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Karl Oppitzhauser - F1 driver or not?


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#1 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 07:04

...There is a very interesting F1 story that I've known recently. In 1976 a certain Austrian racing team, Sports Cars of Austria, bought or leased a March 761 for the Austrian driver Karl Oppitzhauser. They had an intention to take part in Austrian GP that year and declared Karl as a participant. However, he wasn't allowed to take part even in practice as he had never driven a formula racing car!

I have two questions concerning this story. First, does anyone know something about it? Second, can Karl be considered to be a F1 driver and be included in F1 drivers list? And perhaps someone has an extra information about Oppitzhauser?

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#2 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 07:11

Alexey

He drove the car at Brands Hatch two weeks later in a Shellsport race. As he is part of F1 history, I think he belongs on the list.

See http://www.oldracing...asp?CarID=761/4.

Allen

#3 Marcel Schot

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 07:22

grandprix.com says "Two other locals Karl Oppitzhauser (who had bought a March 761) and Otto Stuppacher (who had acquired an old Tyrrell) had entered but were refused the necessary clearances because of lack of experience." (here )

Here is says that he's an Austrian motorsporter who had his driverslicense since 1962. In 1976 he wanted to start the Austrian Grand Prix with the #40 March 761, but was disallowed because of lack of experience.

His official site says he drove his March 761 on Brands Hatch.

He also gets a mention in F1 Rejects' biography of Otto Stupacher .

#4 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 07:31

Allen and Marcel,

Many thanks for your answers, I haven't thought I should get the necessary information as soon as it happened in fact! :)

By the way, Allen, Darren Galpin told me that you have some F5000 data at your disposal. Is it true?

#5 Kuwashima

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 08:55

For what it's worth, we do plan to do a profile of Karl Oppitzhauser. He entered, and that's good enough for us (it also allows us to do Jorge de Bagration!).

Here's a picture of Karl O in 1976, next to Otto Stuppacher (he's the one on the right) and his March. The pic is taken from the Austrian GP, where both were refused permission to race. IIRC, the pic was courtesy of Marcor.

#6 Rob G

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 14:02

Kuwashima, I'm trying desperately to see your pic, but I can't connect to your site. :(

#7 Kuwashima

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 15:22

Rob G, hmmm that's not good :( Maybe the server's temporairily being a pain...
Never mind, I'll sort it out later, for the time being here's the pic:

Posted Image

(Sorry to those with slow connections, small screens etc, I tried being tricky and posting the URL above but it seems to have backfired!! :blush: )

#8 Rob G

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 15:32

Thanks! :up:

One thing, though. In your first post you stated the photo is of the two men and a March, while in the photo it's a Tyrrell. Is it captioned as a March on your website?

#9 Kuwashima

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 15:53

No it's all correct on the website, the error in my post above is simple brain fade on my behalf. Thanks for pointing it out. I had March on the brain becuase that's what Oppitzhauser tried to enter. The car in the pic is, of course, Stuppacher's Tyrrell 007 Ford. :drunk:

#10 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 July 2002 - 18:58

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
By the way, Allen, Darren Galpin told me that you have some F5000 data at your disposal. Is it true?

I have some. It depends what you want. Have a look at the F5000 section of my site and see if that's helpful.

Allen

#11 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 13:15

Allen,

I've visited your site. It's really what I wanted to find! Many thanks! :)

#12 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 17:34

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Allen,

I've visited your site. It's really what I wanted to find! Many thanks! :)

Delighted to have been of help.

Allen

#13 philippe charuest

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Posted 16 July 2002 - 20:32

that otto stupacher with the tyrrell 007 was at canadian gp(mosport) and at the usgp at watkins glen in 1976 , i never saw a f1 so badly driven in my whole life ,no need to say that he didnt qualified .definititly not a f1 driver

#14 Alexey Rogachev

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 08:28

Originally posted by philippe charuest
that otto stupacher with the tyrrell 007 was at canadian gp(mosport) and at the usgp at watkins glen in 1976 , i never saw a f1 so badly driven in my whole life ,no need to say that he didnt qualified .definititly not a f1 driver


Stuppacher also took part in Italian GP in 1976, and he didn't qualify there. However, he took part in F1 World Championship GP nevertheless like many other drivers who had taken part in F1 GP's despite their lack (or total absence) of skill!

#15 Allen Brown

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 13:21

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev
Stuppacher also took part in Italian GP in 1976, and he didn't qualify there.

Wasn't Stuppacher the chap who initially failed to qualify, went home and then got promoted onto the grid because of a withdrawal or a disqualification? So technically a DNS not a DNQ.

Or was that somebody else? I really should try to do this when I'm at work!

Allen

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 13:52

According to previous posts on TNF, that's true...

It was mentioned on the thread about his death, as I recall.

#17 Kuwashima

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 16:16

Hmmm... from our profile of Otto:

At Monza, for the Italian GP, it was abundantly clear that Stuppacher was somewhat out of his depth. Out of 29 entrants, of which 26 should have started, Jacques Laffite took pole in his Ligier with a time of 1:41.35. Stuppacher was slowest of all, with a 1:55.22, some 13.87 seconds slower. Even Arturo Merzario in the hopeless Wolf-Williams, who was just ahead of the Austrian, managed a 1:47.31.

But as fate would have it, both 'Little Art' and Stuppacher should have started the race! For when McLaren drivers James Hunt and Jochen Mass, plus Penske driver John Watson had their times disallowed for fuel irregularities, Merzario and Stuppacher were bumped up to 25th and 26th. But here's the thing: the previous night, Otto, disheartened by his DNQ, had taken the Saturday evening flight back home! Come Sunday, he was already back in Vienna, licking his wounds, and unable to make it back in time for the start.

In fact, in the end Stuppacher would have started 25th, because Merzario was withdrawn before the race started. Rumours circulated that Arturo had been persuaded to withdraw thanks to some money from Penske, for as a result of both Merzario and Stuppacher being absent, Hunt and Mass were allowed back in at the rear of the grid, and so too Watson. Thus in the end 27 cars started, after all.



#18 ensign14

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 17:15

There was a 110% rule for qualifying times in force, which could be waived by a unanimous vote (as for the Osellas at South Africa in 1983, when 26 cars turned up for 26 spots but Corrado Fabi and Piercarlo Ghinzani were outside 110% of the pole time, but the teams allowed them to start). Otto was WAYYY outside this. Was the rule in force?

(Yes, I know McLaren and Penske were as well, but presumably the other teams allowed them in - especially Ferrari, concerned at losing championship status for a race in which Hunt was unlikely to score.)

#19 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 17 July 2002 - 17:47

Originally posted by Alexey Rogachev

I have two questions concerning this story. First, does anyone know something about it? Second, can Karl be considered to be a F1 driver and be included in F1 drivers list? And perhaps someone has an extra information about Oppitzhauser?


I don't have Oppitzhauser on my list, such as I don't Londono-Bridge, although that's just my own criteria as Karl didn't actually start in qualifying. Oppitzhauser is still well & runs a garage in Bruck, where he was born , oh some 50 plus years ago.

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#20 Gabrci

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Posted 12 April 2021 - 22:34

Picking up this thread a mere 19 years later, there is an interesting interview with Mr. Oppitzhauser from 2019 here: https://www.f1forgot...by-roman-klemm/

 

He says: 

 

 

In the mid-1970s you certainly were a known entity in touring cars. Your planned entry into Formula 1, however, had surprised many. To what extend were you a professional racing driver and what experience did you have with single seaters?

I had 14 seasons of successful racing behind me then, and was a complete professional under contract with the factory supported Schnitzer-BMW team. People forget that my career started in single seaters. Already in 1962 I was racing Formula V on all our hills and airstrip circuits like Aspern, Innsbruck, or Zeltweg. In 1973 I did an entire season in Formula 3 with Lotus. In my opinion, I did have plenty of experience
 
How did you prepare? It was your home Grand Prix, after all.
After the Nürburgring and one week before our race, all the Formula 1 teams were testing at the Österreichring, because of the newly installed turn 1 chicane. I took part and all went very well. I had no problems with the car nor any other drivers, and my times were extremely competitive.

 

Wasn’t it strange for the autoclub to maneuver in this way against one of their own?
I knew that it was all about politics and of course money. Some timber salesman (Oppitzhauser does not refer to Binder in any other way) was there trying for a debut as well with Ensign Ford, and Raiffeisenbank paid the bill. I was clearly faster than him in testing and they were afraid that I would beat him in qualifying and get all the attention from local fans. 

 

 
What Formula 3 could that have been? An Austrian championship, if there was such a thing? 
 
Also does anyone happen have and reports or possibly even laptimes from the pre-race test where he mentions setting extremely competitive times? Thank you! 

Edited by Gabrci, 12 April 2021 - 22:34.


#21 Doug Nye

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 11:06

He does sound like quite a modest Austrian...

 

DCN



#22 ensign14

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 11:21

Says he swapped the 761 for a touring car with someone from Wörgl.  Gerhard Berger's home town...



#23 Mallory Dan

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 12:20

Full F3 season with Lotus in 1973?? Who's he kidding! 



#24 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 12:30

Full F3 season with Lotus in 1973?? Who's he kidding! 

Maybe he knows where the 73's are kept hidden?



#25 MCS

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 14:11

Maybe he knows where the 73's are kept hidden?

I know where they are.  There are two and enough spares to build a third, unless something has changed.

 

Did Herr Oppitzhauser perhaps race a Lotus 69 in European races?  Although like Mallory Dan, I can see no evidence.



#26 Michael Ferner

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 14:34

Full F3 season with Lotus in 1973?? Who's he kidding! 

 

Who? This "journalist", Mr. Roman Klemm and the poor visitors of his website who will read this tosh without even a minimum of information vetting. But (good to know!) you can support the site by donating!!  :rolleyes:



#27 arttidesco

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 19:58

 

 

Did Herr Oppitzhauser perhaps race a Lotus 69 in European races?  Although like Mallory Dan, I can see no evidence.

 

Our man Karl most certainly did, not in 1973 as he mis remembered, but the following year on 19th May he started an F3 race in a Lotus 69 at Havifov Senov, in which he was not classified as a finisher :cat: More of Herr Oppitzhauser's racing career details can be found here :- http://www.euromonta...&id_driver=2334


Edited by arttidesco, 13 April 2021 - 21:15.


#28 ensign14

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 21:38

It's an enduring mystery why someone who came 76th at the Šternberk hillclimb in 1975 was not welcome at a Grand Prix.



#29 arttidesco

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Posted 13 April 2021 - 21:50

It's an enduring mystery why someone who came 76th at the Šternberk hillclimb in 1975 was not welcome at a Grand Prix.

 

Sounds like a potential new thread who was the least qualified driver to start a Championship Grand Prix ;-)



#30 Gabrci

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 07:22

Thank you very much for the responses everyone! Interesting, I really hope those pre-GP test times will surface at one point. Perhaps we will also learn more about his F3 season, there might have been smaller races of which we have no record where he did do a full season, I mean if he owned the car he might have as well raced it somewhere...



#31 Stephen W

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 07:34

Alexey

He drove the car at Brands Hatch two weeks later in a Shellsport race. As he is part of F1 history, I think he belongs on the list.

See http://www.oldracing...asp?CarID=761/4.

Allen

 

Sorry but as Karl never actually started a race I do not consider him a "F1 Driver". Taking part in practice or entering should not get you into the club!


Edited by Stephen W, 15 April 2021 - 07:35.


#32 Gabrci

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 19:32

Sorry but as Karl never actually started a race I do not consider him a "F1 Driver". Taking part in practice or entering should not get you into the club!

 

I think that's a matter of interpretation, for me anyone who took part in a practice session as a nominated race driver (so not as a third driver) like Kuwashima counts, however I don't think Mr. Oppitzhauser ever actually drove the car in Zeltweg. There is that  one and only photo I think from the pitlane where he is sitting in the March and Ronnie Peterson is standing in front of it, I don't think he ever actually entered the circuit though as his entry I believe had been rejected before first practice started. 



#33 opplock

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 21:55

Our man Karl most certainly did, not in 1973 as he mis remembered, but the following year on 19th May he started an F3 race in a Lotus 69 at Havifov Senov, in which he was not classified as a finisher :cat: More of Herr Oppitzhauser's racing career details can be found here :- http://www.euromonta...&id_driver=2334

 

These events are hillclimbs. 

 

For someone who set "extremely competitive times" in F1 testing his record in hillclimbs is underwhelming. His one outing with the March 761 resulted in times slower than several Alfa Suds.  

 

The older I get the faster I was? 



#34 arttidesco

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Posted 15 April 2021 - 22:58



These events are hillclimbs. 

 

For someone who set "extremely competitive times" in F1 testing his record in hillclimbs is underwhelming. His one outing with the March 761 resulted in times slower than several Alfa Suds.  

 

The older I get the faster I was? 

 

06ad582992eb88e66d44004c84a9d749.jpg

 

I agree 'most' of those venues are hillclimbs/sprint venues, but Havirov Senov is a circuit and the event I referred to does appear to have run on a proper circuit where a single seater race took place :- http://www.euromonta...race=5983&lng=1



#35 opplock

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:26

Oops. Havirov and Senov are towns near Ostrava in what is now the north east corner of Czech Republic. I don't recall any major F3 events being held behind Iron Curtain in 70s. On 19th May 1974 the European F3 circus were at Nurburgring for the Polifac Formel 3 Trophy Rennen.     



#36 ReWind

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:46

Just travel to Bruck an der Leitha, Niederösterreich, and buy his book.Oppitzhauser_gro%C3%9F.jpg
„Ich war schneller als Ronnie Peterson“ means „I was faster than Ronnie Peterson“



#37 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 08:55

Fantastic! When you see how guys like Josef Saibel or Dietmar Grugger were able to put a full minute on KO's F1 March in two runs of the Dobratsch driving mere Formula Vees (http://www.euromonta...d_race=87&lng=1), and this guy was faster than Ronnie Peterson - think of what Saibel or Grugger could have achieved if given the chance! Maybe we were lucky, because with bags of talent like that they would probably still be winning F1 world championships today with no one else in sight... and we all thought Schumacher or Hamilton dominance was boring!


Edited by Michael Ferner, 16 April 2021 - 08:59.


#38 ensign14

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 09:06

To be fair, Michael, last Sunday, when I drove to the Peak District, I too was faster than Ronnie.



#39 Sterzo

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 09:08

I am proud to have played a part in the history of Karl Oppitzhauser's distinguished F1 career. I was at the Brands Hatch Shellsport race, and crossed his name out in my programme when it was announced he hadn't qualified.



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#40 10kDA

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 11:10



#41 BRG

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 11:16

These events are hillclimbs. 

 

For someone who set "extremely competitive times" in F1 testing his record in hillclimbs is underwhelming. His one outing with the March 761 resulted in times slower than several Alfa Suds.  

 

The older I get the faster I was? 

To be fair, he does appear to have won an event outright at Piestany (in Sovenia?) before a crowd of 50,000 apparently.

http://www.euromonta..._race=644&lng=1

 

I am proud to have played a part in the history of Karl Oppitzhauser's distinguished F1 career. I was at the Brands Hatch Shellsport race, and crossed his name out in my programme when it was announced he hadn't qualified.

This makes you the forum's leading authority on the gentleman.  We expect a full menu of photographs, results and anecdotes.  Don't hold back!   ;)



#42 Gabrci

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 20:53

Just travel to Bruck an der Leitha, Niederösterreich, and buy his book.
„Ich war schneller als Ronnie Peterson“ means „I was faster than Ronnie Peterson“

 

I actually have a signed copy of that book and didn't even have to travel further than the post office for it! The book itself is really, really nice, big, heavy, printed on excellent quality paper and full of photos and stories. 

 

I do admire him for being such a proper, genuine racer for half a century and a very successful businessman. The F1 part though as we perhaps expect is not fully in line with what the records show. There is no mention of a pre-race weekend test in the book (unlike in the recent interview referenced above). He says entering the race went all right and he started and won two support races, with a BMW and a Ford Mexico. "On Friday in free practice for the Grand Prix I then drove the best time and was to general surprise faster than Ronnie Peterson". It's not fully clear to me whether he means best overall, his best time or what exactly, my understanding though based on all the other available information is that it appears he never even drove in that session in reality. He writes: On the next day (which would be Saturday) he was told that he misses two points to get the license. He was very disappointed, it was a real low blow. Hans Binder was much slower than him in practice but was allowed to start due to sponsors. Only in Brands Hatch did he drive another F1 race, in the Shellsport series that didn't count for the championship. In that race he finished 9th (the records and Sterzo say he did not qualify). 

 

There is also a copy of a period newspaper article in the book, which I assume I am not allowed to scan and post here for copyright reasons, but that is probably our best source of information. It is about a test at the Österreichring a week before the Brands Hatch race. To the Austrian GP it only refers to as "he was not allowed to start", without mentioning any participation, which is probably correct. It does say though that it was two drivers, one of them James Hunt, who refused to consent to his participation. There are a couple of photos showing the same scene as the only well-known photo of him sitting in the car with Peterson and Stuck standing next to the car, so the one photo that we (at least I certainly) thought was taken at the GP in the paddock/pitlane was in fact taken at this test, between the Austrian GP (15. August) and the Shellsport race (30. August). On one of the pictures the length of the pitlane is visible and it is completely empty, so it was certainly not during the race weekend. Peterson and Stuck are in racing overalls so it seems possibly March stayed on after the race for testing at the Österreichring with Peterson and Stuck, plus Oppitzhauser with is own car. There is also a quote from him in the article saying that he didn't buy the March for it to stay in the garage, which would back up what we think about the GP weekend. Peterson is quoted as saying "For the first time good", also backing that up. I'm a bit puzzled here to be honest, it seems Mr. Oppitzhauser either put this article in the book without reading it now, or seems not to have realized that it clashes with his memories. After some laps he was 4 seconds off Stuck's pace, got a bit quicker later but there is no mention of the final laptime. The article ends by quoting him as saying that if things go well in England, there are no hurdles to take part in the Italian GP at Monza. 

 

So to sum up, it seems he was refused entry for the GP, it is unclear whether him and/or the car were there at all as the photo widely considered to show him in the pitlane was in fact taken a week or so later. There was a test afterwards at the Österreichring with Peterson and Stuck where he did drive his March, being a few seconds off Stuck's pace. Then he went to Brands Hatch and did not qualify and that was it. There are a few photos from the test and from Brands Hatch but all show him in the pits or paddock, there seems to be no on-track photo at all. 

 

Despite his memories perhaps playing tricks with him 45 years after what was clearly a huge disappointment for him, I do recommend the book for those who understand some German, it is very nicely done by a bona fide lifelong racer and I thought was money well spent. 



#43 William Hunt

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:02

Fantastic! When you see how guys like Josef Saibel or Dietmar Grugger were able to put a full minute on KO's F1 March in two runs of the Dobratsch driving mere Formula Vees (http://www.euromonta...d_race=87&lng=1), and this guy was faster than Ronnie Peterson - think of what Saibel or Grugger could have achieved if given the chance! Maybe we were lucky, because with bags of talent like that they would probably still be winning F1 world championships today with no one else in sight... and we all thought Schumacher or Hamilton dominance was boring!

 

Not only that, he was slower in his F1 March as drivers in an Opel Kadet, Alfa Sud, Opel Commodore and VW Golf....



#44 William Hunt

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 22:49

Jezus Christ (who also was not an F1 driver).... I just discovered an interview he did for an Austrian news outlet. Full of the most blatant lies. This narcisistic liar should be exposed.

 

He claims:

- that he was a world champion (he claimed he won that title in 1980) & European champion Touring Cars.

- that he has done over 2000 races

- that he won at every circuit in Europe at least twice

- he said he switched to drive for Ferrari in 1995 but the way he says it it seems like Ferrari signed him. He didn't drive for Ferrari, he just bought one.

- claims that he since 30 years does 'skiing on the roof of a car' (very strange remark)

- claims that he broke a world record when he jumped over 29 cars in 1975 with a Peugeot

- claims to have participated  in F1 in 1976 & 1977 with his own F1 team but since 2 F1 drivers died during this period he decided to go to BMW where he stayed 25 years and won a European & World Championship Touring car title for them

https://www.noen.at/...auser-177130870


Edited by William Hunt, 07 October 2021 - 01:01.


#45 D-Type

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Posted 07 October 2021 - 12:53

One basic question is how do we define a "Formula 1 driver?".  I think it is someone who starts a Formula 1 race, including non- World Drivers' Championship races whether they were rounds of Championships such as the Aurora British Championship or the South African F1 Championship or freestanding events.  Merely entering should not count.  Practising and failing to qualify is a grey area - I think it also should not count..



#46 FLB

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Posted 07 October 2021 - 13:18

One basic question is how do we define a "Formula 1 driver?".  I think it is someone who starts a Formula 1 race, including non- World Drivers' Championship races whether they were rounds of Championships such as the Aurora British Championship or the South African F1 Championship or freestanding events.  Merely entering should not count.  Practising and failing to qualify is a grey area - I think it also should not count..

I once saw a Jackie Stewart interview where he made the distinction between championship (i.e. the Grandes Épreuves) and non-championship F1. It was made in the early 1970s, about François Cevert.

 

 

'When a Formula 1 driver becomes a Grand Prix driver...'


Edited by FLB, 07 October 2021 - 13:18.


#47 GazChed

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Posted 07 October 2021 - 14:27

Quite right FLB, anyone with enough money can buy a Formula One car and whether they race it, hillclimb it or just drive it round a private test track, they are then a Formula One driver. Until they race in a World Championship Grand Prix they are not Grand Prix drivers.

However there are the fantasists who insist they have raced this or raced that and who the average person in the street takes at face value and believes. But then one day they come across an Autosport TNF member...

#48 William Hunt

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 20:48

It's not just that he calls himself an F1 driver. What's mad is that he claims to have been a world & European champion touring cars, that he claims to have won at virtually every European circuit twice and that he makes it seem like he was employed by BMW and Ferrari.  I personally find this very disturbing.


Edited by William Hunt, 12 October 2021 - 00:21.


#49 Gabrci

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Posted 16 October 2021 - 18:48

One basic question is how do we define a "Formula 1 driver?". 

 

Good question that!

 

I would say anyone who

- was present (turned a wheel? Is there anyone who falls between?)

- in an official session (not pre-event test)

- for a World Championship Grand Prix (I say Grand Prix as opposed to just race to exclude Indianapolis - Indy definitely doesn't count in my view)

- as a nominated race driver (to exclude third drivers, Herr Uhlenhaut, etc.)

 

So for example:

- Kuwashima is in (although if in reality they always knew he was only going to do practice, it's very marginal - I mean what exactly did Binder happen to do at Fuji coincidentally?)

- Oppitzhauser is out (although to be 100% sure it would be good to know that his entry was refused before the event had started)

- Londoño-Bridge is out as by the first practice he had been denied a superlicense 

- de Dryver at Belgium 1978 would be a curious case. His proper DNQ a year earler clearly makes him a GP driver but I'm not sure whether he would be in or not based on only 1978 

- Ecclestone I'm not sure, he seems to be on the entry list, but then two Connaughts seem to be on the entry list as well

 

Probably there are more who are not clear, these were just a few examples I could think of off the top of my head. 



#50 ensign14

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Posted 17 October 2021 - 20:15

I think you can include third drivers as Formula 1 drivers.  They drove a Formula 1 car at a regular event.  But you can't call them world championship drivers as they were never part of the championship.  Similarly anyone who drove an F1 car at a non-title event is an F1 driver. 

 

The grey areas are people who drove F1 cars at non-F1 events, e.g. Formule Libre or hillclimbs.  I would not count them unless there had been a specific contemporary F1 class.