I know this engine was a failure, and I think I know most of the reasons for it. It's specifications and peculiarities are not the subject of my request, but its actual appearances! Somehow I can't seem to find a lot of info about when and where the engine was actually used in competition. Someone who was following USAC/CART during that time should be able to remember, however.
The following cars and races are on my "possibly list", i.e. I have some vague info, but nothing definite:
1978 #60 Patrick Racing Wildcat, Roger McCluskey at Trenton (April) and the California 500
1978 #40 Patrick Racing Wildcat, Steve Krisiloff at Michigan (September), Silverstone and Brands Hatch
1979 #15 Hopkins Lightning, Johnny Parsons at Texas (April) and Indy practice
1979 #10 Morales Lightning, Pancho Carter at Phoenix (March), Atlanta (April) and Indy practice
1979 #40 Leader Cards Watson (?), George Snider in Indy practice
1979 #51 Hopkins Lightning, George Snider at Pocono
Also at Indy, possibly Hurley Haywood on the #51 Hopkins Lightning (the same car as Parsons but renumbered)
Anyone with more precise info?
Drake V8
Started by
fines
, Jul 01 2002 15:30
9 replies to this topic
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#2
Don Capps
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Posted 02 July 2002 - 02:29
After an admittedly quick look, I could find only two starts for the Drake DT160: McElreath at Ontario and Krisiloff at Silverstone. The references to the "Drake Offy" as exactly that, the Drake Offenhauser Turbo. Harms has the Drake as the "Offy V-8" which is not correct, but not that far from reality.
#3
Don Capps
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Posted 04 July 2002 - 21:22
I have found a picture of the Drake DT160 in a Wildcat at Phoenix. It was used in practice, but Bignotti decided to not use it in the race.
Roger McCluskey ran the Drake at Trenton, but the engine lost oil pressure when the oil started getting blown out the oil breather. The Drake overheated at Ontario and was out after only a dozen laps.
The Wildcat using the Drake was the Mk 3, Steve Krisiloff managing to get the Drake home 6th at Silverstone. The Wildcat-Drake was a DNS at Brands when a halfshaft broke and Krisiloff crashed heavily damaging the car to the extent that it could not be repaired in time for the race.
Outside of these, I haven't found anything indicating that the Drake ran in race during 1979.
Roger McCluskey ran the Drake at Trenton, but the engine lost oil pressure when the oil started getting blown out the oil breather. The Drake overheated at Ontario and was out after only a dozen laps.
The Wildcat using the Drake was the Mk 3, Steve Krisiloff managing to get the Drake home 6th at Silverstone. The Wildcat-Drake was a DNS at Brands when a halfshaft broke and Krisiloff crashed heavily damaging the car to the extent that it could not be repaired in time for the race.
Outside of these, I haven't found anything indicating that the Drake ran in race during 1979.
#4
cabianca
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 05:50
Be careful. One of the weaknesses of Harms' incredible work is in the engine info. If you find discrepencies, he fixes them.
#5
Don Capps
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 13:13
Michael,
Very much the case which is why I went to the contemporary reports and tried to cross-check at least two sources per race. Much of the confusion is from the use of the "Drake-Offy" and "DGS" terms as a "Drake" in some reports. In 1979, the combination of funding, the possible technical problems which would require extensive modifications ("....Dale, you made the crankcase too small..."), there was no apparent increase in performance over existing engines, and the fact that the Cosworth was available and reliable did not help the cause of the Drake DT160.
At times, it is understandable how the confusion which dogs the engines causes Phil such headaches. I know I groan alot as I realize that what I assumed was in the engine compartment for that race really wasn't. Plus, what do you really call a "Novi?" A Winfield? An Offenhauser/Winfield? Or a "Sparks?" An Offenhauser/Sparks? And during the late-40's and eraly-50's, some of the chassis had to have zippers since engines were tossed in yanked out so often....
Very much the case which is why I went to the contemporary reports and tried to cross-check at least two sources per race. Much of the confusion is from the use of the "Drake-Offy" and "DGS" terms as a "Drake" in some reports. In 1979, the combination of funding, the possible technical problems which would require extensive modifications ("....Dale, you made the crankcase too small..."), there was no apparent increase in performance over existing engines, and the fact that the Cosworth was available and reliable did not help the cause of the Drake DT160.
At times, it is understandable how the confusion which dogs the engines causes Phil such headaches. I know I groan alot as I realize that what I assumed was in the engine compartment for that race really wasn't. Plus, what do you really call a "Novi?" A Winfield? An Offenhauser/Winfield? Or a "Sparks?" An Offenhauser/Sparks? And during the late-40's and eraly-50's, some of the chassis had to have zippers since engines were tossed in yanked out so often....
#6
Gerr
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 14:44
Fines, the USAC yearbook race records for 1978 show "Offy V8" used in only those five races by McCluskey and Krisiloff. The '79 USAC yearbook doesn't show Offy V8's or Drake V8's competing in any races.
The '78 Hungness book shows two pictures of a Wildcat, refered to as 20T, with the V8 and Bignotti's comment "needs more development".
In the '79 Hungness yearbook there are three Drake V8's listed as entries. The #40 Leader Card car for Sheldon Kinser, which was used in practice by George Snider. The #55 and a spare (without a number) for Lindsey Hopkins, but no assigned drivers (did these cars even show up?).
You have to be careful of photos of the other 1979 Hopkins cars. One of them (sometimes #51, at other times #15) used a lay-down Offy 4, which could be mistaken for a Drake V8 in some photos.
The '78 Hungness book shows two pictures of a Wildcat, refered to as 20T, with the V8 and Bignotti's comment "needs more development".
In the '79 Hungness yearbook there are three Drake V8's listed as entries. The #40 Leader Card car for Sheldon Kinser, which was used in practice by George Snider. The #55 and a spare (without a number) for Lindsey Hopkins, but no assigned drivers (did these cars even show up?).
You have to be careful of photos of the other 1979 Hopkins cars. One of them (sometimes #51, at other times #15) used a lay-down Offy 4, which could be mistaken for a Drake V8 in some photos.
#7
Don Capps
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Posted 05 July 2002 - 15:53
Gerr,
I did a few doubletakes and had to get the magnifying glass out a few occasions to make sure that it was a "Drake" or a "Drake" when eyeballing the Hopkins cars -- I admit I was befuddled at first until the "Aha!" light came on....
Ever notice that there are some real gaps in our knowledge of events only a few decades old?
I did a few doubletakes and had to get the magnifying glass out a few occasions to make sure that it was a "Drake" or a "Drake" when eyeballing the Hopkins cars -- I admit I was befuddled at first until the "Aha!" light came on....
Ever notice that there are some real gaps in our knowledge of events only a few decades old?
#8
fines
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Posted 06 July 2002 - 08:43
Thanks, all! 
The trouble is that most sources simply say"Offy" when they mean several different engines. In the seventies alone, there were four different turbocharged versions put out by Drake Engineering:
So far I haven't seen a picture of the V8 or a V8-engined car, although one caption of a Morales car at Phoenix in 1979 says so, but I don't belive that's true.
And sorry to appear to be bashing Phil again, but his "weaknesses" go further than just the engine info. In fact, his mistakes are almost well spread amongst all items. But, to emphasise again, this is not to begrudge his work, in effect I think it's inevitable considering the magnitude of his efforts (almost a hundred years covered)! Better that than nothing at all!!!!
Huh, that's what I thought...Originally posted by Don Capps
Ever notice that there are some real gaps in our knowledge of events only a few decades old?
The trouble is that most sources simply say"Offy" when they mean several different engines. In the seventies alone, there were four different turbocharged versions put out by Drake Engineering:
- the wide valve angle 159
- the DGS
- the narrow valve angle Drake-Offy
- the V8
So far I haven't seen a picture of the V8 or a V8-engined car, although one caption of a Morales car at Phoenix in 1979 says so, but I don't belive that's true.
And sorry to appear to be bashing Phil again, but his "weaknesses" go further than just the engine info. In fact, his mistakes are almost well spread amongst all items. But, to emphasise again, this is not to begrudge his work, in effect I think it's inevitable considering the magnitude of his efforts (almost a hundred years covered)! Better that than nothing at all!!!!
#9
Don Capps
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Posted 06 July 2002 - 14:06
Michael,
I will try to remember to scan a few pictures of the engine and of the Drake DT160 in the Ligntning and send them to you.
Phil has the same lightning rod problem as Paul Sheldon & the F1 Register -- when you are about the first to really try to lay it all out, you work from what you have or what you can find and then everyone else comes along and tells you have you goofed up and got it wrong....using information you didn't have....
Generally, Printz and Harms were faced with a huge task when they began their separate excursions into the murky world of AAA and USAC records, especially in regards to chassis and even engine identities, particularly in the AAA eras.
As I have been fortunate enough to now have access to some of the records available that I didn't have before, they are still not at all what you would expect. You have to do considerable reading between the lines and head scratching to sort some of it out and relate this to that and...
Yep, there are errors and omissions in the Harms (and Printz) data, just like that of Sheldon and Crew -- but we have to balance that against the fact that Phil has made the data available and it is quite good to use as a baseline for these events.
As an aside, as time has gone on, I have found that I have begun to use a method to record my race information which works for me pretty much regardless of the series being recorded, although it originated with the AAA/USAC/CART series. Here is a random sample:
I like this format since it is very flexible and allows information to be tailored for a series. It is arranged how I generally "think" about the data, with places to insert chassis numbers or whatever else you want into the format.
I will try to remember to scan a few pictures of the engine and of the Drake DT160 in the Ligntning and send them to you.
Phil has the same lightning rod problem as Paul Sheldon & the F1 Register -- when you are about the first to really try to lay it all out, you work from what you have or what you can find and then everyone else comes along and tells you have you goofed up and got it wrong....using information you didn't have....
Generally, Printz and Harms were faced with a huge task when they began their separate excursions into the murky world of AAA and USAC records, especially in regards to chassis and even engine identities, particularly in the AAA eras.
As I have been fortunate enough to now have access to some of the records available that I didn't have before, they are still not at all what you would expect. You have to do considerable reading between the lines and head scratching to sort some of it out and relate this to that and...
Yep, there are errors and omissions in the Harms (and Printz) data, just like that of Sheldon and Crew -- but we have to balance that against the fact that Phil has made the data available and it is quite good to use as a baseline for these events.
As an aside, as time has gone on, I have found that I have begun to use a method to record my race information which works for me pretty much regardless of the series being recorded, although it originated with the AAA/USAC/CART series. Here is a random sample:
Round 01, 1 April 1984 Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach Long Beach Long Beach, California 112 laps of 1.67-mile street circuit, 187.040 miles Weather: Sunny, cool Attendance: 55,000 1st Mario Andretti No. 3, Newman-Haas Racing, Budweiser Lola T800 – Cosworth DFX 112 laps, 2hr 15min 23.0sec, 82.989mph Start: 1st, 1min 06.263sec, 90.729mph 2nd Geoff Brabham No. 18, Kraco Racing, Electrolux/ Kraco Car Stereo March 84C – Cosworth DFX 112 laps, 2hr 16min 26.2sec Start: 8th, 1min 07.729sec 3rd Tom Sneva No. 4, Mayer Motor Racing, Texaco Star March 84C – Cosworth DFX 111 laps Start: 15th, 1min 09.054sec
I like this format since it is very flexible and allows information to be tailored for a series. It is arranged how I generally "think" about the data, with places to insert chassis numbers or whatever else you want into the format.
#10
john glenn printz
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Posted 23 January 2011 - 18:28
MORE INFORMATION OR JUST MORE CONFUSION? There were three cars entered at Indianapolis in 1979 using the Drake type "DT 160" as the powerplant. One was car No. 40 for Sheldon Kinser, entered by Leader Cards. The other two machines were both entered by Lindsey Hopkins, with one given No. 55 and the other with no number. No driver was nominated for either of the Hopkins cars.
I still remember the P. A. at the Speedway announcing in the early morning that Hurley Haywood would attempt to qualify a Hopkins' owned Drake V8 powered car. I believe the day was May 19. Haywood was a rookie at Indy in 1979 and was mostly known as an ace long distance sports car pilot. Hurley had had no trouble passing his rookie tests. On May 19 Hurley was to be the first man out when the time trials were to start. Using the Hopkins' Drake V8, Haywood turned a first lap at over 190 mph but then the motor went sour and the run was flagged off. His 2nd lap was 182.741 mph and the 3rd was 173.283. After the run Haywood said (quote), "The motor just started to fade. The handling went terribly wrong, too. I wanted the crew to start the run a lap earlier than they did, but I couldn't signal them." The crew chief on Haywood's Drake V8 was Mike Devin. Neither Haywood or a Drake V8 made the Indianapolis lineup for 1979.
I have not been able however to verify in any source that the Hopkins' car that Haywood tried to qualify on the morning of May 19 was powered by a Drake V8. Here I am relying on my memory, but I think that is correct.
The Carl Hungness 1979 Indianapolis 500 Yearbook has almost no information on the Drake V8 but one of its writers states that the Hopkins entry No. 15, which made the race, as driven by Johnny Parsons was powered by a Drake V8. This however is not true. This car (as No. 41) was originally assigned to Haywood but was then turned over to Parsons when Johnny's team car proved troublesome, i.e., Parsons was the number one pilot and the rookie Haywood was number two on the Hopkins team for 1979 at Indianapolis. This car, a Drake/Lightning, was run in the race as No. 15. Parsons had qualified it for the 9th starting position on the first day (May 13) of the 1979 time trials.
Art Sparks was a little involved initially with the Drake V8. On a trip to Germany, Art met German engineer Hans Hermann, who later designed the Drake V8 motor. Hans worked for the B.M.W. firm located in Munich. Sparks was impressed with Hermann and Art put Hermann and Dale Drake in contact with each other. The Drake V8 was entiredly comissioned by the Drake Engineering Company and Sales company. Sparks maintained that the Hermann designed V8 was no good because the bottom half of the engine lacked all strength and had no rigidity. I remember seeing either the blueprints and/or photographs of the Drake V8 and it seemed to have little or no crankcase. Gene Banning in his book SPEEDWAY (1983), about Art Sparks, has nothing about any of these matters.
Gordon Eliot White, in his book OFFENHAUSER (2004), on pages 178-179, says that the main problem with this V8 was the timing belts. In any case the engine never qualified at Indianapolis and was a total failure. I believe it did start in a few other races. As far as I know the Drake V8 was never referred to as an Offy or Offenhauser among the knowledgeable. There were a few articles of the day, that were published in the automobile magazines c. 1979, about the new Drake V8 motor which could provide more information, but none are immediately at hand.
The first Drake V8s became available in the second half of 1978. It was rated at 570 horsepower at 9500 rpm and was made to compete with the Cosworth V8, which had became the dominant powerplant during the 1977 USAC season.
P.S. The "Hans Hermann" here, I believe, was not the German driver who drove in the early 1950's in the big European races but perhaps it might be a son of his. I, in any case, have always wondered about it.
I still remember the P. A. at the Speedway announcing in the early morning that Hurley Haywood would attempt to qualify a Hopkins' owned Drake V8 powered car. I believe the day was May 19. Haywood was a rookie at Indy in 1979 and was mostly known as an ace long distance sports car pilot. Hurley had had no trouble passing his rookie tests. On May 19 Hurley was to be the first man out when the time trials were to start. Using the Hopkins' Drake V8, Haywood turned a first lap at over 190 mph but then the motor went sour and the run was flagged off. His 2nd lap was 182.741 mph and the 3rd was 173.283. After the run Haywood said (quote), "The motor just started to fade. The handling went terribly wrong, too. I wanted the crew to start the run a lap earlier than they did, but I couldn't signal them." The crew chief on Haywood's Drake V8 was Mike Devin. Neither Haywood or a Drake V8 made the Indianapolis lineup for 1979.
I have not been able however to verify in any source that the Hopkins' car that Haywood tried to qualify on the morning of May 19 was powered by a Drake V8. Here I am relying on my memory, but I think that is correct.
The Carl Hungness 1979 Indianapolis 500 Yearbook has almost no information on the Drake V8 but one of its writers states that the Hopkins entry No. 15, which made the race, as driven by Johnny Parsons was powered by a Drake V8. This however is not true. This car (as No. 41) was originally assigned to Haywood but was then turned over to Parsons when Johnny's team car proved troublesome, i.e., Parsons was the number one pilot and the rookie Haywood was number two on the Hopkins team for 1979 at Indianapolis. This car, a Drake/Lightning, was run in the race as No. 15. Parsons had qualified it for the 9th starting position on the first day (May 13) of the 1979 time trials.
Art Sparks was a little involved initially with the Drake V8. On a trip to Germany, Art met German engineer Hans Hermann, who later designed the Drake V8 motor. Hans worked for the B.M.W. firm located in Munich. Sparks was impressed with Hermann and Art put Hermann and Dale Drake in contact with each other. The Drake V8 was entiredly comissioned by the Drake Engineering Company and Sales company. Sparks maintained that the Hermann designed V8 was no good because the bottom half of the engine lacked all strength and had no rigidity. I remember seeing either the blueprints and/or photographs of the Drake V8 and it seemed to have little or no crankcase. Gene Banning in his book SPEEDWAY (1983), about Art Sparks, has nothing about any of these matters.
Gordon Eliot White, in his book OFFENHAUSER (2004), on pages 178-179, says that the main problem with this V8 was the timing belts. In any case the engine never qualified at Indianapolis and was a total failure. I believe it did start in a few other races. As far as I know the Drake V8 was never referred to as an Offy or Offenhauser among the knowledgeable. There were a few articles of the day, that were published in the automobile magazines c. 1979, about the new Drake V8 motor which could provide more information, but none are immediately at hand.
The first Drake V8s became available in the second half of 1978. It was rated at 570 horsepower at 9500 rpm and was made to compete with the Cosworth V8, which had became the dominant powerplant during the 1977 USAC season.
P.S. The "Hans Hermann" here, I believe, was not the German driver who drove in the early 1950's in the big European races but perhaps it might be a son of his. I, in any case, have always wondered about it.
Edited by john glenn printz, 10 May 2012 - 15:01.
