37 replies to this topic

[Arturo Pereira]

Model
4CLT/48

Produced
1948-1950

Number of cars built
18

Engine

Engine type
in-line 4

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
1,490.8 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6:1

Maximum power output
260 bhp at 7,000 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
two Roots superchargers, a single Weber 50 DCO (52 DCO) carburettor mounted ahead of the superchargers

Ignition
single-plug, Marelli ST24DAS magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular with two main side members and cross members

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
151.57 in. (3,850 mm)

Width
55.12 in (1,400 mm)

Height
39.37 in. (1,000 mm)

Wheelbase
98.42 in. (2,500 mm)

Front/rear track
49.21/47.24 in. (1,250/1,200 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 3.25x17 - 4.00x16

Tyres
front 5.25x17-5.00x17; rear 6.00x16-6.50x16; Pirelli, Englebert, Dunlop

Dry weight
1,389 lbs (630 kg)

Fuel tank
26.40 Imp. gall. (120 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
161.5-168 mph (260-270 km/h)

Notes
two examples of the 4CLT/50 were built in 1950 with 1,720.2 cc engines (bore/stroke78x90 mm)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Model
8CLT

Produced
1950

Number of cars built
2

Engine

Engine type
in-line 8

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
2,981.7 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6.5:1

Maximum power output
430 bhp at 6,500 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
two Roots superchargers, a single Weber 52 DCO carburettor mounted ahead of the superchargers

Ignition
single-plug, Marelli magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular with two main side members and cross members

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers

Rear suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm and sector

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
151.57 in. (3,850 mm)

Width
55.12 in (1,400 mm)

Height
39.37 in. (1,000 mm)

Wheelbase
107.08 in. (2,720 mm)

Front/rear track
54.72/53.34 in. (1,390/1,355 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 3.50x19-5.00x20

Tyres
front 5.50x19; rear 7.00x20; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,763 lbs (800 kg)

Fuel tank
26.40 Imp. gall. (120 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
199 mph (320 km/h)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model
A6GCM

Produced
1951-1953

Number of cars built
12 (5 transformed into 250Fs by changing the engine)

Engine

Engine type
in-line 6

Bore/stroke
72.6x80 mm (1951-52); 75x75 mm (1952); 76.2x72 mm (1953)

Displacement
1,987 cc (1951-52); 1,988.1 cc (1952); 1,959.5 cc (1953)

Position
front

Compression ratio
13.5:1 (1951-52); 12:1 (1953)

Maximum power output
160 bhp at 6,500 rpm (1951-52); 180 bhp at 7,300 rpm (1952); 197 bhp at 8,000 rpm (1953)

Valve timing
two valves per cylinder, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
naturally aspirated, three Weber 38 DCO3 (40 DCO3) carburettors

Ignition
single-plug, Marelli ST25DAS magneto (1951-52) - twin-plug, two Marelli magnetos (1952-53)

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular with two main side members and cross members

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
141.73 in. (3,600 mm)

Width
59.05 in. (1,500 mm)

Height
39.37 in. (1,000 mm)

Wheelbase
1951-52 - 89.76 in. (2,280 mm); 1953 - 90.94 in. (2,310 mm)

Front/rear track
1951-52 - 50.31/47.24 in. (1,278/1,200 mm); 1953 - 48.23/45.67 in. (1,225/1,160 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 4.00x15 (1951-52); 5.00x16 (1953)

Tyres
front 5.00x15-5.50x15 (1951-52); 5.25x16 (1953); rear 6.00x15-6.50x15 (1951-52); 6.50x16 (1953); Pirelli

Dry weight
1951-52: 1,212-1,234 lbs (550-560 kg); 1953: 1,256 lbs (570 kg)

Fuel tank
44 Imp. gall. (200 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
155 mph (250 km/h)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model
250F

Produced
1954-1958

Number of cars built
26

Engine

Engine type
in-line 6

Bore/stroke
84x75 mm

Displacement
2,493.8 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
12:1 (10.8:1 in 1958)

Maximum power output
240-270 bhp at 7,200-8,000 rpm

Valve timing
two valves per cylinder, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
naturally aspirated, three Weber 42 DCO3-45 DCO3 carburettors (also indirect and direct fuel injection in 1956)

Ignition
twin-plug, two Marelli magnetos

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse in unit with differential

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular space-frame (from 1957)

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
de Dion rear axle, transverse leaf spring, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
159.45 in. (4,050 mm); from 1957 168.11 in. (4,270 mm)

Width
38.58 in. (980 mm); from 1957 35.82 in. (910 mm)

Height
37.40 in. (950 mm); from 1957 35.43 in. (900 mm)

Wheelbase
89.76 in. (2,280 mm); from 1957 87.60 in. (2,225 mm)

Front/rear track
51.18/49.21 in. (1,300/1,250 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, front 4.00x15, rear 5.50x16-6.00x17

Tyres
front 5.25x16-5.50x16-6.50x16; rear 6.50x16-7.00x16-7.00x17; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,477-1,389 lbs (670-630 kg); 1958 1,212 lbs (550 kg)

Fuel tank
44 Imp. gall. (200 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
180 mph (290 km/h)

Notes
5-speed gearbox from 1955; wheelbase shortened to 2,200 mm in 1958 with front track of 1,310 mm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Model
250F T2

Produced
1957

Number of cars built
2

Engine

Engine type
60° V12

Bore/stroke
68.7x56 mm

Displacement
2,490.9 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
11.3:1

Maximum power output
310 bhp at 10,000 rpm

Valve timing
two valves per cylinder, twin overhead camshafts per cylinder bank

Fuel feed
naturally aspirated, six Weber 35IDM carburettors

Ignition
twin-plug, two special Marelli distributors with 24 coils

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
5-speed + reverse in unit with differential

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular space-frame

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
de Dion rear axle, transverse leaf spring, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, two centrifugal pumps

Dimensions

Length
171.26 in. (4,350 mm)

Width
35.43 in. (900 mm)

Height
35.43 in. (900 mm)

Wheelbase
90.55 in. (2,300 mm)

Front/rear track
51.57/49.21 in. (1,310/1,250 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, front 4.00x16-4.00x17; rear 5.50x16-6.00x17

Tyres
front 5.50x16-6.50x16-5.50x17; rear 7.00x16-7.00x17; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,433 lbs (650 kg)

Fuel tank
50.59 Imp. gall. (230 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
189 mph (305 km/h)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Model
420/M/58 Eldorado

Produced
1958-1959

Number of cars built
1

Engine

Engine type
90° V8

Bore/stroke
93.8x75.8 mm

Displacement
4,190.4 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
12:1

Maximum power output
410 bhp at 8,000 rpm

Valve timing
two valves per cylinder, twin overhead camshafts per cylinder bank

Fuel feed
naturally aspirated, four Weber 46 IDM carburettors

Ignition
twin-plug, Marelli magnetos

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
2-speed + reverse on rear axle

Chassis

Bodywork
Formula Indy aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular space-frame

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic dampers

Rear suspension
de Dion rear axle, transverse leaf spring, twin hydraulic dampers

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes

Steering
worm and sector

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
188.97 in. (4,800 mm)

Width
47.24 in. (1,200 mm)

Height
43.30 in. (1,100 mm)

Wheelbase
94.49 in. (2,400 mm)

Front/rear track
51.18/49.21 in. (1,300/1,250 mm)

Wheels
Halibrand steel wheels

Tyres
front 7.60x16-8.00x16; rear 8.00x18; Firestone

Dry weight
1,671 lbs (758 kg)

Fuel tank
55 Imp. gall. (250 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
217 mph (350 km/h)

Notes
known as 420M/59 in 1959

[David McKinney]

1) If the second picture down is supposed to be an 8CLT it needs to be replaced. Looks more like an 8CL to me
2) The designation 'T2' is usually applied to the revised 1957 six-cylinder 'lightweight' 250Fs, though one of the V12s used a similar chassis; both the others used frames of earlier design
3) I didn't mention it when we were discussing the Eldorado on another thread, because I couldn't find my source - but I'm sure there were two cars

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by David McKinney
1) If the second picture down is supposed to be an 8CLT it needs to be replaced. Looks more like an 8CL to me
2) The designation 'T2' is usually applied to the revised 1957 six-cylinder 'lightweight' 250Fs, though one of the V12s used a similar chassis; both the others used frames of earlier design
3) I didn't mention it when we were discussing the Eldorado on another thread, because I couldn't find my source - but I'm sure there were two cars

1) from the official Maserati website, this is an 8CLT picture


Maserati WebSite

and this is the picture of the 8CL, taken from the same offical Maserati website



2) As for the 6 cylinder Maserati 250F, look at this site Classic Red: the Maserati 250F series

There says:
The Specifications of the 250/F1

Engine: In-line six cylinder; 84mm x 75mm = 2492.5cc; compression ratio 12:1; 1954 – 240 bhp @ 7200 rpm, 1957 – 270 bhp @ 8000 rpm; aluminium alloy block; dry cast iron liners; dry sump; seven main bearings, plain; steel crankshaft with six pins; steel connecting rods; double overhead camshafts, two valves per cylinder; single plug; weight with clutch and bellhousing, 197 kg; Marelli ignition; three Weber twin choke 42 DCO3 carbs; standard fuel mixture, 50% methanol, 35% gasoline (usually 80 octane), 10% acetone, 4% benzol, and 1% caster oil. The V-12: 60 degrees between banks; 68.5mm x 66mm = 2476cc; twin plug ignition; three Weber 35 IDM carbs; 310 bhp @ 10,000 rpm.

Chassis: chrome molybdenum tubular frame; front suspension, parallel unequal wishbones; rear suspension, de Dion rear axle; Houdaille rotary vane shocks; brakes, Maserati aluminium alloy drums with two leading shoes front, single leading shoe rear; Borrano 16-inch aluminium alloy rims; aluminium alloy bodywork; clutch, Maserati single plate; gearbox, four speed in unit with rear differential; ZF limited slip differential.

Measurements: wheelbase, 2280mm; front track, 1300mm; rear track, 1250mm; overall length, 4050mm; overall width, 980mm; overall height, 950mm; curb weight, 630 kg; fuel capacity, 200 litres; oil capacity, 20 litres

Tyres: front, 5.50 x 16; rear, 7.00 x 16; Pirelli Stelvio Corse

Significant developments:

December 1953, prototype makes first appearance at Modena, crashes
January 1954, first race race appearance
January 1954, Juan Fangio wins GP de la Republica Argentina
June 1954, Juan Fangio wins GP de Belgique
August 1954, oil tank repositioned to tail behind fuel tank, which is now heavily riveted
October 1954, revised bodywork; revised plumbing for the rear mounted oil tank
April 1955, first use of Weber 45 DCO3 carbs
July 1955, first appearance of five-speed gearbox on Roberto Mieres car at Aintree
September 1955, first appearance of the 250F streamliner
May 1955, Stirling Moss wins GP de Monaco
June 1956, new bodywork appears on works cars
September 1956, Stirling Moss wins GP d’Italia
December 1956, first appearance of the ‘lightweight’ cars
January 1957, Juan Fangio wins GP de la Republica Argentina
April 1957, first appearance of the V-12
May 1957, first appearance of the V-12 with five-speed gearbox
May 1957, Juan Fangio wins GP de Monaco
July 1957, Juan Fangio wins GP de l’Automobile Club de France
August 1957, Juan Fangio wins GP von Deutschland
September 1957, revised V-12 appears

So there was a 250F with a V12 engine, as the official MAserati site states, and it were some of the T2s i.e. Chassis 2530 and 2531.


3) I only referenced Maserati's official information source. Here is an article about the race where this car was used The Race of Two Worlds and this was the car, driven by Stirling Moss

Here http://www.automotoc...rati/420M58.htm also mention 1 chassis.

However, at the site where all the serial number of the Maserati's chassis are showed, it says that the 420 series consisted of 3 chassis. 4201 - prototype 4.2liter engine; 4202 4.2liter engine only and the 4203 type 420/M/58 Eldorado Special, so maybe they built 3 and not 1 420 chassis

[Wolf]

Arturo, I believe A6SSG is missing. 'Twas the model Fangio drove in '53...

[Vitesse2]

Same driver, same number, same event, different cars. So definitely more than one!

[Roger Clark]

I have never seen any suggestion that there was more than one 420 at Monza. The car was tried with Weber carburettors and with fuel injection which could account for the difference in bonnet shape. I don't know what Maserati might have built later, but always believed that there was only one car.

[Wolf]

What about tank filler lid, Roger? Assuming it fell off, the lid in first pic is quite bigger than the orifice in second...

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Wolf
Arturo, I believe A6SSG is missing. 'Twas the model Fangio drove in '53...

The Maserati A6GCS (53 model)

and was driven by Fangio at the 37th Targa Florio on 14/05/53.

There was another car named the same (the 47 model) , and was driven by Fangio on 02/06/49 at Caracalla, Rome, Italy.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Same driver, same number, same event, different cars. So definitely more than one!

I am afraid you are wrong. It is the same car with different bonnet shape.

[Vitesse2]

If you look closer there are more detail differences. Note the extra air intake just ahead of the screen on the upper picture and the lack of a Maserati badge on the nose of the lower car. The upper picture shows an extra Eldorado logo in front of the screen too, while the cockpit edges and screens themselves look slightly different as well. The lower car has no fuel filler cover on the fin (OK - they may not have put it back on!) - ah Wolf beat me to that one! And the upper picture shows a strap holding the bonnet down, but there's no trace of it on the lower. There's no mirror on the lower car either, nor any evidence of one having been mounted.

[Roger Clark]

I can#t explain the differences but: "Alfieri and Collotti worked night and day for 20 days to produce a truly magnificent machine" (DSJ). With this and Maserati's financial position, I can't believe there was a second car that nobody mentioned.

[David McKinney]

The 8CL looked like a long 4CL - as in both photos.
The 8CLT looked like a long 4CLT, squatter and rounder than the earlier car

I am not questioning the V12 250F's designation as a separate model, merely the use of the term 'T2' to describe it.
The 1954-56 cars are sometimes referred to as T1s, the 1957 lightweights as T2s and the 1958 Piccolo model as the T3, regardless of whether they had six-cylinder or V12 engines. I'm not sure that these were official factory designations, but they are certainly used by modern-day Maserati historians.
The first car with a V12 engine was a T1 (2523), previously - and later - run as a six. One of the two new cars (2530) used a T2 chassis, and the other (2531) one with offset transmission as seen in the two 1956 Monza T1s.

I'm sure there was originally only one Eldorado Maserati - the other came later. My information comes from an unpublished article by Franco Zagari, to which I no longer have access.

The designation A6SSG is a non-factory one, used in some circles either for the 1953 update of the A6GCM, or for the 250F-engined versions. I don't think anyone (apart from Anthony Pritchard) uses it

[Barrie Hobkirk]

2) As for the 6 cylinder Maserati 250F, look at this site Classic Red: the Maserati 250F series

So there was a 250F with a V12 engine, as the official Maserati site states, and it were some of the T2s i.e. Chassis 2530 and 2531.

Arturo,

A note of caution. Do not, I repeat, do not use sites on the internet to do your 250F research. Most are, to say the least, in error and mis-leading. The 2530 site you referenced actually show pictures of a 6 cylinder 250F chassis number 2526 that happened to be renumbered by the factory in 1958 to number 2530.
Best advice I can give is get a hold of DSJ's book on the 250F and also read Doug Nye's Autosport 24 September 1981 article, DSJ's series of April, July and September 1986 Motor Sport, Autocourse "History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65" by Doug Nye, and David McKinney's series of October and November 1995 in Motor Sport. Once you have absorbed all that, you will be in a much better position to state some facts.

Cheers,
Barrie Hobkirk

"The works team used quite a number of cars and often made use of old bits to assemble cars for their own use; consequently it is not possible, or tactful, to follow all the movements of some particular cars."
DSJ, 1966

[cryo]

To Arturo Pereira
Interesting information
But I have questions to you. As I know in 1950 was three more Maserati cars/modifications on GP’s.
There are Maserati 4CL, Maserati 4CLT/50 and Maserati Milano. Do you have tech info of them? Or they were just as modifications?


Hm…here is I find photos which said that all of those 4 cars are Maserati 4cl??? I don’t think so…





Also this one was sign as a Maserati 4CLT/50


Regards,
Maxim

[Doug Nye]

There's some really misleading nonsense being committed to this thread - not least the use of the discredited old 'Autocourse'/Anthony Pritchard 'SSG' fable. Come on chaps - pull yourselves together.

DCN

[Mark Beckman]

Arturo did I ever tell you I have an OSCA 1500 cc motor sitting under my house, thats the race motor not the sports car, it even runs :-)

I'll get a pic of it one day and post it.

Hey Doug Nye why dont you help out with corrective info rather than just dissing on others.

[Felix Muelas]

Welcome Mr Hobkirk

Thanks for coming. We' ve been waiting for some time, you know ;)

Un abrazo

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Barrie Hobkirk
A note of caution. Do not, I repeat, do not use sites on the internet to do your 250F research. Most are, to say the least, in error and mis-leading.

Whilst I higly esteem your authority on the matter, I also think very high of our host, Don Capps . Accordingly, it was --and still is-- a honour to us at 8W to host his Classic Red: the Maserati 250F series .

As the article has been subject to your previous comment above , should we take the view that

a) You' ve read it throughout and
b) You basically disaprove it because in error or mis-leading?

PS : After all, Don takes an extremelly careful approach at the start...Denis Jenkinson, Doug Nye, Paul Sheldon, and Barrie Hobkirk have all expended considerable time, effort, and brainpower into sorting out the complexities of the riddles of the Maserati chassis game. And, as could be expected, none exactly agree with the others so have a look at it…

[Wolf]

Originally posted by David McKinney

The designation A6SSG is a non-factory one, used in some circles either for the 1953 update of the A6GCM, or for the 250F-engined versions. I don't think anyone (apart from Anthony Pritchard) uses it

With all due respect David, both Mike Lang's 'Grand Prix!' and David Hodges' 'A-Z of Formula Racing Cars' use the A6SSG designation....

[dretceterini]

Barrie and Doug:

I'll get to the point...

This is YOUR area of expetise...and you have been working on this for 30 years...so...at what point does the A6 really become a 250F, in your opinions...and which chassis number and what date?

I am NOT a Maserati expert..and don't have time to count louvers or rivets...



Stu

[dretceterini]

Mark:

If I may interject... Just how much DO you want for the OSCA motor and what is it's S/N??

Stu

[Wolf]

As for first question, (warning: I'm by no standards a very informed let alone the expert) I'd say the A6 cars with 250F engine are 'crosbreeds' which You ask about. I think Don puts them into 250F chassis record, but always points out that it was A6GCM/A6SSG chassis.

[Don Capps]

First of all, heed Barrie's words well. Had I to do it all over again -- not sure that I would..

I found that no sooner did I think I had a handle on something and was convinced I was correct -- or at least "right" -- than something would pop up and then ..... :

On matters to do with the 250F, I humbly bow to Barrie. I fully admit defeat and as time went on -- with the odd "hint" from Barrie -- began to see that while often close, I was often just that -- close.


Welcome aboard, Barrie! I, for one, am truly delighted to see you join the forum.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Hey Doug Nye why dont you help out with corrective info rather than just dissing on others.

What can you mean - as in 'dissing from a great height, perhaps'? Presumably you mean 'disrespect' as employed as a verb which is always sure to ignite my already SHORT FUSE? Nay laddie - don't get upset, nearly all my posts are either tongue-in-cheek or well-meant and friendly. Those words were meant as simple encouragement, for there are MANY people in TNF who are admirably well qualified to set the record straight and some - such as hugely welcome new arrival Bazza the Great from Vancouver (aka Barrie Hobkirk - what-ho Barrie!) - can do it far far far more intelligibly than I...

NCD

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Barrie Hobkirk




Arturo,

A note of caution. Do not, I repeat, do not use sites on the internet to do your 250F research. Most are, to say the least, in error and mis-leading. The 2530 site you referenced actually show pictures of a 6 cylinder 250F chassis number 2526 that happened to be renumbered by the factory in 1958 to number 2530.
Best advice I can give is get a hold of DSJ's book on the 250F and also read Doug Nye's Autosport 24 September 1981 article, DSJ's series of April, July and September 1986 Motor Sport, Autocourse "History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65" by Doug Nye, and David McKinney's series of October and November 1995 in Motor Sport. Once you have absorbed all that, you will be in a much better position to state some facts.

Cheers,
Barrie Hobkirk

"The works team used quite a number of cars and often made use of old bits to assemble cars for their own use; consequently it is not possible, or tactful, to follow all the movements of some particular cars."
DSJ, 1966

Barrie,
thanks for the advice.

Anyway, the 2530 site I referenced states:
2530 (2526) - This was a V-12 chassis built specifically for that purpose and delivered in 1957. However, 2530 was fitted with a 6-cylinder engine in 1958.The bodywork of 2530 was similar to the works cars that season with the only differences being those necessitated by the V-12. As noted, after testing the V-12, then being fitted was a normal 250F engine, it was taken back to the factory and not seen again until Argentina 1960. Chassis 2526 was renumbered 2530 when sold to Creus, which makes for some serious headaches since supposedly there were two chassis numbered 2530 on the grid at Buenos Aires. Again, no one said any of this had to make sense or follow any semblence of logic.
So there was a 2530 chassis and a 2526 that the factory renumbered to 2530 ... where is the problem ?? Anybody can read that.

I do not try to get the reason. I only try to post information which I suppose is as trusty as the names that support that information.

Arturo

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by cryo
To Arturo Pereira
Interesting information
But I have questions to you. As I know in 1950 was three more Maserati cars/modifications on GP’s.
There are Maserati 4CL, Maserati 4CLT/50 and Maserati Milano. Do you have tech info of them? Or they were just as modifications?


Hm…here is I find photos which said that all of those 4 cars are Maserati 4cl??? I don’t think so…

Also this one was sign as a Maserati 4CLT/50
Regards,
Maxim

Picture 1. Joe Fry drove a Maserati 4CL in the 1950 British GP (Forix).
Picture 2. I do not know which model is #34 (second picture), though it can be a 4CL.
Picture 3. it is a Maserati 4CL
Picture 4. it seems to be a 4CL too
Picture 5. it is a 4CLT/50

Info about


Model
4CL

Produced
1939-1947

Number of cars built
24

Engine

Engine type
in-line 4

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
1,490.8 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6.5:1

Maximum power output
220 bhp at 8,000 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
Roots supercharger, a single Weber 45 DCO carburettor mounted ahead of the supercharger

Ignition
single-plug, Scintilla magneto (Magneti Marelli St24 DAS from 1947)

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
alloy longitudinal girders and cross members

Front suspension
independent front suspension, torsion bars, Houdaille friction dampers

Rear suspension
leaf springs and Houdaille friction or hydraulic dampers

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm and sector

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
150.79 in. (3,830 mm)

Width
58.27 in. (1,480 mm)

Height
43.30 in. (1,100 mm)

Wheelbase
98.42 in. (2,500 mm)

Front/rear track
49.21/50.08 in. (1,250/1,272 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, front 3.50x17; rear 4.00x16

Tyres
fr/rear 5.00x17-6.00x16; Pirelli

Dry weight
1,389 lbs (630 kg)

Fuel tank
21 Imp. gall. (100 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
146-155 mph (235-250 km/h)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Model
4CLT/48

Produced
1948-1950

Number of cars built
18

Engine

Engine type
in-line 4

Bore/stroke
78x78 mm

Displacement
1,490.8 cc

Position
front

Compression ratio
6:1

Maximum power output
260 bhp at 7,000 rpm

Valve timing
four valves per cylinder set in a 90°V, twin overhead camshafts

Fuel feed
two Roots superchargers, a single Weber 50 DCO (52 DCO) carburettor mounted ahead of the superchargers

Ignition
single-plug, Marelli ST24DAS magneto

Lubrication
dual oil pumps (pressure and scavenge)

Transmission

Clutch
dry, multi-plate

Gearbox
4-speed + reverse

Chassis

Bodywork
aluminium-bodied single seater

Chassis
tubular with two main side members and cross members

Front suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Rear suspension
helical springs, hydraulic Houdaille dampers and anti-roll bar

Brakes
hydraulic drum brakes on the wheels

Steering
worm gear

Cooling system
water-cooled, centrifugal pump

Dimensions

Length
151.57 in. (3,850 mm)

Width
55.12 in (1,400 mm)

Height
39.37 in. (1,000 mm)

Wheelbase
98.42 in. (2,500 mm)

Front/rear track
49.21/47.24 in. (1,250/1,200 mm)

Wheels
wire wheels, 3.25x17 - 4.00x16

Tyres
front 5.25x17-5.00x17; rear 6.00x16-6.50x16; Pirelli, Englebert, Dunlop

Dry weight
1,389 lbs (630 kg)

Fuel tank
26.40 Imp. gall. (120 litres)

Performance

Maximum speed
161.5-168 mph (260-270 km/h)

Notes
two examples of the 4CLT/50 were built in 1950 with 1,720.2 cc engines (bore/stroke78x90 mm)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AFAIK Maserati Milano was the name a Team founded by Ruggeri & Mario Speluzzi. They used Maseratis 4CLT/48 modificated. This Scuderia Milano raced in 1950 and 1951, but I could not find any pictures of its cars.

[Arturo Pereira]

Originally posted by Mark Beckman
Arturo did I ever tell you I have an OSCA 1500 cc motor sitting under my house, thats the race motor not the sports car, it even runs :-)

I'll get a pic of it one day and post it.

Hey Doug Nye why dont you help out with corrective info rather than just dissing on others.

OSCA 1500 ??? what's that ??

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Thank you all for the welcome.

I feel obliged to add some missing 250F details to the sites referenced.

On the matter of chassis’ 2526 and 2530. Start your thought process going on a train of two entirely separate cars. One on this side of the room and the other one way over there. They have nothing in common. Keep that in mind.

As David has mentioned, over the period of time that the factory produced the 250F they built three basic chassis models with a few off chute derivatives. For clarity, they are now commonly referred to by the historical community as the T-1, T-2, and T-3 chassis’. The T-1’s were the large tube, simple structure chassis’ built for the ’54, ’55 and ’56 seasons. The T-2’s were the smaller tube chassis’ built for the 1957 season. They were more complex and incorporated many diagonal braces. The T-3’s were even smaller tubes, with less diagonals and much smaller in overall size built in 1958.

Firstly, chassis 2526.
In mid 1956, as a measure to gain some straight-line speed, the factory produced an off chute to the T-1 chassis where by the engine drive-line would run diagonally across the car from just right of centre at the chassis’ front , past the driver’s left side, back to the transaxle at the rear. This allowed the driver to sit well down in the chassis as opposed to sitting over the driveshaft as per usual. This allowed for far lower profile bodywork and thus less frontal area. Commonly referred to as the ‘offset’ cars, two were completed by late summer, chassis’ 2525 and 2526. Used in the Italian GP, Moss won using 2525 while Behra retired 2626. Chassis 2525 was sold soon after the Italian GP to Tony Parravano and shipped to California in November 1956. Chassis 2526 was stored at the factory and only brought back to service once in 1957 because of a shortage of ready cars. Reports that the two chassis’ 2525 and 2526 were the cars taken to the 1956 Australian GP in December are incorrect. To be continued.

Now to the other side of the room and Chassis 2530.
After much experimentation with the V-12 test bed car (chassis 2522/23, which forms another story) the factory built a T-2 chassis derivative after chassis’ 2527, 2528, and 2529. This was chassis 2530 and was a stronger version of standard T-2 with the front end arranged to suit the V-12. The body was more bulbous and a larger capacity (than a standard T-2) unique shaped fuel tank formed the tail. Used only in practice for the ’57 French GP at Rouen, the car was put aside. (separate story)
Now to 1958 and Maserati’s financial troubles. Several cars were sold as is or were assembled bits and then sold. Many were given different chassis numbers to co-ordinate with the engine fitted. The V-12 was removed from chassis 2530. The chassis was reconfigured back to a 6-cylinder car and the bodywork also suitably revised back to suit but still retaining its larger shape and V-12 capacity fuel tank. Chassis 2530 was fitted with motor 2532, renumbered chassis 2532 and sat at the factory awaiting a buyer. It was involved in one or two sale deals that fell through but was eventually rented from the factory by Gino Munaron for the 1960 Argentine and Buenos Aires GP’s and returned to the factory. Within the year the car was sold to South America still with it’s Maserati 6-cylinder motor and raced by Rugero Peruzzo. The car went to Camillo Cristofaro for the 1961/62 season and was eventually fitted with the usual Chevrolet V-8 engine. By 1963 the car was looking a bit sad and further sightings are sketchy. On one of his car retrieval trips in 1972, Colin Crabbe brought back the remains of this car which only included a couple cahssis fragments. After many owners, the collection of parts diminished and grew but it was clear completion necessitated a new chassis. Since it’s identity, 2532, was at first thought to be Piccolo, (another story) a T-3 chassis was completed by Cameron Millar. It didn’t fit the bodywork. The chassis went back to Millar and eventually became CM-7. More new owners until the remains ended up with Nick Mason in England who arranged for Peter Shaw to restore the car. Peter had a T-2 chassis made and the car has been historically racing since 1982 looking virtually as it did (but better) when it left that factory in 1960. The car retains its V-12 radiator and unique V-12 fuel tank. In the rafters at Peter Shaw’s are pieces of the original 1957 V-12 / 1958 6-cylinder car bodywork still showing signs of the V-12 fitting. End of story, for now.

Back to the other side of the room and chassis 2526.
As I said, chassis 2526 was stored at the factory after the ’56 Italian GP and only brought back to service in 1957 because of a shortage of ready cars. It was actually raced by Fangio in the non-championship Reims race in mid 1957 still as chassis 2526. After which it was again stored.
Again to 1958 and Maserati’s financial troubles. Another of the cars assembled for re-sale was the V-12 test bed car 2522/23. That’s another story but briefly, it was put back to 6-cylinder form, given motor 2526 and sold as chassis 2526 to Keith Campbell. We refer to this car today as chassis 2522/23/26 and is owned by Peter Heuberger in Switzerland. With motor and chassis plate 2526 gone to another car, the second offset car (2526) was fitted with motor 2530 and renumbered 2530 as such. It was sold by the factory in early 1958 as chassis 2530 to Antonio Creus. After crashing it at the 1958 Siracuse GP, it was repaired by the factory and Creus took it to South America. By chance, this car was also entered in the 1960 Argentine and Buenos Aires GP’s. Both cars were there but with their own identities, 2530 and 2532, and nothing in common.
Before it could be molested by the fitting of a Chevy V-8, the car (2526 now 2530) was imported back to Europe in 1963 by an Italian dealer named Martinelli. Nino Farina demostrated the car before the 1965 Monaco GP. The car was bought by the brothers Schlumpf in March 1966 for 30,000 SF. The car is still in the museum that was created from their collection and retains engine (still offset) and chassis plate 2530 to this day.

Hope that helps everyone interested.

I'll try and do something soon on the A6GCM's that were fitted with 250F motors. Dates, chassis numbers etc.

Cheers,
Barrie

[Don Capps]

Now you understand why I prostrate myself in front of a True Master and accept my status as a mere Grasshopper.....


Actually, I understood the whole twisted story that Barrie told....which shows you how much a life I've had.... A few "Ahhhhs...." since I threw my hands up when the cars departed the GP business...

And these were the simple ones...

[dretceterini]

Being a theoretical physicist, I do not belive that all can be "known"...but when it comes to Maserati 250Fs, the closest to be able to come to the point of "knowledge" is Barrie

Barrie: WELCOME Sage of rivet and louver counters everywhere! And just how many 250 photos DO you have? I've heard as many as 2000!

Stu

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Stu,
It was Cameron Millar who, at our first meeting in 1992, bestowed the title "Rivit Counter" on me because I, at times, did just that to clarify the identity of some 250F's. Today, I compare the hand weld signature on chassis welds with period factory photographs to verify a cars original identity.

At last count, I had something like 16 to 17,000 photographs of the Maserati 250F but I must admit, that includes several hundred of the Interims, Replicas and the Tec-Mec. Although about 85% are period, I have been known to snap off a roll or two when I come across one I personally haven't photographed before.

Cheers,
Barrie

[dretceterini]

ARGHHHH! That's simply sacrilidge..even worse than a Chevy in a Siata 208!!

If I only had 15,000 "etceterini" photos, I could do one heck of a book... :

You can take that as a hint about doing a new 250 book...
;)

I spend hours counting louvers and rivits too...and have found some of these "etceterini" which cost all of $12.50 to build were rebodied and modified a dozen times!!



Stu

[cryo]

to Arturo Pereira
Thanks!
I was think that my questions are too easy for grands of history, but I was get reply back, and it's very pleasure.

Regards,
Maxim

[Arturo Pereira]

Barrie,
16 to 17000 pictures !!!!! what are we waiting to support Barrie's own site with all those ones and its history ?? That is a real treasure, a BIG piece of F1 history

Thank you for having enlighted us (me) with your knowledge.

cryo
np as you can see, I just love cars and I spend much of my free time looking for info about these beauties, but Barrie is a real Pro

Best regards,

Arturo

PS: I have been planning a visit to the Juan Manuel Fangio Museum at Balcarce in 2 weeks. I will get all the pictures a digital camera can get

[fines]

A huge welcome to Barrie Hobkirk!

Just one question for now: I have the suspicion that some (all?) 1953 A6GCMs were actually rebuilds of the 1952 cars. Right? Wrong? Maybe? Possibly? Probably? Nonsense?

[David M. Kane]

For what its worth Graham Gauld's "Racing Memories of Modena" is a fun read.

[Barry Lake]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
There's some really misleading nonsense being committed to this thread - not least the use of the discredited old 'Autocourse'/Anthony Pritchard 'SSG' fable. Come on chaps - pull yourselves together.

DCN

Doug, which year's Autocourse had Pritchard's reference to 'SSG'?

I ask because I can remember being confused by the two different designations back in 1955 when the Reg Hunt/Kevin Neal A6GCM came to Australia. It was more commonly referred to in local magazines as an A6SSG, eventually, I think as A6GCM.

Always wondered what triggered the confusion.

[Wolf]

Yeah, the less knowledgeable among us (why is everyone always looking in my direction when this phrase pops up ) could use a clarification of this whole GCM/SSG bussiness and the Pritchard references... Thanks in advance.