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Spiffy Argentine Temporada Alfa pix etc


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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 14:38

We haven't had a showering of pix from The GP Library for a while so here's another instalment of ultra-expensive, high-security, use at your absolute peril unless you're a true enthusiast proper chap, relating to recent threads re Varzi, Alfa, Argentine Temporada etc - posted courtesy of Allen Brown's skills - as ever:

Identify, debate, discuss etc??? Feel free...the big V12 Varzi Alfa is here, as are assorted 308s and a couple of very different Maseratis, as you can see...

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Just to round off since I originally sent these to Allen on Le Mans weekend - oooh my, you can't get the staff these days... - here's a particularly favourite Muldoon signalling pits pic of mine...

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...and perhaps a little something to clean up after an especially heavy Lord Mayor's Show???
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All pix courtesy The GP Library - commercial misuse will be hunted down and sorely abused.

DCN

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#2 cheesy poofs

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 14:58

Marvelous pics Doug. :up:

Who's sponsored by Cerveza Quilmes ?
Was sponsorship common in S. America back then ?

Interesting...

#3 fines

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 16:20

Great pics!!! :love: :love:

I especially love the one with the lorry! Now what's that got to do with motor racing, by the way?

#4 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 17:04

They found a Cooper 500 under the skip...perhaps?

DCN

#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 17:12

I thought it might have been that famous racing Vauxhall in the background...

#6 Michael Müller

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 23:06

The beer sponsored car is the 308 # 50017 of Oscar Galvez, in early 1947. I have another picture of the car titled “Retiro 1947”, meaning it could be either the Buenos Aires race on 9 Feb 1947, or that one week later. The livery and the starting number is identical, but Oscar wears a different shirt and no helmet, and the YPF sticker is still complete, so I believe it’s from the 9 Feb race, whereas this one here has been taken during the 16 Feb event.

By the way, I’m somewhat confused about the official name of both races, Tony Kayes first edition of the Temporada file says “Gran Premio del General Juan Peron” for the first one, and “Gran Premio de Eva Duarte Peron” for the second, whereas the edited version says “Gran Premio de Ciudad de Buenos Aires” for both (!) events.

#7 Michael Müller

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Posted 27 June 2002 - 23:31

Varzi’s car of course is the ex Scuderia Ferrari 12C37 # 51204, which after his death had been acquired by Clemar Bucci. Varzi raced it at the 1948 Temporada, Jan 18 Buenos Aires, Jan 25 Mar del Plata, Feb 1 Rosario, Feb 14 Buenos Aires, and March 21 Interlagos. Traditionally the race numbers at Temporada had been identical for all races (incl. Brazil?), so it’s difficult to appoint the correct events. The YPF sticker is damaged on the lower 2 pictures, but shirt is different, and on the other one - that with the Maserati - the sticker is undamaged, so probably 3 different races. I have another photo - also with # 15 -, but without YPF sticker at all, which may lead to the conclusion it has been taken at Interlagos.

The other 308 with # 28 must be the Naphtra Course car, or that of Chico Landi.

#8 Doug Nye

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 15:59

The Varzi V12 Argentina car was not 'just' a straightforward ex-SF 12C-37, because those cars had a rather more complex history than that, and of course it was not in 12C-37 form when Varzi ran it in the Temporada.

The car actually bore a chassis plate stamped - in part - '316' - as it seems this was one of the 1937 frames then re-employed, re-engined as a 3-litre V16-cylinder and rebodied for the 1938-39 3-litre Formula as an Alfa Corse economy measure. Julian Majzub - current owner of what seems to have been the Chico Landi 308 - tells me that amongst the mods to these frames was the resiting of the steering box between 12C-37 and 312/216 ('38), plus other measures.

When Varzi commissioned the car from Alfa postwar they gave him the biggest, hairiest motor they could - the big 1937-type V12 - in the chassis which had done service for other engines after that season - and they then rebodied the whole thing in the 'Alfetta on Steroids' style shown in the photos.

Alfa's re-use of existing frames is typified by the 308s - with 3-litre straight-8 engines for 1938 - employing old 8C-35-series frames. On Julian's the frame has been deepened in part for a more powerful engine and some features are consistent with it having been the Tripoli 16-cylinder prototype, unraced. There are grindstone marks on the frame where the original serial was over-stamped, old mounting fixtures and drillings for the 8C-35 engine, and visible evidence of old brake-pipe runs and the original tall body support frames having been cut down and reshaped and lowered to match the more modern, sleek, lowline body panelling. Make do and mend was evidently an Alfa Romeo motto - and the 'Varzi Special' Argentine V12 was plainly confected in similar fashion.

The stationary 308 is, by the way, a Naphtra Course team car, with the team badge plainly visible just ahead of the racing number, on the engine cover.

DCN

#9 Michael Müller

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Posted 28 June 2002 - 18:41

Even the engine of the "Varzi Special" was no standard 1937 V12, I believe at has been increased to 4.6 or 4.8 litres. I realized the logo on the 308, which looks like a jumping panther or jaguar, but I didn't know that this was the logo of Ecurie Naphtra Course. By the way, what was the nationality of "Raph" or better the Marquis George Raphaël Béthenod de las Casas? Some sources say French, others Argentinian. And under which flag the team was ran? The car neither has the typical bright (yellow) Argentinian bonnet, nor looks like blue, except a very dark one which was unusual.

#10 marhal

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 04:29

Hello...............

I tried to identify the driver of the Maserati (obviously an Argentinian, for the sticker of the AAV-Asociación Argentina de Volantes- Argentina´s Drivers Association), but it was impossible........

Very impressive pictures........................ :D

#11 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 04:42

1. Chico Landi Alfa Romeo 308 (3,0 s c) #3
2. Luigi Villoresi Scuderia Milano Maserati 4CL (1,5 s c) #17
3. «George Raph » or Jean-Pierre Wimille Écurie Naphtra-Course Alfa Romeo 308 (3,8 s c)
4. Oscar Galvez, Alfa Romeo 308 (3,8 s c) #14
5. Varzi Alfa Romeo 12C-37 #15
6. Nino Farina (I) Scuderia Milano Maserati 4CL (1.5 s c) #16
7. Varzi Alfa Romeo 12C-37 (4,6 s c) #15


I think that the AAV-Asociacion Argentina de Volantes decal has nothing to do with the driver.

#12 Felix Muelas

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 15:51

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
1. Chico Landi Alfa Romeo 308 (3,0 s c) #3

If that is the case, he looks extremelly "Wimillish" to me...

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
I think that the AAV-Asociacion Argentina de Volantes decal has nothing to do with the driver.


You better explain that, Arturo, because it makes all the sense in the world that the opposite would be the right...as marhal points out -ah, and because we are talking about Oscar Galvez, aren´t we?

un abrazo
fm

#13 dretceterini

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 16:18

I remember reading in some magazine of the 1950s that the Bucci 12c car had a 4.2 12c36 motor enlarged to 4.6 liters...and NOT a 12c37 motor.....I think it was some obscure US magazine...HELP!!

Thanks,
Stu

#14 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 18:16

Originally posted by Felix Muelas

If that is the case, he looks extremelly "Wimillish" to me...



You better explain that, Arturo, because it makes all the sense in the world that the opposite would be the right...as marhal points out -ah, and because we are talking about Oscar Galvez, aren´t we?

un abrazo
fm


Maybe about #3. As for the AAV decal and Oscar Galvez, he did not drive that car, AFAIK. He had the Quilmes adverts painted over his car.

Igualmente :)

Arturo

#15 Felix Muelas

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 18:43

Originally posted by Michael Müller
The beer sponsored car is the 308 # 50017 of Oscar Galvez, in early 1947.

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira
...As for the AAV decal and Oscar Galvez, he did not drive that car, AFAIK. He had the Quilmes adverts painted over his car.


:confused:
These two statements do not seem to agree...
fm

#16 marhal

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Posted 29 June 2002 - 18:51

Hello..............what a mess................

It seems to me that the driver of the Maserati #17 is not Villoresi. Am I wrong???????.

All the Argentinian drivers used the "AAV" sticker...............or I am making a mistake again??????????????.

I totally agree with Arturo about the other drivers..............

#17 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 00:23

Originally posted by Felix Muelas



:confused:
These two statements do not seem to agree...
fm


I was talking about the #14 car, not the 28 :)

Arturo

#18 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 00:27

Originally posted by marhal
Hello..............what a mess................

It seems to me that the driver of the Maserati #17 is not Villoresi. Am I wrong???????.

All the Argentinian drivers used the "AAV" sticker...............or I am making a mistake again??????????????.

I totally agree with Arturo about the other drivers..............


Posted Image I think that Villoresi is driving the Maserati #17 at Rosario on February 1st, 1948, but the original picture could not have taken at that race. The #17 has the AAV sticker :D

II COPA ACCIÓN DE SAN LORENZO
(Por Anthony Kaye - The 8W Team)
PF Piloto Escuderia Maquina Tiempo Vueltas PG
1 Jean-Pierre Wimille (F) Équipe Simca-Gordini Gordini 15 / Simca (1.2) 1.32'27.3" 50 5
2 Chico Landi (BR) F. Landi Alfa Romeo 308 (3,0 s c) 1.34'17.1" 50 6
3 Luigi Villoresi (I) Scuderia Milano Maserati 4CL (1,5 s c) 1.33'18.4" 48 3
4 Pedro Llano (RA) - Maserati (1.5 s c) 1.33'33" 48 9
5 Eitel Cantoni (ROU) - Maserati (1,5 s c) 1.33'35" 46 11
6 Italo Bizio (RA) - Maserati (1.5 s c) - 46 7
7 Andres Fernández (RA) - Maserati 6CM (1.5 s c) - 46 12
8 Juan Manuel Fangio (RA) A.C.A. Gordini 11 / Simca (1.2) - 41 (Dnf, block) 2

- Oscar Gálvez (RA) O. Gálvez Alfa Romeo 308 (3,8 s c) - 25 (Diferencial) 1
- Nino Farina (I) Scuderia Milano Maserati 4CL (1.5 s c) - 5 (Frenos) 4
- Victorio Rosa (RA) - Maserati 6CM (1.5 s c) - 20 Dnf 8
- Achille Varzi (I) Scuderia Milano (Practicas)
A. Varzi (Carrera) Maserati 8CL (3,0 s c)
Alfa Romeo 12C-37 (3.8 s c) - 0 (Motor) 10
- Aldo Ruggieri (RA) Scuderia Milano Maserati 4CL (1.5 s c) - DNF -
- Pablo Pesatti (RA) P. Pesatti Alfa Romeo 8C-35 (3,8 s c) - DNF -
- Carlos Fortunati Firpo (RA) - Maserati (1.5 s c) - DNF -
- Pascual Poupolo (RA) San Isidro Maserati 8CL (3.0 s c) - DNF -
- «George Raph »(F) Écurie Naphtra-Course Alfa Romeo 308 (3,8 s c) - Dna -
- Count Gabriele Besana (I) - Ferrari 166 SC (2.0) - Dna -

PF= Posicion Final - PG= Posicion de Grilla

#19 dretceterini

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 02:05

I think all the cars could have had the AAV if they wished...

Anyone find anything reagarding if the 12c motor was a 12c36 bored out and NOT a 12c37?

I also think that this was one of the biggest wins ever for a Gordini GP car..Wimille is one of my all time favorite drivers...

Stu

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 14:35

I think I have mentioned before that a German friend has been making a detailed study of South American Alfas (and Masers). He's been reading this thread, and its predecessors, and has asked me to post this on his behalf:

"very interesting to see the Argentinian pictures and to read about the South American GP Alfas in this other thread. Apparently I need to join TNF ... In the meantime, can you perhaps post my research results on the South American Alfas? You know I'm working on the topic myself since some time, so they may be of help for others and perhaps yield some comments and additions. Apart from the standard sources my conclusions are especially based on my study of the Portuguese magazine "O Volante", which covered the racing in fellow lusophone Brazil quite extensively!

GP Alfa Romeos in South America (excluding Monzas)
1) 2900A #412003 - raced in Brazil 1936 by Marinoni (Gávea) and Pintacuda (São Paulo), entered by SF. Sold to Carlos Arzani, raced 1936-1937. To Ricardo Carú, raced 1937, car heavily crashed. To Domingo Ochoteco, rebuild as a single-seater, raced 1938-1941. To Italo Bizio, a second time rebuild as a single-seater with different bodywork, raced 1946-1949 (Bizio crashed with it fatally). To Héctor Niemitz, raced 1950-?. Later restored; according to my info today in the United States.
2) 2900A #412004 - raced in Brazil 1936 by Pintacuda (Gávea) and Marinoni (São Paulo), entered by SF. Returned to Italy.
3) P3 #50009 - with a rounded bodywork like a 2900A/8C-35 (plus ifs) from its arrival at Argentina, looking very different to all other P3s! Sold to Italo de Lucca, raced for him by Vittorio Cóppoli, Ricardo Nasi and António Canziani 1937-1939. To Adriano Malusardi, raced 1941-1942. To Juan Gálvez, possibly on loan, raced 1947. Back to Malusardi, raced 1948-1949. Totally destroyed in Malusardi's fatal crash; few remains left over and later sold to UK. Said to be incorporated in Rodney Felton's replica car, who openly acknowledges the status of his car with the designation 50009R!
4) 12C-36 #? - raced at Gávea 1937 by Brivio, entered by SF. Returned to Italy.
5) 8C-35 #? - raced at Gávea 1937 by Pintacuda, entered by SF. Returned to Italy.
6) 8C-35 #50014 - Sold to Carlos Arzani, first raced by him at Naples 1937, then in South America 1937-1939. To Artur Nascimento Júnior, raced 1939-1940. To Oldemar da Silva Ramos, raced 1940-1942. To Pablo Pesatti, raced 1947-1948, in 1948 in much modified form. When Pesatti crashed fatally, it was further modified with a locally produced 2.5 Alfa Romeo Marine engine installed in it to comply with Argentinian Mecánica Nacional rules. Remains to Alberto Crespo, who constructed another Mecánica Nacional (Fuerza Limitada class) car out of it, raced c. 1950-?. Chassis and engine later reunited, with piles of spares apparently used to build TWO cars claiming to be the ex-Arzani 8C-35!!!
7) TWO P3s in Brazil #? and #? - the mystery cars! One was a slim first series car, as photographic evidence shows, the other apparently a second series car. In reports one is usually refered to as "2.9". Apparently it was first raced in South America at Gávea 1937 by Artur Nascimento Júnior. Probably also raced by him in later 1937 in Argentina, and in both 1938 Gávea races. To Geraldo Avellar, raced at Interlagos 1940 and in Argentina 1941. If the "2.9" was the first series car, it was also raced by Chico Landi at Gávea 1939 and Buenos Aires 1941, probably also at Gávea and Santa Fe in 1941. The "2.9" was definitely raced by Avellar in Brazil in 1946 and early 1947. Subsequent fate unknown. The early South American history of the second car, in reports usually refered to as "3.2", is not known, but by 1942 it was also owned by Geraldo Avellar, who gave it on loan to Pablo Pesatti for the Argentinian races. Definitely back to Brazil, to Oldemar da Silva Ramos, raced 1946, to Anuar de Gois, raced 1946-1947, then to António Parra, raced 1947-1951. Possibly to João Scafidi, raced 1952. Subsequent fate unknown. Both cars seem not to exist anymore; probably used in late 1950s to build Brazilian Mecânica Continental cars: Who knows any details about the various "Charutos" of Euclides Pinheiro, Camilo Cristófaro, Godofredo Viana or Ciro Cayres (for example) - all said to have included Alfa parts - and their race careers???
8) 308 #? - raced at Gávea 1938 by Carlo Pintacuda, entered by Alfa Corse. Returned to Italy.
9) 308 #? - raced at Gávea 1938 by Mario Tadini, entered by Alfa Corse. Returned to Italy.
10) 308 #50017 - Sold to Juan Bellini Caviglia, unraced, then Italo de Lucca, raced for him by Ricardo Nasi, Ricardo Carú and Antonio Canziani, 1939-1942. To Oscar Gálvez and friends, raced by Gálvez 1947-1949. To ACA/Juan Manuel Fangio, raced by Carlos Menditeguy, Manuel de Teffé, Adolfo Schwelm Cruz, Onofre Marimon (only entered), Alberto Crespo, Roberto Mieres, 1951-1953, later by others. Today in Fangio Museum, Balcarce.
11) 308 #? - Sold to Chico Landi, raced 1946-1948, to Henrique Casini, raced 1948-1949, to António Fernandes da Silva, whos crash in his first race with it at Belo Horizonte in August 1949 destroyed the car. In the 1950s parts of it where used to construct a Cadillac-engined Special, which was shortly tried in Brazilian Mecânica Continental, but later became a road-going sports-car. Since the 1960s, this car has disappeared.
12) 308 #? - The Scuderia Naphtra Course car, first raced in South America in the 1947 Argentinian/Brazilian Temporada for the team by Achille Varzi, after it's usual driver Jean-Pierre Wimille became ill. In the 1948 Argentinian/Brazilian Temporada with non standard radiator grille, raced for the team by Jean-Pierre Wimille, Achille Varzi (after problems with his V12) and patron "Raph" himself. Later sold in Brazil, raced by Jaime Neves at Interlagos 1949. Possibly the car raced by Gilberto Pereira do Valle, Nino Stefanini, Francisco Rosalvo Mansur 1950-1952 and even later. Subsequent fate unknown; also basis for a Brazilian Mecânica Continental car? - Julian Majzub claims his 308 is the ex-Landi car: in view of the above, has he perhaps this car?
13) V12 #51204 - A special car build for Achille Varzi to race in the 1948 Argentinian/Brazilian Temporada, combining a chassis of the 12C-37/312 range (but with a 16C plate) and a 4.6 litre engine. Sold to Clemar Bucci, raced in Argentina 1949-1953. Converted to sports-car, entered in 1956 Buenos Aires 1000 kms for Bucci/Suarez, but dns. Later converted back to single-seater, sold to Germany in the 1990s, today apparently with Neil Hadfield.

PS: Of course four 308s were build (the three mentioned above plus the one in the USA), so logically at least one of the 308s visiting Brazil in 1938 later returned to South America!

PS2: Doug Nye's Alfa pictures: Nothing to add about the identification of the V12, but #3 is definitely JP Wimille with the Naphtra Course 308 in 1948, easily recognized by the non-standard grille, and #28 is the same car in 1947, when it was raced by Achille Varzi - number 12 in the above list!"

#21 Felix Muelas

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 16:19

Originally posted by David McKinney
...but #3 is definitely JP Wimille with the Naphtra Course 308 in 1948, easily recognized by the non-standard grille...


Who? Wimille? :lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way, how INTERESTING all the stuff posted above, David. Now onto pen and paper, obviously...Thanks a million!

Felix

#22 Leif Snellman

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 16:41

Originally posted by fines
Great pics!!! :love: :love:
I especially love the one with the lorry! Now what's that got to do with motor racing, by the way?

It's just an example of "Murphy's Law on Murphy's Lorry" :p

Great pictures, Doug! :up:

Nice new avatar, Felix! :rotfl:

#23 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 17:04

Nice new avatar, Felix!



Trying to figure out what Felix is doing on the avatar...other that displaying his shiny Collina haircut...

#24 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 30 June 2002 - 20:40

There yet is a thread about Alfas in South America Temporadas, isn't it ?

#25 dretceterini

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 01:34

So there WAS a 12c36 that went to South America, and the story that it was a 12c36 4.1 liter motor that was bored was later in the Bucci car and it did NOT have a 4.5 liter 12c37 motor COULD be true!

Thanks for the help...

Stu

#26 marhal

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 03:43

Hello everybody..........

David, your German friend made a terrific investigation...............why he can´t join the TNF???????????.

Some years ago, a journalist told me that a P3 was dismantled here in Caracas in the ´70s. Sadly, I can´t get more information about this fact.

#27 David McKinney

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 05:41

Originally posted by marhal
Hello everybody..........
David, your German friend made a terrific investigation...............why he can´t join the TNF???????????.

He is trying, but for some (technical) reason can't seem to get on. He's working on it

#28 Doug Nye

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 10:57

The information on the back of the original pix - plus broad car identity - is as follows:

Pic 1 - Jean-Pierre Wimille Januaruy 17, 1948, Gran Premio del Ciudad de Buenos Aires, Alfa Romeo 308.

Pic 2 - "2005 - 94" - ha, gotcha! There's nothing else on the print itself but recognisably it's Villoresi in the Maserati 4CL leading Varzi in the big Alfa V12, which I feel should uniquely be described as being the Alfa Romeo 12C-48 or something similar, to reflect its unique hybridity - 'hybrid-ness'? You know what I mean... This looks like Palermo Park, but I have no idea of the evnt or precise date.

Pic 3 - Dated only February 1947 - "Gran premio Ciudad del B. Aires - Alfa Romeo de Aquiles Varzi" - some mistake here then? This looks to me like the 'Raph' car and the gentleman seated under the number '16' signe resembles the gentleman himself...

Pic 4 - January 25, 1948 - "Gran Premio Inter. C.M. del Plate - O. Galvez in curva" - Oscar Galvez in his Alfa Romeo 308.


Pic 5 - "Palermo - January 17, 1948 - Gran Premio del C. de B.Aires - A. Varzi" - V12 Alfa

Pic 6 - Blank print - Appears to be Farina - but that's not a 4CL - twin exhaust pipes??? Very long wheelbase???? An Indy look??? Comments???

Pic 7 - 1948 Buenos Aires - Varzi - 4.6 V12 Alfa Romeo.

The big Alfa is apparently owned today not by Brazilian in Europe Carlos Monteverde - who did own it for a while - but by Neil Hadfield of the USA, in whose hands it is due to run at the Goodwood Festival of Speed.

DCN

#29 O Volante

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 13:42

Ah, it seems to work!

Hello, I'm the German Friend from above ...

Picture 3: Yes, it's Giuseppe Farina, with Maserati 8CL 3035. Scuderia Milan brought the car to Argentina for the 1948 Temporada; the best result was a win for Farina at Mar del Plata. The car is also visible in the picture posted by Arturo Perreira ...

However, this picture, said to show the front row of the grid of the 1948 Rosario GP, is itself a little mystery: In front you see the 8CL (double exhaust pipe!), behind a 4CL with Villoresi, another 4CL with Fangio and the Quilmes Alfa of Oscar Gálvez. Assuming Gálvez is occuping pole position, this order of drivers fits with what is known about the qualifying times for the race - Gálvez first, Fangio second etc. ... Unfortunately both Fangio and Farina are in the wrong cars! Other pics taken during the race (and the results!) show that Fangio drove a Simca Gordini (like the winner of the race, JP Wimille) and that Farina had on that occasion a 4CL! For the other races, including heats, the order of drivers and times can't be liked either - any ideas?

By the way, does anybody know details about 8CL 3035's race carreer in the US, when it was apparently owned by Brete Harte Hannaway, ca. 1952/53? And who raced it in the late 1950s, when it seems to have been converted to a sportscar? Or details about the circumstances of its destruction, c. 1986?

#30 David McKinney

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 13:56

Welcome OV :wave:

#31 dretceterini

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 14:53

Picture 6 looks like an 8CL (not CLT) to me, but I have no idea what car it is.

Stu

#32 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 17:21

Maserati built:

4 type 8 CTF models

2 type 8 CL models

65 type 6 CM

26 type 4 CL 1500 models

20 type 4 CLT 48 models

Though it seems to be impossible to determine which cars raced at Argentina, except the 8CL chassis 3034 and the 8CL chassis 3035

This information does not agree with the one I obtained from the Maserati official site

#33 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 17:28

8CTF
Posted Image

Model
8CTF

Produced
1938-1939

Number of cars built
3 + 1 engine

Engine

Engine type
in-line 8

Bore/stroke
69x100 mm

Displacement
2,991.4 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6.5:1

Maximum power output
350-366 bhp at 6,300 rpm

Valve timing
two valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
two Roots superchargers, two Memini MA12 carburettors mounted ahead of the superchargers

Ignition
single-plug, Scintilla magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, single-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
box section ladder frame, with two longitudinal steel girders and cross members

Front suspension
independent front suspension, torsion bars, friction dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
leaf springs, friction or hydraulic dampers, anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm and sector

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
161.42 in. (4,100 mm)

Width
59.84 in. (1,520 mm)

Height
43.30 in. (1,100 mm)

Wheelbase
107.08 in. (2,720 mm)

Front/rear track
53.15/54.33 in. (1,350/1,380 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, front 3.25x19; rear 4.00x19

Tyres
front 5.50x19-6.00x19; rear 6.50x19; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,719 lbs (780 kg)

Fuel tank
33 Imp. gall. (150 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
180 mph (290 km/h)

Notes
mounted bigger wheels and Firestone tyres for Indianapolis

#34 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 17:29

4CL
Posted Image
Model
4CL

Produced
1939-1947

Number of cars built
24

Engine

Engine type
in-line 4

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
1,490.8 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6.5:1

Maximum power output
220 bhp at 8,000 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
Roots supercharger, a single Weber 45 DCO carburettor mounted ahead of the supercharger

Ignition
single-plug, Scintilla magneto (Magneti Marelli St24 DAS from 1947)

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
alloy longitudinal girders and cross members

Front suspension
independent front suspension, torsion bars, Houdaille friction dampers

Rear suspension
leaf springs and Houdaille friction or hydraulic dampers

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm and sector

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
150.79 in. (3,830 mm)

Width
58.27 in. (1,480 mm)

Height
43.30 in. (1,100 mm)

Wheelbase
98.42 in. (2,500 mm)

Front/rear track
49.21/50.08 in. (1,250/1,272 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, front 3.50x17; rear 4.00x16

Tyres
fr/rear 5.00x17-6.00x16; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,389 lbs (630 kg)

Fuel tank
21 Imp. gall. (100 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
146-155 mph (235-250 km/h)

#35 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 17:32

8CL
Posted Image
Model
8CL

Produced
1940-1946

Number of cars built
2

Engine

Engine type
in-line 8

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
3,981.7 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6.5:1

Maximum power output
415-430 bhp at 6,400-6,800 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
two Roots superchargers, two Memini carburettors mounted ahead of the superchargers

Ignition
single-plug, Scintilla magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
alloy longitudinal girders and cross members

Front suspension
torsion bars, friction dampers

Rear suspension
leaf springs and friction dampers

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm and sector

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
150.79 in. (3,830 mm)

Width
58.27 in. (1,480 mm)

Height
43.30 in. (1,100 mm)

Wheelbase
109.84 in. (2,790 mm)

Front/rear track
53.15/54.33 in. (1,350/1,380 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 3.25x19-4.00x19

Tyres
fr/rear 5.50x19-6.50x19; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,719 lbs (780 kg)

Fuel tank
39.59 Imp. gall. (180 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
174-189 mph (280-305 km/h)

Notes
mounted Firestone tyres (front 7.00x19; rear 7.50x20) in 1946 for Indianapolis

#36 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 17:34

4CLT/48
Posted Image

Model
4CLT/48

Produced
1948-1950

Number of cars built
18

Engine

Engine type
in-line 4

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
1,490.8 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6:1

Maximum power output
260 bhp at 7,000 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
two Roots superchargers, a single Weber 50 DCO (52 DCO) carburettor mounted ahead of the superchargers

Ignition
single-plug, Marelli ST24DAS magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular with two main side members and cross members

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
151.57 in. (3,850 mm)

Width
55.12 in (1,400 mm)

Height
39.37 in. (1,000 mm)

Wheelbase
98.42 in. (2,500 mm)

Front/rear track
49.21/47.24 in. (1,250/1,200 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 3.25x17 - 4.00x16

Tyres
front 5.25x17-5.00x17; rear 6.00x16-6.50x16; Pirelli, Englebert, Dunlop

Dry weight
1,389 lbs (630 kg)

Fuel tank
26.40 Imp. gall. (120 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
161.5-168 mph (260-270 km/h)

Notes
two examples of the 4CLT/50 were built in 1950 with 1,720.2 cc engines (bore/stroke78x90 mm)

#37 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 17:40

6CM
Posted Image
Model
6CM

Produced
1936-1939

Number of cars built
27

Engine

Engine type
in-line 6

Bore/stroke
65x75 mm

Displacement
1,493.2 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6:1

Maximum power output
155-175 bhp at 6,200-6,600 rpm

Valve timing
two valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
Roots supercharger, a single Weber 55AS1 (55-50DCO) carburettor mounted ahead of the supercharger

Ignition
single-plug, Scintilla magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, single-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
ladder frame, with two longitudinal steel girders and cross members

Front suspension
torsion bars, friction dampers

Rear suspension
leaf springs and friction dampers

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
146.45 in. (3,720 mm)

Width
58.27 in. (1,480 mm)

Height
47.24 in. (1,200 mm)

Wheelbase
98.03 in. (2,490 mm)

Front/rear track
47.24/47.24 in. (1,200/1,200 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 4.00x16 - 4.00x17

Tyres
front 6.00x16-5.25x17; rear 6.00x16-5.25x17; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,433 lbs (650 kg)

Fuel tank
26.40 Imp. gall. (120 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
130-143 mph (210-230 km/h)

Notes
car was totally rebuilt in 1938

#38 David McKinney

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 18:52

You are a brave man to be so definite about the production numbers, Arturo :D

#39 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 21:04

If Maserati do not know how many cars they build .... well, I was a kid then, so do not look at me ;)

Arturo

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#40 alessandro silva

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Posted 01 July 2002 - 21:19

Originally posted by David McKinney
[I]I think I have mentioned before that a German friend has been making a detailed study of South American Alfas (and Masers). in 1947, when it was raced by Achille Varzi - number 12 in the above list!"

David, I would be much interested in the posting of the list of Maseratis. Or in getting it in some other way. Thanks.

#41 Jimmy Piget

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 06:39

O Volante wrote :
<< By the way, does anybody know details about 8CL 3035's race carreer in the US, when it was apparently owned by Brete Harte Hannaway, ca. 1952/53? And who raced it in the late 1950s, when it seems to have been converted to a sportscar? Or details about the circumstances of its destruction, c. 1986? >>

I thought 3035 was, and still is, on display at the Indy Museum ???

About 3034 : Manfred von Brauchitsch was supposed to have driven this car in the 1949/1950 Temporada first round. While we all know he did not race the car, could somebody assume (with pics, for example, or local press reports) that he actually practise it ? (The DAMW thread does not bring a definitive answer on this point)

#42 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 10:05

I would like to come back to the Alfa, especially the picture #1 posted by Doug.

I checked my documentation at home, and confirmed my first thought, the 158-look alike front end is the distinctive feature of Pesatti's car, not seen, as far as I know, on any other TipoC / 308 .

So, did Wimille race Pesatti's car (which is a different one from Scuderia Naphtra's, according to "O Volante"'s precise reconstitution ;) ), or do I miss something about both cars having been transformed the same way?

Great thread! :up:

#43 O Volante

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 11:13

Many thanks for all reactions!

Alessandro:
Well, my “Maseratis in South America” list is still somewhat incomplete and full of question marks – work in progress is probably the best expression!
The problems are of the most basic kind: the few reports on hand usually simply report that driver XY had a Maserati, without info about capacity or type, not to speak about chassis numbers! Sadly, pictures are also rare. Against that there is the large number especially of 1500 Maseratis coming and apparently staying in South America – therefore it is very hazardous to make definite statements about almost any Maserati appearing in reports or results. It is also clear that Maseratis, like Alfa Romeos became in their later lifes Mecánica Nacional (Argentina) or Continental (Brazil) cars. In other cases only parts of them were used to construct other vehicles: as the consequence cars have simply disappeared without any traces – no way to work back from still existing “hardware”! To get out of that trap, I can see only one research strategy: required is a close reading of the contemporary local coverage! Surely that’s an enterprise of some proportions, but apparently it has already been started by “Chico”, whoses postings at TNF on the topic I can’t praise enough!!!
But a short look on the “pre-war” years - if that term is appropriate for South America! According to my records (again based on O Volante, plus incorporating info from “Chico”) the first race appearance of a Maserati in South America was on 12 June 1938 at the Rio GP, when Frenchman Louis Descarolli retired after 5 laps. “Chico” added that this was an 8CM. A year later, there were three Maseratis at Gávea, for Manuel de Teffé, Francisco Credentino and Luiz Tavares Moraes – Teffé won, while the other two retired. At the inauguration meeting at Interlagos in May 1940 there seem to have been four Maseratis, for Chico Landi (2nd), de Teffé (retired), Credentino (crashed) and Miguel Violante (probably retired – not in my report, but mentioned by “Chico”). Later in the year at Gávea Chico Landi finished again 2nd, despite a lap down on winner Rubens Abrunhosa with his Studebaker, while Antonio José Pereira was 3 laps behind, finishing 5th – this apparently the only Maseratis in the race. At the 1941 Rio GP there were again four Maseratis: Quirino Landi (brother of Chico) started 2nd, Manuel de Teffé 4th, Benedito Lopes 16th and Gino Bianco, without time, from the back of the grid. At the end Quirino was 2nd, and de Teffé 3rd, the other two apparently DNFed. At the Santa Fe race in November Argentine and Brazilian drivers raced each other for the first time in this year: de Teffé qualified and finished 3rd in the only Maserati – Raul Riganti with the Maserati he had at Indy in 1940 was unfortunately a non-starter. In the second International race at Buenos Aires three weeks later, Riganti’s Maserati disappointed again and retired after only 3 laps. De Teffé’s car was now in the hands of Eric Forrest Greene, who finished 6th. Greene did one better in May 1942, when he was 5th at Santa Fe.
That’s what I can say about the “pre-war” races; however, together with later info its possible to make some statements about the identity of these cars. Credetino’s was a two-seater – I GUESS it was 3006, later brought to Britain by Colin Crabbe. I further GUESS that it was ex-Chambost, who had apparently tried to use it without s/c in French sportscar races in 1936 (compare Blight, French Revolution), the two-seater configuration probably going back to Raymond Sommer’s attempts to strengthen the flexing chassis, possibly using the body of the 1934 4C-2500 2012! Most likely brought to Brazil by Descarolli, then to Credentino, who crashed it at Interlagos 1940, stopped racing for a while, only to make a comeback post-war. The de Teffé car was definitely a 6CM, the one he had already raced in Europe, apparently #1551. It seems de Teffé sold it to Forrest Greene, from whom it passed to Francisco Culligan, who raced it in the 1947 Argentinian Temporada, and then to António Fernández (not to be confused with António Fernándes da Silva!), who raced it as late as 1949. Later story unknown, car today in Switzerland. The car of the Landi brothers seems to be another 8CM – post war there seems to have been in Brazil at least a second one (besides Credetino’s), possibly even a third – appearing with 3.0 Maseratis in results are Fernándes da Silva, Henrique Casini and Gino Bianco. (Very confusingly the Bianco car is sometimes called a “3.2” – travelled the 3.2 8CM engine of 1935 Monaco GP fame perhaps to Brazil?) The Riganti car was of cause the first 8CL #3034, racing on and of in Argentina until 1949, today owned by Rob Walton. The other appearances mentioned above may be credited to a single fifth car, most likely another 6CM, as Henrique Casini had a 1.5 in April 1946, when he was second in the “Subida da Tijuca” (hillclimb) at Rio de Janeiro.

Jimmy:
There seems to have been a report about the destruction of 8CL #3035 by DSJ in MotorSport in 1986: you are right, the car was with the Indianapolis Museum since the late 1950s. But apparently absolutely nothing was done with it, and in the 1980s it seems to have been so rotten that it was broken up. I have yet to see this report – that’s why I posted the question …
The last appearance of 8CL #3034 at a race (before its return to the tracks some years ago, that is) I know about was at the “IV° Gran Premio del General Juan Domingo Péron y de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires”, Palermo, Buenos Aires, December 18, 1949, when it was – as you say – entered by the ACA and to be driven by Manfred von Brauchitsch. According to the report in O Volante, it did not start because of mechanical problems (”avaria mecânica”), reducing the number of starters to 21. This seems to indicate that Brauchitsch participated in practice for the race. In von Brauchitsch’s autobiography, however, the story sounds slightly different: accordingly he tested the car, and after that simply refused to drive the mess … Contemporary reports say it was tried (by the ACA?) to find another, more competitive car for him, but without success …

Patrick:
No, that's seems not to be the case: if you check pictures of the Naphtra Course car racing in Europe from 1946, you see that the grille is sometimes looking like a big black whole! In 1947, as can be seen here in the thread from the car with #28, that was apparently repaired. For 1948 it was then modified in the way the car with #3 is ...
If I compare car #3 with Pesatti's modified 8C-35 in 1948, I still see some differences: Another picture of the car with #3 can be found in the Pirelli Fangio album. The advantage here is the perspective: on the side three rows of louvres can be seen. If you take the picture of Pesatti's modified car in Simon Moore's article on 8C-35s in C&SC, April 1988, you see a different grid of louvres. Besides, the potato chipper front grilles of the cars are not the same: five horizontal rows on Pesatti's car, nine on the Naphtra Course car. (There is also a good picture of Wimille in the Naphtra Course car in Evan Green, Alfa Romeo, Beacon Hill, NSW 1976, on p. 79!)

#44 dretceterini

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 12:57

Louver, Louver...who's counting the louvers?? :eek:

Next we will be counting rivets.. :rolleyes:

Stu

#45 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 13:01

Originally posted by O Volante

If I compare car #3 with Pesatti's modified 8C-35 in 1948, I still see some differences: Another picture of the car with #3 can be found in the Pirelli Fangio album. The advantage here is the perspective: on the side three rows of louvres can be seen. If you take the picture of Pesatti's modified car in Simon Moore's article on 8C-35s in C&SC, April 1988, you see a different grid of louvres. Besides, the potato chipper front grilles of the cars are not the same: five horizontal rows on Pesatti's car, nine on the Naphtra Course car. (There is also a good picture of Wimille in the Naphtra Course car in Evan Green, Alfa Romeo, Beacon Hill, NSW 1976, on p. 79!)


Thanks, Wolf, I'll compare closely the pics at my disposal. I've been a little too fast in comparing one pic I hold in my office with another I have at home
:rolleyes:

#46 dretceterini

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 13:41

Patrick:

I now appoint you official rivet and louver counter for all pre-war Alfas....maybe you can get government funding to do the job...or get Bernie or Max to pay for it.. :rotfl:

Stu

#47 Patrick Italiano

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 14:47

Originally posted by dretceterini
Patrick:

I now appoint you official rivet and louver counter for all pre-war Alfas....maybe you can get government funding to do the job...or get Bernie or Max to pay for it.. :rotfl:

Stu


Some way, I do get government funding for that, since I work as researcher at the University :p

Now, I must say seriously that I rely much more on a close examination of the available pictures to conclude on the identity of any car than on the comments made by supposedly well informed people.
Unless the well informed is in Luigi Fusi's league...

#48 Doug Nye

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Posted 02 July 2002 - 14:53

Don't ever knock rivet and louvre and body fastener counting - it's the only way to read the one historic record which most seldom makes any errors - the photographic record.

That is, at least - until the day that Adobe wrote their Photoshop programme...

DCN