14 replies to this topic

[Wielki Wódz]

Hi everybody.
It's my first post here, though I've been reading almost all TNF threads. Your collective wisdom is impressive!
I've found many answers here, but studying Spa-Francorchamps history had one more question.
Does Ancienne Douane mean Old Customs? If so, what kind of border was there, and when? I hope someone out there can help.

Regards

[No27]

Originally posted by Wielki Wódz

I've found many answers here, but studying Spa-Francorchamps history had one more question.
Does Ancienne Douane mean Old Customs? If so, what kind of border was there, and when? I hope someone out there can help.

Regards

Ancienne Douane means former customs. The Belgian-German border is not far away from the circuit. So is the German-speaking part of the country. I'm just guessing here but it may be possible that this border at one stage in history has been near the location of the circuit.
If you're really interested, you should find maps of the Belgian-German border since 1848, the year the country was established. My feeling is that the answer of your question comes from the period around World War 1.

[fines]

Yes, Ancienne Douane means Old Customs, and I believe it was a German/Belgian border.

[Wielki Wódz]

Thanks

[Marcor]

The "virage de l'ancienne douane" is closed to Malmedy.

Malmedy was part of Germany (and not Belgium) before WW1. It changed after the war. A very little region in Belgium is still German-speaking (and also French-speaking): the three towns Malmedy, Eupen and St-Vith and some villages all around.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Marcor
A very little region in Belgium is still German-speaking (and also French-speaking): the three towns Malmedy, Eupen and St-Vith and some villages all around.

When passing through the Eupen-Malmedy region on my way to the Eifel recently, I couldn't fail noticing that on the motorway from Verviers to Sankt-Vith/Prüm all the French names on the traffic signs were sprayed over by paint, leaving only the German versions visible. We all know about the Flemish and the Walloons and their antagonism, but I never knew that the German-speaking Belgians also felt strongly about their heritage. It made me think of a second Voeren/Fourons. They're not preparing a secret liberation army, are they, Marc?;)

[No27]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


When passing through the Eupen-Malmedy region on my way to the Eifel recently, I couldn't fail noticing that on the motorway from Verviers to Sankt-Vith/Prüm all the French names on the traffic signs were sprayed over by paint, leaving only the German versions visible. We all know about the Flemish and the Walloons and their antagonism, but I never knew that the German-speaking Belgians also felt strongly about their heritage. It made me think of a second Voeren/Fourons. They're not preparing a secret liberation army, are they, Marc?;)

in Belgium you never know. Somewhere around 1992, there was a poll held among the Belgian public. They were asked if they would be surprised if there was a rightwing coup-de-état.
80% ansered No.

[Marcor]

quote:
--------
Originally posted by N°27

in Belgium you never know. Somewhere around 1992, there was a poll held among the Belgian public. They were asked if they would be surprised if there was a rightwing coup-de-état.
80% ansered No.

I've never heard about this poll. Nobody asked me the question !!!

But I prefer to ask a similar question of the original : Where is the Grenzlandring ? is it near the Netherlands / Germany border ? And near which town(s) ?

And yes the "GP des Frontières" at Chimay is near La France !!

[Pieter]

Originally posted by Marcor
quote:
--------
But I prefer to ask a similar question of the original : Where is the Grenzlandring ? is it near the Netherlands / Germany border ? And near which town(s) ?

I found a map of the track with Google, hope it helps.

http://www.silhouet....ks/grenzla2.jpg

And the place of the town Wegberg on the German map, between MonchenGladbach and the Dutch-German border.

http://www.raceworld...Bilder/map2.gif

With the railroad going through the village of Wegberg, probably being the IronRhine.

Pieter

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Marcor
Where is the Grenzlandring ? is it near the Netherlands / Germany border ? And near which town(s) ?
[/B]

Yes, close to the Dutch border, between Roermond (NL) and Mönchengladbach (D), near the villages of Rheydt and Erkelenz. Situated within the oval are the villages of Wegberg and Beeck.

[Speed Demon]

I have written a history of the Grenzlandring in the features section of e-Tracks. It's a fascinating circuit that I had heard little about until relatively recently.

http://www.etracks.freeserve.co.uk/

[Gert]

Originally posted by No27


If you're really interested, you should find maps of the Belgian-German border since 1848, the year the country was established. My feeling is that the answer of your question comes from the period around World War 1.

National history was never one of my favourites, but shouldn't that be: " ... since 1830, the
year the country was established." ?

[No27]

Originally posted by Gert


National history was never one of my favourites, but shouldn't that be: " ... since 1830, the
year the country was established." ?

Err, well, don't know exactly, frankly....

Ah, but this weekend I checked a map that originated from 1910 or something and the German border was very close to Malmedy.

[ensign14]

Damn sight closer in 1914.

[Drinky]

Maybe I can help, here's how I see it. The former Belgian-Prussian (Germany) border (or rather the Dutch-Prussian border, the Belgians came into the picture in 1830) established in 1815 did indeed run over the old circuit. In fact, the small stream of Eau Rouge was the border for some length until the stream flows under the circuit at the section everybody now knows as Eau Rouge. The steep hill now associated with that name up to La Raidillon did not exist and there was/is a far sharper corner with a gentler inclination to the left of the present circuit that carried the normal traffic out and into the valley. This bend was the Virage de l'Ancienne Douane.

Past the bridge, in the middle of the circuit, the border turned south, parallel with the circuit down to Les Combes. There the old circuit went east to Burnenville (which was Prussian) and the border continued south (the modern circuit crosses it about where the track goes downhill to Rivage). The old circuit then crosses the border after the section of Malmédy on the long straight towards Mâsta (which was Belgian). AFAIK there's nothing here that indicates this too was a border-crossing.

This is all assuming the modern municipal border is the same as the former national one, but since it is elsewhere, I would guess it applies to Malmédy as well. After WWI, at Versailles in 1919, it was decided that Belgian would annex the German land bordering it, with Malmédy (already French-speaking) and other German-speaking territory such as Eupen and Sankt-Vith. The first races in this area didn't start in earnest until the 1920s, so after the area had become fully Belgian, hence the "former customs".

So, to sum up:

Belgian: New S/F-line, La Source, Old S/F-line. Then the bridge as the border.
German: La Raidillon, Kemmel, Les Combes.
New circuit (in Belgium) : Rivage, Pouhon, Fagnes, New Stavelot.
Old circuit: Burnenville and Malmédy in Germany, then Mâsta, Old Stavelot, Cottage, etc. up to Blanchimont and back to the S/F-line in Belgium.