When looking at the Indy entry lists 1946-1953, I am a little bit confused about which Maserati was allocated to each driver.
We all know there were 3 chassis 8 CTF built and 2 chassis 8CL (of which only one went to Indy in 46, yje other one, # 3034, was raced in the '40 "500" by Raúl Riganti and stayed in Argentina after the war).
In 1950, there also were 2 chassis 8CLT built for Indy, but they never went to the States, being sold to Freddy Zambucka of New Zealand instead.
Listing the 4 mentioned cars is not easy as they soon were fitted with Offenhauser engines instead of the original 8C s/c.
The only one chassis I traced without huge mistake is the 8CTF # 3032, ex-Wilbur Shaw 1940-1941.
- Ted Horn 46, 47, 48. Lee Wallard 49. Vukovich 50. Entered 51 but did not practise.
Other Maserati (8 CTF # 3030 & 3031) entries were the following :
1946 — Emil Andres (Brisko's) ; Russ Snowberger (R A Cott's)
1947 — Snowberger ((Maserati engine, entered by Cott) ; Les Anderson (Offy engine)
1948 — Harry McQuinn (Maserati engine) ; Paul Russo (Offy engine, entered by Cott)
1949 — Henry Banks (Maserati engine, entered by Cott)
1950 — Danny Kladis (Maserati engine, entered by Cott) ; Spider Webb (Offy, also entered by Cott)
1951 — McDowell (Offy — or was it 8CL # 3035 ?) ; Bud Sennett (Maserati engine, entered by Barzda, heavily crashed in practice)
1952 — Joe Barzda (Offy)
1953 — Joe Barzda (Maserati engine)
The 8CL # 3035 had this history : 1946 Villoresi, then returned to Europe (shared by Sommer & Louveau at Lille). Raced 1948 in Argentina by Farina. Back to Indy 1949, Agabashian. 1950 Henry Banks (Offy engine). Subsequently ? I do not know.
In 1946, some European entries are easy to fill. Harry Schell entered 2 Maseratis, 8CM # 3022 for Louis Gérard (with a 6C engine) and 8CM # 3010 for himself ; both cars returned to Europe where they were entered episodically in races & hillclimbs onto 1949.
Scuderia Milano entered two 4CL (1500 cc !) for Nalon and Varzi (the latter dnq).
But what tipo were all the other Maserati entries ?
1946 — Tommy Hinnershitz (Maserati engine, entered by Milt Marion)
1946 to 1949 — Jim Brubaker (Maserati engine) — a destroked V8RI ?
1950 — Mike Burch (Maserati engine, entered by Ed Shreve — the Brubaker car ?) ; Manuel Ayulo (Offy engine, entered by Weinberg)
1951 — Joe Barzda (Offy engine — a 8CTF if McDowell's was in the 8CL ?)
1952 — Jackie Holmes, Carl Forberg & Joe Barzda all entered & failed to qualify, all Offy-powered.
1953 — Roy Neuman & Joe Barzda, both Maserati-powered.
I know that the 4 chassis V8RI were racing in the USA in 1937, perhaps these ones can fill the gap ?
Or some 8CM, sold to the USA just before or after WWII ?
Is Sherlock Holmes present there in TNF ?
Maseratis at Indy post war
Started by
Jimmy Piget
, Jun 12 2002 16:56
13 replies to this topic
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#2
fines
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Posted 12 June 2002 - 18:18
I looked into this several months ago, here's my view:
3030: 1940 LeBegue/Dreyfus, 1941 Nalon, 1946 Andres, 1948 McQuinn
3031: 1940 Dreyfus, 1941 Rose, 1946 Snowberger/Nalon, 1947 Snowberger, 1948 Russo, 1949 Hanks/Banks (DNS), 1950 Webb
3032: 1939-41 Shaw, 1946-48 Horn, 1949 Wallard, 1950 Vukovich (DNS)
3034: 1940 Riganti
3035: 1946 Villoresi, 1949 Agabashian, 1950 Banks/Agabashian
1939/40 Banks was a V8RI (both years DNS), also the Brubaker car in 1946-48.
3030: 1940 LeBegue/Dreyfus, 1941 Nalon, 1946 Andres, 1948 McQuinn
3031: 1940 Dreyfus, 1941 Rose, 1946 Snowberger/Nalon, 1947 Snowberger, 1948 Russo, 1949 Hanks/Banks (DNS), 1950 Webb
3032: 1939-41 Shaw, 1946-48 Horn, 1949 Wallard, 1950 Vukovich (DNS)
3034: 1940 Riganti
3035: 1946 Villoresi, 1949 Agabashian, 1950 Banks/Agabashian
1939/40 Banks was a V8RI (both years DNS), also the Brubaker car in 1946-48.
#3
O Volante
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Posted 02 July 2002 - 17:44
... and another very interesting topic!
So I'm not alone to think McDowell drove in 1951 the 8CL 3035 ... In fact, since quite some time I think the three 8CTFs and the one 8CL in the USA became seriously mixed up in that year. Before, I would think, the records of the individual cars are fairly clear. In 1950 the four cars were matched in two pairs: Richard Cott had 3030 and 3031, while 3032 and 3035 were with the "Indianapolis Race Cars Inc".
For 1951, however, the standard story is that Johnny McDowell, who qualified but retired from the race, was entered by ‘Maserati Race Cars’ and used 8CTF 3030, this said to be Offenhauser engined, while ‘Maserati Race Cars’ other entry, which did not make it into the race, is said to have been 3032. The third 8CTF, 3031, is said to to have been entered by Joe Barzda, and crashed during practice by Bud Sennett. There is nothing about the 8CL. As it can be see, there is again one pair of cars …
The 1951 Indy 500 entry list made available by Phil Harms’ homepage has also a pair, but a different one: According to him, there was the ‘W and J Spl’ – McDowell’s Offy engined car that qualified and retired – plus a Maserati-Offy entered by Joe Barzda for Joe Barzda, which spun qualifying, and a Maserati with original engine entered by Auto Accessories/Joe Barzda for Bud Sennett, which was wrecked qualifying – no info about a fourth car …
How to bring these differing informations in line? I assume there were also in 1951 two pairs of cars, which necessarily requires the inclusion of the 8CL. However, based on the standard indentifications given above, you need to split up both the 1950 pairs to get the two new 1951 pairs – and that is something I find very unlikely! To make it short: After checking all possible combinations in view of the known pieces of information, all seems to fit only if one assumes that the McDowell car was wrongly identified as 3030, being in fact 3035! In other words, it means the 1950 ‘Indianapolis Race Cars Inc’ machinery had become in 1951 the ‘Maserati Race Cars’, while Barzda had got the two Cott cars – one apparently only temporarily.
Unfortunately I have no hard evidence to proof the story took this bend, but two observations: first, on a picture of the McDowell car I have seen it looks very much like the 8CL 3035 – especially the ‘headrest’ is prominent! – but somebody may have modified a 8CTF to look like that. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, it is well known both 8CTF 3032 and the 8CL 3035 resurfaced TOGETHER in December 1954, when they were sold to Tony Hulman …
Somebody out there with relevant pictures???
So I'm not alone to think McDowell drove in 1951 the 8CL 3035 ... In fact, since quite some time I think the three 8CTFs and the one 8CL in the USA became seriously mixed up in that year. Before, I would think, the records of the individual cars are fairly clear. In 1950 the four cars were matched in two pairs: Richard Cott had 3030 and 3031, while 3032 and 3035 were with the "Indianapolis Race Cars Inc".
For 1951, however, the standard story is that Johnny McDowell, who qualified but retired from the race, was entered by ‘Maserati Race Cars’ and used 8CTF 3030, this said to be Offenhauser engined, while ‘Maserati Race Cars’ other entry, which did not make it into the race, is said to have been 3032. The third 8CTF, 3031, is said to to have been entered by Joe Barzda, and crashed during practice by Bud Sennett. There is nothing about the 8CL. As it can be see, there is again one pair of cars …
The 1951 Indy 500 entry list made available by Phil Harms’ homepage has also a pair, but a different one: According to him, there was the ‘W and J Spl’ – McDowell’s Offy engined car that qualified and retired – plus a Maserati-Offy entered by Joe Barzda for Joe Barzda, which spun qualifying, and a Maserati with original engine entered by Auto Accessories/Joe Barzda for Bud Sennett, which was wrecked qualifying – no info about a fourth car …
How to bring these differing informations in line? I assume there were also in 1951 two pairs of cars, which necessarily requires the inclusion of the 8CL. However, based on the standard indentifications given above, you need to split up both the 1950 pairs to get the two new 1951 pairs – and that is something I find very unlikely! To make it short: After checking all possible combinations in view of the known pieces of information, all seems to fit only if one assumes that the McDowell car was wrongly identified as 3030, being in fact 3035! In other words, it means the 1950 ‘Indianapolis Race Cars Inc’ machinery had become in 1951 the ‘Maserati Race Cars’, while Barzda had got the two Cott cars – one apparently only temporarily.
Unfortunately I have no hard evidence to proof the story took this bend, but two observations: first, on a picture of the McDowell car I have seen it looks very much like the 8CL 3035 – especially the ‘headrest’ is prominent! – but somebody may have modified a 8CTF to look like that. Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, it is well known both 8CTF 3032 and the 8CL 3035 resurfaced TOGETHER in December 1954, when they were sold to Tony Hulman …
Somebody out there with relevant pictures???
#4
fines
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Posted 02 July 2002 - 19:51
I'm fairly certain that McDowell's car in 1951 was the Banks/Agabashian car the year before! "Maserati Race Cars" was another name for "Indianapolis Race Cars", a consortium of Indianapolis business men that took over the old Mike Boyle stable.
Does anyone of you know which 4CLT/48 was entered by Morgan Engineering as #72 in 1957? Danny Kladis qualified it too slow (by some margin!) and put in on top of the wall at Milwaukee in June.
Does anyone of you know which 4CLT/48 was entered by Morgan Engineering as #72 in 1957? Danny Kladis qualified it too slow (by some margin!) and put in on top of the wall at Milwaukee in June.
#5
David McKinney
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Posted 02 July 2002 - 21:13
#1604, I believe
#6
cabianca
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 04:52
I agree with Fines as far as he goes. However, there is the matter of V8Ris to confuse the matter. Let's clear them up and go from there.
4501, 1939- #28 G. Robson DNQ, 1946-#68 J. Brubaker DNQ, 1947-#86 Brubaker DNQ, 1948-#69 Brubaker DNQ, 1948-#14 Brubaker DNQ, 1949-#79 Brubaker DNQ
4502, 1939-#53 Deacon Litz DNQ (3.0 engine), 1946-#34 T. Hinnershitz DNQ, 1948-#69 Walt Brown DNQ, 1949-#63 Jim Rathmann DNQ (Offy), 1950-#85 Jim Rigsby/Manny Ayulo DNQ
4503
4504, 1939-Henry Banks DNQ, 1940-Banks DNQ
Questions:
1) Is everyone in agreement that Russo was in 3031 in 1948. I have 3035 with a ?
2) I have Hanks/Banks in 3030 in 1949, not 3031. Comments.
3) I have Sennett in 3030 in 1950 #51 DNQ
My missing numbers are:
1946
#35 Alfa Model Unknown Louis Gerand DNQ
# 36 Maserati 6C34 Louis Gerand DNQ
#46 Maserati Model Unknown Harry Schell DNQ
#53 Maserati 4CL Varzi DNQ
#54 Maserati 4CL Duke Nalon 22nd
1947
#58 Alfa Model Unknown Offy engine DNQ L. Anderson 11th
1949
#16 Alfa 308 Tony Bettenhausen DNQ
1951
#12 Maserati 8CTF? Offy engine J. McDowell 32nd
1952
#23 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine C. Forberg DNQ
#41 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine J. Holmes DNQ
#53 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine J. Barzda DNQ I have entrant as California Speed Equipment
1953
#43 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine R. Neuman DNQ
1957
#72 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine Danny Kladis DNQ
#89 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine Spider Webb DNQ
4501, 1939- #28 G. Robson DNQ, 1946-#68 J. Brubaker DNQ, 1947-#86 Brubaker DNQ, 1948-#69 Brubaker DNQ, 1948-#14 Brubaker DNQ, 1949-#79 Brubaker DNQ
4502, 1939-#53 Deacon Litz DNQ (3.0 engine), 1946-#34 T. Hinnershitz DNQ, 1948-#69 Walt Brown DNQ, 1949-#63 Jim Rathmann DNQ (Offy), 1950-#85 Jim Rigsby/Manny Ayulo DNQ
4503
4504, 1939-Henry Banks DNQ, 1940-Banks DNQ
Questions:
1) Is everyone in agreement that Russo was in 3031 in 1948. I have 3035 with a ?
2) I have Hanks/Banks in 3030 in 1949, not 3031. Comments.
3) I have Sennett in 3030 in 1950 #51 DNQ
My missing numbers are:
1946
#35 Alfa Model Unknown Louis Gerand DNQ
# 36 Maserati 6C34 Louis Gerand DNQ
#46 Maserati Model Unknown Harry Schell DNQ
#53 Maserati 4CL Varzi DNQ
#54 Maserati 4CL Duke Nalon 22nd
1947
#58 Alfa Model Unknown Offy engine DNQ L. Anderson 11th
1949
#16 Alfa 308 Tony Bettenhausen DNQ
1951
#12 Maserati 8CTF? Offy engine J. McDowell 32nd
1952
#23 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine C. Forberg DNQ
#41 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine J. Holmes DNQ
#53 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine J. Barzda DNQ I have entrant as California Speed Equipment
1953
#43 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine R. Neuman DNQ
1957
#72 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine Danny Kladis DNQ
#89 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine Spider Webb DNQ
#7
cabianca
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 04:58
To be complete, we should mention:
1959
#12 Maserati 420M/58 Chassis 4203 Ralph Liquori DNQ
#69 Kurtis 500C Chassis 372 Maserati engine Shorty Templeman DNQ
1965
#63 Weisman-Maserati Al Unser, Sr. DNQ
1959
#12 Maserati 420M/58 Chassis 4203 Ralph Liquori DNQ
#69 Kurtis 500C Chassis 372 Maserati engine Shorty Templeman DNQ
1965
#63 Weisman-Maserati Al Unser, Sr. DNQ
#8
O Volante
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 10:56
That’s what I have to offer on the 8TFs and the 8CL at Indianapolis post-war:
Chassis no – race no – driver – owner/entrant - remarks
1946
3030 - #18 – Andres – Brisko
3031 - #25 – Snowberger – Brisko
3032 - #29 – Horn – Boyle
3035 - #52 – Villoresi – Sc Milan – after race back to Europe
1947
3030 – apparently took a break – others think it was #58 – Les Anderson – ? – car with an Offy engine
3031 - #25 – Snowberger – now owned by Cott
3032 - #1 – Horn – now owned by Henning
1948
3030 - #65 – McQuinn – now owned by Lynch
3031 - #25 – Russo – Cott
3032 - #1 – Horn – Henning
1949
3030 - #21 – Banks – now owned by Cott – now with 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031 - #35 – Hanks – Cott – car also tried by Banks
3032 - #6 – Wallard – now owned by IRC
3035 - #15 – Agabashian – back from Europe, now owned by IRC
1950
3030 - #21 – Webb – Cott – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031 - #39 – Kladis – Cott
3032 - #10 – Vukovich – IRC
3035 - #12 – Banks – IRC – now with 3.0 s/c Offy engine
1951
3030 - #49 – Barzda - Barzda? – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031 - #51 – Sennett – Barzda?
3032 - #55 – no driver – now owned by MRC – DNA
3035 - #12 – McDowell – now owned by MRC – 3.0 s/c Offy engine
1952
3030? - #23 – Forberg - ? – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031? - #53 – Barzda – Barzda? – now with 4.5 u/c Offy engine?
3032 – not entered
3035 - #41 – Holmes - ? – 3.0 s/c Offy engine
1953
3030? - #89 – Webb - ? – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031? - #69 – Barzda – Barzda? – back to 3.0 s/c Maser engine?
3032 – not entered
3035 - #43 – Neumann - ? – back to 3.0 s/c Maser engine?
By the way, what happened after that with the cars - until their reappearance since the 1970s?
Chassis no – race no – driver – owner/entrant - remarks
1946
3030 - #18 – Andres – Brisko
3031 - #25 – Snowberger – Brisko
3032 - #29 – Horn – Boyle
3035 - #52 – Villoresi – Sc Milan – after race back to Europe
1947
3030 – apparently took a break – others think it was #58 – Les Anderson – ? – car with an Offy engine
3031 - #25 – Snowberger – now owned by Cott
3032 - #1 – Horn – now owned by Henning
1948
3030 - #65 – McQuinn – now owned by Lynch
3031 - #25 – Russo – Cott
3032 - #1 – Horn – Henning
1949
3030 - #21 – Banks – now owned by Cott – now with 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031 - #35 – Hanks – Cott – car also tried by Banks
3032 - #6 – Wallard – now owned by IRC
3035 - #15 – Agabashian – back from Europe, now owned by IRC
1950
3030 - #21 – Webb – Cott – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031 - #39 – Kladis – Cott
3032 - #10 – Vukovich – IRC
3035 - #12 – Banks – IRC – now with 3.0 s/c Offy engine
1951
3030 - #49 – Barzda - Barzda? – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031 - #51 – Sennett – Barzda?
3032 - #55 – no driver – now owned by MRC – DNA
3035 - #12 – McDowell – now owned by MRC – 3.0 s/c Offy engine
1952
3030? - #23 – Forberg - ? – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031? - #53 – Barzda – Barzda? – now with 4.5 u/c Offy engine?
3032 – not entered
3035 - #41 – Holmes - ? – 3.0 s/c Offy engine
1953
3030? - #89 – Webb - ? – 4.5 u/c Offy engine
3031? - #69 – Barzda – Barzda? – back to 3.0 s/c Maser engine?
3032 – not entered
3035 - #43 – Neumann - ? – back to 3.0 s/c Maser engine?
By the way, what happened after that with the cars - until their reappearance since the 1970s?
#9
dretceterini
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 17:43
One of the V8 RIs is in the process of restoration (for the last 20 years) in the San Diego California area, but I do not know which one it is...I can't think of the name of the guy that owns it, but he raced an Abarth 207 at the Monterey Historics a number of times...
Stu
Stu
#10
fines
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Posted 03 July 2002 - 21:42
Thanks for the V8RI chassis numbersOriginally posted by cabianca
I agree with Fines as far as he goes. However, there is the matter of V8Ris to confuse the matter. Let's clear them up and go from there.
4501, 1939- #28 G. Robson DNQ, 1946-#68 J. Brubaker DNQ, 1947-#86 Brubaker DNQ, 1948-#69 Brubaker DNQ, 1948-#14 Brubaker DNQ, 1949-#79 Brubaker DNQ
4502, 1939-#53 Deacon Litz DNQ (3.0 engine), 1946-#34 T. Hinnershitz DNQ, 1948-#69 Walt Brown DNQ, 1949-#63 Jim Rathmann DNQ (Offy), 1950-#85 Jim Rigsby/Manny Ayulo DNQ
4503
4504, 1939-Henry Banks DNQ, 1940-Banks DNQ
Questions:
1) Is everyone in agreement that Russo was in 3031 in 1948. I have 3035 with a ?
2) I have Hanks/Banks in 3030 in 1949, not 3031. Comments.
3) I have Sennett in 3030 in 1950 #51 DNQ
My missing numbers are:
1946
#35 Alfa Model Unknown Louis Gerand DNQ
# 36 Maserati 6C34 Louis Gerand DNQ
#46 Maserati Model Unknown Harry Schell DNQ
#53 Maserati 4CL Varzi DNQ
#54 Maserati 4CL Duke Nalon 22nd
1947
#58 Alfa Model Unknown Offy engine DNQ L. Anderson 11th
1949
#16 Alfa 308 Tony Bettenhausen DNQ
1951
#12 Maserati 8CTF? Offy engine J. McDowell 32nd
1952
#23 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine C. Forberg DNQ
#41 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine J. Holmes DNQ
#53 Maserati Model Unknown Offy engine J. Barzda DNQ I have entrant as California Speed Equipment
1953
#43 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine R. Neuman DNQ
1957
#72 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine Danny Kladis DNQ
#89 Maserati Model Unknown Maserati engine Spider Webb DNQ
, I wasn't able to find out about them so far. I will get back to check the rest when I have a little more time!
#11
Jimmy Piget
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 21:54
Indy 1946
35 Harry O. R. Schell — Louis GÉRARD (F)* Alfa Romeo 308 — — Did not appear — —
this is the Alfa raced by « RAPH » (& WIMILLE) in Europe 46-47 and in South America 47-48
36 Harry O. R. Schell — Louis GÉRARD (F)* Maserati 8CM-3022 engine 6C 3,8 — — Did not qualify —
this car belonged to Louis Gérard who raced it in Europe here and there during 1946
46 Harry O. R. Schell — Harry SCHELL (USA)* Maserati 8CM-3010 — — Did not qualify —
this is the second Louis Gérard-owned Maserati
53 Scuderia Milan — Achille VARZI (I)* Maserati 4CL (1568 ?) 1,5 Sc — — Did not qualify —
54 Scuderia Milan — Duke NALON (USA) Maserati 4CL (1565 ?) 1,5 Sc —— Retired
Tazio NUVOLARI was linked to this entry
74 Harry O. R. Schell — Discoride LANZA (I)* Maserati 4CL (1571 ?) 1,5 Sc — — Did not practice — —
35 Harry O. R. Schell — Louis GÉRARD (F)* Alfa Romeo 308 — — Did not appear — —
this is the Alfa raced by « RAPH » (& WIMILLE) in Europe 46-47 and in South America 47-48
36 Harry O. R. Schell — Louis GÉRARD (F)* Maserati 8CM-3022 engine 6C 3,8 — — Did not qualify —
this car belonged to Louis Gérard who raced it in Europe here and there during 1946
46 Harry O. R. Schell — Harry SCHELL (USA)* Maserati 8CM-3010 — — Did not qualify —
this is the second Louis Gérard-owned Maserati
53 Scuderia Milan — Achille VARZI (I)* Maserati 4CL (1568 ?) 1,5 Sc — — Did not qualify —
54 Scuderia Milan — Duke NALON (USA) Maserati 4CL (1565 ?) 1,5 Sc —— Retired
Tazio NUVOLARI was linked to this entry
74 Harry O. R. Schell — Discoride LANZA (I)* Maserati 4CL (1571 ?) 1,5 Sc — — Did not practice — —
#12
dretceterini
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 02:16
I thought Tazio Nuvolari died in 1953..so he couldn't possibly have been involved with the Duke Nalon 4CL (unless you mean Nuvolari had driven the car at one time)..
Stu
Stu
#13
Jimmy Piget
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 16:43
The Nalon Maserati was entered in 1946, and dear old Tazio still got some years to live.
Remember he actually raced in GPs that 1946 (with Scuderia Milan), and again in the 1948 Monaco GP (with a Cisitalia).
Remember he actually raced in GPs that 1946 (with Scuderia Milan), and again in the 1948 Monaco GP (with a Cisitalia).
#14
dretceterini
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Posted 08 July 2002 - 12:09
The man I was thinking about is Fred Puhn. I saw him yesterday at the US national Alfa Romeo convention, in Costa Mesa, California. He owns one of the V8-RIs, and owned (now sold) one of the Abrth 207A sports racers. He also was involved in the US built Santee sports racers in the 60s.
Fred did NOT know about this forum, so I gave him th web address. You should hear from him shortly...
Stu
Fred did NOT know about this forum, so I gave him th web address. You should hear from him shortly...
Stu
