90 replies to this topic

[Buford]

So tell me a story. Tell me about Lucky Casner.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Maybe someone knows if this book is available in English??

"Lucky - L'histoire de Camoradi et de Lucky Casner", by Michel Bollée, 1999 in France
ISBN 2-9513642-0-2

[Barry Boor]

Although far from a biography, there is much about Lucky Casner in the Maserati Birdcage book by Joel E. Finn. You will certainly get a good insight into the way Camoradi was financed and the state they got into when Maserati were on the way out.

[Arjan de Roos]

Yeah, why not take out this old thread. I looked through the Oosthoek books on the Tipo 61 - 65 models and the 450S book. I wondered if any of the TNF-ers have some knowledge about who Casner really was. In person I mean. He was a fast talker and not a poor racer.

But was there more to the man?

[WINO]

There happens to be an eleven-page article on the man in the July/August 2005 issue of Vintage Motorsport.


WINO

[Seppi_0_917PA]

Originally posted by WINO
There happens to be an eleven-page article on the man in the July/August 2005 issue of Vintage Motorsport.

Make that "an excellent eleven-page article"! If you only buy one issue of Vintage Motorsport this year - buy the July/August 2005 issue.

[Arjan de Roos]

OK, than I need to find a good outlet for this mag in Holland. Thanks for the tip!

[Mac Lark]

Originally posted by Buford
So tell me a story. Tell me about Lucky Casner.

He had a pretty wife

[Ray Bell]

Without pics...

Whoops! Wrong forum!

[WINO]

Shirley Casner was a model and airline stewardess. Quite a knock-out in the fifties.


WINO

[Scribe06]

Originally posted by Buford
So tell me a story. Tell me about Lucky Casner.

As in the instance of why didn't the dog bark, that no one picked up on this invitation and told Buford the story of Lucky Casner is pretty remarkable.

As mentioned, the article in Vintage Motorsport is excellent and does justice to dear ol' Lucky.

Whatever else one might say or think about Casner, he was certainly someone whose passage through this corner of worldly activities was something that folks couldn't quite grasp while being utterly fascinated by the guy.

They don't quite come like him anymore....

[Lotus23]

I concur: the Vintage Motorsport article is excellent. A well-researched, nicely-balanced piece on a real character.

While I never met Lucky, I did get to see him run at LeMans 63, both on April test day and the race itself in June. He and Andre Simon shared a monster 5-liter Maser coupe which went like the hammers of hell until its transmission gave up in hour #4. They finished 40th of 48 starters.

Somewhere in the hall closet there's a 35mm color slide or two...one of these days I've gotta dig those out and dust 'em off. Hard to believe he's been gone 40 years now.

[Bjorn Kjer]

In Road & Track August 1960 was a 4 pages + article on Camoradi Casner. I seem to have lost the "+" (continued at page 85) side/sides. Can anyone please supply the missing ?

Regards Bjørn Kjer

[Bjorn Kjer]

Has anyone got any knowledge on how Camoradi got their F1 cars to the tracks?
Regards Bjørn Kjer

[JB Miltonian]

Bjorn, I'll send you the missing page from the R&T article.

[PonysiteEd]

If there happens to be anything about Lucky Casners Shelby relation or activities or a friend in Berlin/Germany, pls. let me know.
I'm still researching this car driven by the Huth family.
Huth Shelby imported by Casner

[Jerry Entin]

Lucky Casner and long-time Camoradi driver Masten Gregory at the Nurburgring in 1961. Photo lent to site by Willem Oosthoek

[Bjorn Kjer]

I would love to have the Birdcage article, anyone willing to send a copy of the mag ? Not available here and never seen in any way , will pay!
Regards Bjørn Kjer

[Jerry Entin]

Thinking BIG even then! At New Smyrna Beach in February 1957, used Cadillac dealer Lucky Casner entered two MGA's prepared by Lee Lilley. Three years later the name Casner Motors Racing Division would be known worldwide. Photo lent site by Willem Oosthoek.

[Barrie Hobkirk]

Hi Bjørn,

This is how Camoradi got their F1 car to the track.

http://www.coldplugs...rock_park01.htm

See 250F picture under "The Race" heading.

Cheers,
Barrie

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hello Barrie, I was in fact thinking of F1 in Europe why didnt I write that?), but this site I never found , great , thanks Barrie , many other good pics from that time too.!

Kind regards Bjørn Kjer

[Bjorn Kjer]

And thanks to Jerry for those great pics!

To anyone of interest I would like to sum up the Lucky/Camoradi material :

Article R&T 1960 by Bob Morrison
Article Autosport 1990 by ?
Article Sports Car Int. 1992 by Joe Scalzo
Article Vintage MS 2006 by W.Oosthoek

Besides the Birdcages books by Joel Finn and Willem Oosthoek there is Michel Bollees "Lucky" (in french but lots of pics)

The film "Pit Pass" 1960

Other books with Maserati themes as well as race reports the Internet with Maserati sites AND the TNF.

And it still comes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bjorn Kjer]

I have been asked to correct my list above:The Vintage MS article is 2005, (not 2006)and the date is Jul/Aug issue, the the 60 article is Aug ,the 90 is Dec 20/27 and the 92 is Sept. , sorry!

Further I would like to add that having read the newest article by OOSTHOEK , I must say he has dug some new infos out ,and written a more in depth article than "just" race reports; and putting some of the other stuff between, you have I think a very "complete" story of LUCKY and his team.

I do have the Bollee book "LUCKY" but not speaking french I have to be content with the lots of great pictures and the english captions.

Regards Bjørn Kjer

[Jerry Entin]

There are two more articles to be found on Lucky Casner. Today's Motor Sports, April of 1961 Camorad-One year Later by Charles Wick and another is Autoweek March 14, 1994, Lucky's Charm by Pete Lyons. I am going to try and put the Todays Motor Sport Article up here now.

[Jerry Entin]

Here is the article by Charles Wick.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 28 April 2021 - 18:19.

[Jerry Entin]

LeMans, June 1960. Ruining his expensive Italian Loafers in the Torrential rain, Maserati's chief mechanic Guerrino Bertocchi tries to get his point across with Lucky Casner. Casner's co-driver in the Birdcage was Jim Jeffords, with Ian Burgess in reserve. Photo lent to site by Willem Oosthoek

[Lotus11Register]

This would have been a triumph of sorts for CAMORADI, but rules are rules. This is the Lee Lilley / Fred Gamble Corvette on its way to finishing 10th overall at LeMans, 1960. The car was full of GM parts developed for NASCAR and ran without a hitch. One problem in practice was Lilley spinning at Indianapolis when he followed Taruffi's advice and held too high a gear. Later it was explained to Lee that Taruffi's experience had come in a much slower car. At least that was the story.

The rules that kept this pair out of the recordbooks? Depending on who remembers it: Lilley had driven the car for too many hours; the car hadn't completed enough laps for its engine size; or it hadn't spent enough time qualifying. But after the race they were disqualified.

Lloyd Casner deserves more credit than he gets for making such an impact in the world sports car scene. His team was the last big hurrah that Maserati had in sports car racing, and was the team that brought Goodyear into international racing. Both Lee Lilley and Fred Gamble were real gentlemen, talented, hard-working men who with so many others were drawn to Casner's big ideas.

[Jerry Entin]

Here is Lee Lilley in the ex Fangio Maserati 250F after Lucky Casner bought it for the Team. Photo lent to site by Jay Sloane

[Jerry Entin]

Lucky Casner's son Perry Casner, at home in Charlotte, NC.

[Jerry Entin]

Lucky Casner's favorite photo of himself. Taking the Karussell at the Nurburgring. The image was often used to answer fan mail. Casner won the 1000KM in 1961 with Masten Gregory, but this photo was taken during practice. What happened to the roll bar on the Birdcage?
photo lent to site by Willem Oosthoek.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Great picture , I cannot remember having seen it ever, , interesting point with the roll bar , and notice too ,the small distance between the track(cement) and exhaust pipes,its really hard driven here.....

[Tmeranda]

I would say the roll bar is still there, but hidden behind the drivers helmet because of the angle of the photo. It was a very narrow roll bar.

[Jerry Entin]

Based on this photo showing the same Tipo 61 chassis # 2472 with Casner's co-driver Masten Gregory on his way to victory in the 1000KM Race. I would say it was unlikely that the rollbar was hidden in the previous picture.
photo lent site Willem Oosthoek

[PonysiteEd]

Excert found at an exhibition in Geneva, no copyright mentioned at least.

[Jerry Entin]

Camoradi Corvette in the day.

Team station Wagon seen at Nurburgring in 1960. He ran a Corvette but used a Ford station Wagon for the Team personnel.
photos found for site by Michel Bollee.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Great pictures ,and on the last one from Nurburgring ,just above thewindscreen in the background can be seen Team Elites Bedford transporter with the 4 wheel trailer on the car.

[Loren Lundberg]

Originally posted by Lotus11Register


This would have been a triumph of sorts for CAMORADI, but rules are rules. This is the Lee Lilley / Fred Gamble Corvette on its way to finishing 10th overall at LeMans, 1960. The car was full of GM parts developed for NASCAR and ran without a hitch. One problem in practice was Lilley spinning at Indianapolis when he followed Taruffi's advice and held too high a gear. Later it was explained to Lee that Taruffi's experience had come in a much slower car. At least that was the story.

The rules that kept this pair out of the recordbooks? Depending on who remembers it: Lilley had driven the car for too many hours; the car hadn't completed enough laps for its engine size; or it hadn't spent enough time qualifying. But after the race they were disqualified.

Lloyd Casner deserves more credit than he gets for making such an impact in the world sports car scene. His team was the last big hurrah that Maserati had in sports car racing, and was the team that brought Goodyear into international racing. Both Lee Lilley and Fred Gamble were real gentlemen, talented, hard-working men who with so many others were drawn to Casner's big ideas.

The three Cunningham cars received significant modifications via GM Engineering - to the extent that they all raced with different motors than they had been built with. When they returned to Momo's garage in the US, the three race motors were removed and returned to Chevrolet for evaluation. Rumor has it that when the original motors would put back in, two of them got switched....long before "numbers matching".
The Camoradi Corvette was almost embarassingly stock. It was a "PR" presence, as Casner and everyone else knew that if they were to "win", it would be via the Birdcages. Perhaps due to the association with the lightweight 'Cages, the car did get lighter - 150 lbs lighter than the Cunningham cars according to Karl Ludsvigen.
The front and rear motor mounts, the quick steering adapter, the clutch/brake pedal assembly, the frame
crossmembers have all been DRILLED with holes of varying sizes - the ones in the "X" are 2" in diameter.
The French created the Index of Performance standard so as to possibly have something to point at for the generally speaking smaller engined French cars. The formula in place in 1960 was: cylinder capacity (cc's) minus
125; this number was then DIVIDED by cylinder capacity (cc's) PLUS 150. The Index for the 4637cc Corvettes thus
resulted in 3770.2 kilometers. Cunningham #3 did 3782; Camoradi di 3713. The winner of the "Index of Performance" in 1960 was a 702 cc D.B. Panhard.
There was also another "Index"; that of "Thermal Efficiency", won by a Lotus Elite.
But no one ever ignored the "overall" finish results.
Hope this helps.

[Jerry Entin]

Here are two members of the Team Camoradi- Bob Wallace and Fred Gamble
photo lent site Dave Kane

[Loren Lundberg]

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
Has anyone got any knowledge on how Camoradi got their F1 cars to the tracks?
Regards Bjørn Kjer

I'm unaware of how the F1 cars were moved, but I know of a picture of a truck with two birdcages on it - one on "2nd story" metal floor above the top of the truck's cab. I thought I had it here, but a quick look didn't bring it to hand.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Hi Loren , good info on the Vette!
As to transporters , Camoradi had their own in the US , a Chevy (bonneted) with a big semitrailer. In Europe they had no team transporters , but lend or rented some. Apart from the Ford Station wagon for personnel , I have seen the one I believe you mean. Its a Bianchi medium truck with open 2 stage build up for 3 cars. Dark red it was with no names on ,seen first time at Monza 1959 (not Camoradi). They used it at least for 60 & 61 at Nurburgring and Le Mans. Sometimes the T61 were nose to tail or nose to nose,but at LM61 they HAD to do it nose to nose as they were so long with the LM tails. Also at 61 Nurburg the T63 was on an open small trailer behind a Jaguar Mk.2 , on the way to be returned to the factory (propably not even tried out here ,having more or less ran out of money). At LM61 their Vette was driven to the race , raced , and driven back !

[Bjorn Kjer]

A friend of mine asked me today if I know anything about Casner buying a Jaguar E type from Peter Lindner in 1961-64? I do not know , but facts or hints would be welcome , but it is not a racing jaguar , rather a privat car .

[Jack-the-Lad]

So many lost images.....what a shame.

[Spitfire]

http://www.racinghis...ress/061061.pdf

 

His greatest win, as mentioned. 

[pete53]

Lucky Casner in what may have been his only race in England? Guards Trophy 1963 at Brands . His race lasted less than 5 laps.

 

[Rupertlt1]

Looking for more on the Lloyd 'Lucky' Casner Lotus XI, which appeared at least twice in 1958:

Gainesville, Georgia, 8 June 1958.

Venice Six Hours, Sam Collier Memorial, near Sarasota, Florida, 11-12 October 1958.

 

See: https://forums.autos...dpost&p=4868351

 

Also: https://forums.autos...-3#entry9025050

 

Ref James 'Jim' Hunt Jr:

https://forums.autos...-4#entry9415452

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 04 April 2023 - 06:57.

[timisles]

This is a foot note to add a small amount to this informative thread on Lloyd ‘Lucky’ Casner. It’s a focus on the days before his CAMORADI venture, and hopefully others may be able to add more.

My own particular interest in this early pre-CAMORADI period is due to the fact I have been involved in restoring Ace-Bristol BEX 310, a car Lucky bought new, and which was one of the cars in his stable when he started out. It set me wondering where the other cars from his early days might be.

For those looking to research Lloyd Casner’s global racing exploits, the excellent 11 page article published in the July/August 2005 edition of Vintage Motorsport has already been mentioned in this thread. Additionally, the French published book ‘CAMORADI’ adds much to the story too. Lucky was certainly a character.

Informative as they are, neither document goes into much detail about Lucky’s first days behind the wheel on a race track, nor the small stable of cars he used. We have Willem Oosthoek’s excellent first volume of ‘Sports Car Racing in the South’ to thank for adding a number of details of Lucky’s early exploits, together with several photographs.

I should also thank Rupert Lloyd Thomas too. He assisted me greatly by sharing the many press cuttings from the sports pages of the Florida tabloids from this time. These articles helped out in a big way with the detailed time lines, and revealed a good deal of discussion and gossip about what was happening on the racing scene in the south east at the time.

Furthermore, these cuttings gave detail regarding the various cars in the early days of the Casner/Hunt ‘equipe’, as well as mentioning a number of other characters who raced and/or maintained the cars.

It seems Lucky first took to the race track in an MGA in 1956. By 1957 this car had been joined by an Alfa Giulietta. Later in the year Lucky took delivery of a new Ace-Bristol. This car was shipped from the AC factory in Thames Ditton on 28 May 1957. It would have been specially ordered by him because his name appears in the factory dispatch book - had it been ‘showroom stock’ it was usual for only the name of the dealer to be recorded.

Whatever, Lucky entered his Ace for its first race, this at Fort Pierce, Fla, on 28 and 29 September 1957. He obviously got on well with the car, for he is recorded as having been 1^st in EP on both race days. He was back at Fort Pierce for the 16/17 November meeting, this time getting achieving a third place.

Continuing the momentum, Lucky and his Ace were among 12 Floridians listed to partake (Miami News) in the Nassau Speed Week in December 1957. However, I cannot find any information to suggest he did take part. Can anyone add to this?

For 1958, Casner was listed to drive the Ace at the Orange Bowl Races on 11/12 January. He did attend, but was driving a ‘VW Special’, with little success. No mention of why he was not driving the Ace.

Contemporary reports suggest Lucky had now been joined by Jim Hunt and Dr David Lane, making for a team that shared the cars. In February David Lane entered the novice race in an Ace at New Smyrna Beach and came third. He also entered the main event and came 16^th OA. As a sign of things to come Lucky raced a Ferrari Testa Rossa in this event. He was moving rapidly through the experience boundaries.

In March David Lane entered Lucky’s Ace and the Alfa in the annual Baton Rouge races. Lucky drove the Ferrari again.
For Sebring, run on 22 March, Casner, together with Bill Jorden and Frank Campbell were entered in an Ace, but DNS. Both Jorden and Campbell owned Aces, so just whose car was to be used is not known.

In April, the FL News ran an article with a picture of Jim Hunt sitting in an Ace that he had bought from Lucky, who had ‘raced it so ably’. Hunt went on to race the Ace throughout 1958, ending the season at the Nassau Speed Week. However, there were various mentions of both Hunt and Casner entered in the Ace throughout the season, so it seems it remained a part of the stable, to be used by the pair of them.

On 07 June ’58, an article in the FL News stated that Hunt (Ace) Packo (Lotus 11) Casner (Ferrari and Lotus 11) were forming a team to contest most of the races at Gainesville, 7/8 Jun. So a Lotus 11 joins the team. No mention of the Alfa now, which seems to have dropped from sight.

28 Jun. FL News article reports Hunt, Casner and Packo have formed the International Competition Driver’s Club (ICDC) and have a Testa Rossa, an AC Ace and 2 x Lotus 11s in their stable.

By 1959 the focus has moved to the Italian exotica. FL News 17 Jan article states Casner/Hunt have bought a ‘2 Litre Ferrari’ to go with a Testa Rossa and an Ace-Bristol.

Miami News 14 Feb. ‘Races at Boca Raton to be Sebring test. Casner and Hunt expected to be there in Ferraris. Lee Lilley expected to be driving an Ace-Bristol.’ (Casner’s/Hunt’s?)

FL News 14 Feb. ‘Racing a Ferrari together at Sebring’. Big article with photos of Hunt and Casner with families. The Ace slips from view, and Lucky went on to much bigger things.

I attach a couple of photographs showing the car restored in the colours Lloyd Casner used. It was white in colour when it left the AC factory in Thames Ditton, the light blue and dark blue stripes being added by Lucky when he went racing.

So there we are. An MGA, an Alfa, an Ace and possibly two Lotus X1s in the stable in the early days. Apart from the Ace, I wonder if any of the others still survive?

Edited by timisles, 27 July 2024 - 15:49.

[Tim Murray]

(posted on behalf of Willem Oosthoek; his words follow)

I can't help with any of Lucky's earlier competition cars, but here is a picture of his early CAMORADI transporter and the red 3-liter Testa Rossa he shared with Jim Hunt at Cocoa-Titusvile in February 1959. In between, Dutch racer Jan de Vroom is having a smoke in his personal transportation.

Photo by Bob Bellows [Willem Oosthoek Collection].

[WINO]

There are a good number of photos of Lucky's CAMORADI team [both cars and drivers] in this week's edition of the website VeloceToday.com, with more to come starting on Tuesday. They all center around the 1960 Sebring 12 Hours. Tomorrow's segment will be free of charge for the first week.

Edited by WINO, 22 July 2024 - 12:23.

[Tim Murray]

(posted on behalf of Willem Oosthoek; the following words are his)

Two rare photos taken before the August 1960 Grand Prix of Sweden at Karlskoga. Joakim Bonnier [in raincoat] would race the long-tail CAMORADI Tipo 61 [chassis 2461], while Lucky Casner drove the team's remaining Corvette [the other one caught fire after Sebring]. With them is mechanic Bob Wallace. To improve visibility, the wrap-around windshield would be removed before the race, to be replaced by a flat piece of plexiglass. After leading for 17 laps, Bonnier finished second overall behind Stirling Moss in the first race appearance for a Lotus 19. It was also the first race for Moss after his crash in the Belgian Grand Prix at Francorchamps. Lucky won the GT class.

Images from a Swedish newspaper website, discovered by Jean-Francois Blachette some years ago.

[Tim Murray]

(posted on behalf of Willem Oosthoek; the following words are his)

Lucky Casner was known for his excellent Le Mans starts. Seen here at Karlskoga with his Corvette, which Casner ran as a convertible, he was obviously the fastest in the footrace, with a speedier getaway than the other LM start specialist, Stirling Mos, who headed the field in his Lotus 19. But perhaps Moss was still recuperating from his crash at Francorchamps.