151 replies to this topic

[Lateralus42]

No punches pulled....its about time.



http://www.speedtv.c...&cat=20&id=2236



By: David Phillips

Toronto, Ontario, July 6

We sat down with Barry Green at the Toronto Molson Indy today to discuss his reaction to IRL president Tony George’s ruling in his appeal of
the Indy 500 and speculation this may affect his decision about Team Green’s future.

Q: You’ve had a chance to digest the decision by IRL President Tony George to deny your appeal of the results of the 2002 Indianapolis 500. It’s been said that you invested upward of $100,000 in preparing that appeal. Given that he (George) ruled the outcome of the race hinged on a judgment call that was not subject to appeal, do you feel you wasted your time and money?

BG: I don’t really care so much about how much money I spent (although) I did spend a lot of money. I spent a lot of time. I wasted a lot of my own time. I say I wasted but I don’t believe I wasted my time. I had to take my case . . . I had to appeal my case.

If you read the rule book, you can protest or appeal, (that’s) one sentence. The IRL accepted my protest, denied my protest but on the bottom of the official letter they gave me, signed by the chief steward, the very last sentence is, “This is an appealable situation.”

So, they accepted my protest. They told me I could appeal. I appealed;
they accepted my appeal. And now they’ve come back with some stupid answer that it’s unappealable, which means it’s unprotestable, the way I read the rule book.

The problem here is, in my opinion, is that . . . they, all have seen my
presentation and my evidence and it is so, so clear that Paul Tracy won that
race (that) they had to come up with some . . . pathetic answer like they did to disallow the win.

I’m sorry, but it’s a sad, sad day for open wheel motor racing. It’s a situation where, in my opinion, the IRL does not understand, or Tony George, does not understand their rule book. They’re trying to change the rules, they’re trying to change their rule book, after the game . . . after the
event. And I just do not believe that’s right.

Q: Now what? Are you considering pursuing the matter in civil court?

BG: I am so saddened by how this thing has been handled, that I’m sick of it. Does that mean I’ll go away? I don’t know. I told my attorneys who all wanted to have an immediate meeting and talk about this, to meet among themselves and get back to me.

In the meantime, I’m at Toronto, I want to enjoy Toronto, I want to focus
on doing well here. We have done well here in the past, and that’s what we want to focus on.

I honestly don’t know what my options are, as of today. All I can say is
that, man, there must be a lot of sponsors and teams that are involved in the IRL that are wondering, "‘What sort of organization are we involved with...?"

I’ve said to other people that have interviewed me that it’s actually a
bad day to comment about it, because I am very, very disappointed and very upset over it because, as I’ve said, I’m saddened because I think it affects all of us.

Q: There’s been a lot of speculation that Team Green and KOOL may opt to run in the IRL next year. One would imagine the events surrounding the Indy 500, your protest and appeal might discourage you and KOOL from pursuing that option, would it not?

BG: There are a lot of rumors out there about what I’m doing, about what my partners are doing and this year is no different from any other year. This is the time when a lot of our options come up, our contracts and it can be a tough time for me. There’s a lot of work to do right now, finalizing our deals for next year.

But I’ve said in the past, many, many times, that every year I have done
a budget for IRL racing, and I owe that to my company. My company is in the business of motor racing. If we come up with a sponsor that wants to go Formula 1 or even drag racing, I’m going Formula 1 or drag racing,
provided we’ve got the sponsor and the money.

Having said that, I have done a budget for IRL for many years; I have
talked about doing the IRL for many years. To this day, all my sponsors have supported CART. So, to this day, my direction at the moment is where I’m at now: in CART.

I can tell you . . . this has got to concern not only my sponsors but any
sponsors considering the IRL. Who are they playing with? Are they racing
against everyone fairly, or is someone other than the IRL pulling the
strings? I’ve got to question that.

[shaggy]

"... is someone other than the IRL pulling the strings? I’ve got to question that"

I think that means "Penske."
As Robin Miller stated before, there was NO WAY that TG would take the victory away from Penske and give it to a CART team. He wouldn't give it to another IRL team, why would he give it to a CART team ?

Well, TG now has Penske, Honda and Toyota. As the people at Cosworth stated last week, it was the entrance of Honda and Toyota that blew the cost of CART over the roof. Even Rahal stated that running a CART team for one driver is now probably less expensive in CART than in the IRL.

Oh well, at least I did not watch that race.

shaggy

[Turn13]

If you read the rule book, you can protest or appeal, (that’s) one sentence. The IRL accepted my protest, denied my protest but on the bottom of the official letter they gave me, signed by the chief steward, the very last sentence is, “This is an appealable situation.”

So, they accepted my protest. They told me I could appeal. I appealed;
they accepted my appeal. And now they’ve come back with some stupid answer that it’s unappealable, which means it’s unprotestable, the way I read the rule book.

I think the idea is, it's appealable if you have a point or evidence to introduce that changes the complexion of the issue from the judgment call to a facts issue; something more than what Barry had. Race Control can apparently reverse a decision based on new facts - this may have been the case at a Texas race last year between Giaffone and Hornish. As I understand it, Barry's team introduced no new evidence to controvert the existing evidence and the new evidence from Penske, so the judgment call stands.

A person with good insight on this topic said this:

"The reason TG couldn't have said this couldn't be appealed last month is simple. TKG wrote in their argument that they believed that this didn't fall under the rule of a judgement call, because they believed that the pass was made before the yellow came out, and therefore didn't fall under the rule about 'car placement under yellow'. "

The problem here is, in my opinion, is that . . . they, all have seen my
presentation and my evidence and it is so, so clear that Paul Tracy won that
race (that) they had to come up with some . . . pathetic answer like they did to disallow the win.

I've read the report. There are 6 good reasons to say Helio won, and one shaky point about a yellow light that may or may not have come on late to make PT the winner. Barry even admitted or agreed to the validity of the evidence presented at the time.

It's not like the conclusion of the report was "Yeah, Barry, you're right but we can't change it". The conclusion of the report was that the evidence supports the judgment call. therefore the judgment call stands. And it wasn't even very close- I mean, while yes the pass was close, the many points that nail down who was leading when the yellow occurred are pretty clear.

I’m sorry, but it’s a sad, sad day for open wheel motor racing.

Indeed! But I think the sadness is in not accepting that the yellow dash lights, and even the call for a yellow on Race Control radio, are legitimately the start of the yellow caution period. It makes sense, it's pro-safety, and it is in the rulebook. It starts to look like he's not a good sportsman, but that's just where his perspective leaves him.

I do appreciate, however, the points he makes about the necessities of business and the responsibility for 80 employees. I hope he gets over this, and comes back even stronger.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Turn13

I've read the report. There are 6 good reasons to say Helio won,

Care to enlighten us on these 6 reasons? I've only seen the TV replay on ESPN which suggested to me Tracy won, so any differing evidence you have seen may change my mind!

[Megatron]

Careful, some of these lemmings have connections to Tony George and had dinner with him once...

George went against his own rule book, ignored telemetry evidence, and after stumbling and bumbling through a press conference, awarded the victory to Helio.

Hes your leader, I am sure you are so proud of what he has made of the Indy 500. The last thing the Indy 500 needs now is bad press like this. An "unappealable" appeal and a winner that is, at least, cast in doubt.

I said before that, at best, the IRL could come out of this with people questioning their "judgement calls", their scoring and timing system in need of serious overhaul, and a better understanding of when the dash lights and track lights take place. At worst, and thats going to be many, it will be seen as a fixed show, the wrong driver winning, the making up of rules as they go along, and a leadership and steward foundation that is flawed drastically.

[Turn13]

Well, I've never had dinner with George

For se7en_24, from the report:

Following the Race, the IRL determined that Car #3 was ahead of Car #26 at the following
times, and no evidence was presented by Team Green or Penske Racing to the contrary:
(a) At the time of the accident involving Car #34 and Car #91;
(b) At the time Race Control called the yellow caution period by radio;
© At the time the red flag with the yellow cross was displayed;
(d) At the time the yellow dashboard light system was activated;
(e) At the last scoring time line before the yellow caution period commenced; and
(f) At the time the yellow dashboard light radio on Car #3 received the yellow light signal.
The telemetry data on Car #3, when synchronized with the Race videos and IRL timing and scoring data, showed that the dashboard yellow light radio on Car #3 received the yellow light signal when Car #3 was in front of Car #26. The IRL obtained this telemetry data directly from Penske Racing, and it also matched up with the other telemetry data downloaded directly by
the IRL from Car #3 following the Race. The analysis was performed by Jeff Horton ("Horton"), the IRL Director of Engineering, a highly experienced electronics engineer. Car #26 did not have data acquisition software installed on the Car to record the receipt of the yellow caution radio
signal. The videos of the Race can be interpreted as showing the track yellow lights coming on when Car #26 was outside Car #3 on the third turn. At that moment, Car #26 appears ahead of Car #3 by approximately four to six feet based on an imaginary start/finish line5 across the race
track in turn three, but at that same moment Car #3 would be ahead of Car #26 by approximately ten to twelve feet based on the distance of the Cars to the actual start/finish line. The videos of
the Race also show the display of the red flag with the yellow cross in the entrance to the pits when Car #3 was well ahead of Car #26.

People get confused over what constitutes the start of the caution. Basically, all the signals happen within seconds, but you should respond to the first one you see for safety's sake. The judgment call of the placement of the cars is also made as soon as possible, and logically precedes perhaps by a second or two the display of the yellow lights and is nearly simultaneous with the call of the yellow track condition by Race Control.

Note that Barry Green admits that Helio was in the lead when the call was made and when the in-dash light comes on in Helio's telemetry. Green's argument, basically, was that everything BUT the single track light in the (rather inconclusive) video should be ignored.

It's all covered in the rules, in a fairly straightforward and logical manner, and all based on providing the swiftest, safest response to a hazardous situation. The rules refer to both the yeloow light system, including in-dash and on-track, the flags, and the radio call as well. The procedure is also covered explicitly in the pre-race drivers' meeting which is also covered in the rules.

[Lateralus42]

Turn13, even your spin and 'explanation' makes no sense. Tony George and the IRL got away with stealing that race, only a blind person would not be able to see that.

[TheD2JBug]

Originally posted by Lateralus42
Turn13, even your spin and 'explanation' makes no sense. Tony George and the IRL got away with stealing that race, only a blind person would not be able to see that.

why because YOU don't agree with it .. ... I don't like it too much either .. but if what they say is true and there were signals out before PT passed the lucky SOB HCN then let it be ...

one thing for sure HCN was owned by PT in those closing laps .. jumping on some fence cause you were gifted a race was soo lame .. celerbrate that win there HCN

[BARnone]

One thing I think that people are missing here - Barry Green is a very honourable guy. He said from the get go he wouldn't protest unless he thought Tracy had really won the race. Tony George, for all his rhetoric, isn't an honourable guy. In my mind and from what I saw that day Tracy was robbed - pure and simple.

BARnone.

[JForce]

Here's the thing. I know a little about CART, and a reasonable amount about racing, as do we all (well, most of us).

So all i know is that, based on the evidence I have seen...eg the report T13 posts above, without reading his "spin", or interpretation, I conclude that the IRL made the right decision.

Ok, lets try this.

I am impartial, right? Im a Kiwi. Its not rugby, or F1, so I really don't give ****. i follow Scott Dixon in CART, but the IRL races I watch whilst Im at the gym (its the only thing on sometimes) aren't as much fun.

So convince me.

If you're a HCN fan, show me why he won.

If you think PT won, prove it.

I am genuinely interested. ive seen no videos, nothing....we don't care much for these Indy-dinkum races in my parts.

So come on, as an excercise for Atlas, show me!

[Buford]

The point is, Tracy passed HCN on the outside and was ahead when the yellow light came on, on the fence. That is shown conclusively via video and telemetry. IMS first said, well Tracy was behind when the crash happened. But that is irrelevant. Then they said, well Tracy was behind at the last timing line embedded in the track. But that is irrelevant. Then they said, well the lights came on in the cars before the lights on the fence. But that is proven not true because there is a video from Al Unser Jrs car showing his light came on AFTER the one on the fence.

So finally after their first three previous attempts to jury rig the results were proven irrelevant to their own rule book, or totally untrue, and that Tracy actually did have him passed on the track before the yellow light came on, they finally came up with the 4th different excuse. That the original spur of the moment call cannot be appealed, even though they said it could.

So what they are now saying is even if they make a mistake, it cannot be appealed. So if there was a photo finish (as they have had at Daytona), and they originally call car A the winner but then evidence in the photo or timing shows car B got to the line first, car A still wins anyway because their original mistake is not appealable. Good deal eh?

[Newtsche]

Originally posted by BARnone
One thing I think that people are missing here - Barry Green is a very honourable guy. He said from the get go he wouldn't protest unless he thought Tracy had really won the race. Tony George, for all his rhetoric, isn't an honourable guy. In my mind and from what I saw that day Tracy was robbed - pure and simple.

BARnone.

The 500 results have been thouroughly discussed, BARnone's simple point is quite true and should not be underestimated. If the facts of HCN's win are argueable, the character of these two men --Green and George -- is much less so... even if all other things were equal, I have no problems saying Tracy won just based on the man pleading his case.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Buford
The point is, Tracy passed HCN on the outside and was ahead when the yellow light came on, on the fence. That is shown conclusively via video and telemetry. IMS first said, well Tracy was behind when the crash happened. But that is irrelevant. Then they said, well Tracy was behind at the last timing line embedded in the track. But that is irrelevant. Then they said, well the lights came on in the cars before the lights on the fence. But that is proven not true because there is a video from Al Unser Jrs car showing his light came on AFTER the one on the fence.

So finally after their first three previous attempts to jury rig the results were proven irrelevant to their own rule book, or totally untrue, and that Tracy actually did have him passed on the track before the yellow light came on, they finally came up with the 4th different excuse. That the original spur of the moment call cannot be appealed, even though they said it could.

So what they are now saying is even if they make a mistake, it cannot be appealed. So if there was a photo finish (as they have had at Daytona), and they originally call car A the winner but then evidence in the photo or timing shows car B got to the line first, car A still wins anyway because their original mistake is not appealable. Good deal eh?

From what Ive heard, the IRL/Indy500 rule book is long on semantics and short on specifics.

From a purely evidential point of view, regardless of "He said this but was wrong so said this", which is entirely valid and of course makes TG look like an asshole, is irrelevant next to the rulebook. Or lack thereof

[RiverRunner]

J,the irl rulebook says racing is stopped upon the showing of the yellow flag or yellow tracklights.
Nothing about a call on the radio.
Nothing about dash lights.
Now all of a sudden these are "supplemental rules"
Oh,really?
Rules that are not in the book are suddenly the rules that the race is run by.
Sounds like something a kid would say,Neener neener neener I used the secret password that made me immune from getting tagged "it"
And anyway if these rules are so important,race winners are judged by them after all,then why are they supplemental at all?They have been in use for years now according to TG,but they never bothered to write them down?
My goodness.

It was shown conclusively,from many camera angles, that when the yellow lights on the track went on,(the racers were not in view of the flagstand) that Tracy was ahead by about 6-10 feet.

Now is when it gets realllllly silly.
After all the hub bub over who was where when,the irl comes out and says,"Oh,by the way,we told you after the race you could appeal,but we've changed our minds over the last three weeks and decided you never had the right to appeal to begin with"
Huh?
Team Green just spent a load of dough on Power Point presentations,lawyers,gathering video data and synchronizing it,dragging Paul Tracy and the whole team through a **** storm for three weeks and then has the gall to tell them,well,ermmmmm,yes it does show you are in front but on the other hand it's a judgement call by the Race Stewart (who just happens to be a former Penske employee) and judgement calls are not able to be appealed.

I seriously hope that Honda and Toyota who have decided to join the irl have a firm grasp on those nebulous "supplemental" rules before they rear up and bite them on the ass outta thin air,cuz it will happen,have no doubt about it all.

Just for fun and games they went and did it again today in the irl,they failed to notify the leader he was about to get the green flag after an extended yellow late in the race,and when it came out he was lolly gagging arounf in third gear and got caught out big time and passed for the win by a driver that was 4 cars back.
As you can imagine,the owner and driver were rather pissed by the incompetence of the race stewart to notify the cars he was about to drop the green.

[Buford]

And don't forget the time at the IRL 500 they gave the green at the start line for the big race to the finish but forgot to turn on the green lights around the track!!! Arie Luyendyk said on his radio as he was racing for the lead and he had seen the green wave but the yellow lights were still on "What the **** are they doing?" So they raced on anyway despite the yellow lights, and that was OK. Tony George and his lackies are the biggest disaster to hit this sport in history. What a shame it has fallen to this level.

[JForce]

Originally posted by RiverRunner
J,the irl rulebook says racing is stopped upon the showing of the yellow flag or yellow tracklights.
Nothing about a call on the radio.
Nothing about dash lights.
Now all of a sudden these are "supplemental rules"
Oh,really?
Rules that are not in the book are suddenly the rules that the race is run by.
Sounds like something a kid would say,Neener neener neener I used the secret password that made me immune from getting tagged "it"
And anyway if these rules are so important,race winners are judged by them after all,then why are they supplemental at all?They have been in use for years now according to TG,but they never bothered to write them down?
My goodness.

It was shown conclusively,from many camera angles, that when the yellow lights on the track went on,(the racers were not in view of the flagstand) that Tracy was ahead by about 6-10 feet.

Now is when it gets realllllly silly.
After all the hub bub over who was where when,the irl comes out and says,"Oh,by the way,we told you after the race you could appeal,but we've changed our minds over the last three weeks and decided you never had the right to appeal to begin with"
Huh?
Team Green just spent a load of dough on Power Point presentations,lawyers,gathering video data and synchronizing it,dragging Paul Tracy and the whole team through a **** storm for three weeks and then has the gall to tell them,well,ermmmmm,yes it does show you are in front but on the other hand it's a judgement call by the Race Stewart (who just happens to be a former Penske employee) and judgement calls are not able to be appealed.

I seriously hope that Honda and Toyota who have decided to join the irl have a firm grasp on those nebulous "supplemental" rules before they rear up and bite them on the ass outta thin air,cuz it will happen,have no doubt about it all.

Just for fun and games they went and did it again today in the irl,they failed to notify the leader he was about to get the green flag after an extended yellow late in the race,and when it came out he was lolly gagging arounf in third gear and got caught out big time and passed for the win by a driver that was 4 cars back.
As you can imagine,the owner and driver were rather pissed by the incompetence of the race stewart to notify the cars he was about to drop the green.

See, that makes sense. If the Rulebook says "Tracklights/flags", but they are basing it on "supplemental" rules, then I hope PT and team go to court.

I have no real vested interest in American Open wheel racing. I guess in a way I'd like it to fold, so my beloved F1 stays #1. But of course the stronger an American OW series is, the stronger the interest is in OW racing. And thats great. Plus, these teams want to race...they obviously love OW racing, so this destruction that the split has caused/is causing does no one any good.

I have no gripe with TG...he has done nothing to me, or any of the racing series I support. But on the face of it, it looks like he is wrong. For that reason, id like to see them go to court over this, to get a definative ruling.

It annoys me, you know. I think about the problems in F1, and there are plenty, but given the leadership of one man, BE, most things have been solved, and the series remains popular, stable, and mainly satisfying.
Then I think about CART/IRL. I'd love to get my hands on it. It could be great. The sponsor-base is huge, the sponsorship comanies enthusiatic, the teams on the whole, professional and love to race.....it has so much potential.
You know what Id love? Can anyone recommend a book that covers the pre-split, split, and post-split of Indycar racing? I'm less interested in the racing, and more interested in the politics behind it.

Man, thats a hell of a post about something I don't really care for I think ovals sucks

[Buford]

I don't think that book has been written yet, because there is no punch line yet. The story has not been completed. But while there has yet to be a punch line, the sport has suffered a body blow. His name is Tony George.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Buford
I don't think that book has been written yet, because there is no punch line yet. The story has not been completed. But while there has yet to be a punch line, the sport has suffered a body blow. His name is Tony George.

B, could you point me to any knowledgeable articles online, so that I may discover the details of something I know has pissed you off no-end...?

[Buford]

Well the Indianapolis Star used to have a section with the time line of what happened from the beginning and related articles, but I did not find it using the search just now on their site. I don't know where you could find a complete history now, short of a google search going back to various news articles over the years that may still be available.

[Megatron]

T13, I am not really sure what your expecting of the rest of the world.

The "evidence" you presented is ambigous at best. You blasted Barry Green on 7thgear for only presenting evidence that said Tracy won. What does anyone expect? Have you ever been to court? Ever seen a party present evidence to prosecut themselves?

You may think that TG is right and that everything he does is wonderful, that the world should set back and go along with whatever he wants just because he is who he is. Well, thats great, but others feel differently. You blasted CART for boycotting a race which virtually locked them out first by the 25/8 rule and then by equipment changes, you blasted Green for protesting a finish that, at the very least, casts a showdow of doubt upon the IRL's braintrust. You will realize one day that some folks have nerve enough to actually question a man whose's past is, shall we saw, shadowed, and just because he inherited the speedway, it doesn't make him allowable to control everything.

[Turn13]

First off, I don't "blast" anybody. I'm just stating the facts, and quoting the documents. That's not too ambiguous, is it? What is amiguous are many of the points I'm being challenged to argue against here.

It's true that the Green Team appeal asked for six points of solid evidence to be ignored, and one ambiguous piece to be the sole point for overturning the race results.

It is not true as RR states that the rules say "Nothing about a call on the radio.
Nothing about dash lights. Now all these are supplemental rules". These points are all addressed in the rules, and the Appeal Report references all the relevant citings. Furthermore, these are the rules and procedures which are always used in every IRL event, not "all of a sudden". The Green Appeal asks that this be changed, and a special case be applied, even though they are rules that Team Green agreed to and acknowledged, as I understand it.

From the report: "Team Green asserts that Car #26 was ahead of Car #3 at the time the track yellow lights came on, and that those lights should control. Team Green asserts that the radio call of the yellow caution period by Race Control and the display of the yellow dashboard lights are irrelevant." As the report shows, those points are indeed relevant and called for in the rules.

Jforce, the report is available at http://my.brickyard.com/500/ in PDF or HTML. And I'm not pissed off I hope I don't "sound" that way. I'm just interested in the "dry details" - what do the facst show, outside of the impassioned rhetoric?

Buford says, "The point is, Tracy passed HCN on the outside and was ahead when the yellow light came on, on the fence. That is shown conclusively via video and telemetry."

No, actually the telemetry supports Helio having the lead. The telemetry shows that Helio's in-dash light had come on and that he had lifted in response to it. There is a video which, while it may or may not seem to show a yellow light appearing as Tracy passed Helio, it does NOT show Tracy in the lead with a green light displayed. The video does plainly show, however, that the yellow pit flag is being displayed before PT completes the pass.

Buford also says, "IMS first said, well Tracy was behind when the crash happened. But that is irrelevant. Then they said, well Tracy was behind at the last timing line embedded in the track. But that is irrelevant. Then they said, well the lights came on in the cars before the lights on the fence. But that is proven not true because there is a video from Al Unser Jrs car showing his light came on AFTER the one on the fence."

That is a characterization which is not supported by the facts. Buford's "imaginary recreation" here also ignores the point that telemetry shows that Helio had the lead when his in-dash light came on, and the video of the pit flag display. What IMS did was look at and present all the facts as compiled during the hearing in their report. Each of the points was presented together in compiling a timeline of the events and the race Control's procedure along the way. While there may be several things happening within seconds, the report is very clear that the right call was made at the time, and that the subsequent investigation of the rules and the data supports that call.

I feel sorry for Paul - he struggled with speed leading up to the event, crashed during qualifications day, and then, although he never led a lap of the race, he no doubt had a chance to win it. I can appreciate the passion that both Paul Tracy and Barry Green brought to the event, but I think it's coloring their comments. It almost seems as if, having lost the race, and then lost the appeal, that they are now settling for a win in public opinion- but not by the full airing of the facts.

[Math Soucy]

Buford, I always enjoy your insights into North American open-wheel racing, and I really fear that CART may be damaged beyond repair. What is your objective, honest opinion or prediction for CART's destiny? Thanks.

[Toyoter]

I'm not really sure this is even about who won the race anymore. I think it's more about the strange way in which TG handled the situation. Had he either said from the start that the call could not be appealed or, following the appeal, given a conclusive reason why Helio is still to be considered the victor, I think Green would have accepted the situation. Calling the decision unappealable after listening to a long, drawn out appeal, however, is possibly the stupidest thing TG could have done. Normally I try to avoid knocking TG these days simply because he brought F1 to Indy (which is all I really care about anyway), but I have to say that the way he handled this whole business makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[RiverRunner]

Originally posted by Turn13


It is not true as RR states that the rules say "Nothing about a call on the radio.
Nothing about dash lights. Now all these are supplemental rules". These points are all addressed in the rules, and the Appeal Report references all the relevant citings. Furthermore, these are the rules and procedures which are always used in every IRL event, not "all of a sudden". The Green Appeal asks that this be changed, and a special case be applied, even though they are rules that Team Green agreed to and acknowledged, as I understand it.

Directly from the irl rulebook:

7.14 Yellow Flag (Caution) -The yellow caution period starts with the display of the yellow flag and/or yellow lights and ends with the display of the green flag and/or green lights. Racing ceases immediately upon display of the yellow flag and/or yellow light . The Officials may call a yellow caution period at any time for any reason. Their decision to call, not to call, or to end a yellow caution period may not be protested or appealed. Yellow caution period laps will be scored, unless stated otherwise by the Officials….During the yellow caution period, no Driver may pass another Car….

[Turn13]

You left this part out:

Rule 1.4(D). Race Control - IRL maintains a radio frequency to provide direct communication to the Entrants during on-track activities ("Race Control"). The information includes, but is not limited to, track conditions, yellow-flag (caution) procedure, and black-flag penalties…Each Entrant must have at least two (2) personnel monitor the frequency…Any Entrant failing to monitor the frequency shall be charged with knowledge of the matters discussed on such frequency, and is subject to penalty. Any Entrant or other Member failing to follow the directions of Race Control may be penalized.

Probably an honest mistake on your part.

(1) Driver Meetings - Prior to each Race, the IRL shall conduct one or more meetings of Drivers for the discussion and interpretation of these Rules and any specific Rules applying to that Race….

From the Handbook: Race Control Radio Frequency

The IRL requires that each Car have at least two (2) representatives who monitor the Race Control frequency (Rule 1.4(D), P.15). This must include each Car's spotter and a crew member who is located in the Entrant's assigned pit. The IRL will relay information via this channel directly to all Entrants through both group and individual instructions. The actual operations of the Event will take place over this frequency, as Race Control will be directing Entrants, pit tech officials, the pace car driver, and the Starter. . . Any Entrant or other Member who does not monitor the frequency will be held responsible for all matters discussed on such frequency, and is subject to penalty. Any Entrant failing to follow the directions of Race Control may be penalized.

Paul Tracy testified that he believed that he could ignore the yellow dashboard lights, although he admits to being told to react to them in the drivers meeting. Paul Tracy also testified that Team Green never notified him of the radio call of the yellow caution period by Race Control, even though he admits that he was told to react to the radio call by Race Control in that same drivers meeting. The crew chief for Car #26 also attended that meeting.

Team Green's argument that the track yellow lights should be the "determining fact" is misplaced for several reasons.

First, that argument is violative of the purpose and intent of the Rules. A yellow caution period is called due to unsafe track conditions. Team Green's position is that a driver could ignore Race Control's instructions,[3] whether given by radio or by activating the yellow dashboard lights, ignore the red flag with the yellow cross, ignore instructions given to the drivers during the Carburetion Day drivers meeting, and race under known dangerous conditions until the track yellow light is displayed.[4] That position is contrary to the terms and clear intent of the Rules.

Second, Team Green's argument is not technically sound. Rule 7.14 refers to "yellow lights." The dashboard lights are yellow lights, as are the track lights. Rule 7.14 does not refer only to "yellow track lights." In fact, Rule 1.5 expressly refers to both track yellow lights and dashboard yellow lights. Team Green contends that the on-board yellow light system, also known as the "track condition radio," is intended only to let drivers know when the pits are open. Team Green's contention is simply not supported by the clear language of the Rule Book, the clear intent of the Rule Book and the consistent interpretation of the Rule Book. That contention is also squarely inconsistent with the instructions given by the Officials at the drivers meeting and inconsistent with the general understanding of the competitors. Finally, that contention is simply not logical. Each light system is designed and employed for the exact same purpose, each light system can fail, and each light system backs up the other. The drivers and crew chiefs are specifically told to pay attention to both systems. There is no logical basis for ignoring one but not the other. It is also illogical to claim that a track condition radio doesn't relate to track conditions, but only to whether the pits are open.

[indycarjunkie]

Originally posted by JForce


I have no real vested interest in American Open wheel racing. I guess in a way I'd like it to fold, so my beloved F1 stays #1.

Man, thats a hell of a post about something I don't really care for I think ovals sucks

JForce,
I don't think you have anything to worry about US OW racing knocking F1 off of the top. Even if one or both series were to thrive like NASCAR they wouldn't bring F1 down. The Formula 1 product is unique and neither the IRL or CART could possibly duplicate it.

Midget ovals suck for the big cars (i.e. Richmond) but are OK for USAC sprint & silver crowns. Oval racing rocks!

Formula 1 is great too. Now if only Shumi would be made to work for a win ...

[RiverRunner]

I didn't leave anything out.
It's very clear from the rulebook when exactly racing on he track is considered stopped by the rules
The rest is the excuses for why the irl didn't adhere to the rules.

[917k]

It seems that Turn13 is the only one to actually read the 11 page report.The rest are relying on emotional response and opinion.

It sucks the way things transpired but just because you hate TG is no reason to ignore the facts.

[KenC]

Originally posted by Turn13

Indeed! But I think the sadness is in not accepting that the yellow dash lights, and even the call for a yellow on Race Control radio, are legitimately the start of the yellow caution period. It makes sense, it's pro-safety, and it is in the rulebook. It starts to look like he's not a good sportsman, but that's just where his perspective leaves him.

I had the impression that the yellow dash lights do not show up at the same time for all the drivers. Clearly, the problem is synchronizing all indications of yellow, including flags, lights, dash lights, radios, etc.

This was indeed an odd race, with some odd calls by race control. What was the deal with several cars getting into pitlane after the first crash? Shouldn't the pits close as soon as there is a caution? I distinctly recall seeing Sam Hornish's car pass the accident, and then I find, he's ducked into pitlane for service! That was weird. Another driver who entered pitlane, continued thru, so-as not to get a penalty. How did Sam and a couple other cars get into pitlane for service? I watched more closely later in the race, and noticed the pitboard guy was not particularly quick with the closed pit sign. Shouldn't this also be linked to the yellow caution period? Isn't it obvious that the pitlane is closed for service as soon as a caution period is called for, except for those already in pitlane, and for emergencies?

[Lateralus42]

There is nothing in the rule book about yellow dash lights, that is just something the IRL made up for its defense. Its pure crapola.

[stevew]

Originally posted by Buford
And don't forget the time at the IRL 500 they gave the green at the start line for the big race to the finish but forgot to turn on the green lights around the track!!! Arie Luyendyk said on his radio as he was racing for the lead and he had seen the green wave but the yellow lights were still on "What the **** are they doing?" So they raced on anyway despite the yellow lights, and that was OK. Tony George and his lackies are the biggest disaster to hit this sport in history. What a shame it has fallen to this level.

If I recall, Arie's "What the f..." question was picked up live on the ABC TV race coverage. On the local replay later that evening I heard "What the (bleep) are they doing"...

Classic.

[Manson]

Originally posted by stevew


If I recall, Arie's "What the f..." question was picked up live on the ABC TV race coverage. On the local replay later that evening I heard "What the (bleep) are they doing"...

Classic.

It's sad the only thing classic about the 500 these days are the screw ups.

[Megatron]

The evidence that T13 has presented could conclude that...the IRL SCORING SYSTEM IS TERRIBLE. Why have we never heard about this "dash light VS track light" before? The same reason that the IRL mandated the "three chassis manufacutrers" rule out of the blue to block anyone from actually trying to unify the sport with a common formula? What rules will be made up in the future to suit the Speedway?

The IRL should have known that such a stituation could arise. Discouraging a race back to the yellow, trying to "decide" who would be in front at any given point in the track, and figuring in the complex dash light VS track lights, it is a blunder waiting to present itself. Its just like their ridiculous yellow flag policy at Indy before a restart which made the IRL drivers look like they needed training wheels. They try so hard to control the race that they mess it up.

T13, you need to realize that when someone has such a shaddy history as TG, then their calls will be questioned. This is a PR nightmare for the IRL. And George only added fuel to the fire by his "unappealable appeal" after "considering" Team Green's appeal.

About the 1997 Indy restart, yes, it was terrible. Goodyear may have been able to pass Arie, maybe not. But as he said, he "would have liked the chance".

[Turn13]

Originally posted by Megatron
The evidence that T13 has presented could conclude that...the IRL SCORING SYSTEM IS TERRIBLE. Why have we never heard about this "dash light VS track light" before? The same reason that the IRL mandated the "three chassis manufacutrers" rule out of the blue to block anyone from actually trying to unify the sport with a common formula? What rules will be made up in the future to suit the Speedway?

The IRL should have known that such a stituation could arise. Discouraging a race back to the yellow, trying to "decide" who would be in front at any given point in the track, and figuring in the complex dash light VS track lights, it is a blunder waiting to present itself. Its just like their ridiculous yellow flag policy at Indy before a restart which made the IRL drivers look like they needed training wheels. They try so hard to control the race that they mess it up.

"stituation" I like that ;)

Meg, do you have any idea what system is in place at, say, a CART race at Long Beach or Fontana, and can you compare it's operation here?

The system isn't THAT complicated: See the yellow, call the yellow, lights and signals go on. It all occurs within seconds, and is usually considered instantaneous- I guess nobody ever tried to split the hairs so finely before. Could it be more synchronized, and "telemetric"? Sure. Is it anywhere else? I wonder.

I've heard of the in-dash light before, but I admit I pay more attention. It should also be familiar to all the participants, as they go over it and sign off on it.

[Manson]

I've seen in car yellow lights before, in Modifieds!

If they just went back to the last completed lap before the yellow, there would be no controversy. Same for NASCAR. Their race back to the line is a joke as they are making bargains on who to let have their lap back. That, and it's dangerous but when has NECKCAR worried about that?

[RiverRunner]

T-13,Fontana has Yellow lights installed along the track and at Long Beach they hve flag stations all along the track.
It's very simple in CART,there are no supplemental rules.
A single yellow flag at any particular station on a road course means a local yellow and two yellow flags mean a full course yellow.
Yellow lights on the oval means full caution.
Now,do you want to drag F-1 into the irl's mess as well?
i don't suggest that mind you....

[Turn13]

RR, are the lights synchronized? Wth each other? The flags too? How is that possible? Tied into telemetry? How often are the cars' positions electronically marked? How are the cars' positions placed in the event of a yellow? In the event of a very close yellow?

What is the average elapsed time between: the accident and the call for a yellow; the call for a yellow and the display of the first flag or light; the subsequent display of all lights, flags, and pit signs?

Do you think that in-dash lights are a bad idea? Any merit as far as safety? (Note: I can name a few incidents where a second or two earlier warning would have made all the difference. I also know that when drivers are wheel to wheel the in-dash light is the only one they see.)

I know you know I pretty much knew you'd be the one to post the intitial info.

I'm also interested in investigating Laguna Seca's track condition / warning system in detail, in person. C'mon, you can afford it. I don't drink much. And I am practically mute in person.

[RiverRunner]

RR, are the lights synchronized? Wth each other? The flags too? How is that possible? Tied into telemetry? How often are the cars' positions electronically marked? How are the cars' positions placed in the event of a yellow? In the event of a very close yellow?

What is the average elapsed time between: the accident and the call for a yellow; the call for a yellow and the display of the first flag or light; the subsequent display of all lights, flags, and pit signs?


Why is this suddenly a CART topic?
Check with Racer Mike on your forum,he's a flagman for CART races.


Do you think that in-dash lights are a bad idea? Any merit as far as safety? (Note: I can name a few incidents where a second or two earlier warning would have made all the difference. I also know that when drivers are wheel to wheel the in-dash light is the only one they see.)

I personally don't see the need for them,that's what pit comm is for.Frankly,light or no light it all depends on the uncanny ability of drivers to avoid an accident right in front of them.

I'm also interested in investigating Laguna Seca's track condition / warning system in detail, in person. C'mon, you can afford it. I don't drink much. And I am practically mute in person.

That race has already been run and seeing as next year it is likely to fall smack dab in the middle of River season agaib I doubt I'll be attending.I didn't this year as I was on Lake Mead at the time.
As for Long Beach,mebbe I'll spring for yer ticket,mebbe not.You'll be able to make a good recon there as my tikkys are right behind the flag station,but then again I know you detest street racin'.
I kinda like it,particularly as my seats are in the front row right over a well traveled walkway that has a premium view of some dandy cleavage.

[Turn13]

Originally posted by RiverRunner

Why is this suddenly a CART topic?

I keep hearing about these supposed shortcomings, thought it might be interesting to have something to compare it to. A control set, if you will, or maybe a little perpective enhancement.

Do you think that in-dash lights are a bad idea? Any merit as far as safety? (Note: I can name a few incidents where a second or two earlier warning would have made all the difference. I also know that when drivers are wheel to wheel the in-dash light is the only one they see.)

I personally don't see the need for them,that's what pit comm is for.Frankly,light or no light it all depends on the uncanny ability of drivers to avoid an accident right in front of them.

Coming around blind curves, or even big wide oval ones at speed, and / or when running wheel to wheel, as I said, those lights can give crucial seconds earlier warning. That is, if you don't ignore them. Apparently, PT's pit comm didn't bother to tell him, either, or he ignored that, too.

Thanks for the LB / LS update. Some street races I like, some I don't, but I'll admit I'm a contrarian who gave Cleveland two chances and didn't like it. Houston I probably wouldn't even watch on TV Gimme M-O, Elkhart Lake, or just a chance just once in my life to see the world's most exciting racing form at Watkins Glen again...

[Locai]

Well, I've read Robin Miller's take on the whole thing and I completely agree with him...and I'm not even going to get into who was in the lead when the yellow light came on.

Tony George said the appeal was not accepted because the decision by race control wasn't appeallable. Well, if it wasn't appeallable then why the hell did it take him 3 weeks to decide that? Say that right after the race and the case is closed. Instead, it makes it look like Tracy actually did win and this was just so that the IRL could "save face". And, once again, it makes Tony George look like a complete idiot.

My one question is whether or not Barry Green has the right to file suit against Tony George over this. The last thing that the IRL and the Indy 500 need is to get dragged through court.

On top of all this, they had yet another controversy on the restart at the end of the Kansas City race. Now Sam Hornish is upset at the race officials. He's already been talking about jumping to NASCAR. That's just what the IRL needs...to lose the one legit driver that they have developed to NASCAR.

[Buford]

It is an invitational event that has no more obligation to be fair or legitimate than a WWF wrestling match. If you accept the invitation, you sign a paper saying you will not sue over the results. Basically Tony George can write any script he wants and if you do not wish to follow that script, you cannot compete because you signed a paper saying you would.

[Jerry Lee]

Originally posted by stevew


If I recall, Arie's "What the f..." question was picked up live on the ABC TV race coverage. On the local replay later that evening I heard "What the (bleep) are they doing"...

Classic.

Yes and I have that wav sitting on my computer.

"It's yellow out here. It's green again. What the F... are they doing?"

[Turn13]

Originally posted by Locai
On top of all this, they had yet another controversy on the restart at the end of the Kansas City race. Now Sam Hornish is upset at the race officials. He's already been talking about jumping to NASCAR. That's just what the IRL needs...to lose the one legit driver that they have developed to NASCAR.

Mmm, not any more, Locai - despite early reports when the driver was hot and the team was, ah, confused, Panther Racing says they have no problem whatsoever with the restart at KC. My contacts with this team a pretty good. It was just a case of the driver making a mistake, and the team misjudging the call. Happens all the time. Well, at least at KC and Indy. It just comes with the close racing, I suppose.

As far as Buford's post about the invitational nature of the Indy 500- Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Montoya, among many others, must think TG is a very good script writer.

The facts remain, and the facts support Barnhart's decision. Of course, if Tracy and Green were saying about CART the things they're saying about the IRL, there'd be fines to pay

[Buford]

For the majority of the racing public as well as the press, who do not live in a god-forsaken corn field and parrot every lie and farcical babble uttered by the home town brain burnout, the guy who was in the lead when the yellow light came on, wins the race. Whoever it happened to be. We know who was in the lead when the yellow light came on, on the fence. The only one that we know came on at the same time for all competitors. It is an open and shut case of fraud, just like the IRL has been from day one. Lies piled on top of more lies.

[Zmeej]

Buford

[Turn13]

Buford said, "The only one that we know came on at the same time for all competitors."

He seems to have forgotten: "Note that Green admits that Helio was in the lead when the call was made and when the in-dash light comes on in Helio's telemetry. Green's argument, basically, was that everything BUT the single track light in the (rather inconclusive) video should be ignored."

The same procedure applies to all competitors, at all IRL events. Care to explain how it is any different at any other event? Who makes the call, and how is it made, anywhere else, in any other event, in the case of two competitors vying for the same position, Buford?

Furthermore, while there is reasonable dispute about whether or not the yellow light you are referring to appears, or even when, the same video stream also clearly shows the yellow pit flag displayed with Helio in the lead. At no time does the video show PT in the lead with a green light displayed.

[Buford]

Baloney. They have shown it numerous times on Las Vegas TV. It is not the ABC video. It is the ESPN video and it very clearly shows the light come on, after Tracy nosed ahead. Your boy Sniffy even said that in his smokescreen report, but then added Helio was closer to the starting line because he was on the inside of the track. At any other race, or any other time, where the officials placed the cars would not be so critical because when the green returned there would be another chance for the guy placed behind. This time it meant the race. The drivers cannot be expected to see the flag at the starting line when they are in turn 3. They can only be expected to slow down when the yellow is displayed where they can see it. The ESPN video does not show any flag displayed, it shows the passing sequence and the fence light.

Before your smoke and mirror show argument was the dash light argument. When that was blown out by the video in Al Jrs car showing his light coming on AFTER the fence light, now it has swithed to the 5th different argument. Now the flag a mile away, that could not be seen by the leaders is now what is important. Anything to perpetuate the fraud eh? Guess what, nobody is buying it outside of Marion County and probably less than half of them there from what I have read on various forums. Only the true bootlickers can defend this abomination on the history of this sport.

[Turn13]

ESPN gets their videos from ABC, don't they?

At any rate, the yellow had already reached Helio's in-dash, and he let off the gas - while leading. Supported by the telemetry, and within the rules. After the call for the yellow on the race control radio- also covered in the rules, and agreed to in the drivers' meeting by Team Green. I've seen you and others twice refer to not only the video but also telemetry that supposedly supports PT's pass- I've seen no telemetry referred to as supporting this; the telemetry supports Helio.

You also avoided my question, Buford - Care to explain how the yellow flag procedure is any different at any other event? Who makes the call, and how is it made, anywhere else, in any other event, in the case of two competitors vying for the same position?

It was very close, but I don't see anything to support taking the win away from Helio, and giving it to someone else.

[Buford]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turn13
[B]ESPN gets their videos from ABC, don't they?

No - different video.
==============================

At any rate, the yellow had already reached Helio's in-dash, and he let off the gas - while leading.

Not what he said after the race as posted elsewhere. Only what he said the following day after he had time to talk to PR people or lawyers.
===================================
Supported by the telemetry, and within the rules. After the call for the yellow on the race control radio- also covered in the rules, and agreed to in the drivers' meeting by Team Green.

The lights on the dash came on at different cars at different times. Calls on radios may or may not be heard. They may already be talking. There may be static. Sarah's radio didn't work all day. The only true yellow, and has always been is the one on the fence. it is the only one stationary, that is the same for everybody. Even when they forget to turn it off when they wave the green, which the IRL has already done.
=============================
I've seen you and others twice refer to not only the video but also telemetry that supposedly supports PT's pass- I've seen no telemetry referred to as supporting this; the telemetry supports Helio.

It says that where? Green said after the race he had telemetry that said otherwise.
==============================

You also avoided my question, Buford - Care to explain how the yellow flag procedure is any different at any other event? Who makes the call, and how is it made, anywhere else, in any other event, in the case of two competitors vying for the same position?
--------------------------------
I didn't avoid it at all. It is the usual Lemming reading comprehension problem.

"At any other race, or any other time, where the officials placed the cars would not be so critical because when the green returned there would be another chance for the guy placed behind. This time it meant the race."
========================================

It was very close, but I don't see anything to support taking the win away from Helio, and giving it to someone else.

Other than the fact that Tracy was ahead when the yellow came out, I don't either. And I would feel the exact same way if the cars were reversed. But then there would be no question of still another in a decade of frauds by Tony George, because the right guy would have been ahead when the yellow came out and all would be well in Bumpkinland.

[Turn13]

I believe it's the same video source (ABC), just a different camera. But no matter- ABC had more camperas than anyone else, and that evidence was used in the hearing. Still no green light for the Green Team car.

"At any other race, or any other time, where the officials placed the cars would not be so critical because when the green returned there would be another chance for the guy placed behind. This time it meant the race."

I'm talking about this same situation, at any other race. Let's hear your answer.