this is the one displayed at Balcarce in the Fangio museum.

A 3rd 308 raced in 1947-1948, boated by its owner, French driver "Raph" (Ecurie Naphtra-Course), driven by Varzi in 1947, and shared by "Raph" and Jean-Pierre Wimille in 1948. Subsequent history unknown. I can suppose "Raph" intended to sell it either in Brazil or Argentina, since it was not available in European races anymore, but there is no sign of it in the further South American races, as far as I am informed.

(The 4th and last of the list of the 308 chassis went to Indianapolis in 1940, was modified by Weil, raced until 1951 and nowadays is on display at the Brickyard museum)

There also were some Monzas & 2900 A or B, such as # 412003 (Italo Bizio 1947-1948-1949, Héctor Niemitz 1950-1951-1952), # 2211138 (Aloísio Fontenelle 1948-1949), # 2111071 (Adolfo Schwelm 1950-1951-1952, then driven by such people as Alejandro de Tomaso & Roberto Mieres).

I think I can add a little more when checking the Gávea book by Paulo Scali.

[marhal]

Hello.............



Jimmy, I think you did a little mistake...........

The Alfa 308 Chassis number 50017 is the car actually displayed at the Fangio Museum............


In the issue# 5 (Spring 1997) of the argentinian magazine "Autos de Epoca" there is an article by Juan Pablo Vignau about the #50017. I´ll try to translate correctly some paragraphs........


"The chassis #50017 Type C 308/78 equipped with the 3800 cc engine Type 8C-35 arrived at the Montevideo´s Port at the end of 1938 owned by a Signor Bellini Caviglia............after some custom problems, the car remains in the port until the Dr. Italo de Luca bought it and sent the car to Buenos Aires, where he gave the car "to be raced", a very common deal in those days...............between may 1939 and 1942, the car was raced by Ricardo Nasi, Ricardo Carú, José Canziani....................after the war, in 1946, the car was bought by the local hero Oscar Alfredo Galvez in partnership with Julio Rosso and Ernesto Petrini.............the february 6th, 1949 was the most historic day in this car´s life, when Galvez won a race on the rain against drivers as Fangio, Ascari, Farina and Villoresi (that day the car was painted blue and yellow, the Argentina´s international colors, and with the sponsorship of "Cerveza Quilmes")..............but the heart of Galvez was on the open roads and in the Turismo Carretera category, and sold the car to the ACA -Automovil Club Argentino- which give it to Juan M. Fangio (who never raced the car)"



If you want try to contact Juan P. Vignau, send a e-mail: autosdeepoca@motorpress.com.ar I hope they answer you e-mail. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!! FORZA ALFA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


P.S: I edited the article, trying to deal with my translation limitations....................

[dretceterini]

Some further stuff:

The chassis numbers I have for the 412 sports (8c2900A chassis with 12c motor)seem to be 412037 and 412038, with motors 412151 and 412152. Strange thing is that the Tipo 412 sports that was raced by Daetweiler and is now in Mulhouse (rebodied) is (according to John DeBoers "etceterini register) chassis 412158! Further evidence of 3, and maybe 4 tipo 412 sports (Fusi himself told me there were 4)

Chassis 50012 appears to have been 8c35, but at one time there was a 12c36 (4.1 liter) motor in it; number 51203.

Motor 51204 appears to me to be the 12c36 motor that was in the Bucci car, but was bored to 4.6 liters.


The following is from John DeBoer:

Alfa Corse 77 appears to be Tipo 308 52114, but is that the chassis or motor number?
Alfa Corse 78 appears to be Tipo 308 50017, again, chassis or motor number?
Alfa Corse 79 appears to be Tipo 308 422022 (which to me looks like an 8c2900B or Tipo 308 motor number)....

It looks like numbers in the series 412xxx are 8c2900A motors, and motors in the series 422xxx are either 8c2900B or Tipo 308 motor numbers..

It appears to me that there were 6 8c35 chassis, 50011 thru 50017.

Maybe the original chassis numbering system was thus (speculation):

50001 thru 50010 P3
50011 thru 50017 8c35
51xxx thru 51xxx Tipo 308
412001 thru 412009 8c2900A (some chassis later renumbered)
412001 thru 412042 8c2900B (except for 412037 and 412038)
412043 the whale 8c2900B
412037 and 412038 8c2900 chassis that were renumbered to Tipo 412 sports

5001 thru 50xx SF chassis numberting system for P3
50011 thru 50017 SF chassis numbering system for Tipo 8c35

This is getting more confusing as I go along. Does someone else want to take this further along? Patrick Italinano? Simon Moore?

I am currently woking on a MUCH more complicated (but similar) project reagrding small displacement Italian sports racers; what they were built as, and what they became through their history of owners...and I can only do so much...

PS: as to the Pesatti car, it appears to me that at the time of the crash, the car had either a 6c2300, 6c2300B, or 6c2500 marine motor in it! The original Tipo 308 motor in the car seems to have been "transfered" to the Galvez Tipo 308, circa Feb.1949..

Stu

[Patrick Italiano]

Hello,

the thread is growing well!

First, I would like to have a copy of:
- the Sports Cars World article about Bucci's sports car (thanks in advance, Milan)
- Doug Nye's pictures of Bucci's 12C wearing "EVITA" (thanks as well!)

About the sports car, I have a south american testimony giving even a 6C2500 chassis number for the sports car but, on the other end, Moore has documents which could identify it as the 12C modified, but I never went deep enough into that issue. There's some confusion somewhere.

About Stu's "semi-educated guesses":

I don't remember the Tipo C number of cars built, but Fusi is reliable on that.
- 12C36 are Tipo C chassis formerly fitted with 8Cs.
- 308s are the same further modified to lower the engine, radiator, seat, etc. So, 308s are NOT 8C2900 chassis, even if two 1938 Mille Miglia Spiders were identified as 308s, even in Alfa Corse and on their plates. This should only refer to the engine specs.
- 12C37s have a completely new chassis. 4 have been made, but only two were assembled in 1937 (the car had poor handling, and the forecast 3+1spare for the Italian GP were not assembled, and only 2 cars: 1 for Guidotti + 1 spare were brought to the track)
- All 312s were made from the 12C37 parts, but were modified between the Tripoli and the German GP.
- At Tripoli, the 316 was built into a 308 chassis, while both 316s entered in the Italian Gp, in september, were built into 12C37 chassis. It's not clear, anyway, whether those were actual 1937 or similar new constructions.

There's a key info about the 308/316 chassis some of you may have. At the 1938 German GP, three 308s take the start:
#28 Taruffi
#30 Ghersi
#42 Balestrero

The first two are Scuderia Torino entries, the latest is independent, or possibly Alfa Corse.
The point is that some pictures, one in Chris Nixon's book, show an Alfa Corse 308 during practice wearing a "T". The picture shows "T", "28" and "42" lined up in the pits. The question is whether the "T" car was borrowed to Scuderia Torino for Ghersi to race, or there was a fourth, undocumented 308?

Pesatti's car was either a 8C25 or a 308. Unfortunately, the pictures of the car after the crash doesn't show well the engine mountings, which would help. At the time, Pesatti had shortened the chassis to cope with the much lower input of the 6C2500 aspirated engine he had in it. It was indeed a marine version.

[Patrick Italiano]

Stu, I discovered your latest post when I submitted mine, so a little addition:

Originally posted by dretceterini
Some further stuff:

The chassis numbers I have for the 412 sports (8c2900A chassis with 12c motor)seem to be 412037 and 412038, with motors 412151 and 412152. Strange thing is that the Tipo 412 sports that was raced by Daetweiler and is now in Mulhouse (rebodied) is (according to John DeBoers "etceterini register) chassis 412158! Further evidence of 3, and maybe 4 tipo 412 sports (Fusi himself told me there were 4)

412037 and 412038 were Moore's guesses back in 1986. He changed his mind, but the issue is still not cleared. I never had yet the occasion to check myself Mulhouse's car chassis number.

Motor 51204 appears to me to be the 12c36 motor that was in the Bucci car, but was bored to 4.6 liters.

I think it's actually a 12C37. It surely has the twin blowers, but decisive info would be the main bearings type.

It looks like numbers in the series 412xxx are 8c2900A motors, and motors in the series 422xxx are either 8c2900B or Tipo 308 motor numbers..

I don't think so. Moore's "Immortal 2.9" remains the standard source about that. If I recall well 412xxx is chassis numbering, while 422xxx refers to engines.

It appears to me that there were 6 8c35 chassis, 50011 thru 50017.

Yes, and also 308's numbers for 4 of them

[dretceterini]

Patrick:

Thanks! You should get together with Simon Moore and get a PROPER Alfa GP car book out. I'm too busy with "etceterini" stuff, but am happy to help as much as I can...(see the "what should we call them thread I just started)

BTW, and news anyone has heard recently on a "reisssue" of the 8c2900 book with updates? Mal Harris (Alfa 6c2500 guy and the publisher of the 8c2900 and 8c2300 book) never answers my letters..The 8c2900 book is now going for around $300 US...and we need a 6c2300/6c2300B book; and an update of 6c2500 info (even though Anselmi's book is great), and a new 1900 book (Peter Marshall, are you listening), and...and..and...

Stu

[Patrick Italiano]

Stu,

The GP cars book is a Simon's project. It won't come out before some years, he said. I know a few thigs on the subject, but I'm not up to Simon's knowledge...

If ever an update of the 2.9 book is issued, it will probably be even after the GP cars'

We also tend to go for strange projects: I'm now researching quite successfully on... Alfa Romeo trolleybusses! Any input, somebody out there?

[dretceterini]

Negri does an Italian bus book and some Italian truck books, but little on trollies.
www.negri.it is their web site...

A few years ago, someone was making scale limited series models of Italian trolly buses, but I don't remember who it was...

Stu

[Geza Sury]

I remember I read an article somewhere about the unknown history of the 308 in Argentina, but finally I found out a here! You can find it a Dennis David's site! Hope that helps!

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by Geza Sury
I remember I read an article somewhere about the unknown history of the 308 in Argentina, but finally I found out a here! You can find it a Dennis David's site! Hope that helps!

Yep, thanks. Estanislao indeed published a more comprehensive history of south American Alfa GP cars years ago, but there's still much blur around some steps....

One point anyway: don't trust him about Tripoli 1938 : both Siena and Sommer drove 312s, not 308s. Actually, Biondetti started and was DNF in a 308 after his practiced 316 had proved unfit for the race.

[marhal]

Hello................

I read the Estanislao Iacona´s article about the 308 in Argentina at Dennis David´s page. It´s very similar (almost identical) to the one I translated and resumed. In Argentina, the spares were very few, then it´s possible that the parts of one Alfa went to another. For example, the Alfa P3 which Adriano Malusardi lost his life at Mar del Plata in 1949.........their previous owner was Juan Galvez (Oscar´s younger brother). That P3 had the double propshaft, which Juan Galvez changed by Ford ´35 transmission.........................in another magazine I found that the Pesatti´s Alfa marine engine was made to be raced in the "Mecánica Nacional" category (cars made by argentinian craftmen with various components like the Fangio´s Volpi Chevrolet). For this reason is sure that Pesatti changed some Alfa original parts by others.....................

[dretceterini]

I think the motor in the Pessati car when he crashed was either an Alfa 6c2300, 2300B, or 2500 marine engine. From the grainy photocopy I have, it appears that it has 2 carbs...

Stu

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I think the motor in the Pessati car when he crashed was either an Alfa 6c2300, 2300B, or 2500 marine engine. From the grainy photocopy I have, it appears that it has 2 carbs...

Stu

I had the occasion to look at the Peastti's accident pictures close, and sent my conclusions to a friend one year ago. Here's my own quote

I conclude that it's a TipoC or 308 chassis, with a post war 6C2500 engine.
The chassis is identified through the position of the steering box, the lack of the gearbox attached to the bellhousing behind the engine, and the side rail's shape.
Indeed, the cam covers say 6C, chain driven camshaft since the bulges are at the front end. Post war 2500 because of the hexagonal screws in the block's water jackets. You can see at the bottom the oil line to the main bearings (I first believed it was the cranckcase split), to be compared with pics of the 2500 engines in any book, for instance Tabucchi's. Also the rear part of the engine, where it bolts to the bellhousing, is typical.
The side we see is the intake one. I expect, if the engine was aspirated, it would at least have featured the 3 carburettors of the SS version. It doesn't and the manifold looks like nothing known. I then guess it could have been supercharged.

[dretceterini]

The 6c2300, 6c2300B and 6c2500 marine engines had only 2 carbs. It is REAALY difficult to see from the xerox I have, but it looks to me the motor has 2 carbs..

Stu

[Yorgos]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick Italiano

..................
We also tend to go for strange projects: I'm now researching quite successfully on... Alfa Romeo trolleybusses! Any input, somebody out there?
..............................

They were circulating in Athens thru the mid '70s, painted in mustard/ochre yellow. Then they were scrapped in favor of some Soviet conraptions which are still around. Alfa troleybuses are visible in old Greek films.
If you come across any documentaries on the November 1973 student uprising in Athens you will see a lot of them as they were the standard model of trolleybus used here.

Sorry,I dont have any photos.

Regards
Yorgos

[Jimmy Piget]

Update for my previous chassis number message, with years of racing in South America

308 #50017 — Marhal is right : this is the one owned by Juan Manuel Fangio who loaned it for 2 Brazilian races to Manuel de Teffé in 1952 (and allegedly practised the car himself), and to Alberto Crespo in Argentina same year.

308 (Landi's) — Was perhaps the one raced in Brazil 1938 by Tadini ??? Chico Landi shared it with Casini late 1948 before selling it to him. Late 1949, it was loaned to Antonio Fernandez who crashed it heavily (he lost a leg in the incident). Later (circa 1956) Casini rebuilt the car onto a road one, fitting a Cadillac engine
This is allegedly the Majzub's car (via Colin Crabbe in the '1970s ?)

308 (Raph's) — Probably sold in Brazil 1948, since a different 308 than both previous ones was raced in 1949 by a Mr Jaime Neves.

"P3" 50009, Malusardi's — raced by Juan Gálvez 1947-1948.

"P3" 50014, Pessatti's — previously raced by Carlos Arzani 1937, Nascimento júnior 1939-1940, Oldemar Ramos 1940-1941. Pessatti bought it late 1942.
Subsequently, after the fatal crash, it was sold to a Mr Crespi, but definitely not "Nino" Crespi (who died racing in 1934 !!!)

"P3" 50013 — Manuel de Teffé 1937. Fernando Sarmento 1937. Benedicto Lopes 1938. Landi 1939. Luiz de Morais 1940. Landi 1941. Pessatti 1941. Sold to Oldemar Ramos late 1942, who raced it 1946. Anuar de Goes 1946, 1947. Antonio Parra 1947 to 1951. João Scaffidi 1952. Subsequent history unknown.

"P3", chassis unknown — Nascimento jr 1938-1939. Geraldo Avelar 1940-1941. Oldemar Ramos 1942. Back to Avelar 1946-1947. Hélio Ramos 1947. Casini 1948. Subsequent history unknown.

"Monza" 8C # 2311213 — Brought by the wonderful "Hellé-Nice" in 1936, who crashed it heavily in a contact with Manuel de Teffé. Repaired and raced by Benedicto Lopes 1937. To Oldemar Ramos 1939, Nasimento jr 1940 & Rubem Abrunhosa 1941, but only tested. This car was sold in an aunction in the USA in the late '1990s.

412003 — Raced by Pintacuda in Brazil 1936. Sold to Ricardo Carú who raced it 1937. To Domingo Ochoteco 1940. After War to Bizio & Niemitz.

412004 — Raced by Marinoni in Brazil 1936, and returned to Europe.

Forgot something ?

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by Jimmy Piget
Update for my previous chassis number message, with years of racing in South America
[...]
"P3" 50014, Pessatti's ? previously raced by Carlos Arzani 1937, Nascimento júnior 1939-1940, Oldemar Ramos 1940-1941. Pessatti bought it late 1942.
Subsequently, after the fatal crash, it was sold to a Mr Crespi, but definitely not "Nino" Crespi (who died racing in 1934 !!!)

This car is not a P3, it's either a Tipo C or a 308, which makes no difference about chassis number. 308s still wore "Tipo C" as type on their identification plate.

"P3" 50013 ? Manuel de Teffé 1937. Fernando Sarmento 1937. Benedicto Lopes 1938. Landi 1939. Luiz de Morais 1940. Landi 1941. Pessatti 1941. Sold to Oldemar Ramos late 1942, who raced it 1946. Anuar de Goes 1946, 1947. Antonio Parra 1947 to 1951. João Scaffidi 1952. Subsequent history unknown.

500013 should also be an 8C35 (Tipo C), not a P3. I have no records at hands. Either it's a P3 with a lower number, or it's the right number and it's a Tipo C. See Stu' and my message above.

[Jimmy Piget]

Patrick Italiano is right : 50014 is not a "P3" but a 8C-35 ; it was fitted with a 308 body when raced by Pessatti (and perhaps earlier).

De Teffé's "P3" was definitely not 50013 (a 8C-35 hillclimbed by Dennis Poore in Britain after the war) — my fingers are too bigger when I use my computer and very often choose to select 2 characters instead of one !
The actual chassis number was certainly 5001, ex-Pintacuda (built in 1932).

When looking at the "P3" chassis list in the Peter Hull book on Alfa Romeo, I really wonder which was the Nascimento/Avelar/Ramos/Ramos/Casini one.
5002 and 50003 were racing in Australia in the '40-'50s ; 5006 (Powys-Lybbe), 50005 (Salvadori, later to NZ) and 50006 (Hutchison) racing in Great Britain) ; 5003 was tuned into the Multi-Union ; 50002 and 50004 racing in the USA ; 5004 was wrecked off in the Guy Moll fatal crash ; and 50007 tuned in 1947 into a sports/road car…
That leaves 5005, 50001 and 50008 as possible Brazilian chassis, as Peter Hull did not inform more on these (except that 50001 was found engineless in 1955 in the USA and that 50008 was supposed to have laid in Bangladesh in the '60s).
Do Patrick Italiano or someone else knows more ?

[marhal]

Hello............


I found the two famous photos of Pesatti´s car in the web:
http://www.jmfangio....194833otono.htm

I hope that will be useful for everybody.............................

[dretceterini]

I believe that the early P3s (before the coachwork changes) all had 4 digit numbers. The cars of the "new" body style; no matter if the were all new cars, or an "upgrade" of the older cars, had 5 digit numbers. I believe that there were really only 6 "first series" P3s.

Some of the P3s were then "upgraded" to 8c35 status, although the chassis of a P3 and an 8c35 is not exactly the same. Some of the 8c35s were the even further "upgraded" to 12c36s.

The 12c37s, 16cs and 312s have a totally different chassis, which is lower.

I very much remember the one of the 12c motors in South America was a 12c36 4.1 liter motor. There was an article in some obscure US magazine 40 years ago, where it said THIS motor was rebuilt and enlarged to 4.6 liters! I'm trying to find the photo and article...

50011 thru 50015 were numbers used on 8c35s, but I don't know how many of these (if any) were "upgrades" of 1st or 2nd series P3s.

As to 50016 and 50017, I'm not sure what they started out as!

As to the 8c2900s (and 308s?), some motors WERE numbered 412xxx and NOT 422xxx. The chassis were all numbered 412xxx (including the 412 sports cars and the "whale")

Stu

[David McKinney]

The upgraded first-series P3s retained their four-digit numbers; the cars from 50001 on were all new. Most can be traced onwards, so cannot have been upgraded to 8C-35s

[Doug Nye]

The Tipo B and 8C-35 frames were utterly different - the 8C-35 using exceptionally thin-walled box-section fabricated chassis rails like slender lightweight monocoque pieces all on their own. The Tipo B was channel section with welded-in closure - an altogether more primitive and hefty deal.

DCN

[dretceterini]

In regard to Tipo B (P3s), I meant upgraded to 8c35s status in differnt ways; yes, the chassis (especially the main components) were substantially different, but I think some chassis components were common to these 2 types.

As to 8c35 and 12c36, the chassis ARE virtually identical, are they not?

How many Tipo Bs (P3) wer there in total; including the 2nd versions? Do we know with some real certainty?

How about 8c35s and 8c36s; how many were "upgrades"

Thanks,
Stu

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by dretceterini
In regard to Tipo B (P3s), I meant upgraded to 8c35s status in differnt ways; yes, the chassis (especially the main components) were substantially different, but I think some chassis components were common to these 2 types.

Hardly a single one, sorry, Stu... Not suspensions, nor transmission, nor engine, nor frame, nor.... Maybe the brakes? :

As to 8c35 and 12c36, the chassis ARE virtually identical, are they not?

The Tipo C chassis was designed from the beginning to host either the in-line-8 or the V-12. So I seem to recall that they were the actual same ones. But, I had a look in Fusi for something else, and he lists 6 built for each model. I think it's an inaccuracy not to have precisated in his book they were actually the same. In onther chapters, sometimes he does (as for instance about 312s and 316s being made from 12C37s, but in some other cases, the same lack of perecision is evident. But hey, he did all that job first!

How many Tipo Bs (P3) wer there in total; including the 2nd versions? Do we know with some real certainty?

Moore is trying to identify each of them, the actual number is pretty known. There's a list in Hull's profile booklet. Can't remember without it at hand

[Jimmy Piget]

There is a list of the "P3", chassis by chassis, in the book "Alfa Romeo history" by Peter Hull & Roy Slater (Transport Bookman, 1982)

It gives 6 copies for the first serie (1932), numbered 5001 to 5006
and 9 for the second serie (1934), numbered 50001 to 50009

[Jimmy Piget]

BTW, what were (50017 Landi/Majzub apart) the 308 chassis numbers ?

[dretceterini]

All I have shows the following for Tipo 308s

?? = 50016

AC 77= 52114 motor 422022

AC 78= 50017 Arzani, De Luca, Galvez with 3.8 liter motor

AC79= 422022 motor 422024 Llewellyn, Mazjub (with 3.2 liter motor)

All from John DeBoer's "etceterini" register, circa 1996


Stu


AC= Alfa Corse Numbers, following in the tradition of SF (Scuderia Ferrari) numbers

[O Volante]

... just another piece in the Brazilian Alfa puzzle: have a look on

this

Third picture looks like a P3 Alfa, with a non-standard engine, probably a V8 - as required for "Mecánica Nacional" races - doesn't it? Anybody with more info about the car and driver?

[dretceterini]

I don't know anything about the car, but in the 2nd picture there is an Alfa 6c2500 competition car with a body similar to the 1938 MM winning Alfa 8c2900B, and I'd like to know whta the car on the far left of that picture is..

Stu