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Arnold Glass and his BRM P48


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#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2002 - 12:22

I've hit a real puzzle in the BRM chassis register and I'm hoping some of my antipodean friends can help.

Arnold Glass bought a 2.5-litre BRM P48 for 1961 but wrecked it in its first race, at Mallala in August 1961. The F1 Register Tasman book omits this race but I believe it was held on 19 Aug 1961. Can anyone confirm that? Was it a Gold Star round?

He then bought a second P48 and later fitted this with the ex-Scarab Buick V8 engine (a 3.9-litre?) in time for the Nov 1962 Aussie GP. But then the car vanishes again - it did not appear in the 1963 Internationals - and is not seen again until it appears in the UK at the beginning of 1964 with a Ford V8 engine and driven Greg Wood. This may or may not be the same car that Joe Steele and John Allison had in the mid-1960's in the UK. I suspect they were different cars but I'm baffled.

Can anyone help?

Allen

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#2 Brian Lear

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Posted 09 June 2002 - 13:03

Allen
To answer the first part of your question, I offer the following information.
The meeting that "Trinkets" crashed the BRM was the opening meeting of
the Mallala circuit in South Australia run on 19/20 August 1961
According to Australian Motor Sports (October 1961 p432).......
"An unwelcome sensation marked the meeting when Glass all but wrote
the new BRM off during an un-scheduled practice session on the friday
morning....." which would make the date 18th August.
It was not a Gold Star round, but most of the "names" were there as the
AGP was scheduled at the same circuit later in the year.
I am of the opinion that the second BRM is the one later owned by
Steele and Allison in Australia which later went to the UK.
If no one else throws any light on the second BRM I wll dig a little
further.
Brian Lear

#3 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2002 - 13:20

Brian

Thanks for these dates and the report.

There is another mystery around where it went later. Steele and Allison (according to Blanden's book) had the P48 in 1964 but, on almost exactly the same day they debut their car in Aus, Greg Wood races an "ex-Glass" 2.5-litre BRM at Rufforth in the frozen north of England.

Allen

#4 Barry Lake

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Posted 09 June 2002 - 19:06

I remember there always seemed to be considerable mystery about the history of the Glass BRMs. I was under the impression someone had sorted it out somewhere along the line.

I don't know how many BRM engines Arnold had, but one of them finished up in a midget speedcar - in an old car with a not really competitive driver - and was floating around Sydney speedways for many years afterwards. It made only infrequent and unsuccessful appearances.

My memory is trying to tell me there was another - better financed and better driven (but still unsuccessful) - Midget speedcar later, but I might be confusing myself with the couple of Climax engined cars that ran in the 1960s (by which time I was too busy with road racing to have time to be involved in speedway).

#5 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 June 2002 - 19:28

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I remember there always seemed to be considerable mystery about the history of the Glass BRMs. I was under the impression someone had sorted it out somewhere along the line...

Maybe they did but it's not holding together for me at the moment. The widely accepted identification of Glass's car as 482 may hinge on an advert by Channel Island hillclimber Rikki Chadney in Autosport 5 Aug 1971 in which he refers to his car as "ch no 48/2". As that car appeared to be ex-Glass, someone may have decided that meant Glass's car was 482.

The problem is that the Chadney car car be traced back to one Greg Wood ("A. G. Wood") racing his "recently acquired 2.5-litre BRM" at Rufforth on 28 Mar 1964, winning the handicap race (see Motor 4 Apr 1964 and Autosport 3 Apr 1964 p466.) However, John Blanden's "Historic Racing Cars in Australia", says that Glass advertised the car and engines in July 1963 and that the P48 less engine was bought by Steele and Allison who fitted a Ford V8 and raced it at Mallala on 30 March 1964, at almost exactly the same moment Wood was racing at Rufforth on the other side of the planet. From Wood, this car went via Colin Crabbe to Chadney.

Meanwhile Steele brought his car to the UK in early 1967 and advertised it in 1968. Then it vanishes.

So I'm struggling to fit these pieces together. All clues, no matter how small they might seem, would be very welcome.

Allen

#6 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 09 June 2002 - 20:01

The BRM came to New Zealand for the 1963 International series but Glass did not as he had been injured in a water skiing accident. The car sat in Ross Jensen's showroom until February 2 when Jensen ran it at a meeting at Pukekohe. He won the 10 lap feature event. Vercoe listed the chassis number as P48-4.

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 10 June 2002 - 06:02

Australian reports at the time suggested the first Glass car was 485, and the other 482, which he raced with a BRM engine for a while before fitting the Scarab-Buick.
I wonder if the reference to the Wood car as "48/2" means it was one of the P48 MkII cars which, IIRC, were 486 and 487?

#8 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 June 2002 - 06:50

Originally posted by David McKinney
Australian reports at the time suggested the first Glass car was 485, and the other 482, which he raced with a BRM engine for a while before fitting the Scarab-Buick.

That matches Doug's Autosport article from 1982 which was my starting point. Thanks for reinforcing that identification.

Originally posted by David McKinney
I wonder if the reference to the Wood car as "48/2" means it was one of the P48 MkII cars which, IIRC, were 486 and 487?

What an excellent idea! I rechecked the advert and it definitely says chassis number 48/2 but that could still be the case. I think the only original Mk II was 487 but 484 was later rebuilt to Mk II spec for Intercontinental. So if Chadney did mean P48 Mk II, then it means he might have had the ex-Marsh/Wilson 484 - which makes sense.

Thanks again David - I knew you'd be able to help.

Allen

#9 Brian Lear

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Posted 10 June 2002 - 12:12

Allen
Having refreshed my memory of the relevant pages of the Blanden book
and a re-read of my magazines of the period, I offer the following comments.

I agree basically with Blandens details of its Australian history, however I
have unearthed a number of additional dates which will show that the
"Wood" car is a different car to the "Allison/Steele" car.
Allison and Steele purchased the car- less engine - from Glass around
October 1963. They fitted a Ford V8 (supercharged I believe) engine and
I have found the following competition dates
Mallala - 30/3/64
Mallala - 15/6/64
Mallala - 12/10/64
Mallala - 28/12/64
I have found no further references to the car or Steele and Allison up until
the end of 1967.

A couple of further points......
In the Australian Motor Sports report of the Glass/Mallala accident it states
".......when Glass braked for Woodroofe, the car spun all over the road and
slammed into a tree. The car took it across the engine compartment, and
though they attempted a rebuild before the meeting, nothing became of it..."
This infers that the car was not too badly damaged. The photo of the crashed
car in the Blanden book, while only showing the car from the cockpit forward.
shows no damage to the front of the car.
Another interesting comment in the "gossip" section of the same magazine
states "Arnold Glass....... received much publicity following a spectacular
accident involving a tree and his new (on loan) BRM....."
I will leave the interpretation of this to others.

My guess it that the Wood car is the repaired Mallala crash car.

I will try and post the advert for the BRM Scarab car and engines sale

#10 Barry Lake

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Posted 10 June 2002 - 13:54

Brian

You are ringing more bells all the time! I know I have read this somewhere, and I am guessing Graham Howard knows the story. Your theory sounds good. I'm thinking that crashed car went back to BRM and never returned to Australia. Arnold then ran the other car and later put the Buick into it, as I remember it. But it's all more than a bit hazy. A lot of the confusion comes from the fact that most people at the time didn't realise Arnold had two of the cars - it was thought that both were one and the same.

But I know I have read an explanation of it all somewhere (and not in Blanden's book - much more recently than that).

#11 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 June 2002 - 17:19

This is excellent stuff!

So we now have the Steele car tracked up to the end of 1964 and I can add that it was mentioned in Steele's hands in the UK in early May 1967 and was later advertised by Steele from June to November 1968. So that leaves 1965 and 1966 unknown but we can safely assume it was the same car.

Wood's car may have been the repaired 485 or it could be the ex-hillclimb 484. If 485 was repaired, then it has now vanished again. I might have to dig into Doug's archive of BRM technical meeting minutes to see if there is any mention of what happened to 485 after it was returned to the UK. That might also be the right source to understand the fascinating "on loan" reference.

It would be great to find out if someone else has already worked this through.

Allen

#12 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 00:11

There is paperwork in the files describing the arrival of Glass's bent frame from Australia. A letter is written to him saying that it would be less expensive to replace than to repair, he accepts and the second car is despatched. There is NO record of the bent frame being scrapped - but neither is there a written record of it having been repaired and sold, either by BRM at Bourne in England - or by Glass from Australia. I am trying to contact Trinkets in Monte Carlo right now, but I'm up to my ears in finalising Rover-BRM gas turbine and four-wheel drive Project 67 embuggerances first...

Thanks Allen and everyone - what a fantastic research asset you all are.

DCN

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 05:17

Spanner in the works time -
I have finally found my reference to the Wood BRM - I have it as c/no 572!
AFAIK, the P57s were little more than 48s with four-cylinder Climax engines - could 572 have even started life as a P48?

#14 ensign14

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 19:02

Is Arnold Glass the chap who had a few races in the British F1 series in the early 80s?

#15 David McKinney

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 21:02

Yup - same one
I promise Aurora series spectators he was a better driver in the 60s than you saw in the McLaren. But still not one of the Greats

#16 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 21:10

ensign14 - yes that's the man.

David - what an excellent spanner you threw in. I hadn't thought that this could be a P57 and when I check my notes on P57s (well actually just one note!) it said that Colin Crabbe advertised a P57 in 1969.

Autosport 6 Jun 1969 p2
Colin Crabbe's Formula 5000 BRM-Ford H16 chassis P83/01 is now for sale ... Colin also has another two BRM chassis, both for sale: P83/03 and a 1961 P57 chassis with a 4.7-litre Ford V8 engine.

Add that to:

Motoring News 19 Sep 1968 p20
Crabbe has been driving the ex-Greg Wood BRM-Ford V8

and a couple of references in which Chadney's car is referred to as ex-Wood ("Rikki Chadney’s BRM (the car in which Gregg Wood fitted a 4.7 Ford)" in August 1969 and an advert that same month where Chadney says it was "ex-Gregg Wood") and we seem to have something.

If this car is 572, then it went to Jack Lewis in 1962 and then returned to the factory within a couple of months. Then BRM used it in the Springbok series for Johnstone at the end of 1962 and then it vanishes. Gregg Wood first races his car in March 1964. It all sounds quite plausible.

Also, I managed to prove fairly conclusively that it wasn't the Wilson car when I found Wilson winning his class in old 484 at Llandow in May 1965 (Autosport 29 May 1965 p834) and taking third in class a month earlier (30 Apr 1965 p662).

The only real problem would be that Wood's car was reported to be a 2.5-litre BRM when Wood first drove it. Could BRM have fitted an old P25/P48 engine to the car for sale? I guess that would also be somewhere in those technical minutes for early 1964. Then the car acquired a Ford V8 at some stage. David - do you know when that was?

Allen

#17 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 21:59

This is extremely kind of all you blokes to wrestle this topic so energetically. One thing I can assure you of is that, absolutely REGARDLESS of what the Paul Sheldon - Duncan Rabagliati Formula 1 Register listings infer, the P48 and the P57 BRM chassis are VERY different animals.

The only thing they really featured in common was that the poor little P57 was saddled with P48-sized rubber bag tanks as an economy measure to save the price of manufacturing new master moulds for smaller bags. Budget savings were invested - rightly - in the different again P578 V8 tube-frame chassis.

While seven P48s - of varying design - were constructed - there were only three P57s and - as I explained in a mammoth brain-ache session with Allen the other night - in effect only three P578s at any one time - although chassis numbers for them run '5781' to '5785' and one number was used twice (or was it three times, Alllen).

I am so chuffed I started all this....or did I???? :confused:

DCN

#18 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 June 2002 - 23:23

Originally posted by Doug Nye
This is extremely kind of all you blokes to wrestle this topic so energetically. One thing I can assure you of is that, absolutely REGARDLESS of what the Paul Sheldon - Duncan Rabagliati Formula 1 Register listings infer, the P48 and the P57 BRM chassis are VERY different animals.


But how different was the so-called P48 Mk 2 (which I assume refers to the car that appeared very briefly at he end of 1960) from the P57?

#19 David McKinney

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 05:33

I haven't got time to go into this any further at the moment (but be patient!)
I always thought however that the model sequence went P48 > P48 Mk2 > P57 > P578. In other words the V8 P57s were different cars, with different chassis numbers, from the four-cylinder P57s
I will delve further...

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#20 Roger Clark

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 06:15

THat's what i thought too David, but the P48 Mk2, also known as the P49, was essentially the same desing as the P57. I also thought that some P48 were converted to P57 specification for Intercontinental racing in 1961.

#21 Doug Nye

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 10:34

No, not really....although the P48 Mark II indeed evolved into the P57-Climax cars there were critical differences between the two types of chassis frame.

And if by 'V8 P57s' Dave means the only two such cars that were in reality built - or converted - for Tony Marsh and Jack Lewis in 1962, no their original 1961 chassis serials were not changed at all.

Permit me...

P48 -

1959-1960 P48 basic form - 3 brakes, 1 on each front hub, plus 'bacon-slicer' on back of gearbox. Strut-type rear suspension with high rear frame to provide top spring/damper abutments. 1.5-inch 17SWG tube bottom chassis rails, 1.25-inch 17SWG top chassis rails, 1.25-inch 17SWG diagonals in side bays.

P48 Mark II -

1960-61 ICF P48 Mark II - 4 brakes, 1 on each hub both front and rear, double wishbone rear suspension, revised lowered-level rear frame - tubed as above.

P57 -

1961 F1 (Climax-engined) P57 - 4-brakes, all wishbone suspension etc, similar size top and bottom chassis rails to P48s but with rear frame sections around engine bay totally different from P48 'Mark I' and Mark II form, and with 1.0-inch 17SWG diagonals in this area - plus seatback bulkhead frame reclined more steeply than either P48.

'P57 V8' (Project 58 was the gearbox adaptor for same) -

P57 with rear end modified for V8 engine (Marsh and Lewis 1962) - completely new rear frame welded on behind seat-back bulkhead with detachable top tubes to allow engine installation and removal.

P578 (1962 World Champion car) -

P578 - 4 brakes, all-wizzer susp. of course - seatback bulkhead frame even more steeply reclined than in P57 - bottom frame rails only 1.25-inch 18-gauge tube-wall (about as thick as a razor blade) tube - top frame rails 1-inch 18SWG, diagonals in mainly 1.0-inch 18SWG tube...a very, very, lightweight structure even by the standards of the time.

These are distinctively different cars and I repeat - do not be mislead by past attribution of P48/57 classifications - really there was no such animal

P49? - very interesting...

Incidentally, when Tony Rudd designed the monocoque-chassised 1 1/2-litre V8 - the P61 then P261 - he enthused to young team maths boffin Mike Pilbeam - "It will fit inside a Lotus 25"... which gives a vivid picture of ithat those cars' tiny cross-sectional size.

DCN

#22 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 12:50

Is this a good time to confess that until three weeks ago I couldn't have told you whether a P48 was front-engined or rear-engined? Until Doug said those magic words: "can you do the pre-66 cars as well?".

I still have three questions on this Wood/Crabbe/Chadney car:

1. Doug - as the P48 and P57 are sufficiently different, can you be sure that the Spencer Flack P57 that you inspected recently is definitely a P57 and not a P48? It's Flack who appears to own the ex-Wood/Crabbe/Chadney car now.

2. If I could dig out some pictures of Wood or Crabbe or Chadney driving said car, would be possible to positively identify it as a P57 and not a P48?

3. Could a 2.5-litre engine have been put into 572 when it was sold to Wood (or whoever may have owned it before Wood?). Would it fit? Are BRM likely to have done such a thing? Or were Motoring News mistaken when they called it a 2.5-litre BRM? I guess we can be confident it didn't have a P56 V8 as early as 1964 so I wonder what engine Wood had.

Allen

#23 Doug Nye

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 13:35

Nope - we measured almost every tube on the Flack chassis - it's definitely a P57 with the V8 engine bay mod and the only available candidate for that baby is the Lewis car 'cos the Marsh car survives and the other P57 was cut in half and transmogrified into the two iterations of Rover-BRM.

I'm seeking Greg Wood right now - 14 hundred hours and 32 minutes p.m. o'clock. March on mon brave!

DCN

#24 David McKinney

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 13:39

My use of the term 'P57 V8' was sloppy - I was trying to differentiate the 578 series from the 57s- forgetting about the re-engined P57s. Grrr!

#25 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 15:41

I notice everyone is studiously ignoring my question about the 2.5-litre engine but I will press on regardless...

Here is some information sent by email by Brian Lear:

Allen
Further to my recent postings on TNF re the Arnold Glass BRM - Scarab, I have attempted to post the ad to the forum, but as a computer dummy all my attempts have failed.

In desperation I have sent it to you as I think you were posting DCNs pictures before he became computer literate. If you think it relevant, could you post it on my behalf For your records the ad appeared in Australian Motor Sports - July 1963.
brmscarabad.jpg

Also for your records, my sources for the listed dates are
Mallala 30/3/64 - I can find no mention in the reports of this meeting, but I wouldnt argue with John Blanden - he was probably there! Besides the initial appearance was probably inauspicious. The 4th placing in the South Australian Road Racing Championships was at the 15/6/64 meeting.
Mallala 15/6/64 - Racing Car News July 64 p29
Mallala 12/10/64 - Racing Car News November 64 p18. NOTE I have made a stuff-up with this date. I posted 12/11/64 on TNF. I will try and edit this.
Mallala 28/12/64 - Racing Car News February 65 p32
The reports above that mention a christian name refer to the driver as John Allison.

Regards and best wishes from down-under

Brian Lear

Many thanks Brian.

Allen

#26 Doug Nye

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Posted 12 June 2002 - 21:44

P25 engine would - just about - fit in the rear of a P57 but would need some tucking and trimming to fit the magneto etc, or the rear end of the frame cut about. The rear end of the Flack frame is as per BRM's conversion drawing for the V8 but - an interesting but - with 'odd' engine mounts inserted...perhaps for a Ford V8 which might, just, have squeezed its heads down upon the low-slung top engine bay rails. I have spoken with Colin Crabbe and he denies all knowledge of EVER having had a Ford V8-engined tube-frame early rear-engined BRM, much less any knowledge of a Greg Wood or a Ricky Chadney from the Channel Islands. He has a misty memory of "buying two old BRMs without engines from BRM and selling them to Wheatcroft". But then he needed reassurance of whether he had owned one H16 BRM chassis or two. Time flies. Contemporary magazine reports? "Ah now they've plainly made a mistake there - confused the Formula 5000 H16-Ford with an early car...".

Oh,and Jacky Epstein recalls that he sold his V8 car plus a part-restored C-Type Jaguar to "a garage in Liverpool which turned out to be Littlewoods the pools people...Nigel Moores"...

DCN

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 June 2002 - 06:12

Just for reference... not mentioned by those who I would have thought might mention it:

One of the 2.5 BRM engines finished up in Don Fraser's hands at least for a year or three. Don ran it in one of his Cicada chassis (was there more than one, or did one continually metamorphisise?) and I'm sure contested Tasman races at least at Sandown Park.

Don Fraser died about four or five years ago, was from Adelaide... later renditions of the Cicada had Ford V8s.

#28 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 14 June 2002 - 09:36

Fraser was entered in the Sandown race in 1967, was a DNA in 1968 and DNQ in 1969 (bpt 1m 14.8s).

#29 930fly

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Posted 14 June 2002 - 12:13

Whilst appreciatig that this information is likely to be available in an eagerly awaited forthcoming book, could anybody tell me if the P57 (not P578) used by Ginther in early 1962 GPs ( and crunched at Monaco)was the Lewis or Marsh car? I can offer no rational explanation as to why I need to know this. I have dug out my copy of the programme from the Jan 1961 Racing Car Show (which I attended) and the picture of the BRM featured looks exactly like P57 i.e. no vertical bars in nosecone etc. Did P48 mk2 look like this?

#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 14 June 2002 - 18:26

Mr Fly - neither. It was the first of the three cars, the one later chopped in half, messed about and revived as the Rover-BRM. The 4-brake P57 Mark II did rather resemble the P57s but the 48s were slightly more bulky and hefty looking, in all directions.

DCN

#31 Allen Brown

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Posted 14 June 2002 - 22:14

Milan

Fraser first used the BRM P25 engine in an old Cooper T53, one he acquired in a damaged state from Davison's estate. It was probably F1-2-61 but I can't be sure. There were two other Cooper T53s beig used in Gold Star events at the same time, the ex-Stillwell/Patterson F1-5-61 and the other ex-Stillwell car, Tony Osborne's "F2-5-60".

I hope this table is readable:
[b]1964										   F1-2-61   F1-5-61	   "F2-5-60"	  [/b]

Australian Gold Star  12 Oct  Mallala		  Fraser R				Osborne R 

[b]1965[/b]			 

Sandown Int. Cup	  21 Feb  Sandown Park			   McDonald R		  

Australian GP		 01 Mar  Longford				   McDonald 11

Australian Gold Star  11 Apr  Sandown Park	 Fraser 6 

[b]1966[/b]

Warwick Farm		  13 Feb  Warwick Farm			   O’Sullivan C 

Australian GP		 22 Feb  Lakeside				   O’Sullivan DNS

Sandown Int. Cup	  27 Feb  Sandown Park	 Fraser C  O’Sullivan R 

[b]1969											 ????		 [/b]

Australian Gold Star  26 Oct  Surfers Paradise Anderson ? 

Australian Gold Star  07 Dec  Warwick Farm	 Wood DNS
(I'm not entirely sure which car "B Anderson" and "G Wood" drove in 1969. I think it was Clive Osborne's car but let's avoid turning this into another Cooper T53 thread.)

The first Cicada-BRM may have been based on the Cooper-BRM.

Allen

#32 fines

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 08:33

Hang on here, Cicada? I have a Cicada chassis running in seventies USAC competition, is there any connection?

1973, Round 8, Milwaukee, FP 11, SP 22, Jerry Karl, #93 Cicada, Cicada/Offenhauser, 184 laps, Flagged
1974, Round 2, Ontario, FP 15, SP 15, Bob Harkey, #93 Cicada Racing, Cicada/Offenhauser, 3 laps, Poor handling
1974, Round 3, Ontario, FP 17, SP 30, Bob Harkey, #93 Cicada Racing, Cicada/Offenhauser, 154 laps, Gearbox
1974, Round 5, Trenton, FP 14, SP 17, Bob Harkey, #93 Cicada Racing, Cicada/Offenhauser, 27 laps, Gearbox
1974, Round 6, Indianapolis, DNS, Jigger Sirois, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, Did not qualify
1974, Round 7, Milwaukee, FP 19, SP 22, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, 42 laps, Black flagged
1974, Round 9, Michigan, FP 23, SP 23, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, 15 laps, Oil seal
1974, Round 10, Milwaukee, FP 22, SP 23, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, 3 laps, Ignition
1974, Round 11, Michigan, FP 7, SP 19, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, 106 laps, Flagged
1974, Round 12, Trenton, FP 13, SP 15, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, 86 laps, Flagged
1974, Round 13, Trenton, FP 15, SP 13, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, 3 laps, Ignition
1974, Round 14, Phoenix, DNS, Dan Murphy, #25 Adams Automotive, Cicada/Offenhauser, Wrecked qualifying
1975, Round 6, Indianapolis, DNS, Dan Murphy, #25 Cicada, Cicada/Offenhauser, Did not qualify
1975, Round 6, Indianapolis, DNS, Bob Harkey, #25 Cicada, Cicada/Offenhauser, Did not qualify
1979, Round 3, Indianapolis, DNS, Bill Puterbaugh, #35 Medlin, Cicada/Offenhauser, Did not qualify
1979, Round 4, Milwaukee, FP 19, SP 18, Bill Puterbaugh, #35 SST Museum, Cicada/Offenhauser, 0 laps, Ignition
1979, Round 7, Milwaukee, FP 13, SP 18, Bill Puterbaugh, #35 SST Museum, Cicada/Offenhauser, 69 laps, Broken universal joint

#33 Brian Lear

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Posted 15 June 2002 - 12:44

Hang on here, Cicada? I have a Cicada chassis running in seventies USAC competition, is there any connection?


The short answer is .....No

#34 Barry Lake

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 08:36

Allen Brown

A small thing - but the Lakeside meeting you have listed was held on Sunday 20 February 1966, not Tuesday 22nd.

#35 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 13:16

Allen, I can't get my thinking fixed on Anderson, but Graham Wood I recall.. that car was a deep red. Wood might have been driving an Osborne car.

#36 Barry Lake

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 18:22

Graham Wood drove a Cooper Climax for Clive Osborne, though I don't remember its prior history.

Osborne phoned me and offered me a deal to drive the car, but it sounded a bit dodgy for me -I probably couldn't have raised the money at the time anyway. I don't know how many others he offered it to, but next thing I knew Wood turned up in it. I think he had a win at one stage.

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 June 2002 - 22:26

As Max always said, Clive was "a one eyed bastard..."

You're probably right about him scoring a win, maybe a minor race at Catalina or Oran Park.

#38 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 05:24

It seems not only Don Fraser drove the Cicada-BRM. This is from the RCN report of the 1968 Australian GP at Sandown Park.

Only one incident occurred during practice, and it was fortunate that it wasn't more serious. After accidentally baulking Greg Cusack on entering Peter's Corner, South Australian Geoff Vercoe, in the 2.5-litre Cicada-BRM, locked a brake in the tight left-hander and slid straight into the fence. The car's suspension was severely damaged and Vercoe was a scratching from the A.G.P.

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 June 2002 - 06:03

I'd either not known about that or forgotten it... but I'd say it was a good idea for Don to hand the car over to someone else... I do seem to remember looking at the damage in the pits, though.

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#40 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 21:15

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The only real problem would be that Wood's car was reported to be a 2.5-litre BRM when Wood first drove it. Could BRM have fitted an old P25/P48 engine to the car for sale?

I think I've just found the answer to my question. The very first P57 actually made its debut at the Lombank Trophy at Snetterton on 17 Sep 1960 - fitted with a 2.5-litre engine of course. It wouldn't start in practice so Gurney took over an older P48, only for that to refuse to start also.

So that means 572 could also have been fitted with a 2.5-litre for Wood.

Allen

#41 Roger Clark

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 21:26

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The very first P57 actually made its debut at the Lombank Trophy at Snetterton on 17 Sep 1960 - fitted with a 2.5-litre engine of course. It wouldn't start in practice so Gurney took over an older P48, only for that to refuse to start also.


Surely that was a P48 Mk2?

#42 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 21:51

Oh help!! Where's Doug when I need him?

I was reading from the F1 Register book - vol 7 p32 - and it calls the car 571: intended for the 1.5-litre formula. But I freely admit that I understand virtually nothing before 1964!

If I'm remembering Doug's P48 lessons, the P48 MkII was the dual-rear-brake car that first appeared at that same race but for Hill to use in testing. So has Sheldon mistaken the P48 Mk II for the first P57? Looks like it as he is showing Hill driving 487 (the Mk II) at Snetterton although Autosport merely mentions him testing it prior to the race and Gurney attempting to race it.

So does this mean the P57s didn't appear until Goodwood 3 April 1961?

Allen

#43 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 22:02

A bit more reading and I've convinced myself the P57s didn't appears until 1961 and that the F1 Register have got it wrong for once.

But the question of Wood's P57 having a 2.5-litre engine still intrigues me. Doug's article on the P48s in Autosport (11 Feb 1982) quotes Rudd saying that the P57 was developed from the P48 and that the engine bay was "positively enormous with room for about four FPFs". So maybe that is the answer to my question?

Allen

#44 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 22:27

Allen - no P57 ran prior to 1961. The Snetterton 1960 car was the first P48 Mark II - '487', introducing wishbone rear suspension in place of MacPherson (or Chapman) strut and with 4 brakes instead of three. There is an extra P48 - I have just confirmed - the second P48 Mark II used by Graham Hill in 1961 InterConinental Formula races under the number '484' involved an entirely new Mark II frame - leaving the old Mark I frame surplus to requirements. Graham's 1961 car was notionally '484' STILL, but it was a different '484' to the old one.

I have spoken to Greg Wood - thanks to Ted Walker AGAIN. He bought his car from Bourne and sold it back to them. He thinks it went then to the USA but doesn't really know. He ALSO drove Brian Waddilove's car and his recollection is that Waddilove's car was indeed broken up after the hill-climb crash. Despite Crabbie having no recollection of ever putting a V8 engine in the back of a tube-frame BRM - while recalling fudging together the F5000 hybrid using an H16 monocoque - Ted's wonderful archive has produced a couple of pix of Colin's BRM-Ford V in 1968, at Mallory Park and Thruxton. V. interesting too.

What's more, here's another serious anomaly - Jackie Epstein recalls his car as having been the ex-Tony Marsh V8, which would mean '573' - although Jackie cannot recall any number. He says he sold the car to Nigel Moores. Tom Wheatcroft says he bought a car direct from Epstein. The car Tom seems to be talking about is either the frame '572' which he "...gave to a lad who worked for me at the time who wanted to build a special..." - that's the frame that went to Rothschild and on to poor Spencer Flack and which we have definitely identified as the ex-Lewis car '572'

OR it's the rear-engined P48 Mark II that Tom has '487'... Or is what for years we have thought to be '487' in the Donington Collection really '488' alias '484'. Is anybody still with me????

DCN

#45 David McKinney

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 06:46

The identities of the early rear-engined BRMs (up to and including P261s) has always been a personal nightmare for me. Plenty of information was published in period, but some of it conflicted, and later data overturns much of what I originally believed. So now I’m unsure about all of them...
However, my earliest information, for what it’s worth, has 484 (the Mk2) going to Waddilove, then the Channel Islands, then to Wheatie in 1972. Still with him 1976, but I don’t know for how long after that. The same data says 483 was the Marsh/Ken Wilson car, which also passed through Donington.
As far as the other Mk2s are concered, my old notes say 486 went straight from Tony Griffiths to Donington, but I have no record of 487 between its 1961 Oulton Park GC entry for Roger Revol and its much more recent appearance at Donington.
Which, if no-one can trace 484 after I last saw it in 1976, may mean it did indeed transmogrify into the existing 487.
My records say 573 was at Donington post Epstein, but on loan from Robs Lamplough! This is the car owned more recently by Hannen and Knopfler.
The same records also say Donington has the display car built by the works using parts from the crashed 5782, and given the same number.
All this may have been superseded by later study. But it might raise questions for current researchers to investigate.

#46 Allen Brown

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 11:02

David

Thanks for trawling your old notes on this. You've turned up a good bit of new information. After an evening counting rivets on P57s with Doug, we've established that Crabbe's car was definitely 572. So that means the Wood-Crabbe-Chadney car was 572. I struggled to tell the difference between a P48 Mk II and a P57, even with Doug's patient coaching. The first Mk II (487) looks just like a P57 but the second ("484") seems to have P48 Mk I front bodywork, presumably because it was built using parts from the original 484. The differences between the P48 Mk I and P48 Mk II are far greater that between the Mk II and the P57.

The interesting bit of new information came when Doug spoke to Greg Wood. It turns out that he was driving Waddilove's P48 Mk I at Rufforth at the start of 1964 but, after Waddliove wrecked it at Harewood, Wood went to BRM and acquired one of the more recent cars and was convinced by Wilkie Wilkinson at Bourne to stuff a 4.7-litre Ford in it. So that explains why Wood is reported driving a 2.5-litre BRM - it wasn't his own P57, it was someone else's P48.

So, of the Mk I P48s, we now think that 481 was scrapped; 482 went to Glass then Steele and ended up with Wheatcroft; 483 was scrapped after Gurney's crash; 484 was rebuilt as a Mk II; 485 went to Glass and was scrapped after his crash; 486 went to Fielding then Waddlove and was wrecked in his accident at Harewood. So that means the only surviving Mk I was 482 which is now with Bruce McCaw.

Of the Mk II P48s, 487 went briefly to Revol then to Scragg, then to Griffiths before also going to Wheatcroft; "484" went to Marsh then Wilson and also ended up with Wheatcroft. We should be able to use the pictures to establish that 487 is the one still at Donington and that "484" is the one that went back to BRM and is now with Bruce Spollon.

You say Griffiths' car went straight to Wheatcroft. Any idea when?

You also have 484 Mk II from Waddilove and then the Channel Islands to Wheatcroft in 1972 and still with him in 1976 but I'm not clear whether whether to interpret that as the ex-Chadney P57 (which is the obly one I know going to the Channel Islands) or the ex-Waddilove 486 or the ex-Marsh/Wilson 484.

I agree with you on 573 and on 5782.

Epstein's recollections simply don't fit anywhere - for now. That's the great thing about jigsaws, for a while you can be convinced that one piece belongs to another jigsaw and then suddenly you realise that you had it upsidedown and it's actually the end of the parson's nose.

Allen

PS David - many, many thanks for all the 1967 SCCA material you sent in the post. I tried to email you but the email bounced.

#47 David McKinney

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Posted 05 July 2002 - 19:41

Griffiths sold the BRM to Wheatcroft in 1965 (as related by Griffiths to McKinney 1988)

#48 Allen Brown

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Posted 06 July 2002 - 10:14

David

Excellent! Another ... disappears.

Thanks

Allen

#49 Barry Lake

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Posted 23 January 2003 - 16:07

I have been speaking to Graham Howard, noted Australian motor racing historian, about these cars and have him inspired enough to join The Nostalgia Forum and to add a bit to these stories on the Arnold Glass BRMs.

He asked me how to join TNF. I have just had a look to try to work it out for him and came up with - nothing.

How in blazes does someone new get on to this forum?

Could someone who recently joined, please tell me how to do it?

#50 Doug Nye

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Posted 23 January 2003 - 19:02

There's some misinformation ABOVE but it's just taken me eight years to sort out a clearer picture.

For your eyes only ;) of the P48s -

481 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake (just the 'bacon slicer' on tail of gearbox at rear) never raced prototype, scrapped. DEAD.

482 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake car - the replacement Arnold Glass chassis after he'd w/o his original 485 - later fitted with Buick V8 engine, owned by everybody and his brother, Ford V8 engine - cannibalised by Wheatcroft for front-engined BRM Type 25 recreation programme - owned by Bruce McCaw today - in the UK - stripped, knackered - part-restored. SURVIVES.

483 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake car - written-off after Dan Gurney's 1960 Dutch GP accident in which a teenage boy spectator standing in a prohibited area was fatally injured. Scrapped. DEAD.

484 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake car - this was the Jo Bonnier 1960-season F1 car, returned to Bourne after the 1960 US GP, converted to Mark II wishbone rear suspension - and 4 outboard brakes instead of 1 outboard on each front whel and the 'bacon-slicer' on the back of the gearbox at the rear - Graham Hill's 1961 InterContinental Formula works car - Sold to Tony Marsh - NOTE 484 not 483 was the Marsh car - Marsh, Ken Wilson, Jack Alderslade, John Scott-Davies, cannibalised by Wheatcroft for front-engined BRM Type 25 recreation programme - stripped and returned to The BRM Collection at Bourne - sold by them in the October 22, 1981, auction sale at Earl's Court Motorfair, London - today in process of slow restoration with Bruce and Guy Spollon, UK. SURVIVES.

485 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake car - heroine of the 1960 British GP driven by Graham Hill - the first Arnold Glass car, w/o before he could race it, during private session at Mallala, South Australia. Returned to Bourne, scrapped. DEAD.

486 - strut-rear suspension, 3-brake car - Dan Gurney's late-season 1960 car - winner at Ballarat, Australia, 1961 - this is the Ray Fielding hill-climb car 1962-63, Sir John Townley, Brian Waddilove, Mike Stow, cannibalised by Stow for his original front-engined BRM Type 25 recreation programme (which pre-dated Wheatcroft's) - to Robs Lamplough UK - survives stripped, knackered - unrestored today. SURVIVES.

487 - The prototype Mark II wishbone rear suspension 4-brake car - from Bourne in 1962 to Phil Scragg for hill-climbing pending delivery of his Chaparral-Chevrolet ordered from Midland, Texas. Once that beast arrived Scragg sold this car to Tony Griffiths. Winter 1965-66 sold to Wheatcroft. Tom has preserved car in complete order evr since, in the Donington Collection since the museum opened. SURVIVES INTACT.

DCN