F1 line vs Karting line
Started by
Orac
, Jun 12 2002 09:27
11 replies to this topic
#1
Orac
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Posted 12 June 2002 - 09:27
I've heard about, read about and seen drivers taking different racing lines in the wet to what the normal dry racing line would be. Commentators sometimes refer to drivers taking a "karting line" instead of a normal F1 line. Can anyone give me a quick description of how a normal F1 racing line and a karting line differ? Given that different drivers have different normal racing lines this might be a silly question anyway.
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#2
MattC
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Posted 12 June 2002 - 11:52
(Orac - are you a UK reader? I'm guessing you are, due to:
a) your username!
b) the fact that Brundle seems to use this description a lot on ITV.
anyway...)
I'm glad this has come up. I'm a keen student of the theory of racing lines and related topics, and I've done some semi-serious karting. But I don't know the answer! Here are my thoughts:
Go-karts and cars use fundamentally the same lines. There is more difference between classes of car racing than between cars and go-karts. Having said that, different types of car tend to have different optimum lines. My understanding is that it comes down to your vehicle's relative ability to accelerate/corner (braking is also an issue, but far less significant).
For example, you have a poor handling car with huge power-to-weight (e.g. V8 muscle car). The way the theory of traction circles works out, with this car you don't want to use the "classical" line of maximum constant radius. Instead, you want to finish turning the car quite early after the apex, so that you are pointing more-or-less down the straight and can apply all that horespower. This means you drive quite slowly round the "middle" sector of the corner on a tight-radius line, and then regain the lost time by accelerating earlier.
OR
you have a good handling car with low power-to-weight e.g. Formula Ford. You've got very little grunt, so you will exit corner not much faster than you apexed it. So you use the "classical" line of maximum radius, throughout the corner. This increases the apex speed, although you exit at about the same speed.
Still awake?
I believe that F1 cars are somewhere in between, but in slow corners their lack of downforce turns them into "muscle" cars, so they often appear to "creep" round the apex of hairpins etc.
However, go-karts tend to have little grunt in slow corners (as they are mostly single geared), so they corner like the Formula Ford.
In the wet, many corners have more grip OFF the racing line*, towards the outside of the corner. Thus the cars stay away from the apex, sometimes driving the "rim-shot", which tends to give a "classical" constant radius line.
A bit like a go-kart uses.
Q.E.D. Maybe...
I'm not entirely happy with this explanation, mainly because karts still clip the apex on slow corners (as a rule). So I'm hoping it's just one of those expressions that doesn't ENTIRELY stand up to analysis!
Matty
*Because the track with most rubber down tends to be slippier-when-wet.
a) your username!
b) the fact that Brundle seems to use this description a lot on ITV.
anyway...)
I'm glad this has come up. I'm a keen student of the theory of racing lines and related topics, and I've done some semi-serious karting. But I don't know the answer! Here are my thoughts:
Go-karts and cars use fundamentally the same lines. There is more difference between classes of car racing than between cars and go-karts. Having said that, different types of car tend to have different optimum lines. My understanding is that it comes down to your vehicle's relative ability to accelerate/corner (braking is also an issue, but far less significant).
For example, you have a poor handling car with huge power-to-weight (e.g. V8 muscle car). The way the theory of traction circles works out, with this car you don't want to use the "classical" line of maximum constant radius. Instead, you want to finish turning the car quite early after the apex, so that you are pointing more-or-less down the straight and can apply all that horespower. This means you drive quite slowly round the "middle" sector of the corner on a tight-radius line, and then regain the lost time by accelerating earlier.
OR
you have a good handling car with low power-to-weight e.g. Formula Ford. You've got very little grunt, so you will exit corner not much faster than you apexed it. So you use the "classical" line of maximum radius, throughout the corner. This increases the apex speed, although you exit at about the same speed.
Still awake?
I believe that F1 cars are somewhere in between, but in slow corners their lack of downforce turns them into "muscle" cars, so they often appear to "creep" round the apex of hairpins etc.
However, go-karts tend to have little grunt in slow corners (as they are mostly single geared), so they corner like the Formula Ford.
In the wet, many corners have more grip OFF the racing line*, towards the outside of the corner. Thus the cars stay away from the apex, sometimes driving the "rim-shot", which tends to give a "classical" constant radius line.
A bit like a go-kart uses.
Q.E.D. Maybe...
I'm not entirely happy with this explanation, mainly because karts still clip the apex on slow corners (as a rule). So I'm hoping it's just one of those expressions that doesn't ENTIRELY stand up to analysis!
Matty
*Because the track with most rubber down tends to be slippier-when-wet.
#3
Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
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Posted 12 June 2002 - 12:07
Question answered Orac 
#4
Orac
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Posted 12 June 2002 - 13:06
MattC: Thanks for your explaination. I can understand what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense when you think about it.
(BTW: I'm actually an Australian reader. I've used "orac" for years and years, and yes, it does come from Blake's 7. Our local coverage is essentially the ITV race coverage, so we get Brundle & Allen commentating.)
(BTW: I'm actually an Australian reader. I've used "orac" for years and years, and yes, it does come from Blake's 7. Our local coverage is essentially the ITV race coverage, so we get Brundle & Allen commentating.)
#5
pekarting
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Posted 12 June 2002 - 14:10
As MattC, I'm a semi serious kart driver.
I gree with him: the racing line depends on the features of the car you drive. If you drive a car
that handles well but has few power, you want to do the corners in a more "round" way, looking always for the maximum radius, while if you have few handling or good power you want to enter the corner later in order to have a more straight line at the exit, so you can make use of all the power.
In the "classic" karting classes, that don't have gearbox (i.e. ICA), as the engine looses much
RPMs on the slow bends, the drivers tend to try to loose the minimum possible speed, doing
a "round" line.
On the opposite, in the classes with gearbox, as the one I race (ICC), you want to use this
advantage, opening more the line when entering the corner so you have an easier exit and
can press more gas!
In the wet, the racing line changes quite much. The more wet the track is, the more the line changes. It may sound strange, but the rubber on the track (than gives you lots of grip on the dry) when it's wet slips very, very much! So you have to avoid it. Obviusly, you have to cross the rubber line in a moment or in other, but it consists on going over the rubber the less possible time. For example you can enter the turn later, where there is no rubber, and cross the rubber line near the apex, exiting the corner not all by the outside, where there's rubber. It's like with gearbox karts but much more exaggerated.
I hope I made myself understood...;)
And I hope I helped you a little.
Greetings!
Força De la Rosa!!
Força Alonso!!
Força Gené!!
I gree with him: the racing line depends on the features of the car you drive. If you drive a car
that handles well but has few power, you want to do the corners in a more "round" way, looking always for the maximum radius, while if you have few handling or good power you want to enter the corner later in order to have a more straight line at the exit, so you can make use of all the power.
In the "classic" karting classes, that don't have gearbox (i.e. ICA), as the engine looses much
RPMs on the slow bends, the drivers tend to try to loose the minimum possible speed, doing
a "round" line.
On the opposite, in the classes with gearbox, as the one I race (ICC), you want to use this
advantage, opening more the line when entering the corner so you have an easier exit and
can press more gas!
In the wet, the racing line changes quite much. The more wet the track is, the more the line changes. It may sound strange, but the rubber on the track (than gives you lots of grip on the dry) when it's wet slips very, very much! So you have to avoid it. Obviusly, you have to cross the rubber line in a moment or in other, but it consists on going over the rubber the less possible time. For example you can enter the turn later, where there is no rubber, and cross the rubber line near the apex, exiting the corner not all by the outside, where there's rubber. It's like with gearbox karts but much more exaggerated.
I hope I made myself understood...;)
And I hope I helped you a little.
Greetings!
Força De la Rosa!!
Força Alonso!!
Força Gené!!
#6
wawawa
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Posted 13 June 2002 - 05:09
Originally posted by pekarting
In the wet, the racing line changes quite much. The more wet the track is, the more the line changes. It may sound strange, but the rubber on the track (than gives you lots of grip on the dry) when it's wet slips very, very much! So you have to avoid it. Obviusly, you have to cross the rubber line in a moment or in other, but it consists on going over the rubber the less possible time. For example you can enter the turn later, where there is no rubber, and cross the rubber line near the apex, exiting the corner not all by the outside, where there's rubber. It's like with gearbox karts but much more exaggerated.
Hmm.... I remember Peter Windsor (sp?) getting all excited about Michael's drive at Nurburgring 2000. In particular, he was marvelling at his quick adaptation to the racing line once it started raining - it took MS "a little over a lap". With the modified line, he would cut across the original racing lines at right angles (at times). That fits in with your statement:
"Obviusly, you have to cross the rubber line in a moment or in other, but it consists on going over the rubber the less possible time."
Thanks for the info!
#7
AlesiUK
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Posted 30 June 2002 - 20:09
interesting topic,many ppl think f1 cars are becoming more and more like Karts to drive.
ive done a fair bit of serious Kart racing in my time and i agree with what most people have said.Basically Karting is like all other forms of racing,there are different styles,there is the smooth style,where you always try and keep the car perfectly balanced and going in the right direction,and there is the more agressive style,throwing the kart around,getting a bit sideways.Both have there benefits and drawbacks.
One of the fundemental differences is braking,racing theory always says try and brake in a staight line,in karts this is not so important,partly since the kart has no front brakes,only rear.I have often found that braking and turning in at the same time can make you quicker,especially in tighter corners.I would come flying up towards the corner,brake let,let the back wheels lock momenteraly and flick the steering in the desired direction.The result is the Kart snapping round and alowing me to get straight back on the power in a straight line out of the corner.
In the wet as mentioned it often benifits you to try a different line,especially because there is not as much resistance in the wet,so the line of least resistance is less important.
Another major difference is that in Kart the driver makes up a high percentage of the overall weight.and therefor that weight can be shifted around and used to help the Kart grip.A trick used in the wet was to come into a corner,lets say a right hander and do 2 things,firstly push down on the steering column,it makes a small difference but every little helps.2nd you would kind of throw your body weight towards the outside wheel,in this case the left.it has the effect of increasing the load on the outside wheel of the kart and helping it to grip.
i also have memories of many older drivers with single seater experience watching the lines the kart drivers were taking and not understanding,they would often comment on it.telling you should be going here and doing that etc.When they get in the kart they realise it is totally different.
Tony.
ive done a fair bit of serious Kart racing in my time and i agree with what most people have said.Basically Karting is like all other forms of racing,there are different styles,there is the smooth style,where you always try and keep the car perfectly balanced and going in the right direction,and there is the more agressive style,throwing the kart around,getting a bit sideways.Both have there benefits and drawbacks.
One of the fundemental differences is braking,racing theory always says try and brake in a staight line,in karts this is not so important,partly since the kart has no front brakes,only rear.I have often found that braking and turning in at the same time can make you quicker,especially in tighter corners.I would come flying up towards the corner,brake let,let the back wheels lock momenteraly and flick the steering in the desired direction.The result is the Kart snapping round and alowing me to get straight back on the power in a straight line out of the corner.
In the wet as mentioned it often benifits you to try a different line,especially because there is not as much resistance in the wet,so the line of least resistance is less important.
Another major difference is that in Kart the driver makes up a high percentage of the overall weight.and therefor that weight can be shifted around and used to help the Kart grip.A trick used in the wet was to come into a corner,lets say a right hander and do 2 things,firstly push down on the steering column,it makes a small difference but every little helps.2nd you would kind of throw your body weight towards the outside wheel,in this case the left.it has the effect of increasing the load on the outside wheel of the kart and helping it to grip.
i also have memories of many older drivers with single seater experience watching the lines the kart drivers were taking and not understanding,they would often comment on it.telling you should be going here and doing that etc.When they get in the kart they realise it is totally different.
Tony.
#8
pekarting
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Posted 01 July 2002 - 15:12
Originally posted by AlesiUK
One of the fundemental differences is braking,racing theory always says try and brake in a staight line,in karts this is not so important,partly since the kart has no front brakes,only rear.I have often found that braking and turning in at the same time can make you quicker,especially in tighter corners.I would come flying up towards the corner,brake let,let the back wheels lock momenteraly and flick the steering in the desired direction.The result is the Kart snapping round and alowing me to get straight back on the power in a straight line out of the corner.
AlesiUK, nowadays, where tyres are so soft and chassis give so grip, the slidding style is being left. Basicly because if you slide, as there is much grip (rubber on the track, soft tyres,...), you loose much speed and you wear the tyres more than needed. This is more true the more high the level is. This is, in European or World Championship races there is so much rubber on thre track that sliding that way can even put you on two wheels. And if you look how they drive, you will realise that the
better drivers are always the smoother drivers. However, in some circumstances with low grip,
you can slide that way. For example, I do it in winter when I drive in the afternoon and the sun has gone and the cold makes the track slippy. By the way, it's very funny!;) But no effective
with grip on the track
About the brakes, 125cc shifter karts like the one I drive (Inter-C and Formula-C classes) have front brakes, and this makes a lot of diference! I set up the braking balance passing almost all
power to the front (the important wheels when you brake, as much of the weight goes there).
This way, I have a powerful braking and it lets me enter the corners with still a bit of brakes without having the kart changing it's path (not like with rear brakes where the kart oversteers
if you enter the corners braking).
And body working, yes... a great help in the wet!
#9
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 01 July 2002 - 18:54
If I wanted to get a kart to keep my technique and reflexes sharp during the off season, what would be the ideal? Id hope to avoid something where I have to drastically modify my driving style to get the most out of it, so something similar to a proper 'car' I understand I should get a direct driver over a gearbox because it teaches you about smoothness and tends to modify your mistakes. But what about brakes, only rears or fronts and rear axle?
#10
AlesiUK
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Posted 01 July 2002 - 22:59
pekarting,
Agree with what you are saying about the high grip levels,some of these guys at euro level are in danger of flipping karts they have so much grip.that makes it a bit harder to slide the kart but you can still do it to a lesser extent.I would suggest that these guys still "Chuck" the kart around a fair bit.Braking late and flicking it into the corners is still a very quick technique,you just have to judge it so you dont scrub off to much speed.
Of course as you say the braking technique is very different in a gearbox kart with 4 wheel braking.locking the brakes in one of those is not good at all!
Agree with what you are saying about the high grip levels,some of these guys at euro level are in danger of flipping karts they have so much grip.that makes it a bit harder to slide the kart but you can still do it to a lesser extent.I would suggest that these guys still "Chuck" the kart around a fair bit.Braking late and flicking it into the corners is still a very quick technique,you just have to judge it so you dont scrub off to much speed.
Of course as you say the braking technique is very different in a gearbox kart with 4 wheel braking.locking the brakes in one of those is not good at all!
#11
pekarting
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 06:59
Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
If I wanted to get a kart to keep my technique and reflexes sharp during the off season, what would be the ideal? Id hope to avoid something where I have to drastically modify my driving style to get the most out of it, so something similar to a proper 'car' I understand I should get a direct driver over a gearbox because it teaches you about smoothness and tends to modify your mistakes. But what about brakes, only rears or fronts and rear axle?
Ross,
Direct drive karts, as you say, need to be driven smoother. Yes, good for improving your smoothness. I don't know which car class you drive, but I think that more or less you will have to change your style.
On the other side, gearbox karts are much more similar to a "formula" car, because of the gearbox and because of the front brakes. Thought you also need smoothness, the driving is very similar to a car (in the way you brake, you push gas, you take the line). And a big difference with smaller kart classes is that gearbox karts are much more physically demanding. You need more reflexes and more strenght, it makes you more tired because of the gear change work and the bigger acceleration and deceleration. The sensations are stronger. The bad side is that until you have all the control of the machine you tend to put all your attention on controlling the kart rather than improving your driving. It depends on each one skills.
In my karting club thare are some people that race with gearbox karts as a training for it's car races (Formula Renault, Seat Leon Cup, Formula Nissan, ...).
Pesonally, I'd try gearbox. Maybe because I'm used to it
Another factor is the price. Gearbox karts are more expensive for buying but cheaper for maintenance (and easier too).
About the brakes, I've seen some direct drive karts with front brakes (smaller than the gearbox karts ones). I haven't tried them, but maybe it can give you a more car-similar feel.
Greetings,
#12
AlesiUK
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 10:40
Do you drive single seater,or saloon/stock cars ross?
If it is the latter then karting may not really benifit you.A kart is very similar to a single seater,with the low centre of gravity and also a kart is very light,so the weight transfer is not so much as a car.
If it is the latter then karting may not really benifit you.A kart is very similar to a single seater,with the low centre of gravity and also a kart is very light,so the weight transfer is not so much as a car.
