33 replies to this topic

[The Fazz]

HHF to me is an enigma. Prior to his stint at Williams he was touted as a Schumi-beater. At Williams he was practically outshone by Jacques, and made to look like a weak link. Then at Jordan alongside Hill, he started to look great again. But when Trulli joined Jordan, HHF looked like a has been. Now at he is doing wonders at Arrows. What is up with HHF - he can't seem to make up his mind whether to be a class driver or a journeyman.

Looking simplisticly at the form book (Trulli & Button links), had HHF stayed with Jordan, he may have been outclassed by Fisico. But he had some superb drives in the Arrows that shouldn't be where it is at the moment. Is the Arrows a great chassis with a good engine? Is HHF a good driver? Should EJ have kept HHF?

[Ghostrider]

Fretzen is somewhat of an enigma. He seems to be superfast when he is confident in the team and towards his teammate. But when he loose that confidence, his performances seem to really suffer and he gets a little moody. Don't know really why EJ fired him, but from the outside it looks like a mistake that has hurt Jordan so far at least.

[Schuting Star]

I've never thought that much of Frentzen over a full season. He did well in 1999 but apart from that he is too inconsistent. He has some great drives but never seems to be able to put together a string of good performances even allowing for car reliability. He was thought to be faster than Schumacher before F1 but I don't think he's shown evidence of that in F1.

His bad time at Williams rather defined him for me, he seems to need his confidence boosted by others rather than having confidence in himself; I think that's his ultimate weakness and where he loses out to the Michaels and Juans in F1.

[stuck-in-first-gear]

Thanks God that Tom is such a luvvable character...

[tillster]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Fretzen is somewhat of an enigma. He seems to be superfast when he is confident in the team and towards his teammate. But when he loose that confidence, his performances seem to really suffer and he gets a little moody. Don't know really why EJ fired him, but from the outside it looks like a mistake that has hurt Jordan so far at least.

Ghostrider, I agree with you on the last part about Jordan.

However, think back to last weekend. Can you name any driver, or quite frankly, any human being, who would have confidence in their team if they heard the verdict of the high-courrt judge? or you personally had to pay for the rent of a test track?

Before his engine chuffed up, HHF was driving the bollocks of his car and was easily faster than the BAR's on pace in the wet, so a points finshed looked very possible indeed.

As for all this enigma stuff, my own view is that he is not as hard nosed and bad-ass as MS, but he's not in the "what the hell happened to him today" class of the 1995 Hill. And perhaps he does need a reasurring boss, but he is far from the first driver to fit into that category, and there've been plenty of WDC's who need the occasional kiss on the cheek

Having the occasional off day doesn't make him an enigma. If that was the case all the grid bar perhaps two or three drivers would be enigma's

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by tillster
Having the occasional off day doesn't make him an enigma. If that was the case all the grid bar perhaps two or three drivers would be enigma's

Of course not, but compare Jordan in 2000 to Jordan 2001. HHF and Trulli was very evenly matched all year in qual in 2000. In 2001, HHF was 1-10 something when he got fired. A remarkable difference. But Fisi and Frentzen would have been a great combo at Jordan. So great.

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by Ghostrider


Of course not, but compare Jordan in 2000 to Jordan 2001. HHF and Trulli was very evenly matched all year in qual in 2000. In 2001, HHF was 1-10 something when he got fired. A remarkable difference. But Fisi and Frentzen would have been a great combo at Jordan. So great.

I agree - HHF/Fisi would have been a good combination.

I read that in 01 - Jordan started developing the car to suit Trulli's qualifying style. This affected HHF greatly as the car was brilliant in qualifying for Trulli but would go backwards in the race.

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by gerry nassar
I agree - HHF/Fisi would have been a good combination.
I read that in 01 - Jordan started developing the car to suit Trulli's qualifying style. This affected HHF greatly as the car was brilliant in qualifying for Trulli but would go backwards in the race.

Might be some truth in that, their suspension and weight-transfer or whatever it was last year, certainly seemed to suit qualifying more than race, a bit like Williams today, but to a much larger extent. Jordan this year seems more suited to race conditions, that is usually the case in Fisi's cars, don't know if he has any influence on that, but during his Benetton days the car was always better during the race than qual. Of course, this year it is also the tyre factor.

I think a team like Toyota should snap Frentzen up. A fast guy with good development skills. And a guy who has won races as well.

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by Ghostrider


Might be some truth in that, their suspension and weight-transfer or whatever it was last year, certainly seemed to suit qualifying more than race, a bit like Williams today, but to a much larger extent. Jordan this year seems more suited to race conditions, that is usually the case in Fisi's cars, don't know if he has any influence on that, but during his Benetton days the car was always better during the race than qual. Of course, this year it is also the tyre factor.

I think a team like Toyota should snap Frentzen up. A fast guy with good development skills. And a guy who has won races as well.

True. Toyota need a fast and experienced driver like Frentzen to help develop the car and lead the team aswell as a young charger who can lead the team into the future. Frentzen was rumoured to be in talks with Toyota last year - so you never know!?

[maclaren]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Fretzen is somewhat of an enigma. He seems to be superfast when he is confident in the team and towards his teammate. But when he loose that confidence, his performances seem to really suffer and he gets a little moody. Don't know really why EJ fired him, but from the outside it looks like a mistake that has hurt Jordan so far at least.

Agree, it seems like HHF becomes the faster the slower teammate he has

[The Fazz]

But what about the possibility that HHF is merely Joe Average, but the Arrows is a fine handling car? I mean, even Bernoldi managed to overtake Schumi on merit once... and we all know how mediocre Bernoldi is. If that is the case, GIVE FISICO AN ARROWS!!!!

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by The Fazz
But what about the possibility that HHF is merely Joe Average, but the Arrows is a fine handling car? I mean, even Bernoldi managed to overtake Schumi on merit once... and we all know how mediocre Bernoldi is. If that is the case, GIVE FISICO AN ARROWS!!!!

Hey, don't scare me with this talk about Fisi and Arrows.

Actually if Fisi hadn't signed for Jordan he was on his way to Arrows for this season. Even Jordan is a better choice than Arrows, so in that aspect Fisi for once did a wise career choice.

Bernoldi is not slow either by the way.

[maclaren]

Originally posted by The Fazz
But what about the possibility that HHF is merely Joe Average, but the Arrows is a fine handling car? I mean, even Bernoldi managed to overtake Schumi on merit once... and we all know how mediocre Bernoldi is. If that is the case, GIVE FISICO AN ARROWS!!!!

Well, if Bernoldi is mediocre, the Frentzen is not doing badly beating him left and right

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by maclaren

Well, if Bernoldi is mediocre, the Frentzen is not doing badly beating him left and right

HHF is thus slightly better than mediocre... which is something I'm trying to validate.

[mhferrari]

But HHF was a Schumacher beater before they were in F1.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by mhferrari
But HHF was a Schumacher beater before they were in F1.

I read a quote once by the guy who said HHF was better than Schumacher before they came to F1. He went on to say later that at the time he made the comment it was true. But the HHF was at or near his maximum potential as a driver and Schumacher wasn't even close to scratching the surface of his potential. The guy expected Schumacher to eventually outclass HHF.

[Rene]

Originally posted by tifoso

I read a quote once by the guy who said HHF was better than Schumacher before they came to F1. He went on to say later that at the time he made the comment it was true. But the HHF was at or near his maximum potential as a driver and Schumacher wasn't even close to scratching the surface of his potential. The guy expected Schumacher to eventually outclass HHF.

It also has to do with a test of an F1 car which both HHF and MS attended...I don't remember the exact details, but initially HHF beat him, then MS came back and was quicker...I have the article at home I will post it later...

[mhferrari]

Originally posted by tifoso

I read a quote once by the guy who said HHF was better than Schumacher before they came to F1. He went on to say later that at the time he made the comment it was true. But the HHF was at or near his maximum potential as a driver and Schumacher wasn't even close to scratching the surface of his potential. The guy expected Schumacher to eventually outclass HHF.

I was just that the thread started with the statement that HHF was touted as a Schumacher beater.

[Supa Fly]

HHF spotted and complained about an aero imbalance in the '97 williams, but was ignored due to his new status in the team. JV on the otherhand didnt complain, but had a significant mid season slump...after FW listened to HHF and fixed the problem they continued their winning ways...is that an indication hes a good tester?

in regard to HHFs dip last year, and firing from jordan...according to an article in f1 racing (with good sources) EJ got smitten by trullis quali results, and basically (he and several key engineers) forced HHF to race with trullis setups...which are reputed to be totally undriveable in a race, theyre one lap specials...they didnt let hhf use his own setups! hence the arguments...if thats true (and it sounds plausible) i think EJ should have fired himself...maybe thats harsh...but trulli isnt doing anything for me this year, and hhf comprehensively outdrove him at silverstone...(bernie tv showed so )

[janusa]

I thik HHF has a confidence problem. Where as most drivers get on with their job. HH needs to be cuttled to get the best out of him.

JanUsa

[tania_walesuk]

HHF is able to set up a bad car better than is expected and live with bad handling by finding a cure better than most, also just good with managing a car thats hard to steer.
When the car is easier to set-up others then find this is easy as Heinz thus equalling out.
Trulli was hotter over one lap but i think thats because he was desperate to be so more so than Frentzen it meant more to him a the time as Frentzen was the established star.

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Schuting Star
His bad time at Williams rather defined him for me, he seems to need his confidence boosted by others rather than having confidence in himself; I think that's his ultimate weakness and where he loses out to the Michaels and Juans in F1.

Bingo. HHF's best performances were at Sauber (cuddly team), Jordan (during a cuddly period) and, bizarrely, Arrows (perhaps he's just **** scared of Tom).

[UPRC]

HHF is a great driver... Has anyone ever cracked him?


I remember reading in a post in this forum about a year ago that "Heinz Harald would be world championship material if only he was more consistant."

Agree with that?

[Zawed]

It's a source of frustration for me that HHF has'nt achieved more than he has. He can be so capable some days and not even there on other days. He seems to be driving fantastically well this year for Arrows, I just hope the team overcomes it's financial woes.

[UPRC]

I can't help but wonder.. .If Arrows goes, is HHF's future doomed?

[The Fazz]

Having read some of the stuff above particularly with regards to setups and development work, HHF would be a real asset at Toyota... provided of course that his voice is heard clearly above the din.

[Supa Fly]

anyone remember '99? championship contender until his engine died at the nurb (1st corner, leading the pack )

[Ryan Mas]

99 Was a brilliant year.

Also: Bernoldi is a bloody fast driver, remember how comprehensively he outqualified Jos during his first season? How many drivers can do that, beat a very experienced team mate on tracks that they have never raced on before.

HEINZ seems to do well in substandard cars, he seems to like being the underdog. Getting 3 wins in a Jordan, Getting a PROST to qualify 4th, consistantly racing in the top 10 in an Arrows (On lap times he was looking good for a podium at silverstone). Heinz is one of the great drivers, he just needs to be shown a bit of the dedication that he shows to a team. He recently anounced that he would not leave Arrows if a better drive came along (just like prost). This indicates that he would like some consistancy, unfortunately with Toms history with drivers...

[The Fazz]

Originally posted by Ryan Mas
Also: Bernoldi is a bloody fast driver, remember how comprehensively he outqualified Jos during his first season? How many drivers can do that, beat a very experienced team mate on tracks that they have never raced on before.

But IIRC, Jos (the boss) outraced him almost everywhere. In qualifying they were about equal. But then, this is Jos you're talking about... not Schumi.

[Ryan Mas]

He was still only a rooky with hardly any experience racing against a VERY experienced team mate.

[tifoso]

Originally posted by Rene
It also has to do with a test of an F1 car which both HHF and MS attended...I don't remember the exact details, but initially HHF beat him, then MS came back and was quicker...I have the article at home I will post it later...

Rene, I've read that too. But I think it's still all part and parcel of where each driver was in maximizing their own potential as drivers when that test took place.

[jpf]

Originally posted by Jackman
Bingo. HHF's best performances were at Sauber (cuddly team), Jordan (during a cuddly period) and, bizarrely, Arrows (perhaps he's just **** scared of Tom).

I think part of it is just that Arrows are perennially in such trouble, and they view HHF as a proven racer with wins, etc. so the team probably feels lucky to have him, and that makes him feel all warm and fuzzy inside, hence the impressive performances. There seemed to be a lot of enthusiasm apparent in team quotes just before and early in the season.

[San Fran Schumi]

I think HHF is mentally weak, and way too inconsistant. Bernoldis doing ok in an Arrows for a bunny.

Hey Fazz, long time no see

[badri]

Rene: It also has to do with a test of an F1 car which both HHF and MS attended...I don't remember the exact details, but initially HHF beat him, then MS came back and was quicker...I have the article at home I will post it later...

Rene, would a little reminder be ok?
Looking forward to reading this artcle. Much thanks in advance.