116 replies to this topic

[Breadmaster]

This is a direct reposte to all the senna/schumacher threads that abound at the moment:

Damon Hill is clearly the best driver of all time and i'll set about proving it with bullet points:

0) Prost had team orders and contractual obligations to keep him behind in 1993

1) Schumacher had to cheat to beat him in 1994 - Fact (ask Frans for details ;) )

2) The same goes for 1995 but is of course completely unsubstantiated which makes it more interesting

3) He is/was the best test driver in the sport.

4) WDC 1996

5) Should have won a race in an Arrows! (an Arrows for fecks sake!!! - i'd like to see schumi do that...)

6) Won a race in a dog of a Jordan (Spa 1998) in the rain.

7) Beat schumi in Japan 1994 in the rain...what more can you say....the so called best driver on what is recognized as a "drivers circuit" and bloody difficult to boot.

8) Had more personality in his little finger than most driver of the day - Alesi etc excepted.

would anyone care to add to the list?

[philhitchings]

Plays guitar better than Jaques Villneuve

[karlth]

Damon Hill was the best driver of his time, just not the fastest.

As proof of his popularity was that when he was driving for Arrows that team seemed to be the
3rd most popular team with the fans and when he moved to Jordan that team suddenly became
the 3rd most popular team and Arrows faded, just as Jordan did after Hill left.

[keithb]

That was a great race win at Spa in 1998. Wasn't that the race where Schumacher decided to cut his car in half by running into the back of DC. T'was a gift win from the gods.
I can't dispute that Damon was a good driver but IMHO he tainted his reputation by just going through the motions with Jordan before he finally hung up his racing shoes.

[The Fazz]

Cool thread!!

1) looks like a hippy most of the times

2) had a great dad

3) he has done some cool interviews with other drivers and team managers

4) He beat Ralf, ergo he is as good as JPM, ergo better than Schumi.

5) He beat Jacques Villeneuve (a farking Villeneuve!!!) in 1996

6) He almost won 1994

7) He is a good sport

8) He is excellent at developing the car... Sir Frank, quickly hire Hill as your test driver!!

[BMW FW22]

- he an gentleman

[Breadmaster]

Karlth - very true his fans genuinely warmed to him and knew what they had!

keithb - True Frentzen proved that the 1999 car was very good - if Damon hadn't lost his motivation he would have gone one step further (actually two) and been world champion that year yesno?

The Fazz - he was/is a very good sport ( and a gentleman FW22) and really likeable as opposed to some of the recent type drivers with less personality than a sponge.

also, Damon developed the 1992 car for Mansell which was quite handy I remember....now what else????

[keithb]

Breadmaster, I don't know if he could have been a world champion that year or not. I think that the Williams was a little too strong. A great driver can only do do much with a car if it is inferior than the others. A case in point..IMHO Schumacher in this earlier Farrari days was more impressive than now because his car was not as good as the competition.

[Breadmaster]

keithb - 1999, there was no threat from Williams and Frentzen bagged third in the championship....like I said just two steps from WDC.....Damon is far supirior to HHF (good as he is) and it is my belief he would have knocked everyone into a crocked hat if he had been up for it.

Damon Hill WDC 1994, 1996

[submerge]

Funniest thread ever

You *are* joking right ?

[Todd]

Damon Hill - he has shown that Jos Verstappen doesn't have the most delluded fans possible.

[mikedeering]

Whenever he left a team they went into decline....

Williams - since he left they have won only 1 WDC - and that due only to JV's ridiculous dive that punted out MS at Jerez 1997. Without that blatantly dangerous and unsporting move from Jax, MS would have rightly been the 97 Champion, and Williams would not have a WDC since Hill ditched them for a fresh challenge at Arrows.

Arrows - have not had a podium since our Damon left. So called fast drivers such as PDLR, Jos & HHF have not looked likely to repeat Damon's results at Arrows.

Jordan - have not won a race since Damon left. Despite having drivers like Trulli, Fisichella, HHF and errr Sato.

Clearly Damon Hill is a legend. All the teams he drove for are far worse off now than when he graced their paddock transporter.

[VAR1016]

Many of these points are well made.

One worth adding is how he kept his cool in 1994 after Senna's and Ratzenberger's deaths - when all the rest of the F1 world was losing theirs.

VAR1016

[Pieter]

- Damon was the last Brabham driver in F1.

[lateralforce]

haha you've got point number 0 (zero).

[submerge]

Originally posted by Todd
Damon Hill - he has shown that Jos Verstappen doesn't have the most delluded fans possible.

LOL

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by lateralforce
haha you've got point number 0 (zero).

would you spend 10 minutes renumbering? nor me
anyway Damon used number 0 right?

Originally posted by mikedeering
Whenever he left a team they went into decline....

Williams - since he left they have won only 1 WDC - and that due only to JV's ridiculous dive that punted out MS at Jerez 1997. Without that blatantly dangerous and unsporting move from Jax, MS would have rightly been the 97 Champion, and Williams would not have a WDC since Hill ditched them for a fresh challenge at Arrows.

Arrows - have not had a podium since our Damon left. So called fast drivers such as PDLR, Jos & HHF have not looked likely to repeat Damon's results at Arrows.

Jordan - have not won a race since Damon left. Despite having drivers like Trulli, Fisichella, HHF and errr Sato.

Clearly Damon Hill is a legend. All the teams he drove for are far worse off now than when he graced their paddock transporter.

I'd like to point out that JV was only world champion because he was driving the '97 Williams which was structurally the same car as '96 and was developed by Damon anyway......

[FERRARl]

No matter what you say ... you can't really say that Damon Hill was in anyway a good driver. If he was a supposedly great driver then why did the best team in the sport at the time.. Williams.. not resign him just after the 1996 season... He had won the championship that year .. but still they didn't resign him. Hmmm... seems like he was no good tome. Another thing.. He had the best car in 1994/5 and still didn't win. He was crap and its an embarassment to formula one and the rest of the racing world that a talentless fool like him can actually win a world championship.

[BRG]

Good thread - and it got as far as post 18 before a really well reasoned and intelligent rebuttal appeared ;)

[Liam]

I never warmed to DH as a driver. He always struck me as a steady fasy driver but not a racer. I always felt if you put him near another car he didn't look good. He was great out on his own, one of the best, but overtaking and defending never seemed his strong point. Perhaps I'm being unfair. As a test driver he was superb, as a human outside the car he definetly seemed to only driver you'd actually want as a friend, a real human in a world of polished machines, just not my favourite racer.
I'm probably way off, but I honestly can't remember Damon ever showing and moments of great car control. Never hanging the back end out, or catching some leary slide. Not inthe way Shumacher and Alesi and JPM do a number of times every race. He just wasn't spectacular behind the wheel.
I have a feeling it's because when I play GPL, or go go-karting I realise that the one driver I most resemble is Hill, I'm not spectacular, or have superb car control, and prefer to keep the whole thing under control rather than throw it around. Mind you, I don't have the speed at all either.

[Frans]

The Best, and above all : a gentleman.



he's the original founder of Anti-Schumi, globally.
he's Cyber-Dad..

[Breadmaster]

In my book if Frans deems to comment on my thread then I have won: Damon was the best. case proved.

[tinman]

Originally posted by FERRARl
No matter what you say ... you can't really say that Damon Hill was in anyway a good driver. If he was a supposedly great driver then why did the best team in the sport at the time.. Williams.. not resign him just after the 1996 season... He had won the championship that year .. but still they didn't resign him. Hmmm... seems like he was no good tome. Another thing.. He had the best car in 1994/5 and still didn't win. He was crap and its an embarassment to formula one and the rest of the racing world that a talentless fool like him can actually win a world championship.

[FredF1]

Too bloody true.

Any son of Graham Hill is a champion as far as I'm concerned.

[FERRARl]

Good post by Liam. He usen't hang the back end of the car out or slide it and catch it on the slide... nothing like Schumacher or Montoya do. He used just cruise around. He was all around smooth.. and smooth is fast.. but its not the fastest.. you have to be aggressively smooth..and Damon just didn't have that.. saying that he's not the most talentless driver to ever sit in a formula one cockpit... just the most talentless driver to ever win a world championship.

[Sintra]

... the chickens are popping-up everywhere!!!
Since Grumpy they started to breed like hell and now they are all over the place!! It's getting out of control!
Let's get an official 'chicken-watcher' who oversees that the current population of chickens doesn't grow wild and give him all authority to empose the proper messures to maintain a stable but above all manageable chicken hen on this forum

[Daniel Lester]

People liked Damon because he was human and the only driver who tried to stop the Schumacher machine. I'd rather see a driver knock another of the road trying to pass the guy in front than watch some of the most highly rated drivers of the day tour around behind the guy in front, waiting for a stop in order to pass. If nothing else it get's some competition going and creates a war of sorts, no matter how one sided the battle may be. JPM is the only driver who dares to take MS on, and Mika before him, but Mika always kept it clean which resulted in less atempts and a lesser fight, which in many respects wasn't as fun. That's why MS and DC are so good together.

I find it pretty hard to swallow that Damon was the worst WC, hell JVi wasn't any better. If anything Damon proved neat and tidy was a quick as raged on the edge driving when he paired up with Villeneuve and then Ralf.

I suppose it proves that Williams have learnt nothing since 94/95 in terms of fighting for the championship (both), Williams would have a better chance of winning both if he let one driver go at MS, otherwise MS will win both on his own (already is, already has last year).

Not to many drivers have lead races in Arrows and Jordans and even fewer in cars that were duds at the start of the season relative to the pace setters (in recent times), Damon had a technical ability and exploited it to do well. You don't need great driving talent if you can help produce a car that's quicker than the rest, even Yoong could win if he had Adrian Newey's design ability and BMW engines behind him.

[vroom-vroom]

Originally posted by Daniel Lester
People liked Damon because he was human and the only driver who tried to stop the Schumacher machine. I'd rather see a driver knock another of the road trying to pass the guy in front than watch some of the most highly rated drivers of the day tour around behind the guy in front, waiting for a stop in order to pass. If nothing else it get's some competition going and creates a war of sorts, no matter how one sided the battle may be. JPM is the only driver who dares to take MS on, and Mika before him, but Mika always kept it clean which resulted in less atempts and a lesser fight, which in many respects wasn't as fun. That's why MS and DC are so good together.

My thoughts exactly

[Jojodyne]

You have 'got' to be joking!

I din't like him in the beginning of 94 because he always screwed up (remember Monaco 94?) somehow with stupid mistakes, started liking him by the end of '94 because he sort of picked himself up, and almost gave Williams what Senna would have given them if he hadn'd died. In retrospect it was only because of Schumacher's many disqualifications that Hill actually had a shot at the title, not really racing merit is it? I didn't like him again in 95 because he screwed up so badly in that year and really should have bagged the title without any problems. In 96, he finally made it, but again screwed up many times (Remember Monza: 'Look there, under the bridge!) and almost lost the title again because of that. Only Hungaroring 97 I won't take away from him.

You arguments:

0) Prost had team orders and contractual obligations to keep him behind in 1993
>>> Can you count how many races he would have won? 3, four maybe? Not enough to pose a threat to Prost if you ask me.

1) Schumacher had to cheat to beat him in 1994 - Fact (ask Frans for details )
>>> Heonly had a shot at the title because Schumacher Got disqualified so many times. Hardly racing merit!

2) The same goes for 1995 but is of course completely unsubstantiated which makes it more interesting
>>> You have 'got' to be kidding me!!! He screwed up like you wouldn't believe and lost the title because of that.

3) He is/was the best test driver in the sport.
>>> Maybe, but that doesn't make him a good 'race driver

4) WDC 1996
>>> Again see above, he should have bagged the title with at least three races to spare, but had to fight until the end because he screwed up so many times. (Monza!!!)

5) Should have won a race in an Arrows! (an Arrows for fecks sake!!! - i'd like to see schumi do that...)
>>> Yes, but that was only one race.



6) Won a race in a dog of a Jordan (Spa 1998) in the rain.
>>> Sorry, Ralf Schumacher should have won it, and Jordan only had victory because Schumacher 'encountered' DC.


7) Beat schumi in Japan 1994 in the rain...what more can you say....the so called best driver on what is recognized as a "drivers circuit" and bloody difficult to boot.
>>> One good race doesn't make a racer. There's plenty of drivers that have a brilliant race. Sustaining it it over many years is what makes legendary drivers legendary.



8) Had more personality in his little finger than most driver of the day - Alesi etc excepted.
>>> Yes, but what about his racing ???



Honestly!!!

[FredF1]

By the way...

I had a chicken sandwich for lunch.

Very tasty it was too.

[servellen]

No matter what negativity you guys bring into this. Damon was one of the few nice guys in formula one who also booked some good results. I feel his short comming at wheel to wheel racing were more than made up by his real personality, we always got sense of knowing who he is without the arrogant backlash of some of today's greats.

Some poeple have their heads stuck up their arses and are unable to recognise other aspects of being a sportsman, other than just doing everyting possible to win, and being the ultimate best driver. There are many attributes which can be enjoyed as a viewer or fan; and in that sense i cannot have a cleat favourite. I like different aspects of different drivers. Hill was emotional and made mistakes under pressure, this is something i relate to and enjoyed watching him battle his nerves thorughout his carreer and still be succesfull.

You can all call him crap and point out his shortcommings, but you cannot take away the fact that i enjoyed his presence in f1 so there!

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by Jojodyne
You arguments:

0) Prost had team orders and contractual obligations to keep him behind in 1993
>>> Can you count how many races he would have won? 3, four maybe? Not enough to pose a threat to Prost if you ask me.
he did win 3 though didn't he?

1) Schumacher had to cheat to beat him in 1994 - Fact (ask Frans for details )
>>> Heonly had a shot at the title because Schumacher Got disqualified so many times. Hardly racing merit!
I think it's best you search for Frans' thread about 1994

2) The same goes for 1995 but is of course completely unsubstantiated which makes it more interesting
>>> You have 'got' to be kidding me!!! He screwed up like you wouldn't believe and lost the title because of that.
yes I was kidding...don't tell me you've been taking this all seriously???

3) He is/was the best test driver in the sport.
>>> Maybe, but that doesn't make him a good 'race driver
nope but it helps yesno?

4) WDC 1996
>>> Again see above, he should have bagged the title with at least three races to spare, but had to fight until the end because he screwed up so many times. (Monza!!!)
schumi hit the tyres that day too and finished with bent suspension....lady luck giveth and taketh away

5) Should have won a race in an Arrows! (an Arrows for fecks sake!!! - i'd like to see schumi do that...)
>>> Yes, but that was only one race.
and your point is?


6) Won a race in a dog of a Jordan (Spa 1998) in the rain.
>>> Sorry, Ralf Schumacher should have won it, and Jordan only had victory because Schumacher 'encountered' DC.
at no time during that race did i see ralf in P1....


7) Beat schumi in Japan 1994 in the rain...what more can you say....the so called best driver on what is recognized as a "drivers circuit" and bloody difficult to boot.
>>> One good race doesn't make a racer. There's plenty of drivers that have a brilliant race. Sustaining it it over many years is what makes legendary drivers legendary.
he won races in 93 through 98 that seems to satisfy your criterion.....


8) Had more personality in his little finger than most driver of the day - Alesi etc excepted.
>>> Yes, but what about his racing ???
do you remember records? well yours is broken.....


Honestly!!!

Honestly!

[Jojodyne]

Breadmaster,

Of course I don't take this seriously, I just love an argument. By the way, The French are the best soccer team ever! and Damon, ah Damon, he has been both great and pathetic (respectively Japan 94 and Monza 96) and anything between that.

In the end he was not bad, and he plays a mean guitar!

[Vunz]

Originally posted by Breadmaster
6) Won a race in a dog of a Jordan (Spa 1998) in the rain.

And needed teamorders to accomplish that

[Breadmaster]

you rate the Argentinians too then?

[Breadmaster]

Originally posted by Vunz


And needed teamorders to accomplish that

"needed" I think not.....but we'll never know will we?

[Vunz]

7) Beat schumi in Japan 1994 in the rain...what more can you say....the so called best driver on what is recognized as a "drivers circuit" and bloody difficult to boot.
>>> One good race doesn't make a racer. There's plenty of drivers that have a brilliant race. Sustaining it it over many years is what makes legendary drivers legendary.
he won races in 93 through 98 that seems to satisfy your criterion.....

IIRC He didn't win a thing in 1997...

[dretceterini]

If Nuvolari or Fangio were still living, they would both blow everyone away....so na na na na na na....

[Vunz]

Let's ask for Todd's objective opinion on Hill.

[Breadmaster]

very objective!

Samurai where are you when I need you?

[Frans]

Well breadmaster, one thing I must give it there about Spa 98.... I believe it was NEEDED, because Ralf wanted to be in front, and Hill would NEVER let THAT happen, if you know what I mean? Even Ralf has Schumacher blood, what means the ramming-billy-style of overtaking.... it was better for the both of them, AND the team, what is part of the WORD: T-E-A-M, teamorder.... in order for the TEAM, (can't say it enough sorry).... Ferrari = today a ONE man TEAM. (what's that? Old word, with a new definition? Yep, wierd! Yep, ... it is... no? YES! )

Therefore: (tadaa)
It's so diffrent from Ferrari-style team orders. soo so so.

He was the man who fought the system.... the formula.... the govermental body, and they're evil forces.... plainly the Cheating Schumacher Elite Group.

Hill Rulez! Give him beer!

[mikedeering]

Originally posted by Vunz


IIRC He didn't win a thing in 1997...

He was the moral winner in Hungary! Mind you coulda woulda shoulda doesn't really cut it...!!!

[The Fazz]

Always liked Damon Hill. I thought his debut alongside Prost was commendable. I also admired the way he led Williams challenge against Schumi in 1994 in the aftermath of Senna's death. I was rooting for Hill all the way, but he is sadly one of those champions that people don't have much time for.

[Vunz]

Originally posted by The Fazz
Always liked Damon Hill. I thought his debut alongside Prost was commendable. I also admired the way he led Williams challenge against Schumi in 1994 in the aftermath of Senna's death. I was rooting for Hill all the way, but he is sadly one of those champions that people don't have much time for.

Very commendable debut

[Sintra]

Another argument in Hill's favor and sign of a truly great champions is the company he chooses to associate with. If you hang out with the best you are the best

[Sintra]

... he always made sure to get the best equipment...

[Sintra]

... and as no other he mastered the skill of intimidating his opponents...

[Inness]

Originally posted by FERRARl
No matter what you say ... you can't really say that Damon Hill was in anyway a good driver. If he was a supposedly great driver then why did the best team in the sport at the time.. Williams.. not resign him just after the 1996 season... He had won the championship that year .. but still they didn't resign him. Hmmm... seems like he was no good tome. Another thing.. He had the best car in 1994/5 and still didn't win. He was crap and its an embarassment to formula one and the rest of the racing world that a talentless fool like him can actually win a world championship.

Relax pal, this is humorous

[Breadmaster]

but who could forget....

[Ricardo F1]

Damon Hill was good. Moreover he had a great Dad. Even better he IS a great Dad. Top marks.

(p.s. Don't you just love the way the "Schu boys" have to come out and defend their boy despite the obvious humor of the thread )