59 replies to this topic

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Hey people. i was just on the internet and saw this website and was amazed at how Formula One cars have changed over the years. The Mclaren "MP4" series was started back in 1981 and just look at they have changed/Evolved to meet the regulations over the years. look at the "Pigs" of 1981 > 1982 to the sleek ulta-sleek modern designs of the 1990's (particularly from 1997 > onwards) i personally think that the 1999 and 2000 are the best looking models made by Mclaren, the 2001 and 2002 have really high noses and dont look as mean as the 1998 > 2000 cars, HOPE you like Them



1981 - Mclaren MP4
1982 - Mclaren MP4-1B
1983 - Mclaren MP4-1C
1984 - Mclaren MP4-2
1985 - Mclaren MP4-2B
1986 - Mclaren MP4-2C
1987 - Mclaren MP4-3
1988 - Mclaren MP4-4
1989 - Mclaren MP4 -5
1990 - Mclaren MP4-5B
1991 - Mclaren MP4 -6
1992 - Mclaren MP4-7
1993 - Mclaren MP4-8
1994 - Mclaren MP4-9
1995 - Mclaren MP4-10
1996 - Mclaren MP4-11
1997 - Mclaren MP4-12
1998 - Mclaren MP4-13
1999 - Mclaren MP4-14
2000 - Mclaren MP4-15
2001 - Mclaren MP4-16
2002 - Mclaren MP4-17

[brett_sequeira]

Thanks what a great thread. I love the cars. But by the way does anyone feel that the Mp4 has outlived its design and something innovative is needed.

[se7en_24]

I so miss that sleek 1995 MP4-10

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by se7en_24
I so miss that sleek 1995 MP4-10

oooh yeah me too! hehe lol

wasnt that designed around Nigel Mansell's belly or something, hence the bulky proportions of the car? lol

[The Rock]

thanks for the picutres.My favorite car would have to be 1993 or the 1989 one.
Give me slicks and wide cars any day of the week over the modern ones since 98, well maybe not the 95 Mclaren, dear oh dear.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by brett_sequeira
Thanks what a great thread.

thanx Brett, yeah i agree that Mclaren need to try something a little more "different" now, but rules will be rules, i think that the MP4 name is here to stay for a long time, but it needs "lifting" the cars seem a little too conservative, they should try something different and uncoservativce like Ferrari with the front nose and wing, or Sauber with the twin keel (i know they already have), or maybe a small rear end like the Ferrari's (looks like a coke bottle from the top) or maybe a gearbox/engine thing too, im sure that would surpise alot of people, Mclaren havent surpised us a great deal in the last 3 years, 1997 was the biggest surpise with the Livery but not much since then

[Alfisti]

Wow didn't things change from 96 to 97 huh ... wow.

95 car is butt ugly.

[zango]

What changed with regards to technical regulations in 89? Notice how tall the engine section is 89 onwards compared to 88 and before. Is that the year they went from Turbo's to NA?

Did the MP4-1B really have no front wing (what would be the benifit?) or is that picture right after an accident? It seems a little odd that the MP4 has a front wing and so does 1C. Otherwise the three cars are quiet similar.

-Z

[No27]

Perhaps it's nostalgia, but I feel the cars started to look ugly around 1992, the one that had the curved nose for the first time. Since they use the Silberpfeilen livery I thought the McLarens looked pretty high-tech and glamorous as well. But take a look at the 1997 exercise, it looks like a tractor!

Is anybody else interested in the observation that according to these pictures. McLaren started to run bargeboards only in 1996.

[Cociani]

Originally posted by zango

Did the MP4-1B really have no front wing (what would be the benifit?) or is that picture right after an accident? It seems a little odd that the MP4 has a front wing and so does 1C. Otherwise the three cars are quiet similar.

-Z

The cars were using full ground effect venturi tunnel bottoms in those days to generate downforce, the front and rear wings were largely used to adjust the cars though they did produce a fair amount of downforce too. On higher speed circuits many teams including Ferrari would run without the front wing to reduce drag. Latter the FIA mandated flat bottoms and wings became far more important for creating downforce again....

[RJL]

Zango

Yes the low back cars (where the roll bar is clearly visible) are from the turbo era. The high back cars (where the roll bar is incorporated into the over head air scoop) are aspros.

The picture of the car without the front wing is from the ground-effects era, when the cars were generating loads of downforce with underbody tunnels in the sidepods. The cars weren't wingless everywhere, just at certain tracks where it was deemed to be advantageous. There were several teams (sometimes) not running a front wing in these years (roughly '79- 82). I can recall pictures of Piquets' Brabham, Villeneuve's Ferrari, and Jones' Williams in this configuration at selected weekends. I guess they were getting sufficient grip without the wing. In '83, when ground effects were banned, this practise disappeared.

Something else worth noting is the change in sidepod shape from '82 (full ground effects tunnels) to '83 (flat bottom). I believe McLaren's John Barnard was the first to introduce the coke bottle waisting ahead of the rear wheels in '83. This was so successfull that it was soon copied by every other team on the grid.

Completely off topic the '83 & '84 Gordon Murray Brabhams were very cool interpretations of flat bottomed cars. Definitely more radical than the Macs. The '83 took Nelson Piquet to a WDC.

[DOHC]

RJL I agree. As for the 1981 and 82 cars, they were no "pigs" but may look like pigs with today's eyes. That look was necessary when the side pods had to accommodate the venturi tunnels for the ground effect. I still think those cars look cool.

And the last turbocharged year was 1988. After that the high airboxes came back again. They were around also in the 70s but disappeared for a while, also from the normally aspirated cars, in the late 70s.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

how did tunnel bottoms and those "skirt" things that alot of people talk about work? im very curious, as ive been going over it in my mind and cant work it out, or find anything on the internet

[DOHC]

Check here:

http://www.ddavid.co...la1/lotus79.htm

You'll see the venturi tunnels under the sidepod in an upside down Lotus 79.

Teh way it worked was that the tunnel had a fairly large opening at the front, then narrowed and expanded again to a large exit at the rear of the car. The rear end was in effect was just a huge diffuser.

Because the airflow in the tunnel had to accelerate through the narrow part of the tunnel it had higher velocity there, and according to Bernoulli's equation you then get a pressure drop, equal to rho*v^2 / 2, where v is air velocity and rho is air density. This low pressure would suck the car to the ground. The skirts were needed to seal the sidepods to the ground, to prevent external air from entering the low pressure area under the car.

[TAB666]

1990 - Mclaren MP4-5B , best looking mclaren ever

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by DOHC
Check here:

http://www.ddavid.co...la1/lotus79.htm

You'll see the venturi tunnels under the sidepod in an upside down Lotus 79.

Teh way it worked was that the tunnel had a fairly large opening at the front, then narrowed and expanded again to a large exit at the rear of the car. The rear end was in effect was just a huge diffuser.

Because the airflow in the tunnel had to accelerate through the narrow part of the tunnel it had higher velocity there, and according to Bernoulli's equation you then get a pressure drop, equal to rho*v^2 / 2, where v is air velocity and rho is air density. This low pressure would suck the car to the ground. The skirts were needed to seal the sidepods to the ground, to prevent external air from entering the low pressure area under the car.

thanx for that DOHC

[mclarensmps]

'88 MP4-4, The most streamlined looking thing ever! If only they had helmets to match that aero

[DOHC]

Originally posted by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
thanx for that DOHC

You're welcome!

If you are interested in Macs and how they developed over the years, there are photos of this type (some of them might even be from the book) in the book "McLaren Formula 1" by photographer Rainer Schlegelmilch. But from your nick I assume that Ferraris are more interesting to you. Lucky you! Schlegelmilch also has a book "Ferrari Formula 1" which is very similar in style. You can follow a lot, mostly in pics, about the development of Ferraris there.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by The Big Guns
'88 MP4-4, The most streamlined looking thing ever! If only they had helmets to match that aero

looks kinda flat like a tray to me, dunno why i think that
but having said that,it was the most dominant grand prix car ever made (14 out of 15 wins in 1988 - not a bad record!) so it must have been pretty effective

[DOHC]

No, no, not flat. Look at the red curved surfaces in the darwing from the underside in that site. Those are the tops of the venturi tunnels. The road is the bottom. The two yellow strips are the skirts.

The center of the monocoque was flat though, just like they are today.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by DOHC


You're welcome!

If you are interested in Macs and how they developed over the years, there are photos of this type (some of them might even be from the book) in the book "McLaren Formula 1" by photographer Rainer Schlegelmilch. But from your nick I assume that Ferraris are more interesting to you. Lucky you! Schlegelmilch also has a book "Ferrari Formula 1" which is very similar in style. You can follow a lot, mostly in pics, about the development of Ferraris there.

haha cheers mate, i made the nick name in 2001 when i used to be a major Ferrari fanatic hehe, but over 2002 ive suddenly started supporting the underdogs Mclaren and Williams now, i dunno why, i think the Ferrari domination is pretty boring to be honest, the 1999 F1 season was the best season EVER in my opinion where i was gunning for Ferrari ALL the way, same with 2000 as it was pretty close, most of 2001 as well but then it became boring as well when Schumacher starting dominating all the time, so i looked to Montoya, Hakkinen and DC to provide me with something entertaining and got it from Monza onwards , 2002 has been VERY boring, very much like 1992, so when the Williams or Mac win i go pretty wild lol

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by DOHC
No, no, not flat. Look at the red curved surfaces in the darwing from the underside in that site. Those are the tops of the venturi tunnels. The road is the bottom. The two yellow strips are the skirts.

The center of the monocoque was flat though, just like they are today.

haha i wasnt referring to the Lotus 79 mate hehe, i was talking about the Mclaren MP4-4 of 1988

[Haz 2]

Awesome post. I like the older cars myself. The low nose, wide track, big slick look is much better then the narrow, high nosed, fragile looking cars we have today.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by Haz 2
Awesome post. I like the older cars myself. The low nose, wide track, big slick look is much better then the narrow, high nosed, fragile looking cars we have today.

nah i have to disagree there mate, i dont like the old looking "butch" cars from the 80's, i prefer the more modern looking "feminine" cars of today, specially from 1997 onwards, dont know why, i think they just look prettier and better on the screen hehe

[DOHC]

Originally posted by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001
haha i wasnt referring to the Lotus 79 mate hehe, i was talking about the Mclaren MP4-4 of 1988

Sorry, seems I can't read plain text. I guess I was taking part in too many different threads for the moment...

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by DOHC


Sorry, seems I can't read plain text. I guess I was taking part in too many different threads for the moment...

hehe i do it all the time mate , ill be off now, im well tired today for some reason, be back online 2morrow, Goodnight all and take care

AJ

[Vunz]

MP4-10 the car that had a dog house for an airbox

Seriously, how much did the 1996 MP4-11 and the 1997 MP4-12 differ really apart from livery, they don't look that different.

[Liam]

But by the way does anyone feel that the Mp4 has outlived its design and something innovative is needed.

They are called MP4 since Ron Dennis and Gorden Murray, as Project 4 bought the McLaren formula one team. Bruce had named his cars M1 M2 etc, and that system had been kept until '80. When Project 4 bought them they changed the naming scheme to MP4-1 for Mclaren Project 4 - 1.

It's wonderfull looking at F1 cars over the years. Starting in the late 50's with the rear engined Cooper, on to the cigar shaped Lotus 25, watch as wings get added to the cigar cars, first way up in the air, then down to where we know them today. Then they start using engine covers, initially jusr air boxes, then full covers. At the same time, they mov ehte cooling radiators from the front of thecar to the sides and sidepods are born. This allows a wedge shape a the front to develop. The 80's see ground effect and we see big low sidepods and even no front wings. Once thats banned they go back to the sidepods as we know them, but move the driver behind the front axle line. Eventually Ferrari really narrow the front of the car, and Tyrell introduce the high nose. The the FIA start with a narrower track and smaller rear wing and then add all that ockpit protection and the front wing height rules and we end up where we are now. It's easy to see the current cars as an evolution rather than the unconnected beasts they initially look.

Indeed, sportscars, which still look simillar on the outside are the ones that have really changed.

[Paste]

The MP4-5 is one of the best looking racing cars ever built.

[Jhope]

It was Marlboro Project 4 until 1996 IIRC. Only in 1997 did they change it to McLaren Project 4.

[tinman]

Hey great post. But judging from your name, don't you want to scour for the same format this time featuring ferrari cars andut them side by side with the mc's?

[The Fazz]

I was particularly impressed by the big differences between the MP4/2 & 3s compared to the MP4/4. The Honda turbo must have been a much more compact unit compared to the TAG engine. Those MP4/2 series were bloody fat.

The 4/10 amd 4/11s must surely be the ugliest cars McLaren has produced. My favourites are the MP4/6, MP4/7 and MP4/8s.

[mclarensmps]

Visible differences between the '96 11 and the '97 12:

a) Angular and larger airbox
b) Totally different sidepods, with the earler having a more inward curved shape than the latter
c) Nose is less round, more flat, lower and therefore, has differently shaped uprights
d) Endplates of the latter are more intricately shaped
e) Slightly steeperd engine cover with a more gradual decline (rather than the abrupt one from the 11) and it looks slightly narrower unless my eyes are playing tricks on me
f) Rear wing mo longer has the middle vertical partition-like thing
g) Front suspension (what little i can see) certainly looks much more different and more sturdy indicating suspension design changes which may very well have been incorporated in the back as well.



Oh well, thats my 2 cents

[silver fan]

Originally posted by No27
Is anybody else interested in the observation that according to these pictures. McLaren started to run bargeboards only in 1996.

They actually started using them back in 93 although not at all the races. From memory it wasn't until 95/96 when there was a big shake up with the aero regs that barge boards were used all the time.

[Todd]

Originally posted by The Fazz
I was particularly impressed by the big differences between the MP4/2 & 3s compared to the MP4/4. The Honda turbo must have been a much more compact unit compared to the TAG engine. Those MP4/2 series were bloody fat.

The relative sizes of the engines was not much of a factor. In 1988, the rules only allowed 150 liters of fuel for the turbos. When the MP4-2 was built, it had a 220 liter fuel cell. The 1987 regulations set the limit at 195 liters. Whatever, the MP4-4 was smaller because the regulations meant that there was volume to contain.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by tinman
Hey great post. But judging from your name, don't you want to scour for the same format this time featuring ferrari cars andut them side by side with the mc's?

it did occur to me, but i couldnt find a similar webpage on Ferrari's like i could on the Mclaren's, pity really as we could really have seen the differences between the two teams and how they evolved over the years , actually thats a good comment bout my username, im actually finding myself supporting Ferrari less and less this year (even tho they are my favourite team ), i think with them dominating its become a little too boring being a Ferrari fan (well me anyway ), i was a Ferrari fanatic from 1997 > 2000, supported them all the way, supported them for most of the 2001 season (hence the name) and then got bored when Schumacer wrapped the title up so early and in 2002 turned my attention to Montoya,DC, Williams and Mclaren

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by Vunz
MP4-10 the car that had a dog house for an airbox

Seriously, how much did the 1996 MP4-11 and the 1997 MP4-12 differ really apart from livery, they don't look that different.

yeah thats what i thought too :-

•
•

[Math Soucy]

My memory is likely failing me again, but was the 1995 MP4-10 the car that sported that strange rear-wing configuration at Monaco(??) or is this the wrong year. I thought I remember a smaller rear wing mounted in addition. My technical knowledge is woeful.

[silver fan]

Yep it was the MP4-10 that sported the hideous mid-wing fortunately it was only on the high downforce circuits that it was used. I've got some pics somewhere of that car from a low angle front-on with MH at the wheel, it actualy looks pretty good. It's only when you see the car from side-on that it looks like a dog.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

was the MP4-10 so ugly because the chassis had to be built around Nigel Mansell or something? i can think of no other obvious reason, the rules seemed to be pretty stable at the time and there wasnt that much change from the 1993 and 1994 cars, and the in 1995 they came out with the "tank" and after Mansell left, they returned to more "sexier" looking cars, maybe its just me?

[Garagiste]

Nah, the MP4-10 was already designed before Mansell was signed - hence the fact he couldn't fit into it. I doubt the revisions then made were responsible for turning a pretty car into a pig, though maybe they didn't help.
Regarding the 96 and 97 cars, yes they look similar from the cockpit back, but look at the nose & front wing - they're completely different.
Ta for the pics BTW.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by Garagiste
Nah, the MP4-10 was already designed before Mansell was signed - hence the fact he couldn't fit into it. I doubt the revisions then made were responsible for turning a pretty car into a pig, though maybe they didn't help.
Regarding the 96 and 97 cars, yes they look similar from the cockpit back, but look at the nose & front wing - they're completely different.
Ta for the pics BTW.

thanx

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by silver fan


They actually started using them back in 93 although not at all the races. From memory it wasn't until 95/96 when there was a big shake up with the aero regs that barge boards were used all the time.

yup, heres what the bargeboards looked like in 1993, fairly uncomplicated things and look totally different from todays sophisticated devices

1993 bargeboard•

[mp4]

Originally posted by Ferrari_F1_fan_2001

...I think that the MP4 name is here to stay for a long time...

I sure hope so or I'll have to get a new name...
For my living room, though, I'd like an MP4/8 please!

[nitro]

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by nitro

Didnt the same thing happen in 1999 too?

[Boom]

Love the MP4-5 and 5B. Those were the days of low sidepods, remember the Lotus?

Doesn't the MP4-4 look like current Champ cars?

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Originally posted by Boom
Love the MP4-5 and 5B. Those were the days of low sidepods, remember the Lotus?

Doesn't the MP4-4 look like current Champ cars?

I think the MP4-4 looks abit like a tray with wheels, though it still is pretty stunning, and it didnt half go like stink! (15 wins out of 16 races! )

[John B]

Nice picture sequence. As far as asthetics I also liked the 1981-82 cars in general, and the 1995 and 1989/90 aren't so good.....one issue with the smaller 1988 bodywork is the decreased space available for sponsors!

[Powersteer]

The MP4 series is from 1980 onwards. What were they called before??? MP3 ???? How come it never changed from MP4 and when will we get the MP5?? After Ron retires?