117 replies to this topic

[LCA]

And just when we thought the Open-Wheel WAR was over... well, at least CART has stopped pretending that the IRL and Tony George mean CART no harm. Here is a snippet from CART.com...

He [CART CEO Chris Pook] wouldn't discuss the details, but he did leave little doubt where he stood on the IRL.

"I'm tired of holding out an olive branch," he said. "We tried to be compatible with the other series by changing our engines and chassis and they summarily rejected it. So now we'll go about it our own way.

“I mean why should we destroy our quality of racing for someone else? They are trying to destroy us. Two or more entities are trying to destroy our company. But we're not going away.

“When I was young and someone hit me in the side of the head, I made sure to hit back harder.”

Chris Pook is my personal hero and the savior of CART. Finally, some one with open eyes is running CART.

[molive]

YES! That´s the spirit!

Keep the Turbos and current chassis, add a few more great road courses, drop a few boring ovals and give a finger to Indy/TG.

Pook:up:

[SKL]

AMEN, molive!!

[StickShift]

"I'm tired of holding out an olive branch," he said. "We tried to be compatible with the other series by changing our engines and chassis and they summarily rejected it. So now we'll go about it our own way.

That line, I think, might confirm that we aren't going to the 3.5s!

btw, anyone else been able to get on to 7G lately?

[Lateralus42]

I think thats the first time I have heard someone from CART finally acknowledge that there are outside forces trying to destroy CART. Its about freaking time.


stickshift try these links:


main page:

http://66.221.65.135/


Forums:


http://66.221.65.135.../ultimatebb.cgi

[StickShift]

Here's the entire article off of Cart.com

MAN WITH A PLAN
Monday, June 10, 2002

by Robin Miller

MONTEREY, Cal.--Chris Pook didn't send a message over the weekend at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, he sent several of them.
Such as:

• You're either in or out in 2003, but he ain't begging.
• He's going to lower the cost of racing and make it appetizing for anyone who craves open-wheel racing.
• Tony George and the Indy Racing League have been identified and are definitely the enemy.
• CART will answer the bell next year in its current format of ovals, street circuits and road courses.

During an impassioned and impromptu state of CART interview with several of the national media, CART's President and CEO addressed most of the pressing issues of the CART FedEx Championship Series.

The hot topic of conversation lately has been CART's car count for 2003 and Pook had plenty to say about his plan to keep 18 to 20 cars on the grid.

“I have to give owners a business plan. It's like giving them an apple and we'll ask them to bite into it or spit it out,” he said. “That's where we've got to be and if you don't want to play then we'll miss you, but I don't have time to mourn.

“We've got three brand new guys who want to come here and one is already financed. There are two more very interested and I know we've got some guys on the fence.

“Right now we've got 12 cars that are with us and maybe 14. If teams decide to go to the other side, they're going to get swept into that swirling vortex that will drag them under.

“But whatever we do, we'll have to have 18 cars and we will.”

Pook intends to unveil his business plan in the near future.

“We have to create a sensible economic model for these teams and we're going to do just that," he explained. "Something in the $3.5-6.5 million range is our goal and we need to use our resources prudently and use the money to build our business.

“I'm going to make big changes.”

He wouldn't discuss the details, but he did leave little doubt where he stood on the IRL.

“I'm tired of holding out an olive branch," he said. "We tried to be compatible with the other series by changing our engines and chassis and they summarily rejected it. So now we'll go about it our own way.

“I mean why should we destroy our quality of racing for someone else? They are trying to destroy us. Two or more entities are trying to destroy our company. But we're not going away.

“When I was young and someone hit me in the side of the head, I made sure to hit back harder.”

The founder of the Long Beach Grand Prix acknowledged that one owner had proposed turning the FedEx Championship into a road racing series only, but that won't happen.

“CART is unique and there's not another series in motorsports that requires the skills necessary to master these four disciplines,” said Pook. “We have to look at our audience and I believe they like our diversity.

“We still have some of the finest venues and teams in the world, outside of Formula One, and we intend to build on it. It's too good.”

Testify!

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Lateralus42
stickshift try these links:
main page:
http://66.221.65.135/
Forums:
http://66.221.65.135.../ultimatebb.cgi

Cheers!

[lateralforce]

Bring on Mid-Ohio and Cleveland!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Pook's hubris is going to kill the series. Keeping turbos is going to majorly piss off Ilmor and MG, to the point where Ilmor said they wont ever be back if it happens. Also last week Pook said something enormously stupid along the lines of CART oval races being the highest attended oval events outside the indy500. Except for the IRL race at Texas and about 90 various NASCAR races

[Lateralus42]

"Also last week Pook said something enormously stupid along the lines of CART oval races being the highest attended oval events outside the indy500. Except for the IRL race at Texas and about 90 various NASCAR races"


Im pretty sure he threw the term 'open wheel' in there, so that excludes NASCAR. Cmon give the man some credit, he isnt some kind of dumbass. Milwaukee outdrew all of the first 4 IRL events, that was the point he was making. CART also has another well attended oval event in the USA at the end of the year, Fontana. Fontana is charging full price for the tickets and no WC package, and yet they still get a huge crowd.

[LCA]

Originally posted by StickShift

That line, I think, might confirm that we aren't going to the 3.5s!

I wouldn't be so sure that this means CART is going to keep the 2.65s - certainly sounds like a hint though - doesn't it? But it hardly counts as an announcement. That being said, I think CART is in trouble and the stability provided by a spec 2.65 Cosworth Turbo with spec Lola chassis may not be a bad idea for a few years until the series gets back on its feet. The downside would be alienating MG - I know - we've already talked about all this on other threads.

I took it merely to mean that Pook wasn't going to make accomodations or concessions to the IRL in the future and that Pook knows TG is out to break CART.

[LCA]

More on the turbo business from 7G rumors section...

06/07/02
Turbo rumors rampant

Here in the paddock there is much talk about a move to return to the turbo engine package. Cosworth put an offer on the table last year to provide all the teams with the engine. Cosworth reps reiterated last week that the offer was still on the table.

There's also belief that this ties closely in with the rumors of Gerry Forsythe buying up CART stock in a move to re-privatize.

[EdwRom]

Well, I'll be enjoying it live at Mid-Ohio in August (my birthday weekend). We'll see what happens beyond 2003. I won't even pretend to have a clue about what will happen, but look forward to a solution that keeps the series alive. At least Pook is taking a stand. Whether it saves the series or fails to stop it's downward spiral, at least there seems to be a move in the right direction. Maybe.

[Toyoter]

This is becoming more of a CART/IRL forum than an F1 forum. I guess people really *are* getting bored with Formula Schumacher. Thank God I can still wake up every other Sunday and pray that Toyota will actually finish a race, otherwise I don't know what I'd be watching.

I only saw about 5 minutes of the CART race at Laguna Seca (I saw it go yellow immediately after the first turn and decided I'd rather go for a bike ride than watch 87 laps run under caution), but I heard a Toyota won and there were no Hondas in the top 10 .

[917k]

Yup,there are two entities trying to kill CART,the CART board and the CART stockholders.

The grand conspiracy unfolds

Personally,Pook is looking more and more like a Heitzler wannabee[spin doctor].He rants and raves about attendance and attacks the IRL.Same old problem,CARTers think CART didn't create any of these problems,the grand''conspiracy''to destroy CART is behind this .

Hey,whats up with this turbo rumour?I thought Pook said as many as 5 suppliers last month,where did they go to?

Face it,CART took on a disorganized,bushleague bunch of wanker-racers and lost,big time.CARTs problems are all of their own making and if they are going to continue to blame everyone but them,then they deserve to die.

No one mentions the part of the article that says that CART has 12 confirmed cars for next year,kinda relevant,don't you think?

[Toyoter]

Originally posted by 917k
No one mentions the part of the article that says that CART has 12 confirmed cars for next year,kinda relevant,don't you think?

Hey now, he said maybe 14! Can't leave out the 2 maybes.

[917k]

Hey,Toyoter,I noticed you were over at AR1,sprinkling a bit of ''reality dust'' on the forums.
Isn't that place the catsmeow?

PS-did you know that Bill Gates is going to buy CART?You know,there was a Microsoft commercial on Speedchannel just before the race!Put 2 and 2 together,makes good business sense.I'm sworne to secrecy,of course,and this may not happen this decade,but it will happen,you have my word on it.My ''source''is 95% certain that this may happen or at least will not happen,depending on the barometric pressure on Mt. Fuji[where we will race next year!!!];)

[LCA]

Originally posted by 917k
Yup,there are two entities trying to kill CART,the CART board and the CART stockholders.

The grand conspiracy unfolds

Personally,Pook is looking more and more like a Heitzler wannabee[spin doctor].He rants and raves about attendance and attacks the IRL.Same old problem,CARTers think CART didn't create any of these problems,the grand''conspiracy''to destroy CART is behind this .

Hey,whats up with this turbo rumour?I thought Pook said as many as 5 suppliers last month,where did they go to?

Face it,CART took on a disorganized,bushleague bunch of wanker-racers and lost,big time.CARTs problems are all of their own making and if they are going to continue to blame everyone but them,then they deserve to die.

No one mentions the part of the article that says that CART has 12 confirmed cars for next year,kinda relevant,don't you think?

Uh, oh. Someody must have a bad case of the Mondays.

Pook = Heitzler

Tony George and the IRL is no "conspiracy" - their desire to destroy CART is very real.

You'll feel better tomorrow....

[Toyoter]

Originally posted by 917k
Hey,Toyoter,I noticed you were over at AR1,sprinkling a bit of ''reality dust'' on the forums.
Isn't that place the catsmeow?

PS-did you know that Bill Gates is going to buy CART?You know,there was a Microsoft commercial on Speedchannel just before the race!Put 2 and 2 together,makes good business sense.I'm sworne to secrecy,of course,and this may not happen this decade,but it will happen,you have my word on it.My ''source''is 95% certain that this may happen or at least will not happen,depending on the barometric pressure on Mt. Fuji[where we will race next year!!!];)

Heh heh ;). All that crap they were posting last week about CART being taken over by God himself was plain hilarious. Very entertaining, especially when they all started back-pedalling like mad because it was all a bunch of hoo-ha .

[LCA]

Originally posted by Toyoter

Heh heh ;). All that crap they were posting last week about CART being taken over by God himself was plain hilarious. Very entertaining, especially when they all started back-pedalling like mad because it was all a bunch of hoo-ha .

Of course, being as smart as you are you knew there was nothing to it all along...

nothing like posters who are above it all...

[917k]

Tony George doesn't need to ''destroy'' CART,they are doing a fine job on their own.

Anyhow,turnabout is fair play,don't you think?It was great when CART had the upper hand and did everything it could to destroy the IRL,RIGHT?
But now that the shoe is on the other foot,its the ''grand conspiracy.''

How long have you fellows been fans;very short and selective memories.

[LCA]

Originally posted by 917k
Tony George doesn't need to ''destroy'' CART,they are doing a fine job on their own.

Anyhow,turnabout is fair play,don't you think?It was great when CART had the upper hand and did everything it could to destroy the IRL,RIGHT?
But now that the shoe is on the other foot,its the ''grand conspiracy.''

How long have you fellows been fans;very short and selective memories.

Look, I understand you think CART brought all their current woes upon themselves - I think you may have a point. I don't know anyone on this board who would disagree that CART's mismanagement led to many of its current problems (ie manufacturers leaving). There is no need to insult fans of CART by assuming they are so weak-minded that they cannot percieve the obvious facts you point out.

CART, however, has made certain strides to unify the two OW series (seemingly against their best interest). Namely, CART adopted the chassis/engine format of the IRL. The IRL responded by telling chassis manufacturers that they could only build for the IRL, but not both. That killed the effort by CART to bring the two series closer and kinda screwed CART. What the hell is the point of using IRL engines if there is no common chassis?

The small sequence of events described above is what Pook is talking about - It seems you missed that point. There is nothing "mysterious" or "conspiratorial" he is referring to. How long have you been following CART? I'm sure you're older and wiser...

Where is my backup? HEY, Lat, molive, aport!

[fumanchu86]

I really really like the type of racing CART offers, have done since I started watching in '98. Like EdwRom, i have no idea what will happen or what the ideal solution is, but I will definately enjoy the racing for as long as it continues.

Thats the biggest disappointment for me, that all the speculation over CARTs future has kind of taken the focus off the racing itself. That and the fact that coverage down here in New Zealand has gone from full length live in the previous years to 20 minute highlights 1 week later this year

I'll try to take some good news from the lastest announcement, I much prefer the cars as they are to the IRL equivalents.

[MFC993]

There used to be another open wheel racing series way back when where almost all the cars were powered by Ford Cosworth DFV's and the people involved were committed to racing on the limit. It is for sure that CART has its flaws but true open wheel fans should be pleased by these recent proclamations. I personally felt that CART was "dumbing down" to the IRL's level in order to survive and was not very interested in watching the finished product. Racing underpowered big wing spec cars on ovals may thrill Joe NASCAR but that individual is not in the demographic of CART. Let TG and his crew go chase after the crumbs from NASCAR's table. CART can and will remain a high-technology series committed to competitive racing at the highest level possible. All open wheelers should look forward to the show and (hopefully) to the long term survival of CART.

[Lada Lover]

F1 Rules! CART drools.

[molive]

Originally posted by Lada Lover
F1 Rules! CART drools.

Pretty funny, for a "Lada Lover".;)

[annica]

Pook should make a change in the engine department to 3 litre NA.

Yes.

This way, push comes to shove, Illmor alone would be able to supply the entire grid. No stress on the engine maker as it's spec. Ford Cosworth would like this too. This would also get the interest of many other manufacturers currently involved in F1 as they can use their same engine for competing in other series.

[KinetiK]

Originally posted by LCA
Chris Pook is my personal hero and the savior of CART. Finally, some one with open eyes is running CART.

Too little, too late.

[aportinga]

Well I sincerely hope CART survives.... What they need to do:

1. Spend boat loads of cash to develop a BernieVision like broadcast. Time Warner is doing this for NASCAR and I think if Pook offers up free sponsorship to Time Warner that they could get somthing similar at a decent cost. This would no doubt get them ahead of the IRL in terms of TV - which is really the primary segment that they are lacking - because they certainly do NOT have any problems packing the stands ... unlike the IRL which I seriously doubt they ever will (just not enough OW oval fans out there - and after so many years I think it's utterly clear that the NASCAR fans are NOT interested).

2. Screw MG and stick with the Turbo's (Cosworth could effectively promote Ford, Mazda, Jaguar and more by simply rebadging the engines).

3. Align with ALMS and begin to cross promote races.

4. Re-establish themselves at MIS, California and try try try to get back with TMS... If they can manage to do this it would certainly give back the uniquness of the series that it once claimed and absolutely take the wind from TG's sails... I mean how could the IRL promote themselves as being so great when in this scenario they'd be competing on 3rd rate ovals.

5. Disolve the DE Board and buy back CART shares...

6. Stay in the States and work more closely with BE and F1 to augment the American farm systems and serve as a platform to F1.

[Toyoter]

Originally posted by aportinga
6. Stay in the States and work more closely with BE and F1 to augment the American farm systems and serve as a platform to F1.

There seems to be a lot of speculation about BE and CART at the moment. In fact, there were tons of CART fans last week who believed that BE was actually buying up all of CART's horrendously devalued stock. I'm not sure where this stuff came from. BE has never shown any interest in CART, quite the opposite in fact. He and Tony George are working together on a plan to destroy CART as far as I can tell, which is why Indy got the USGP, and also why TG used his pull with ABC to have four GP's broadcast on network television in Bernievision (with Monaco receiving a great lead-in from the I500). I believe their thought is that if you want to watch OW ovals in the States, you have the IRL. If you want to watch OW road racing, there's F1. CART, which is quickly becoming inferior to the IRL on ovals and is vastly inferior to F1 on road courses, will then be seen as a second rate product.

In short, BE would have absolutely no reason to prop up CART, which is much more of a direct competitor to F1 than the IRL. The CART fans who are looking to Bernie as a potential savior are fooling themselves. He's as much a part of the plot to destroy the series as TG is, only he's much more tight-lipped about it.

[molive]

Originally posted by aportinga
Well I sincerely hope CART survives.... What they need to do:

1. Spend boat loads of cash to develop a BernieVision like broadcast. Time Warner is doing this for NASCAR and I think if Pook offers up free sponsorship to Time Warner that they could get somthing similar at a decent cost. This would no doubt get them ahead of the IRL in terms of TV - which is really the primary segment that they are lacking - because they certainly do NOT have any problems packing the stands ... unlike the IRL which I seriously doubt they ever will (just not enough OW oval fans out there - and after so many years I think it's utterly clear that the NASCAR fans are NOT interested).

2. Screw MG and stick with the Turbo's (Cosworth could effectively promote Ford, Mazda, Jaguar and more by simply rebadging the engines).

3. Align with ALMS and begin to cross promote races.

4. Re-establish themselves at MIS, California and try try try to get back with TMS... If they can manage to do this it would certainly give back the uniquness of the series that it once claimed and absolutely take the wind from TG's sails... I mean how could the IRL promote themselves as being so great when in this scenario they'd be competing on 3rd rate ovals.

5. Disolve the DE Board and buy back CART shares...

6. Stay in the States and work more closely with BE and F1 to augment the American farm systems and serve as a platform to F1.

Pretty much agree with everything, except for the "stay in the states" bit. IMO CART should continue to stablish themseves as an international series, with races in SA, Asia, Oceania and Europe (plus Mex and Canada). Let IRL and Nascar market themselves for their redneck beer drinking fans. CART is better and deserves better than that.

[aportinga]

Toyota...

If Bernie controlled Cart and the IRL fell he could also attempt a take over of Indy. At some point F1 is going to hit a ceiling... If he were to switch allegence and bring with him the manufactures he could make more money because CART still has a long was to go. And lets also remember that he'd propbably sell off all of SLEC before making such a move - which means even more money.

Lets also remember that Max Mosely has already stated that the FIA would support another WC... But I'd say screw the FIA! There are allot more tracks out there that CART CAN run on that are not FIA sanctioned - allot of great ones too...

[molive]

Originally posted by Toyoter

CART, which is quickly becoming inferior to the IRL on ovals and is vastly inferior to F1 on road courses, will then be seen as a second rate product.

BS. IRL only has one oval race worth mentioning, and they actually need the CART guys to go there and whip their arses in order for it to have any type of face value.

You have the right to think CART "vastly inferior" to F1, no doubt, but that is you opinion.

IMO, taking in account only the racing aspect (close racing, great variety of tracks, real passing, different winners each race, etc) I find CART to be much more enjoyable these days.

Of course, my view might look biased because there´s a certain german whom I despise winning everything in F1 while a favourite of mine (CDM) is showing the goods at CART...;)

[Witt]

Originally posted by Toyoter


There seems to be a lot of speculation about BE and CART at the moment. In fact, there were tons of CART fans last week who believed that BE was actually buying up all of CART's horrendously devalued stock. I'm not sure where this stuff came from. BE has never shown any interest in CART, quite the opposite in fact. He and Tony George are working together on a plan to destroy CART as far as I can tell, which is why Indy got the USGP, and also why TG used his pull with ABC to have four GP's broadcast on network television in Bernievision (with Monaco receiving a great lead-in from the I500). I believe their thought is that if you want to watch OW ovals in the States, you have the IRL. If you want to watch OW road racing, there's F1. CART, which is quickly becoming inferior to the IRL on ovals and is vastly inferior to F1 on road courses, will then be seen as a second rate product.

In short, BE would have absolutely no reason to prop up CART, which is much more of a direct competitor to F1 than the IRL. The CART fans who are looking to Bernie as a potential savior are fooling themselves. He's as much a part of the plot to destroy the series as TG is, only he's much more tight-lipped about it.

That is right Toyoter. Bernie helping CART in any way, shape, or form would be a conflict of interests. Bernie needs F1 in america, and pissing off Tony G by helping CART would not be a wise business decision.

No one in this thread has talked about the second "entity" that is trying to destroy CART. The IRL is one, who is the other? Is it Bernie and F1? Or is it implied that the second entity is CART itself????;)

I find the whole racing 'saga' in america to be quite fascinating, more so than the actual racing itself (but that is the fault of the network down-under that shows CART races 1 day delayed).

[aportinga]

Of course I am only exploring other options - it's not too say I don't agree with what ur saying.

[LCA]

I can feel the momentum building for the turbos!

By: John Zimmermann

Tustin, Calif., June 11


John Zimmermann is the Editor-At-Large for RACER magazine.


With apologies to the old Bard himself, that question has been weighing heavily on the hearts and minds of all in CART since the organization announced last October in Houston that it would abandon its long-standing turbocharged engine formula in favor of atmospheric 3.5-liter V8s. The move was intended to be another unilateral step toward reconciliation with the Indy Racing League, where such an engine is de rigueur, but as time has clearly shown, there is no interest from the IRL for any sort of reconciliation short of capitulation. As Bobby Rahal says, "I think it’s clear that we have to stop trying to accommodate the IRL."

That announcement from CART was followed, a week later at Laguna Seca, by one from Honda in which the Japanese carmaker said it would be leaving the series when the turbo formula expired at the end of 2002. Further, the Honda folks were so dismayed by the actions of CART’s officials during 2001—remember the pop-off controversy in Detroit?—that when queried as to whether they would stay if the rules were changed back, they declined, saying it would only prove to them that CART could not be trusted.

This was, of course, one of the contributing factors that led to the ouster of Joe Heitzler and the hiring of Chris Pook to be CART president and CEO, but I digress.

Also last fall, Cosworth Engineering offered to supply the entire field with less expensive, slightly de-tuned examples of its current 2.65-liter turbocharged XF engine in 2003, but the offer was turned down. Now, for several reasons, it seems this option may be ready for resuscitation.

Along with the atmospheric engines came IRL-style cars, bigger and clumsier than those that have evolved under CART’s stewardship of Champ Car racing. When various political roadblocks were thrown in the path of Lola’s plans to build IRL cars, however, CART apparently began to see the depth of the potential problems and decided to rescind the chassis ruling. Instead, it proposed adapting the present cars to the larger powerplants.

Having had some rudimentary engineering training and a lifetime of observation, I, for one, believe that move would be a disaster of unbelievable proportions. Sticking big, heavy engines in the back of the current cars would only destroy a carefully integrated competitive package, creating unwieldy beasts of undocumented parentage.

Were CART once again to change course and accept the Cosworth offer, the only real fallout from the a decision that I can see is that the organization might be accused of even more indecision, but I believe that rather than vacillation, such a move could simply be viewed as a case of correcting a mistake. And in hindsight, who among us wouldn’t like to have had the opportunity to do that at some point in our lives?

While adopting a single-engine format could be seen as a come-down from the days when four major manufacturers supplied engines to CART teams, as Rahal points out, "Historically, some of CART’s greatest growth came when it had only one engine manufacturer."

Although I believed from the beginning that the IRL had no desire to reunite open-wheel racing, I nevertheless considered the ideal circumstance and on several occasions proposed a proper National Championship comprised of two divisions, one run all on ovals, the other on road and street circuits, with all races in both divisions counting toward the overall championship. Such a scenario implied that a reconciliation would be achieved, but given the IRL’s unwillingness to do any such thing, CART has to take care of itself.

"We’re tired of holding out the olive branch," declared Pook last weekend. "This company changed engines to try and be compatible with the other series. This company then decided to change chassis to be compatible with the other series. Everybody says open-wheel racing should come together. Well, we put an olive branch out there and they summarily rejected it, so we’re going to go on about our own way. Why should we destroy our form of racing and our quality of racing to satisfy others? The only reason was to create compatibility between the two series, and guess what happened?"

It’s not too difficult to read between the lines, is it?

http://www.speedtv.c...&cat=20&id=1843

[Turn13]

Originally posted by LCA
CART, however, has made certain strides to unify the two OW series (seemingly against their best interest). Namely, ...

...boycotting the Indy 500, and trying to stage a race against it. Two completely and utterly failed efforts, but perfectly in synch with the failed Hawaiian Super Prix, the failure at TMS, the popoff-in-your-face, and the turbo-about-face.

CART didn't "make peace" with Honda or Toyota, either; nor with many other erstwhile partners. CART has never been about the olive branch, and it's foolish to try to get sympathy points for it. CART only copped the IRL's formula in a bid to sway teams that were leaving- that failed, too: those teams are leaving anyway.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Turn13


...boycotting the Indy 500, and trying to stage a race against it. Two completely and utterly failed efforts, but perfectly in synch with the failed Hawaiian Super Prix, the failure at TMS, the popoff-in-your-face, and the turbo-about-face.

CART didn't "make peace" with Honda or Toyota, either; nor with many other erstwhile partners. CART has never been about the olive branch, and it's foolish to try to get sympathy points for it. CART only copped the IRL's formula in a bid to sway teams that were leaving- that failed, too: those teams are leaving anyway.

I don't blame them for boycotting the 500. The 25 and 8 rule was pure evil and sickening. Staging a race against of the 500 was spiteful, and in retrospect, pointless.

The Hawaiian super prix... never understood that. Dumb.

TMS. Why Bobby Rahal agreed to sign an agreement to go there is utterly beyond me. Why they didn't have more testing including group tests is beyond me too. They had data suggesting the G loads for their cars, but they did a couple of tests at the wrong time of the year and never in groups. Horrible mistake.

The pop off valve controversy. They should have fired the tech man on the Friday in Detroit. Don't piss off a company that pays oodles of money for CART ads.

Going to the normally aspirated formula. Don't put out an olive branch to a wolf. Period. Tony George has his own fantasies and they don't include CART. So piss on him.

Yeah, I agree CART screwed up by not taking advantage of their strengths post 1996. But I totally disagree with your first point.

[cavedog]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Pook's hubris is going to kill the series. Keeping turbos is going to majorly piss off Ilmor and MG, to the point where Ilmor said they wont ever be back if it happens. Also last week Pook said something enormously stupid along the lines of CART oval races being the highest attended oval events outside the indy500. Except for the IRL race at Texas and about 90 various NASCAR races

Ross...why dont you play CounteStrike with us anymore?

[RiverRunner]

I'd like to have a question answered by the irl faithful.
Who was it that staged the US 500?
Here I'll get it for ya,being hoosiers and all.
Woooooaaaahhhhh,big surprise,Penske!!!
Saviour at the last moment for the irl with 2 wins in a row at the i500.
So who runs US OW?
Penske or George?
Or both?
My bet that is that Penske wins now that he is partnered with the France family mafia in running all of TG's "races".George and Bruton Smith will be lucky to keep their tracks on the next economy boom.What the hell,TG is now far more in danger than he ever was with CART,now France can pull (or gouge) for the BY400 and at a moments notice ISC(FRance and Penske) can tell TG to pound sand on racing at their tracks anymore with the irl.Bernies getting his pound of flesh at IMS,why shouldn't the NASCAR bunch too?
To me,an Indianopolis 500 fan since the mid sixties,the stupidest thing IMO for IMS was to ever let anything other than the Indy 500 be run there.The day I heard NASCAR was comin' I thought TG was an idiot.He has rarely disappointed me,nor surprised me either as being a fool.

I totally agree with Pook,CART is an identity all on it's own,the ONLY series where a driver and manufacturer must win on a huge variety of circuits and conditions all over the world.
It' an easy sell on TV.With work on the formula since finally realizing that TG has been out since Day 1 to kill it no matter what,it can once again stand alone as a series and still and be a spoiler at the i500 year in year out.

As for Ross' assertion that Ilmor will never build again for CART,well duh,they haven't for years now anyway.Besides that,what the hell have they done in F-1,NASCAR or the irl lately,yeah yeah yeah Helio lasted for the i500,but what else do they have to brag about?They are certainly not dominating in F-1,the irl,NASCAR, or even CART since when?
Penske's fingerprints are all over that anyway.
Face it kids,Penske alone probably sells and or buys (for his rentals bizs) more cars or trucks of every variety in the World.
He is the string puller now and TG is along for the ride.
From a famous Paddock Club saying,
Penske 'owns ' American OW racing.
Now that Penske is deep in cahoots with the NASCAR portion of this pox on racing at their commonly owned tracks,they HAVE to kill CART.Who knows,now that Penske and ISC are totally off the paperwork at CART,maybe they have been the ones snapping up shares like mad the last few weeks to liquidate it and snatch the cash CART has been sitting on for years.

It's up to the promoters and CART to sell tickets and so far the CART carnival surely does that whereever it goes,except ovals which split the fanbase with the irl from the get go.

The problem with the irl is that have a minimum of fans that will transfer from being CART fans to tbeing irl fans and hence the irl will have to build a whole new fan base from scratch,it's more than obvious that the NASCAR fan is not biting on the irl by now.They have lost a buncha venues already from not being a draw. New or old tracks on their schedule will not draw crowds either without charging NASCAR fan for tickets he'll throw in the trash.

No matter which side you are on (if you are on one) this is the farthest American based OW wheel racing has ever sunk.It's truly pitiful,on both sides.
Thanks Tony,you saved racing in Amerika.

[Buford]

Absolutely. If CART fails, and it already has as the high tech, ace driver and teams, race on every kind of track series it used to be, that does not mean the IRL succeeds. Half the fan base that cared about Indy Car racing in 1995 are now gone. Vanished. Died off because they were already old, switched to Nascar, became Curling fans, or whatever. But they are gone. They neither attend races or watch TV anymore, either the IRL or CART.

What is left, the other half is divided up about 90% for CART and against Tony George, and the other 10% are in Love with Tony George and hate CART and road racing. This group still watch all the races on both sides on TV and that makes up about a million households. But since CART has the vast majority of the fans, and if there is no more CART, I submit most will not then go to IRL races because they will blame, already do blame Tony George for wrecking the terrific series there was in the early 1990s. Most will join the 50% that have already lost interest and left the sport.

Tony George declared war on the fans as well as the racers. What makes anybody think they will forgive and forget if he "wins." If even half don't, and I think that is a reasonable guess, then 3/4 of the fans that existed in 1995 will be gone. Young people are no longer interested. They are into the extreme sports, or Nascar, or drag racing. Not Indy Cars. So there are few new fans coming up. Nascar fans have already told the IRL to take a hike. They have had 7 years to get interested and they have not.

So the IRL will be a total failure too, even if CART fails. There will not be enough fans left to make the demographics to attract the sponsors necessary to run the crapwagons. The fans are gone Tony George bootlickers. Stop deluding yourselves. Your boy has killed the sport. He has won the ashes of his own creation.

[molive]

Originally posted by Buford
the fan base that cared about Indy Car racing in 1995 are now gone. Vanished. Died off because they were already old, switched to Nascar, became Curling fans, or whatever. But they are gone. They neither attend races or watch TV anymore, either the IRL or CART.

I´m still here (still watching, since 94, despite all this mess). :

[lumepo03]

Don't we all just love racing. I mean who cares abou the series don't we want to see racing. Now there is reason to why Tony George makes the decisions he does and the same for CART. Does CART need to form a partnership with the IRL? Maybe later but not in its present form, it is afterall a public company where as the IRL is a private organisation. Was Mr. George correct in preventing the CART series from using the same chassis as the IRL? Was he circumventing a forseeable problem? There is alot of hoopla about Mr. Penkse running the show. I do not believe this to be the case. Everything that Mr. Penkse is involved with will necessarily turn into gold. Look at his business partnership with KMART. Take a quick look at the wealthiest people in the American racing scene and you will see
that Mary Hulman and Menard are ahead of Mr. Penkse. I would like to see CART survive but it really is abit late. As the Americans like to say "That dog won't hunt". Perhaps from the ashes of CART a new series will arise. One that will allow a driver to compete in series on circuits in open wheel vehicles. Television is inundated with race series. I like racing but even I have a limit and a life. I mean we have stock cars racing in the 1) Winston Cup, 2) Busch series, 3) IROC series 4) Hooter's Cup 5) Sportsman series 6) Craftsman truck series ETC...... What next the F1 series, the F.9
series, F.8 series... All of them are trying to vie for tv coverage, sponsorship, drivers, manufacturers. This is what is tearing racing apart.
A large percentage of them have flawed business plans. There just isn't a market for them. Which series are you going to watch? Premier league, Grand Prix or the breakaway series?

A good business person does not merge a solid company with a dying one. That infection can spread. Business needs leadership and Tony George is a leader. You do not have to like him but he is making a change for the better. CART is out of control and has been for some time. Mr. Pook is a very capable person but can he save CART? You could be the best Captain in the world but even you cannot sop the Titanic from sinking. CART has hit the iceberg and it should be allowed to die in dignity. Sad to see it go

[Rob G]

Originally posted by lumepo03
Business needs leadership and Tony George is a leader. You do not have to like him but he is making a change for the better.

I fail to see how alienating fans, dumping those sweet turbos in favor of stuttering rev-limited n/a engines, removing the challenge of driving by adding an exorbitant amount of downforce, abandoning road and street circuits, diluting an already-small pool of sponsors, boasting a grid full of has-beens and wannabes, and holding almost all races in front of vacant grandstands can be considered "making a change for the better."

[aportinga]

What CART needs is an identity period. If they want to stick with road races exclusively then fine. But branching out into the worldly market could prove for more trouble then it's worth at the moment. Certainly BE and F1 in general DO NOT want CART to succeed where they have not - I'd even argue that they (F1) would do everything they could to preclude CART from moving to vital regions and running road races such as Brazil, Italy, Britain and so forth. So obviously (or at least too me) CART should not be opening herself up for problems while in the fragile condition they are in today.

What they need to do is focus on what they have - here's the current schedule...

Bold = Keep em
Non Bold = Dump em

Monterrey GP (Mexico)
- Slow circuit that is quite possibly one of the worst ever...we need room for better races so I vote to dump it
Long Beach GP (Street)
Milwaukee Mile (Oval)
- This is a classic and the most traditinal race in the US - CART should promote the hell out of it!
Leguna Seca
- Classic race but poorly attended and set in a very un-attractive background!
Portland International Raceway
Chicago Speedway (Oval)
- Dump it and add a CART race in the streets of Chicago to apease TARGET Sponsors - market it as the Monaco of the US!
Toronto - Exhibition Place
GP of Cleveland (Burke Lakefront Airport) Vancouver (Concord Pacific Place)
- Dump it - just look at the track!
Vancouver GP
- Slow track that's too tight for the big CART cars...sorry Canadians!
Mid-Ohio
Elkhart Lake
- CART shoud help in re-surfacing the circuit, add more seating and make the place more classy!
Montreal
- I predict and excellent show and fan attendance!
Denver (Street)
- Looks like it could be a decent street circuit!
Britian (Oval)
- Dump it!
Germany (Oval)
- Dump it as well - even if the IRL take both of these no one will show up!
GP of the America's (Miami)
- A great name with classic reference - just the direction CART needs to go!
Queensland Australia
California 500 (Oval)
- Only a matter of time before this race is gone
Mexico (Rodriguez Circuit)
Judging by Monterrey (Mexico) attendance, every grand stand whould be packed. Judging by the course itself...it should be a great race.

So that leaves us with 7 openings and one switch (Chicago from Oval to City Street Course).

Proposal....

Adelaide (1)
Japan (Aida) ... Replaces Motegi and may attract Japanese manufactures (2)
Long Beach (Runs directly against the Indy 500)
Milwaukee Mile (Heavy Promotions)
Toronto
Watkins Glenn (3)
Portland
Road Atlanta (4)
Denver
Mexico - Rodriguez
Sears Point (5)
Elhkart Lake
Montreal
Chicago - Downtown
Mid Ohio
Belle Island - Detroit (6)
Rio de Janiero (7)
Surfer's Paradise (Australia)
Miami

Also lets adopt a few classic names to headline the races... How about running the Milwakee Mile as the Vanderbilt Cup Race? Why not call the Miami race the "American Grand Prize"?

[Lexiz]

Originally posted by aportinga

GP of Cleveland (Burke Lakefront Airport)

Are you kidding?! Having been to that race several times, and consistantly watching it, I think it is a spectacular addition providing the BEST spectator viewing (you can see everything!) as well as some very unique racing.

[aportinga]

I've been there as well and agree. But compared to the new additions it's no match. It's character is...well it has none - it's an airport for cryin out loud.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by aportinga
[BAlso lets adopt a few classic names to headline the races... How about running the Milwakee Mile as the Vanderbilt Cup Race? Why not call the Miami race the "American Grand Prize"? [/B]

The Vanderbilt Cup is already in use. It's the trophy that goes to the CART champion at the end of the year. I like the American Grand Prize idea though.

Some other observations:

CART must keep Cleveland. It is one of their most popular events, and the track is conducive to great racing. At what other non-oval can you sit in the stands and see 90% of the track?

I also disagree with the alleged "unattractiveness" of Laguna Seca. I think it has a lot of character and looks great. My issue with it is the fact that all those short straights tend to make the racing processional, because they don't allow the drivers to work up a good head of steam.

If CART is going to have any ovals, it has to have more than one. It wouldn't make sense to spend all that time and money developing an oval package for just one race. I personally think CART should keep the diversity and race at least 5 or 6 ovals.

I do agree that CART should go back to the Detroit market, although the Belle Isle circuit has always been one of my least favorite ones.

Lastly, I don't see the logic in having two races in Australia and none in Europe.

[RiverRunner]

no way do you lose cleveland and laguna seca.
Unfortunately I had to work the houseboat last weekend and missed the trip to Monterey with my pals this year.According to them (and we've been going for six years now) the crowd was up a bunch this year.
CART would love to race at Watkins Glen,but they will not do the safety upgrades there to accomodate them.

[aportinga]

Just my opinion here....

The track itself (Leguna) is okay but the back drop is horrendous. As far as Cleveland... I just think we have too many MidWest races - and lets also remember that some of you are those calling for more international races... Obviously replications will be the first at the chopping blocks (Imola/Monza, Nurburg/Hockenheim).

Adelaide is a fantastic crowd and desperately would love to have another good OW race there! CART could you Mexica, Canada and Australia as a platform to move into more international markets in the future if that is what they chose to do. And lets face it...Adelaide would be a HUGE sell out!